  Shadesofbleu Member Username: Shadesofbleu Post Number: 3 Registered: 03-2009 |
We are moving a couple miles North of the Fox Theater because there will be a trolley line up there next year. The new trolley and people mover make the area one big neighborhood. | ||
Canuc_420 Member Username: Canuc_420 Post Number: 3 Registered: 03-2009 |
A trolley line in detroit ?? PLEASE  Think of what yall saying!! WE SHALL O O VER COME!!! ITs nice to dream.. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4400 Registered: 02-2005 |
Considering that the bids are out, I'd bet against you, Canuc. | ||
Norwalk Member Username: Norwalk Post Number: 463 Registered: 11-2006 |
this to shall pass | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 500 Registered: 01-2007 |
If this is a streetcar only system, the public could use a little oversight to find out how we can recommend LRT grade track; and find a way to pay for the extra. Although this is a privately financed line but impacts the public, a FOIA request to any of the four governments involved should be sufficient to gather greater construction spec. details. If a streetcar system is the absolutely best we can ever expect to do, then I'll accept it. If it is planned as a stepping stone to something better, than better should be insisted upon. Even if we, the public, have to pay the extras. | ||
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue Post Number: 183 Registered: 09-2008 |
quote: In a region that is as big and transit-deprived as SEM, a 25-year plan that would give us maybe two light-rail lines is weak sauce. Given the situation that the region (and the nation at large) is in, I think a bolder plan is in order. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 714 Registered: 12-2003 |
I don't think Nellonfury understood my point at all. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4508 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Streetcars and LRT operate on the same track specifications, although since streetcars tend to run at slower operating speeds, may have smaller radii of curvature of the track. The real difference is the vehicles themselves. | ||
Dcmorrison12 Member Username: Dcmorrison12 Post Number: 71 Registered: 02-2009 |
Danindc - They actually do not use the same track specifications. LRT is heavier and therefore needs a deeper foundation. You wouldn't be able to operate LRT on a modern street car track | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 715 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, it is one-way compatibility. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4509 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: The question was about track, not foundations. If the foundation is sufficient, an LRT vehicle can operate on a streetcar track. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1296 Registered: 11-2003 |
So many complaints, yet, this is the closest we have come to mass transit improvements in years. This is actually going to most likely happen. This is will connect to the AA to Detroit train in New Center, which in turn will connect to the People Mover, actually making the People Mover more like what it was intended, the "loop" of a transit system that feeds into it. Let's stop complaining and be happy we have a plan that is actually going to happen. Yes, we all would like a more complex system, but with transit in our region, we need to prove it. Let this system go in and see how it is used, and what development sprouts up around it. Since business leaders are the ones promoting this, (and paying for it) they will encourage people to use it. Not to mention the fact we seem to do a good job hosting things like the Super Bowl, Final Four, etc. This will connect downtown to midtown and give out of town guests another way to see our city, and a way to move from their hotel room to see things like Orchestra Hall, DIA, etc. | ||
Dcmorrison12 Member Username: Dcmorrison12 Post Number: 75 Registered: 02-2009 |
well, we can't go about it as laid back as you would like, Bob. The problem is, if the private plan decides to cut the corners and not build a track that can support LRT, then this will be another flop, just like the People Mover. The plans of bringing mass transit to this city is very exciting, and a fabulous idea. We have to make sure that's it's done the right way. This transit link MUST be compatible for future extensions, or it will be another joke to add to your books. Let's hope the private side doesn't screw things up. | ||
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit Post Number: 202 Registered: 12-2005 |
Bob: Your statement is exactly my problem with the Private plan (People Mover II). You're talking about moving people in a small circle (Midtown and back). Moving people from the hotels to the DIA during large-scale events is akin to a tourist line, and will be woefully under utilized every other day (just like the Original People Mover). My big gripe is the Public Plan does EXACTLY what you suggest the private plan would be great for - but it will also be much more, to many more people. Heck, the Public plan - at the very least - will encourage folks who go to Tigers/Lions/Red Wings/Concerts to park at the Fairgrounds and take the train downtown. But it will also bring the very real possibility of shuttling people downtown for work/leisure and vice versa (to Ferndale). It's just a better, more forward thinking plan. Detroit (and Metro Detroit) does not need a system that only encourages movement between two under utilized points. It needs to connect to a larger community, and larger possibilities. | ||
Wpitonya Member Username: Wpitonya Post Number: 88 Registered: 08-2005 |
Gotdetroit, agreed. Although any addition to the current system is welcome, a LRT system to 8 Mile would make it so much more tempting for OC to join into the transit and extend it to say...Birmingham for now? But again, any new development in terms of transit is welcome. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 198 Registered: 11-2006 |
Dear fellow forum members, I think we have clearly stated the problem regarding M1RAIL. I ask what do you think would be a solution and how we can achieve a resolution. M1RAIL needs to be built in the center of Woodward with track that is structural capable of carrying heavier LRT vehicles. I think the means of accomplishing this is public awareness. I think also that if you convince one of the private entities (like Wayne State) on the right way to proceed, the rest will follow. Local polictians also need to be made aware of the issue at stake here and how so much of our future is riding on the decision of a few at the present. | ||
Dcmorrison12 Member Username: Dcmorrison12 Post Number: 80 Registered: 02-2009 |
I say write Wayne State - Tell them to reconsider their endorsement for the Private project and inform them of the Public side. I don't think Wayne State looked at/ considered the public project before they endorsed the private project. | ||
Bshea Member Username: Bshea Post Number: 44 Registered: 01-2009 |
Devil's advocate question: Is it better to wait many, many years for Detroit to assemble the $100 million-plus it would need for its share of the DTOG plan (provided NYC doesn't continue to eat up New Starts funding), or is it wiser for the M1-Rail and Dtog to blend, and allow the private backers to get this thing started with minimal red tape?' Food for thought! | ||
Nellonfury Member Username: Nellonfury Post Number: 237 Registered: 03-2005 |
I'm with Russix 100% about M1RAIL needs to be built in the center of Woodward.It's gonna be stupid if they planning on building the tracks on the right corners of both sides of a busy street. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 199 Registered: 11-2006 |
Bshea, yes that would be nice, but its getting a little scary when they are requesting bids to pave a freeway with bricks. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 716 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: The positive solution is to adapt the private effort so that it becomes phase I of a public line that might take much longer to build. This only would really require 1 thing, building track that can accommodate heavier LRT vehicles. Reducing the number of stops and switching to center running would also help, but are not absolutely necessary. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4402 Registered: 02-2005 |
While having them run down the middle of Woodward was a proven method from early last century, it's not neccesary and not neccesarily ideal for today. Imagine the already-complicated left turn situations e.g. at Warren-Woodward. I've seen streetcar systems with both mid-street and right-lane layouts, and they're both fine. The right-lane layout makes it easier and more enticing for people to board from the sidewalk, and you won't have people running across lanes of traffic to try to catch a ride. Detroit drivers will need a primer in yielding to streetcars on their right turns; ideally, the cars would run against the flow of traffic so that they can be seen. | ||
W_chicago Member Username: W_chicago Post Number: 102 Registered: 01-2008 |
People Mover 2.0!!! People Mover 2.0!!! What A Joke! | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 200 Registered: 11-2006 |
How was left turning accomplished with the old streetcar system that was center lane based? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6211 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks for all the info Jsmyers! I think that all you well intentioned folks who want to start a letter writing campaign, should save your energy on a more worthwhile cause, such as saving the Lafayette Building. I'm sure that the private group of "investors" who are planning this Woodward rail line have plenty of real experts working on this. Did anyone think that maybe one reason for doing this on the sides of the roadway instead of the middle may have something to do with its' effect on the Thanksgiving Day Parade? I'm willing to leave this one to the experts. Too much meddling (back then by politicos) is what caused nothing else to get built after the completion of the People Mover in the 1970's. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1889 Registered: 12-2006 |
Russix, I have lots of old photos of Detroit in the streetcar days of the first half of the 20th century. Traffic interactions with the streetcars created enormous snarls all over the place in every way possible. People turned left right in front of the streetcars - which in turn didn't go very fast, and so could stop quickly. Remember, too, in those days the streetcar came in each direction every minute and a half. At some intersections the City created oddball configurations so nobody would turn left at all. For example, at Woodward and McNichols, all the way up to the 1990s, if you were traveling south and wanted to turn left onto eastbound McNichols, you took what basically was a right-exit ramp off of Woodward then turned left from there. My opinion on this (notice I've been keeping quiet, odd for me in a transit thread) is similar to what Gistok has just posted. We've heard that the private group has been talking to the DDOT group, and we don't know what those talks have come up with, but I'm pretty sure the private group isn't going to do anything that will damage the chance of building Mr. Hertel's regional system - especially since from what we've read it seems to have been Mr. Hertel who brought together the private group in the first place. | ||
Dcmorrison12 Member Username: Dcmorrison12 Post Number: 82 Registered: 02-2009 |
From my experiences with Hertel, I've come to realize he's the second biggest boob in Southeastern Michigan (right behind L. Brookes). He's very much against anyone supporting the public plan, which is a shame since it's a much better plan - more diligent research has been put into the DDOT plan than the Private plan - of course due to necessity, since the New Starts program requires it. Anyways, I've spoken face to face with Hertel once, and I got into an argument with him over this subject. He was very upset that I supported the public plan and that of it as a better plan. All he had to say to me was "who's going to pay for it?" What I had to say was "well, why not have the public and the private join forces, then we all win" He's a boob... as long as Norman White (director of DDOT) pulls off successful negotiations with the Private side, then things will come out fine. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 717 Registered: 12-2003 |
To help with the discussion a bit, I've got links to two films. The first is a trip down the Portland Max Yellow line: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =f6LWlMRx6uY I used to live not too far from it a few summers ago. The street is like Woodward but a bit narrower (~100' vs. ~120' - about as wide as Woodward is north of Grand Blvd to McNichols). Stops are almost exactly every half mile. This is basically exactly what the Detroit-led DTOGS plans to construct from Downtown to the fairgrounds. It is a great idea! More on the yellow line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M AX_Yellow_Line & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M AX_Light_Rail The second film is about a new streetcar in Seattle: http://www.streetsblog.org/200 9/03/10/streetfilms-take-a-rid e-on-the-seattle-streetcar/ There are 7 stops in a route that is approximately 1.3 miles. This is basically exactly what the private plan is. (13 stops in approximately 3.25 miles) It is also a great idea. More on this streetcar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S outh_Lake_Union_Streetcar A very similar system in Portland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P ortland_Streetcar (Note that both of these streetcar systems were largely started with private money.) So if they are both good ideas, what happens? I think that either the streetcar needs to be built to standards to support LRT vehicles or they should both be planned to operate in parallel on different tracks. If the streetcar track is upgraded, then LRT trains might skip some stops to provide faster service, or maybe some stops should be removed from the streetcar plan. If they are both operated in parallel, then they could both be put on Woodward or one of them should move to a parallel street. If they are both on Woodward, the street might go from looking like this (curb to curb): |Parking|Traffic|Traffic|Traff ic|Turn|Traffic|Traffic|Traffi c|Parking| To this: |Parking|Traffic&Streetcar|Tra ffic|LRT|Traffic|Traffic&Stree tcar|Parking| I don't know if I can quite imagine it. It would definitely make truck traffic more challenging. Alternatively, maybe it would make more sense to send LRT down Cass from Grand Blvd to Downtown. It is a bit tight (~80' ROW) compared to ~120' for Woodward or ~100' for Interstate Ave in Portland. Compared to the Portland example, there wouldn't be room for a bike lane on Cass, and there would only be room for parking on one side, instead of two. Putting LRT on Cass would eliminate all of the difficulty of getting LRT through or around Grand Circus Park, Campus Martius, and the section of Woodward in between. It would also connect directly to the Rosa Parks Transit Center and the People Mover. I’ve made a map that shows what this might look like: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms ?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=1107 83396714351599619.000464c75b11 ddd05ebef&ll=42.34903,-83.0672 84&spn=0.044911,0.077248&t=k&z =14 I like the private streetcar proposal. Combined with the commuter line from New Center to Ann Arbor, it will make transit successful in Detroit. And it can be built soon. What I don't like is the idea that this is LRT, that it is a form of regional transit, or that it is the first phase of the DTOGS. It is dishonest to say any of these things. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1890 Registered: 12-2006 |
If the streetcar tracks can support the heavier LRT vehicles, and if it turns out that both things happen - a privately-operated streetcar line to New Center and light rail to (let's be optimistic) Royal Oak - all you'd have to do is schedule so the trains don't interfere. Let the streetcar make all the stops, and the LRT can make some but not all of the downtown stops. Alternatively, as Jsmyers suggests, have a slightly different routing for the LRT than the streetcar. They could even share part of the route, then (say) the LRT could veer off to the west to hit RPTC. There are lots of options, and as I said, reports are that the two groups are conversing, so hopefully good things will come from this. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4520 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I've never designed a foundation for a railway before, but can someone explain to me why a more robust foundation is needed for LRT vehicles than streetcars, if both types of vehicles are going to operate in a roadway where existing truck weight limits exceed the operating weight of both types of vehicles? |
