  Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 737 Registered: 08-2006 |
Email your mayor, city council, DDA, & local business leaders to make the madness stop. We should organize efforts to demand explanation for this nonsense, demand our money be used to RESTORE, not DEMOLISH, some or all of these structures, and personally rally support for saving 2030 W Grand River in particular. | ||
Saladiv Member Username: Saladiv Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2008 |
I lived in a loft at 2030 Grand River from 1999 thru 2001, hardwood floors, tall ceilings, Juan Atkins lived in same loft before I did, had industry friends from NYC, etc, over at that time and they all said it was a 2K+ loft there. I don't know whats changed in a few years, but between the retail opportunity on the street level, and the quality of living space I knew, demolishing this building is truly insane. | ||
Navi Member Username: Navi Post Number: 45 Registered: 09-2005 |
A lot of people are getting their panties in a bunch a little too late. This was announced and passed long ago, it would have been a better time than right now where they are removing windows and the building eaters are out. | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 1028 Registered: 12-2004 |
This makes me furious. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 598 Registered: 02-2006 |
This deal does stink. There is no way they should be using tax money to tear down millionaires properties. Think about how many burned out shells of homes you could level with that. I will say this however. I know Illitch isn't too popular in these parts but I still think he has done more good than bad. Everyone likes to bash him but I don't see anyone else doing much more good downtown than him. The people who truly deserve to be bashed are the ones who aren't doing anything. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 805 Registered: 11-2003 |
The topic related to these buildings has already talked about to death, not to mention the checks have already been cashed and the demo is imminent. Nothing can be done now. If you don't want to see this happen to other buildings in Downtown Detroit, I urge you to join groups like Preservation Wayne and Greater Detroit Historic Preservation Coalition and get involved. Nothing happens by bitching about it on a forum. The Lafayette Building is currently on the chopping block and there is still time to save that one. | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2228 Registered: 09-2003 |
I don't know why everybody is getting so upset about Ilitch. He is just moving in step with the movie industry. You know, the Fine Arts as a Hollywood stage front. And, hey, the film industry gets 42% break on everything, at our expense, so why wouldn't he? The problem is not Ilitch. It is the public policy that allows it. He is just a businessman who says, hey they are giving out money if I do a-b-c, so he does a-b-c. A lot others are doing the same; you just hear about Ilitch because of his high profile. Every week Crains has stories about millions doled out out by state MEGA grants. This issue of corporate welfare which pits country against country, state against state, city against city is out of control. Just like the idiocy that creates blockage of business and loss of money at our border with Canada, this must be addressed at the federal level first. Fat chance. But imagine if it were somehow removed. Business would continue as normal, the taxpayer would just be off the hook for billions. It is very discouraging and while an effort to rally against one businessman may succeed hundreds of others will still get their welfare cheese. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 5802 Registered: 10-2003 |
Lowell - I agree but there is an important point that differentiates the people. When people make wise business decisions that are negative for the city it is one thing becase they are business people first. The problem with applying this same logic to Illitch is that while doing what is best for his bsuiness is his also praised by many as the savior of the city. Either do what is best for your business or do what is right and get praised for it. He has managed to do both. That is what is so frustrating. I will assure you that on one of the days that demo is going on there will be an article about the greatness that he is adding to downtown by eliminting these 'eyesore'. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1152 Registered: 07-2007 |
"Everyone likes to bash him but I don't see anyone else doing much more good downtown than him." Really? Who else has the same track record of acquiring buildings, letting them rot and then getting government dollars to knock them down? Or knock down buildings that still have a useful life? Besides Comerica Park, what has Illitch built in the city that's been of benefit to the downtown? Parking lots do not count. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 2807 Registered: 10-2003 |
Wasn't Comerica Park built using some taxpayers dollars? If that is the case, then you all also helped build it. Just like you are all helping to demo areas of Detroit but have no say. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 599 Registered: 02-2006 |
Novine, I think Matty Moroune has a pretty good track record in that department. The point is that everybody else is doing nothing. Without him would be parking in the Fox just like we do the Michigan. Do these buildings have a useful life left? If they do who stepped up to buy they away from Illitch and rehab them? Not you. Not anybody. Illitch is doing more than most. Maybe you just want these buildings to sit around so more dumbass "urban explorer" can post more pictures of them on their blog. Part of the reason builders build out in the middle of nowhere is because it is easier to build on vacant land. At the very least creating this vacant land makes one less excuse for someone looking to build downtown. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1537 Registered: 11-2004 |
Putting aside all of the preservation arguments for a minute, how is state and the city not subsidizing a billionaire to the detriment of the city and the state with this deal? These demolitions are erasing tax base. They are creating blight. They are continuing the destruction of the urban fabric in what should be the densest part of Michigan. They are taking precious tax dollars away from essential services like police and fire protection and putting them in the pockets of one of the richest people in the world. This is all happening on the watches of George Jackson, Kwame Kilpatrick, Ken Cockrell, Monica Conyers and Jennifer Granholm. These are some of our leaders that are enabling or letting this to happen. This is a time of economic crisis that is hitting Detroit and Michigan harder than just about anywhere else. Why are our public officials using our tax dollars this way? | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 726 Registered: 11-2003 |
Get as pissed as you want. It won't do any good. No one will listen unless you "look like" Monica Conyers. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 2816 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^Because all of the other vacant lots have attracted so much busines. In fact there are studies that show having existing buildings in an area is better for development than having vacant lots. Of course this isn't across the board as there are certain application where this would not apply. 321Brian, I am glad you enjoy your tax dollars helping a billionaire demolish buildings. Because those tax dollars aren't needed elsewhere in the city. Nope! Not at all! | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1844 Registered: 12-2006 |
A few thoughts... 1. Ilitch is building surface lots because it is much less expensive than building a parking structure. Parking structures only exist where land is too valuable to use for surface lots, and that's not the case in this particular area. 2. Regarding the argument that Building X would be great for retail, lofts or whatever: really? There is very little development going on downtown or anywhere else, and there's been no significant development in the Grand River corridor in my entire life, and I'm almost 50. Buildings are only useful if they're in a useful place. 3. Can't the city take over this or that building? Sure! Add it to the tens of thousands they already own, don't care for, and which aren't on the tax rolls. Ilitch has done a lot for the city, but that also includes there has to be a benefit to the Ilitch family. Most downtown property owners have done nothing but let their buildings rot. 4. Tax dollars are being used for demolition. What the fuck is that argument about? If we don't demolish people complain, and if we do demolish people complain. Private business doesn't use money of its own to demolish buildings on worthless land because there is no economic benefit to doing so. (Remember why businesses exist in the first place.) The only way anything gets demolished is if the land is valuable enough to use for something better (not true pretty much anywhere in Detroit), or if the demo is subsidized. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1154 Registered: 07-2007 |
"I think Matty Moroune has a pretty good track record in that department." Nope, even Matty hasn't been the cause of as much demolition downtown as Illitch. "The point is that everybody else is doing nothing." That would be news to a lot of people who have done projects in Detroit. "Without him would be parking in the Fox just like we do the Michigan." Perhaps. But because Illitch saved the Fox shouldn't give him carte blanche for 30 years of demolition. No one else takes that approach downtown. "Do these buildings have a useful life left? If they do who stepped up to buy they away from Illitch and rehab them? Not you. Not anybody." Illitch has refused past offers from those interested in rehabbing the buildings he owns. If you're ignorant of the past history, you should probably be careful about the claims you are putting forward. "Illitch is doing more than most. Maybe you just want these buildings to sit around so more dumbass "urban explorer" can post more pictures of them on their blog." What's he doing? Getting tax dollars spent to demolish buildings he failed to keep up and putting up parking lots. That's your idea of "doing more than most"? "Part of the reason builders build out in the middle of nowhere is because it is easier to build on vacant land." Really? What development has come to the properties that Illitch has caused to become vacant land? "At the very least creating this vacant land makes one less excuse for someone looking to build downtown." Again, where are all the projects created by Illitch's demolition spree? An example would be nice. Can you provide one? | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1538 Registered: 11-2004 |
"Tax dollars are being used for demolition. What the fuck is that argument about?" It's about putting tax dollars to best use. Usually when the city demolishes a building the building's owner has to pay the bill or forfeit the land. This happens with all of Detroit's tax payers, except the ultra rich. The Ilitch family can not only afford to demo these buildings but restore them. It chooses not to, leaving these buildings to be torn down at the public's expense. If tax payers are paying to tear down these buildings then tax payers should own the land. But our leaders are selling out the taxpayer's interests, or at least looking the other way, to accommodate the very, very wealthy. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1846 Registered: 12-2006 |
But E_hemingway, you're missing one of my points. Let's say Detroit does what you suggest, demo the building and then take the land. Yippee! Detroit now owns yet another worthless vacant lot. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1539 Registered: 11-2004 |
"Regarding the argument that Building X would be great for retail, lofts or whatever: really? There is very little development going on downtown or anywhere else, and there's been no significant development in the Grand River corridor in my entire life, and I'm almost 50." This is false. There are thriving businesses in that section of town. Buildings in much worse shape have been recently renovated and now house vibrant businesses or are in line for them. The Iodent Building, Park Bar, Cliff Bells, Kales Building, the music school on Cass are all doing well and a stones throw from these buildings. A local company is in the process of acquiring the GAR building on Grand River so it can be rehabbed. This is a project that will cost million of dollars while creating dozens of jobs and maximizing the tax base. The GAR is in much worse shape and harder to make a renovation work because of its age, shape and footprint than any of these buildings about to razed. Yet banks have already signed off on the financing and the city is about to do the same. To say there is no market to redevelop these buildings is patently false. The real reason these buildings are being demoed is because an incredibly wealthy and politically well-connected entity (the Ilitch family) can charge $20 a car to park on a blighted gravel lot while paying minimum money for upkeep and taxes. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1540 Registered: 11-2004 |
Professor, if there was any real danger of that happening the Ilitch family would be investing in the buildings, selling them or not even buying them in the first place. The point is there needs to be consequences for causing demolition by neglect. The Ilitch family's demolition by neglect business model would not work if it had to play by the same rules as everyone else. The only reason it works is because you and I pay for it. | ||
Detroitred Member Username: Detroitred Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2009 |
Actually the GAR Building was bought by Illitch in 2007 for $220,500. They are supposed to house Olympia Entertainment staff there. Should be a good location next to the new hockey arena that is sure to be built in this area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G rand_Army_of_the_Republic_Buil ding_(Detroit,_Michigan) (Message edited by DetroitRed on February 26, 2009) | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1541 Registered: 11-2004 |
That's old news Detroitred. The Ilitch family relinquished their option on the GAR and Mindfield now has the rights to it. Check out the bottom of this story. Production company Mindfield clicks in downtown Detroit http://www.freep.com/article/2 0090215/BUSINESS04/902150376/1 017/BUSINESS/Production+compan y+Mindfield+clicks+in+downtown +Detroit | ||
Detroitred Member Username: Detroitred Post Number: 6 Registered: 02-2009 |
Nice. Obviously I didn't know that, but that's real good news. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 602 Registered: 02-2006 |
So who did Illich out bid for the rights to these buildings. What "development" did he block by purchasing them himself. Who do you know of that wanted one of his buildings and he had it demolished instead? You are right about one thing Moroun doesn't demolish his buildings he just lets them sit and rot. I can thing of one pretty big property that Illich developed that he caused to become vacant land. If you remember he originally wanted that project behind the Fox but was blocked. That is why there is so many parking lots back there now. I have no current example of a project created by his current demolition spree. However, I think within the next few years there will be one. MY problem with Illich bashing is that at least he is doing something. For him to use tax dollars is wrong. But I think anyone else in his position would do the same. I did not think of the lost tax dollars when a property goes form a building to a vacant lot. Goat, You did not read my first post. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1156 Registered: 07-2007 |
The Madison-Lenox was one example. This says it all. "But how did the Madison-Lenox reach its current state? Who’s responsible? Why is it necessary to replace it with a parking lot? And why is the city loaning $700,000 to finance its demolition by those so-called dedicated “preservationists,” the Ilitch family, which still coasts on the now-distant renovation of the Fox while simultaneously sitting on countless historic structures across downtown and allowing them to rot? Apparently, one Fox restoration can get you a lot of leeway in downtown slumlord circles. But we’re getting ahead of ourselves here." http://metrotimes.com/editoria l/story.asp?id=4553 | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 5803 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: The bigger question is who was not allowed to bid because MI got a sweetheart deal from the city. Then the next question is who appraoched him about properties just to be ignored. Madison Lennox anyone? quote: So you don't believe that having a person with no plans for development holding/destroying buildings doesn't chase off potential investors? Maybe not now due to the economy but he was certainly an impediment to a few intersted developers a few years ago. quote: Taht's because he doesn't get publis money to knock them down. quote: If you are talking about the Fox don't forget that Forbes had a hand in that as well. quote: Can you elaborate? He pitched grand plans to the city and was allowed to close the street off and obtain property in the area. He never delivered, he wasn't 'blocked' quote: Negating a potential new arena for the Wings I can say with 99% certainty that nothing will come from his lots on Woodward in front of Comerica, land he has bought near his wife's casino, land on Woodward north of 375, land behind the Fox, land along Cass. He may build a new arean. Beyond that he will not do a damn thing except have Olympia entertainment employees collect money at his 'landscaped' lots. quote: you typed that wrong. you shoudl have stated " MY problem with Illich bashing is that at least he DID something.} It has been a long time since he has lived up to his reputation and a long time since he does done much of anything positive for the city. If I give you a nickel, then beat the crap out of you everyday can I claim that I am decent becasue I gave you a nickel? (I know extreme comparison) quote: True. Just anyone else would get called out for it. Anyone else wouldn't constantly be praised as the savior of downtown. Anyone else does it and they are a villain. MI does it and he is somehow a hero. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 1343 Registered: 01-2005 |
E_hemingway: You may of course be correct that the folks who intend to buy the GAR have financing to acquire and renovate it. I'd be shocked if that's accurate. Any details? I and three associates made a run at the GAR in the mid-'80's. We didn't need financing. The City had "sold" the building by land contract to a well connected local guy and the land contract was long in default. The City still wouldn't cooperate. Anyway, after running and re-running the numbers the deal made no sense and we dropped it. I imagine that Ilitch dropped his option for the same reason. (The re-hab costs today are escalated by the many burdens imposed by a lawsuit settlement in favor the the Daughters of the American Revolution.) | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1544 Registered: 11-2004 |
The guys who plan to renovate the GAR own and operate Mindfield, a firm that employs about a dozen people. More info on them here: http://mindfieldusa.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =r-W2bYgdJ6A http://www.freep.com/article/2 0090215/BUSINESS04/902150376/1 017/BUSINESS/Production+compan y+Mindfield+clicks+in+downtown +Detroit These are the guys who bought and renovated the Vincentes building on Library Street next to the downtown branch of the DPL. That building was in horrible shape when they took it over in the 1990s. It's now a shinning example of what is possible with downtown's building stock if people would just get out of the way. I don't have the details on how they are making it work, but there is a difference between when the Ilitches announce they're going to rehab a building (Detroit Life) and when these guys do it. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 808 Registered: 11-2003 |
3rdworldcity Were you part of the Citidel Group? | ||
Leannam1989 Member Username: Leannam1989 Post Number: 199 Registered: 06-2008 |
I don't think a money-hungry businessman tearing down buildings is anything new in cities. In St. Louis, It's Paul McKee. He buys up North Side buildings (mostly) and removes the windows. Then eventually they'll need "emergency demolition". He does nothing to prevent brick rustlers. If the buildings he buys are rentals, he kicks out the tenants. Why? Nobody knows. He won't tell anyone his intentions. There's no rhyme or reason to what he does. But apparently it's his mission to destroy what's left of North City brick-by-brick. There are groups looking to stop him, but the city lets him do it because he has money. Can anyone stop these demolition-by-neglect monsters? I don't know. Money speaks. |
