  E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1550 Registered: 11-2004 |
It's not all bad news around here lately. Construction start by this fall and finish by 2010 sounds a little encouraging. Bids for Woodward rail line being reviewed The proposed privately funded light-rail system on Woodward Avenue has a new name and an aggressive timetable as planners take the first practical steps to turn the idea into reality. Formerly known as TRAIL for the Regional Area Initial Link, the system is now called M1-RAIL after the state designation for Woodward Avenue -- M1. Paul Childs, a staffer at the nonprofit Downtown Detroit Partnership, now serves as project manager for M1-RAIL. He said Monday that bids for engineering design and pre-construction oversight were issued in late February and project staffers are now reviewing submissions from various firms. Contracts could be awarded for those tasks as early as late March. Planners hope to break ground by fall and have the rail system running by late 2010 if all goes well. "That's pretty ambitious," Childs admitted. "Everything has to align to make that happen." But he added, "We have a goal, and we think the goal is doable." Ann Lang, president of the Downtown Detroit Partnership, said progress on the M1-RAIL system proved that good things can happen, even in a depressed economy. "It's wonderful at this time to have something so big and so positive to rally around," she said. Civic leader John Hertel led the Woodward Avenue rail effort until state lawmakers recently passed legislation allowing for the creation of the privately funded system. Hertel now has moved on to planning a region-wide transit system. Businessman and civic leader Roger Penske, chair of the downtown partnership, serves as chair of M1-RAIL. Matthew Cullen, a former General Motors executive, serves as CEO of the rail venture. He is also president and chief operating officer of Rock Enterprises, a holding company for entrepreneurial firms controlled by Dan Gilbert, founder of Quicken Loans. The $100 million needed to build the system is being raised by selling sponsorships of individual stations to prominent business leaders and institutions. Wayne State University has agreed to sponsor one station, while other sponsors include Penske, Peter Karmanos Jr. of Compuware Corp., Dan Gilbert of Quicken Loans, and the Ilitch family of pizza and sports fame. Advertisement Penske, Cullen, and project manager Childs are not being paid for their work with M1-RAIL. The M1-RAIL system would feature streetcars running up both sides of Woodward Avenue in the second lane out from the curb between Jefferson Avenue and New Center. Childs said that the system probably would order either six or seven large passenger cars or 10 to 12 smaller ones. Each of the 13 stops would involve two stations, one on either side of the street, to accommodate both north and south traffic. The system still needs to obtain a City of Detroit operating license. Contact JOHN GALLAGHER at 313-222-5173 or gallagher@freepress.com. http://www.freep.com/article/2 0090306/BUSINESS06/903060394/1 002/NLETTER01/Bids+for+Woodwar d+rail+line+being+reviewed?sou rce=nletter-business | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 447 Registered: 01-2004 |
No word of integrating with the other proposal....I thought that was supposed to happen by now. | ||
Registeredguest Member Username: Registeredguest Post Number: 156 Registered: 10-2003 |
"The system still needs to obtain a City of Detroit operating license." Let's hope that this does not require CC approval - as they might put the skids on it. That extra fourth lane of pothole ridden pavement is a gem owned by the "citizens of Detroit," don't ya know. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1190 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sounds great, but it doesn't mention where the operating subsidy will come from. Privately-operated public transit does not happen without a public operating subsidy. | ||
Dcmorrison12 Member Username: Dcmorrison12 Post Number: 59 Registered: 02-2009 |
The public and private projects are still in talks as of right now. The public side is continuing on with their research (right now DDOT is gathering environmental impact data - the federal new starts program requires it). That's about all I can say without having my DDOT contacts yelling at me... | ||
Ljbad89 Member Username: Ljbad89 Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2007 |
I wonder what the downtown operation will look like. Will they somehow make it fit down Woodward the whole way or go in a loop like DTOGS's proposal? Also, I do not like the "second lane from the curb" set-up at all. Without a dedicated right-of-way, the trains will probably be no faster than a bus. Cars will have to drive over tracks to get into driving lanes so that could be more dangerous than the ocassional 4-way intersection with the median-grade plan. Then people will have to walk through parked cars to get to the sidewalk. I suppose to counter that problem, there could be no parking at those stations and the trains could pull closer to the curb... The private plan has been closely kept undercover unless I missed something. Is there anywhere online that has a good amount of information? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1191 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ljbad89-- Streetcars ran just fine on Woodward decades ago, when there was a lot more pedestrian and auto traffic. I wouldn't worry about it. | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 502 Registered: 02-2008 |
Ljbad, alot of streetcar routes in America and in Europe share the road with cars, that's the way it is. And no, Hertel wanted this to be an undercover project, but the word leaked. There isn't a website for M-1 Rail, but SEMCOG's website does have the mass transit pact that was signed between the Big 4 leaders. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1876 Registered: 12-2006 |
I don't know how the Woodward line will eventually look, but in cities that have second-lane rail operation, parking is eliminated at stations and the sidewalk "bumps out" to come to the train. So once you walk off the train, you're at the sidewalk. Wherever there is no station, parking in the curb lane is allowed, except where it isn't (like near hydrants). Anywhere you put tracks on Woodward, cars will have to cross them. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 531 Registered: 09-2004 |
Hmmm, if it's second lane out from the curb it might look like a classic streetcar operation from Grand Circus Park down the Campus Martius. To me, the center of street running made the most sense as far as I could tell, but hopefully this system will work out well, too. Can't wait for construction to start to show that this program will get off the ground! | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 1000 Registered: 04-2008 |
It's sad to see that these four men have $100 million to blow on this project, but can not fund any of the more pressing needs of the citizens of Detroit. If mass transit is such a priority, buy a few more buses, and with the remaining $99 million, build a few hundred homes, hire a few hundred policemen, buy a few thousand textbooks for the children, and throw in a couple of new fire engines to round it off. Where are our priorities? Trainman, where are you? | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 752 Registered: 08-2006 |
Bout freaking time. With this new rail line, we're fixing something that has been broken for over fifty years. We wouldn't even have to be in this position if we would've left the streetcars alone in the first place. Funny that we'll be building a rail line that will essentially look exactly like what was in place in the 1950s (with a slightly different placement & alignment). Woodward Avenue, 1954  | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1878 Registered: 12-2006 |
That's exactly right, Gsgeorge. Different track placement, and a bit bigger vehicles, and some tricks to make it run a bit faster. Then, according to the RTCC plan, phase II takes it up into Royal Oak, at least. Start to rebuild the damn place. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 532 Registered: 09-2004 |
Is this new line supposed to replace or supplement the existing Woodward 53 DDOT bus route? If it's going to replace it, I'm afraid that 7 or 8 cars won't be enough. Heck, in that 1954 photo about you can count about that many streetcars in that image alone! From riding the 53 from time to time, I recall those buses can be bursting at the seams! If this will replace the buses, they're going to need more than 7 or 8 cars to do so, and if not replace, then what will be the draw of taking the rails over the buses, aside from the obvious aspect of a somewhat different riding experience? | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1880 Registered: 12-2006 |
I doubt the new line will replace anything. First of all, in phase I, it will only go as far north as New Center, whereas the 53 bus goes all the way to the fairgrounds. Second, as you mention, 7 or 8 cars won't be enough. Now, to put it in perspective: in 1954, the Woodward streetcar came about every 90 seconds, which is why you can see so many cars in that photo. (Thanks to Gsgeorge for posting that.) Now, though, the 53 bus comes only once every 8 minutes, so the service is down 82% from what it once was. Once phase II hits, and we have trains of some kind going all the way to Royal Oak, then it's worthwhile to ask the question: if we have enough trains to provide a similar level of service, do we then need the buses? My guess is: yes, we still do. The buses make many more stops per mile than the light rail will make. (It won't be like the old streetcar, which stopped everywhere the buses stop now. At least that's my understanding of it.) So there will always be a Woodward bus, but there will also be a faster Woodward rail line, making less frequent stops. I think. | ||
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue Post Number: 182 Registered: 09-2008 |
quote: A major reason for the decline of the streetcar was that the rights-of-way that they shared with cars became increasingly congested as cars became more popular, which caused service to deteriorate. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 3609 Registered: 07-2004 |
A MAJOR reason? Heh. Not really. A major reason for the decline of the streetcar was that General Motors didn't like the competition. Even as city leaders kept shutting down streetcar lines, newspaper polls showed Detroiters wanted them to stay. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1881 Registered: 12-2006 |
By the time streetcars were removed from the major lines, Detroit had started building the older of the expressways, which were removing massive numbers of cars from the old spoke roads. Service deteriorated for two reasons. First, more people were buying cars, so there wasn't as much demand. But second, the City had embarked on an aggressive policy of removing streetcars. How much of that was GM's directive we could argue about all day, but the fact is, the City went along with it. But the congestion was not listed as a problem in any of the documents I've seen at the time giving reasons for shutting down streetcar service. One of the things they tried to sell the public on was safety: it was safer to get off a bus at curb-side rather than disembark from a streetcar in the middle of the street. But the public wasn't buying the bullshit, and never went along with the policy change. But the City didn't give a running shit about public opinion, then as now. | ||
Hunchentoot Member Username: Hunchentoot Post Number: 125 Registered: 03-2005 |
I think that 13 is double the number of stops needed for a 3.5 mile span. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 9567 Registered: 10-2003 |
It should definitely get some use between the main CCS Campus and the coming soon Argonaut building facilities. | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 700 Registered: 10-2006 |
Im really glad this plan goes to 8 mile not just to the New Center! wait . . .Im confused the article made it sound like the line was going to State Fair Grounds as some others say "13 stops is double needed for the 3.5 mile line." | ||
Dcmorrison12 Member Username: Dcmorrison12 Post Number: 60 Registered: 02-2009 |
French 777 - It's a bit complicated. This is how it goes: There are two projects, one is private, the other is public (DDOT) The private line is from Hart Plaza to New center - curb side pick up Street Cars. What they meant by "13 stops is double needed for the 3.5 mile line) is that the Private line is 3.5 miles long and has 13 stops, which some say is too many. Now, there is a public plan, by DDOT which would be center of the road, light rail. This would be a faster, commuter type of light rail with fewer but still a sufficient amount of stops. This one is planned to go from Downtown to the State Fairgrounds. Right now, the two plans are having private talks to see how they can combine the two projects Did that help? | ||
Hunchentoot Member Username: Hunchentoot Post Number: 126 Registered: 03-2005 |
And when I say 13 is double, I mean that I think there should be a half-stop, just to enrage and confuse people! | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1882 Registered: 12-2006 |
Not difficult, Hunchentoot. The original LP of Monty Python's "Matching Tie and Handkerchief" was a 3-sided record. So I can easily imagine a one-half light rail stop. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 9569 Registered: 10-2003 |
That's where they open the door and you jump out, but the train doesn't actually slow down. | ||
Detroitred Member Username: Detroitred Post Number: 18 Registered: 02-2009 |
hahaha! | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6198 Registered: 08-2004 |
quote: LOL... Retroit... you and Trainman really are 2 peas in the same pod, aren't you? Did you even read the article? Where does it say that the 4 men are each coughing up $25 million? Think before you post!! | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1883 Registered: 12-2006 |
The SMART bus, so far as I have been able to figure out, makes about 25 to 30 stops in the same corridor (Woodward from Jefferson to New Center). When I say "the SMART bus", I mean the 450/460 local, which make the same stops on that part of Woodward. | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 701 Registered: 10-2006 |
ok Get it now! Thanks | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 500 Registered: 10-2006 |
I still don't get this. The transit line will be funded by selling naming rights? That makes no sense whatsoever. You could never get close to $100 million in naming rights (unless rich people decide to donate the money), and it's irrelevent anyways because you could never build a starter line for even three times that amount. Where are these cost estimates coming from? They are not realistic. Other starter lines built in recent years have hovered around the 1 billion mark. Are they going to import workers from Bangladesh, and lay recycled track or something? |
