  Baselinepunk Member Username: Baselinepunk Post Number: 126 Registered: 03-2007 |
"If, God forbid, Chrysler goes under, it would also leave OC with a gigantic building that can easily be renovated into a convention center. They could turn the big office tower into a hotel, right on site!" An empty building/future convention center doesn't provide tax revenue. | ||
Bobby08 Member Username: Bobby08 Post Number: 144 Registered: 09-2008 |
Kahnman, you made my morning, lol | ||
Scooter2k7 Member Username: Scooter2k7 Post Number: 215 Registered: 10-2007 |
I wonder if Illitch came out today and said he will build a new stadium behind the Fox would change anything. Cobo could connect to the Joe. Merging the Joe and Cobo together would give more than enough space. Although I am not aware of the cost difference between renovation vs new construction. Also, if a new Shelby Township convention center opened and the township supervisior said Shelby Township residents get first crack at the jobs automatically he would be labeled a racist. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1274 Registered: 11-2003 |
The problem with the Illich plan is in this current economic climate, I don't think Illich could get the financing to build a new arena right now, at least not without public help, which the public is not exactly rolling in cash right now. | ||
Det_ard Member Username: Det_ard Post Number: 32 Registered: 02-2009 |
I'm can just imagine the announcement of a new convention center in Troy, followed by L. Brooks Patterson saying that it'll provide good jobs for Troy residents and "people who look like us" (pasty white) and majority-owned businesses. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1275 Registered: 11-2003 |
That is because L Brooks is smarted than that. He knows how to play politics and how to get things done for his county. For once his anger with CC is justified, which is pretty much the response from everybody. Of course Monica is too stubborn to admit she's wrong. | ||
Tkshreve Member Username: Tkshreve Post Number: 758 Registered: 07-2006 |
OK I officially have given up on the FBI coming in to save Detroit from Monica Conyers. What is so god damn silly is the fact that raw evidence was supplied to the public so long ago that she is corrupt, uncomprimising and officially insane. So instead of Detroiters riding her out of town, they sit by as she inherits a promotion and begins deconstructing the city piece by piece. How absurd. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1276 Registered: 11-2003 |
Point well made Tkshreve. FBI...please save us. Maybe we can get her to take another "medical leave." | ||
Tkshreve Member Username: Tkshreve Post Number: 759 Registered: 07-2006 |
Oh and she called on another Council Member to "Do yo job" at the meeting yesterday. HA! Where were you when the city was going through Kwamegate. Hiding under your covers with a tin foil hat on your head. She is, in every sense, the true description of a basketcase. | ||
Blksoul_x Member Username: Blksoul_x Post Number: 455 Registered: 06-2007 |
The Cobo plan is NOT dead. It's simply dead by the outsiders interpretation. We make it sound like the only event that goes on at Cobo Hall is the Auto Show. If the Auto Show leaves, then so be it...the truth is/was, the so-called 'losing of the Auto Show' was propaganda used by the out-siders as a weapon against the City to get the deal/plan past. Most are missing the fact that on many weekends through-out the year, there are a multitude of events to which the city offers at Cobo Hall for its citizens (In the past, I have worked in Cobo during many summers). I have witnessed the daily foot traffic in and around the building. I'm not sure of the inside details in the so-called Cobo Plan, but from a casual observation, the so-called plan would not be beneficial toward the future of the city if city residents have to share the monies with other non-tax paying sources, especially if the city itself can modify the building and sustain it with its own sources or resources allocated toward the city. Why in the world would we want to give share or give up on something that is as valuable as the Cobo Hall property. Heck, while were at it, we might as well give up Belle-Isle, Chene Park, Hart Plaza, Winter Blast, and the like. These are entities that bring people/money into our city. Why should the 'non-taxed' suburbanites be granted access to those monies? I believe most are caught on the fact that the Auto Show will leave Cobo. To be sure, there is/was NO guarantee that the Auto show would stay despite the so-called plan. Then, we would be left to share the revenue of other events.(cha-ching outsiders!)__go figure! I like the fact that Monica Conyers and the Council felt the need to preserve one of the cities more valuable sources. As Detroiter's we ought to understand that Detroit is ripe for the pickings due to our desperate state. To share out one of our most valuable pieces, would be negative toward the best interest in the future of our great City. In this case, It's ours, not yours! blksoul_atcha! We are the ones we have been waiting for! | ||
Det_ard Member Username: Det_ard Post Number: 33 Registered: 02-2009 |
The suburbs will get a large measure of control over Cobo soon. Either through an agreement with council or by default when the center's business drops off and the hotel and liquor tax expires and isn't renewed by suburbanites who've had enough of Detroit's merry band of idiots. Detroit can't really afford it now. It loses money and has lots of deferred maintenance. Take away the hotel and liquor tax money in 2015 and Detroit will be forced to either do a deal with the suburbs or shut it down. quote: Frankly, I don't know why the suburbs want anything to do with Cobo. They're on the hook for the maintenance, operating losses and they give up the ability to use hotel and liquor tax funds on some other priority all the way to 2039. They ought to be happy city council killed the deal. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 935 Registered: 01-2005 |
Blacksoul: you are sadly misinformed. The money-making events that pay rent to cobo, generate foot-traffic, restaurant tabs and hotel room use (which in turn allow the hotels to pay their city taxes and employee witholding taxes)have almost all already left for brighter places that are not patronage pits. Remember these? They used to meet here: UNITED AUTO WORKERS – SKILLED TRADES UAW CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY ACTION GROUP MATERIAL HANDLING INDUSTRY OF AMERICA AUTOMOTIVE AND TRANSPORTATION INTERIORS EXPO SOCIETY OF MANUFACTURING ENGINEERS FABTECH AMERICAN WELDING SOCIETY AMERICAN GEAR MANUFACTURERS MICHIGAN DENTAL ASSOCIATION ROBOTICS INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION SENSORS ANNUAL EXPO Some, its true, have bitten the dust. But there are replacements out there on the national scene - they just avoid Detroit and its graft and its shabbiness. Those problems could have been solved - but Monica and Freman ruined it. P.S. I was planning on voting for Hendrix (I even sent $$$) but he lost my vote. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1277 Registered: 11-2003 |
Maybe because the suburbs see the value of a regional convention center. Cobo has lots of needs, like a new HVAC system, it is still operating on the stuff that was put in when it was built. It does not have lots of current technology, like for example video feeds. Go to convention center in cities like Chicago and even Grand Rapids and you will know how far we are behind. Many people may see convention centers as money losing operations, but look at what it brings to a city, lots of visitors who if they have a good time will come back on their own. Of course we as a region have always been very shortsighted as to what is good for our region, only what is good for me. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1138 Registered: 07-2007 |
"Well, at least their actions convinced me on how I'm voting on that liquor and hotel tax renewal proposal in 2010." It's 2015 and unless you're in the state legislature, you aren't going to be voting on anything. "To share out one of our most valuable pieces, would be negative toward the best interest in the future of our great City. In this case, It's ours, not yours!" Then stop taking tax dollars from Oakland County and elsewhere to subsidize the operations of Cobo. I'm all for local control and self-determination. If that's the route that Detroit's leaders want to take, more power to you. But that also means that the money that leaves Oakland County and elsewhere to support Cobo needs to stop and stay in Oakland County. It's a terribly destructive path Detroit CC appears to be on but the days on enabling that destructive behavior need to end. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 907 Registered: 11-2003 |
Blksoul, you often provide the forum with pointed commentary that gives folks a (usually) well-supported alternative point of view. You are firing blanks on this one though: quote:First, the Cobo Center property has no value in the traditional sense of market value, none. It cannot be sold to anybody because it cannot generate enough revenue to cover its debt service and operating costs. Yes, the facility does have some value to Detroit, but what you and Ms. Conyers and Ms. Watson fail to understand or more probably don't want to admit is that Cobo Center's value to Detroit would not be lost if it is tranferred to a regional authority. Quite the contrary. The facility's economic value lies in the economic activity that it generates, i.e., hosting events at which attendees spend money in Detroit that they otherwise would not have spent or would have spent elsewhere. Under the regional authority deal, the facility stays here. Therefore, the economic value (if any) stays here. This is not rocket science. You say why should suburbanites be granted access to the money from the facility. What money? They are not getting any money. In fact, they are giving money to the city by relieving the city of the future deficits the facility will incur annually on a cash basis. Blksoul, your history on this forum and your grasp of most issues demonstrate that you understand these rudimentary economics. One suspects that it is not economics underlying your position but instead it is something else. | ||
Stosh Member Username: Stosh Post Number: 57 Registered: 01-2009 |
quote: It's too bad that it's not in 2010. Oh well, just saw that somewhere here. It's not like I actually pay the tax anyway. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1140 Registered: 07-2007 |
Stosh - No problem. There's lot of details flying around here, some accurate, some not. I've made the point that few in the Metro area actually pay that tax. But if Detroit thinks they can swing Cobo on their own, I don't see why Oakland County or anyone else should funnel those tax dollars to Cobo, as much as I think that having Cobo as a regional asset is a good thing for our area. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1933 Registered: 12-2004 |
I'm just wondering: of all those folks who have made disparaging comments about the City Council over the Cobo deal, how many of you actually live in one of Detroit's regular neighborhoods? Not in the 'burbs, in a loft downtown or in a gated community (Lafayette Park, River Town, etc.). How many of you live in one of Detroit's regular neighborhoods? | ||
Stosh Member Username: Stosh Post Number: 59 Registered: 01-2009 |
This is from a HTML version of a PDF that was taken down from the Oakland County website. The excerpt below refers to the taxes that would have been used for the project. I'd think that if you drink liquor, smoke in Wayne county, or use a hotel for any reason that it would have an effect on your wallet in some way. Cobo Oakland County Questions quote: | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1733 Registered: 05-2005 |
i do. so exactly how will scuttling the cobo deal will be a win for warrendale? | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 2595 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Pretty much sums it up. I don't even know where to start in this cesspool of posts, but I'm gonna try. First, I'll address the thought that some how Oakland County is now going to build their own convention center and take the NAIAS away from Detroit. Is Oakland County somehow immune to the economic conditions that have hit this country? Is Automation Alley hitting grand slams or something? Oakland County ain't as high and mighty as it once was. Don't fool yourself, they don't have the means or finances to build a new convention center. Let's move onto the deal killer itself. I'm a home owning, tax paying, employee in the city of Detroit. I worked in the auto industry for over 6 years, and I read the news. The north American auto industry has been on this crash course for nearly 10 years now. It wasn't until the industry was backed into a corner that the survival instincts kicked in. Now, thanks to a national economy that is in the shitter, it's got to the point of needing federal help. The auto industry is truly the backbone of the manufacturing industry, and in many ways, the last surviving industry that offers the average Joe a decent living in this country. It should be saved, the feds and tax payers should step in. However, for 1 or 2 of the big 3, it may be too late. Which leads me to the most obvious question that nobody is asking...drum roll please Why the fuck are we looking to build a larger convention center for an industry in disarray? The NAIAS is the only show hosted at Cobo that has asked for more room. Attending this year, their downsized displays proved that the facility was more than sufficient. Does anybody really believe that this downward spiral over the last 10 years is somehow going to miraculously make a comeback in the next few years? Many of the foreign industries are experiencing the same pains and are making their own cuts. In my opinion, now is not the time to expand Cobo. Do I agree with the line of thought by those who voted against the deal? Hell no! Their divisive tactics putting city vs suburb are old news. That nut job at the helm needs to be institutionalized! Though at the same time, I can't discredit the way they voted. $300 million on a facility at a time that it is not needed? Why? Lastly, I'd love to hear why people are now predicting the downfall of all the new hotels? For years there was the argument of whether the city needed and expanded Cobo or more hotels first, the chicken or the egg question. Well, the city got it's hotels first. Now without an expanded Cobo all of the sudden they will all fail? Why? Motels average something like 65% occupancy in Detroit. Do you really believe that the extra 35% over a couple of weeks out of the year is the make or break for these places? 5 years ago I would have been all about an expanded Cobo. Today, I think we have more pressing issues and feel that $300 million could be better spent. Food for thought, say we did expand Cobo. Then lets say that GM goes under and Fiat takes over Chrysler. You really think Detroit would have pull over Chicago or LA with 1 survivor of the big 3? Michigan/Detroit are probably the toughest markets for the import industry. You think with the big 3 dwindled to 1 they would continue to show their new products here? Cobo needs to be put in a holding pattern for a few years until we see what the outcome for the auto industry is going to be. Lastly, I wonder why people don't get as worked up about Detroit Public Schools, the high unemployment of Detroit, or lack of voter turnout. Why is a $300 million failed project of so much concern when their are more pressing issues? No Cobo expansion? I could really give a fuck. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 2596 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: (jumping up and down) Me, me, me! LOL | ||
Lodgedodger Member Username: Lodgedodger Post Number: 1539 Registered: 05-2008 |
The Oracle of Detroit has spoken! | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 909 Registered: 11-2003 |
Fnemecek, this regular neighborhood Detroit resident wants to know, what's your point? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4519 Registered: 02-2004 |
Yes, from oracle of failed black Detroit leaders. You all white folks from the burbs don't try to put any blaming fingers on them. Those black Detroit leaders have a dark past that needs to be clean up. If they want to reform Detroit's image they have to change for themselves. Otherwise you all come to Detroit and clean up the mess they make. WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET! As I wait for recievership to come to do some cleaning. | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2009 |
Like Supersport, I question the need to expand Cobo at this time. Maybe this region dodged a bullet by not approving an expansion plan before this financial crisis. But this still doesn't address the fact that Cobo is a drain on City finances. That being said, I reviewed the analysis of the council's fiscal analyst. I believe the deal and many of the arguments in favor of it are flawed. Flaw #1 - A 5 member authority with each member having the power to independently veto any initiative, and no method (from what I could see) to end a deadlock. This allows any individual on the board to single-handedly do what Council just did for any issue that comes before them - kill it. Flaw #2 - Each county has equal authority on the board. Sure, Cobo is supported with hotel and liquor tax. But 60% comes from Wayne County, 30% from OC and 10% from MC. I have to believe that Detroit is a big portion of the Wayne County revenue on hotels and liquor. Plus, Detroit kicks in additional funding beyond the tax revenue. The board should be set up to reflect this proportion, or something close to it. Flaw #3 - The belief that this will magically fix the financial problems of Cobo. It won't. Cobo will still need additional funding for operation. The deal will redirect cigarette tax money to Cobo. The state could do that now and relieve the burden on Detroit, unless the state just has a problem with Detroit owning Cobo. Flaw #4 - the belief that the suburbs are subsidizing Detroit. The analysis shows that Oakland and Macomb provide less than 40% of the funding for Cobo and reap about 40% of the economic benefit, including jobs. That is not subsidizing, that is contributing to your own financial interests. The deal should be structured to reflect this. There are simple ways to make this fair for the entire region, if people are interested in being fair and objective. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1843 Registered: 12-2006 |
The fact that there are ways to make the deal in such a way that you would consider it more fair, Locke, does not mean that these ways are "simple" as you put it. It was very difficult to put together any kind of deal for Cobo, and it is not likely anyone outside Detroit will now be willing to expend political capital on another try. This was the best deal Detroit was ever going to get IMO. | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2009 |
I won't disagree with you Professorscott. But this says more about the people of this region (both Detroiters and non-Detroiters)than it does about the complexity of a reasonably fair deal. Just my opinion. In any event, tt makes me very discouraged about Michigan as a whole. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1143 Registered: 07-2007 |
"I have to believe that Detroit is a big portion of the Wayne County revenue on hotels and liquor." Based on what? Run the numbers and you might find that the portion of the county outside Detroit generates a significant portion of that percentage. I'll post numbers if I can find them. At best, it would argue for reducing Macomb County's role on the authority. I don't see any numbers that would justify increasing Detroit's representation on the Board. "The belief that the suburbs are subsidizing Detroit. The analysis shows that Oakland and Macomb provide less than 40% of the funding for Cobo and reap about 40% of the economic benefit, including jobs. That is not subsidizing, that is contributing to your own financial interests. The deal should be structured to reflect this." This assumes that this is how Oakland County would choose to invest these dollars when the time comes to choose between continuing to subsidize Cobo or not. The OC may find that investing that money in the county will lead to a higher return on the County's investment than what comes from Cobo. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1934 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: I'm wondering because since this deal happened, I've been to my local barbershop, 2 neighborhood bars and such. I've talked to dozens of my neighbors. I'm yet to meet anyone who actually cares what happens to Cobo. I feel there's a certain level of apathy amongst at least a decent segment of Detroiters. I talked to one gentleman who rattled off a list of special projects dating back to building the Ren Cen that were supposed to improve Detroit. Meanwhile, basic city services in Detroit just keep getting worse and worse. One more reason why we have to focus on downtown, at the expense of the neighborhoods, always pops up. There is simply a level of Cobo fatigue. I know that - from a purely rationale sense - the proposed expansion of Cobo is a good idea. I'm just tired of it. Cobo has simply become the latest distraction for why Detroit can't provide basic city services. And I'm really, really tired of it. If you search through the archives, a year or two ago, I posted regularly about how important Cobo is. Today, I'm just tired of hearing about it. The Mayor has spent weeks worrying about Cobo, but what has he done to make sure that a cop shows up the next time I have to call 9-1-1? What's been done about the arsons that have plagued by neighborhood, even when witnesses have come forward with a description of the arsonist and his vehicle? It's been almost 3 years since I've been able to go a day without seeing a drug deal happen. I see more Dearborn and Dearborn Heights police cars in my neighborhood than I see Detroit ones. And Cobo is what is dominating the news? Cobo is the focus of everyone's attention? Cobo??? People keep talking about the tax revenue and jobs that Cobo generates. I'm yet to see all of that translate into anything meaningful for the neighborhoods. Instead, we've simply had one thing after another that pulled our collective attention away from dealing with basic city services. I sat down one afternoon, went through the city's budget and did some research. Realistically, we should be able to provide a neighborhood with police and fire protection, have the trash picked up, the streets plowed and the lights turned on for about $800 per household per year. I'm currently paying more than $1,000 to the City of Detroit in property taxes alone. That's on top of the income taxes, utility taxes and everything else. And I still get my street plowed, an arsonist arrested or a cop to respond when there's a shooting. No other city would put up with this. Why are we? I used to be a huge supporter of expanding Cobo. Today, I'm ready to tear the damn thing down just so don't have to hear about it any more. If my experience over the past 24 hours is any indicator, I'm not the only person in this city who feels that way. And that's why I asked. |
