 
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6215
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 7:11 pm: |    |
A few years back when Kwame was proposing that the MCS be rehabbed as Detroit's Police HQ, Cockrel's exact comments were "the mayor wants to save that old dinosaur?"
Kinda says it all doesn't it...
... and Brag... if you've ever thought about visiting Rome, Athens, Egypt or Jerusalem... don't bother... you'd just be inundated with monstrocities and eyesores... |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6216
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 7:19 pm: | |
This "mostrocity" (below) is located in the German city of Trier. It is a giant brooding ruin (much like the MCS).
It probably could have been torn down centuries ago because not a lot of folks really cared for it over the centuries.
But there it stands... after 2 millenia... the Porta Nigra (Black Gate)... the northern gateway to the Roman Empire... a rare survivor of a long gone era... what is there to stop us from having our own leviathan ruins?
Vanity?
(Message edited by Gistok on March 13, 2009) |
Bragaboutme
Member
Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 629
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 8:05 pm: | |
First of all we're not talking about other ruins we are talking about The MCS!!!!! I've been to Rome and the MCS doesn't compare(apples oranges). It is an eye sore, like it or not. I like the main lobby (save that), but the upper floors have got to go.
Hunchentoot:
"Being near the train station was a significant factor in my choice of address because it's unique, mysterious, and beautiful.",
yea say that while walking past at night. I bet you would say, "ok that enough looking lets go home now". It brings a bad vibe to the area.
I know how people can admire things from a far, but as soon as the V.A. hospital moved out of Allen Park they didn't label it as a ruin they tore it down and built REAL retail in its place. Notice the Concrete plan?
The problem isn't Detroit, it is the people that control these properties and don't live any where near these eye sores. So they feel they don't have to come up with Concrete plans. They can just let them rot.
There is no comparison you can make Gistok. Have you driven past the MCS lately? I can say this. The only reason I can pass by it comforably is because I know the reason it stands empty. There has to be something done about this danger to both neighborhoods.
Bearinabox, if you don't "put up" retail then how does it get there? You have to have the right type of space, and the campus the MCS sits on would be perfect for that and housing on the ground level. There is just no reason for a train station of that size anymore period. If there is why hasn't anyone came up with a REAL solution, instead of meaningless suggestions, hopes, and dreams? The solution would be to preserve what you can and re-use that area instead of letting Matty continue to let it rot the way he has. That whole area has the potential, the MCS is holding it back. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1311
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 8:18 pm: | |
quote:Bearinabox, if you don't "put up" retail then how does it get there? People start businesses? I'm confused by your argument. Are you saying we don't have enough vacant storefronts in the city?quote:You have to have the right type of space More importantly, you need people who are willing and able to make a retail business work in a city where nobody has money and a lot of people like to steal stuff. There is plenty of suitable space already that nobody is using, because nobody has any idea what to do with it.quote:the campus the MCS sits on would be perfect for that and housing on the ground level. More perfect than all the other empty lots in that neighborhood, or in the city as a whole? I think not. Who wants to live or run a business three feet from a train track? And if the housing is on the ground level, does the retail go above the housing? I can't picture how this would work, and I certainly don't see why it would only work there. If you think this is such a great idea, why not build it on one of the many existing vacant parcels in the city? |
Bragaboutme
Member
Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 630
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 8:21 pm: | |
By the way, I live near St. Annes church (used to live in Brush Park). I ride over the bridge and everytime I think of the possibilities for that whole area without this impediment. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1312
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 8:25 pm: | |
quote:I think of the possibilities for that whole area without this impediment. Yeah, it could be just like it is now, only with a huge vacant lot in the middle of it. |
Bragaboutme
Member
Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 631
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 8:45 pm: | |
Bearinabox, don't be confused I'm saying we don't get the same opportunities to start businesses, but that's a whole different subject. You have to have the right type of space, money, patience, and more money.
"Who wants to live or run a business three feet from a train track?"
Who want to live or run a business three feet from an abandoned monstrosity?
"And if the housing is on the ground level, does the retail go above the housing?"
No, it goes on the ground level too.
"More importantly, you need people who are willing and able to make a retail business work in a city where nobody has money and a lot of people like to steal stuff."
This is the exact reason why it took so long for Home Depot, ect. to get built inside the city limits. The same people that shop in the suburbs that are from the city don't rob their stores so why would they rob in Detroit, it's all a stereotype. Most of Detroit has to shop outside of the City. Why not provide the same service inside the City? Ohh I get it the suburbs have come accustom to the extra money, or was that the plan from the beginning, hummmm?. There is a reason the MCS is still standing.
Bear, answer me this?
Why isn't the Allen Park V.A. hospital still standing? |
Bragaboutme
Member
Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 632
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 8:46 pm: | |
Or potential land for re-use. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1313
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 9:01 pm: | |
quote:Who want to live or run a business three feet from an abandoned monstrosity? Nobody has to. MCS has a park in front and train tracks behind. The businesses are on Michigan and Vernor and Bagley, where they belong.quote:No, it goes on the ground level too. So you want to build a one-story strip mall with apartments in between the storefronts? I am really, truly baffled as to what you're suggesting here, and as to why it can only work where MCS is now, and not on any of the other vacant parcels in the area.quote:This is the exact reason why it took so long for Home Depot, ect. to get built inside the city limits. The same people that shop in the suburbs that are from the city don't rob their stores so why would they rob in Detroit, it's all a stereotype. Most of Detroit has to shop outside of the City. Why not provide the same service inside the City? Ohh I get it the suburbs have come accustom to the extra money, or was that the plan from the beginning, hummmm?. There is a reason the MCS is still standing. Yep, I'm single-handedly conspiring to keep retail out of Detroit. You found me out. What does any of this have to do with MCS?quote:Bear, answer me this?
Why isn't the Allen Park V.A. hospital still standing? I didn't even know Allen Park had a VA hospital. I was never in the military, and I've spent about five minutes of my life downriver.
While we're telling riddles, though, maybe you can answer me this: Why haven't all the vacant storefronts on the actual commercial streets in that neighborhood filled up already, if this economic environment, and the specific conditions present in that part of town, are so conducive to the development of retail that a vacant lot where MCS used to be couldn't help but fill up with retail development? |
Bragaboutme
Member
Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 635
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 9:25 pm: | |
"While we're telling riddles, though, maybe you can answer me this: Why haven't all the vacant storefronts on the actual commercial streets in that neighborhood filled up already, if this economic environment, and the specific conditions present in that part of town, are so conducive to the development of retail that a vacant lot where MCS used to be couldn't help but fill up with retail development?"
Because the MCS is still standing.
I never said anything about strip malls. I'm talking about the developement that has aready taken place in that area such as Honeybees, Slows and the many businesses that already exist in that area.
Well, if your not familiar with the Allen Park V.A. it was a ruin such as the MCS. You know what they did with it? this monstosity was torn down, and real retail was built to enrich the surrounding community. It didn't sit vacant.
"so you want to build a one-story strip mall with apartments in between the storefronts?"
No, I want a concrete plan in place instead of dreams and wishes. There is enough space for a developer to come in and re-use that area and provide it with potential activity rather than an Eye Sore.
Ok answer me this? If the MCS was in your back yard what would be done with it? |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1314
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 9:43 pm: | |
quote:Because the MCS is still standing. What a ridiculous assertion. Corktown and Mexicantown aren't the only neighborhoods in the city/metro with vacant storefronts. Is MCS keeping storefronts empty at, say, Warren and Cadieux?quote:I never said anything about strip malls. I'm talking about the developement that has aready taken place in that area such as Honeybees, Slows and the many businesses that already exist in that area. You said you wanted residential and retail both "on the ground floor," presumably of the same building. You haven't done a very good job of articulating your vision, and that is what I was trying to point out with the "strip mall" comment. I was trying to get you to refine it a little more by explaining how it was different from a strip mall, and then maybe I would have a better idea of what you were talking about. Honey Bee and Slow's both opened in existing buildings in the neighborhood, the same way most new retail does. Incidentally, if MCS is the only impediment to retail development in that area, how were Honey Bee and Slow's able to open with MCS right there? Wouldn't it affect them the same way it affects all the other businesses?quote:Ok answer me this? If the MCS was in your back yard what would be done with it? As has been suggested over and over on this thread and elsewhere, I would fix the windows and the roof to keep out the elements, and then start with the first floor and restore my way upwards at a rate directly proportional to the amount of money available to me and the potential for that space being employed to a productive end. Since this situation is clearly a hypothetical construct (MCS isn't in anyone's backyard, let alone mine, and no backyard in the city is big enough to accommodate it), can I be a billionaire like Matty? That thing would be restored in five seconds flat.  |
Russix
Member
Username: Russix
Post Number: 205
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 9:56 pm: | |
Today's Headlines:
Upgrades coming to the Chicago-Detroit High-Speed rail network http://www.freep.com/article/2 0090313/NEWS06/90313078/1008/n ews/Positive+Train+Control+tec hnology+to+be+installed+on+tra ins+by+2015
Biden swears by Amtrak
http://features.csmonitor.com/ politics/2009/03/13/oops-vice- president-biden-swears-by-amtr ak/
Only a blindfolded idiot would demand the destruction of a train station(no matter how bad it is) in the age when trains and railroad infrastructure have been glided as the future and security of our prosperity. To simply replace it with another stripmall/parking lot in a sea of empty stripmalls is comparable to trading a gold brick for a real brick. When it is connected to the high-speed rail line in-between Toronto and Chicago the place will be worth a fortune. I think the owner knows this too and knows when the time comes it doesn't matter how much of a shithole it is that we will still pay dearly for it. |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3588
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 10:34 pm: | |
I'm not sure why the MCS would be a priority...it's not like it's going to fall on passers-by, like some downtown buildings....for years I saw it out my window, and it didn't bother me; even in it's present state it is still beautiful.
What did bother me was that a billionaire owns it and nobody requires him to do any maintenance...And the idea that public money would be used to tear down a billionaire's property is absurd.
A much better use of demo money would be to raze vast swaths of abandoned houses in areas like Brightmoor... |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 4282
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 10:41 pm: | |
My take is the same as some others: if the city see it as a nuisance, make the owner use his own money to tear it down. Barring that, the thing should stand and the city should bleed Matty for all he's worth. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1234
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 11:59 pm: | |
"I think this is the best idea yet Cockrel has come up with. There are more posibilities with it gone then just letting it sit and rot."
You're missing the point. It's not the job of the City of Detroit to knock down a building owned by a wealthy individual who can well afford to knock it down himself, if that's what he wants to see happen. I don't want to see MCS come down but I'll be damned if federal stimulus money is going to be wasted like this. If it happens, it's nothing more than a payoff to a well-connected, wealthy individual. |
Russix
Member
Username: Russix
Post Number: 207
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 11:59 pm: | |
http://www.examiner.com/x-4794-Detroit-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m3d11-Detoit-mass-transit-our-future-in-high-speed-rail-and-light-rail-commuting
^"Taking my own, even more imaginitve (and costly) step into the future, why not open the Michigan Central Depot back up as the main railway entrance to Detroit? This grand old beauty of a building could ideally be brought back to life as a hotel and shopping destination for rail passengers and travelers just back from Canada via the Ambassador Bridge. This rail corrider also passes near Metro Airport, so why not make a railroad stop in Romulus and bring travelers into Detroit by high speed rail from the airport to the Rail Depot as a great welcoming gateway into the downtown? Link the Woodward light rail system
to the Rail Depot and bus service, and commuters would have an unprecedented number of options for getting from one destination to another. Not that we would abandon our cars at all, of course, but we do need more transportation options. It will make commuting easier and bring more jobs and workers into the city and suburbs. Visitors from other cities with mass transit would find more ways to see the city and thus give more options for getting around to more points of interest, and thus spending more tourist dollars." |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4408
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 12:04 am: | |
It's unacceptable for public funds to be used to demolish a privately owned building, let alone a landmark. Plain and simple. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3853
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 12:05 am: | |
I don't think the city of Detroit should be using public money to tear down any commercial structure, let alone one owned by a billionaire. How many new building projects have come to Detroit as a result of the city tearing down a structure with public funds? Bass Ackwards. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 1403
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 12:34 am: | |
Frankly, building a high-speed rail station, or expanding what's there, directly attached to the Woodward light rail, is the best plan possible from a practical standpoint for the DET/CHI link. The centre and the layout of the city have changed, I can tell you as someone who is going to use both of these things regularly for business that's the setup I prefer.
I vehemently disagree with the use of stimulus dollars this way, but I also vehemently disagree with incentive packages. I personally think you should just make your damn tax rate competitive instead of playing favourites.
But we don't have a free market in this country, the government constantly picks the winners and losers, and you just have to accept it and move on or go broke (unless you can make money as a pundit bitching about it, and I've not figured that out yet).
Ten years ago I would naively get indignant, but experience has taught me these situations are not going to change, and the practical person in me sadly says goodbye MCS.
I am very glad I got to have a couple little memories in there as a kid. My dad took me on a train trip to Ann Arbor and back just to see the station before it closed. |
Urbanoutdoors
Member
Username: Urbanoutdoors
Post Number: 1121
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 1:05 am: | |
So as a Corktown resident who has talked with many other corktown residents the results are mixed. Some want it down some don't... I for one want it preserved at all costs... I think that even in its current state is a much more magnificent building than anything built in this city in the last 50 years... If we demolish MCS we are just adding to the precident that if I am a billionaire I can just let my historic gems root away and then have the city come in and foot the bill once it is almost to the point of being beyond repair... Demolition by neglect is one of Detroit's biggest problems and needs to be addressed head on.
If I had my way Detroit would look at examples of massive structures that have been renovated "Green" Such as the IHM Motherhouse in Monroe... Then Apply these principles to the whole corridor around roosevelt park and use it as a way to train a green workforce and jumpstart new green industry in Detroit... Yes it would be costly to do but if done in a way to promote "green living" it would be huge and the Press and new business that would be created would far outway any cost that would be incured on such a project... That entire area has all the tools to make it work and instead of looking to the past and our culture of demolition we should look towards a future of green preservation; incorporating Green Building, Business, energy, Transit, and Living. |
Bragaboutme
Member
Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 636
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 1:08 am: | |
Ok Bear, we both know there are thriving businesses at warren and Cadieux, and yes this building is in the backyard of residence in Cork and Mexican town.
This building is roughly 500,000sq feet, a size compared to the Book at 11,000sq feet. This is a dreamers paradise because of its sheer size one can only speculate what they would do if they owned it. It took the Book 200,000,000 to get renovated. So I can't begin to imagine what it would cost to fully restore a structure of this size and I'm sure if you had Mattys' money you would think twice about sinking that kind of money on hopes and dreams.
No you can't just do one part of the building at one time, especially the base(that's like mopping the floor before you clean your cabinets and counter top), it makes no sense. The perfect ending for this building would be to see if you could save some parts of the base of the building first. That would be a Concrete plan. Then start to look at how many tracks in the rear are still in use, others would have to go. Then look at the layout of the land you have saved. With that land you develope. Sitting here blaming Matty won't help. The reason there is so much vacant land in Detroit is because people have come accustom to it. We are used to seeing it vacant and can't imagine anything else being on that land because we've seen it vacant for so long. The change comes when the land is being put to good use, and the MCS (as it stands now) is the main thing that's standing in the way of progress in that area.
I think Light Rail, High speed rail could come down the line, but how would the auto companies make their bottom line. So Right now that would be tentative. The numbers don't lie. If money could be made trust me it would be put in place, there is a reason the only primary transportation around here is the automobile. Trust me they're trying their hardest to keep alternative meens of transportation out of the equation.
I think you're missing the point. I don't know what type of deal the city has going with Matty, and I'm sure it's more complex than we will ever know. What I do know is Cockrel is spelling it out somewhat by saying it needs to come down and federal funds need to be used. I would guess that it's more to the story than Matty just withdrawing his money and making it happen. I think Mattys' has done more for this city then we know and that's why he's getting special treatment. So that would be my suggestion for the MCS. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1236
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 1:30 am: | |
"I think Mattys' has done more for this city then we know and that's why he's getting special treatment."
Do we have a city councilmember in the house? What kind of nutty thinking is this? I can't believe that people who have 2 brain cells actually think like this.
Look about you. What has Matty done? This is nothing more than what I stated before, it's a payoff to a well-connected, wealthy individual who owns property in the city (that he doesn't maintain or secure until dead people end up on the front page of the papers). |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 4284
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 1:33 am: | |
11,000 must be a typo of some sort for the Book Cadillac. The B-C has about 715,000 sq ft of gross space. The Michigan Central Station has about 750,000 sq ft of gross spae.
And, again, there is not a single convincing argument for spending city, state, or federal money to bring down the building that a billionaire owner could bring down on his home, and that argument made of above is ridiculously unconvincing. |
Reddog289
Member
Username: Reddog289
Post Number: 979
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 1:52 am: | |
I would love for that place to be renovated, Yet another part of me likes it the way it is. I have never been in that building and most likely never will.My favorite use that I can remember was during the first bidding for the casinos.
I belive that Trump was involved with that bid.You know how that went. I don't want a penny outta my check to clean up that mess.The way the MCS sits it is either an "eyesore or a work of art".
The more I read on this site the more I learn.But sometimes I wish I'd never known.Either way it is out of my hands. |
Pam
Member
Username: Pam
Post Number: 5114
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 8:28 am: | |
For those of you who say you are switching your vote for mayor because of this-what does Dave Bing have to say on the issue? Has he had anything to say on demolition vs. preservation?
(Of any building, not just the MCS.) |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 207
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 9:10 am: | |
Well, yesterday, I took two (rather) angry seconds and sent an email to Mayor Cockrel. This morning, there was an email from the Mayor in my inbox. I post both my email, and his response (please note, his email was sent at 3:46 AM).
My Email:
quote:If the use of stimulus money to tear down the Michigan Central comes to fruition, you will have lost my vote. Let Marty MORON take care of his OWN building with his OWN money, not MY tax dollars!
I could think of 20 expenditures of greater importance to the City. I live in the Grand Circus Park area. For one, how about using some of the money to make sure ALL the lights are working? And make sure they stay working. I know that sounds like a strange request, but it sure would be nice.
Why the City finds it necessary to coddle these slumlords is beyond me. Why not fine them using already on the books BLIGHT LAWS? Half of Detroit would stand up and cheer.
SOMEBODY has to stand up to these owners (Broderick Tower, AAA, UA, MCS, etc.). I had hoped that someone was you.
This is the response I recieved from the Mayor:
quote:I want to begin by thanking you for your e-mail.
You raise valid points that I want to address.
Here's the problem. Manny Moroun, the owner of the Michigan Central Depot, has already shown that he has no intention of taking "care of his OWN
building with his OWN money" as you said.
Nor can Detroit continue to wait for him to grow a conscience. His building has been an eyesore for the better part of 30 years. It is also a major safety hazard.
Do not forget that a dead body was found in an attached warehouse about two months ago - something that made the front page of the Detroit News.
Our plan, if accepted is to use stimulus dollars to target this and other large structures that are beyond repair. If the Obama White House accepts this Detroit would use the stimulus dollars as upfront cash to demolish these structures. Following that, we would pursue legal action against the owners to recoup the demolition costs.
So in essence, though tax dollars would be used to take down these buildings up front - the owners would still end up paying at the back end because they would be forced to reimburse these costs to the City.
This is actually identical to what the city does now with owners who fail to maintain single- family homes that are beyond repair. We knock them down and bill the owner.
So why don't we do the same with the Train Station you may ask? The answer is that the costs of demolishing a structure of that size up-front is so massive it would exceed the city's entire demolition budget for a single-fiscal year
I have seen estimates for demolition of the Train Station that run as high as $14 million.
If approved, the use of stimulus dollars to demolish such structures would give us the ability to go after massive eyesores.
Personally, I would like to see structures like the Train Station rehabilitated and placed back into productive use of some sort. This is the other value of reciept of stimulus dollars for this purpose.
If the owners of large structures who have been scoffing at our laws know that we have the financial means to demolish their buildings that can be used as leverage to force them to get off their duffs and develop viable plans for putting these structures back into productive use AT THEIR OWN COST where possible.
Under this scenario everyone wins. The building is salvaged and put into use and the city can direct its funds elsewhere.
I hope this addresses your concerns.
Sincerely,
Ken Cockrel, Jr.
Mayor
I have to rush out now, but I'll let you all discuss.
(Message edited by gotdetroit on March 14, 2009) |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1239
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 11:12 am: | |
"If the owners of large structures who have been scoffing at our laws know that we have the financial means to demolish their buildings that can be used as leverage to force them to get off their duffs and develop viable plans for putting these structures back into productive use AT THEIR OWN COST where possible."
Interesting spin. What's KC Jr. track record when it comes to preservation? This is all just happy talk if you don't have any intention of actually putting the muscle to Moroun and Ilitch and others in the destruction by neglect crowd. |
Brg
Member
Username: Brg
Post Number: 63
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 11:51 am: | |
Very good points being discussed there. Have any thought about environmental cleanup? People wonder why Detroit have so many vacant buildings and lots? It would cost a fortune to cleanup the land and that is why the MCD still stands. Want proof of this: take a trip east on Jefferson and gaze on the MacArthur Bridge and notice the empty land to the right of the bridge. Yep, the former Uniroyal plant. Before the tire plant, they built ovens there. The land is so polluted, it would cost millions for cleanup. Detroit paid a huge cost to be a leader in the Industrial Revolution.
Detroit should not use stimulus money to tear down structures like the MCD. Moroun knows that he can't do anything with that property and he can't sell it because no one will buy it so the building stands and it will standing for another 20 years give or take. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1969
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 12:09 pm: | |
quote:By the way, I live near St. Annes church (used to live in Brush Park). I ride over the bridge and every time I think of the possibilities for that whole area without this impediment.
Right, if MCS were to come down then everything would be perfect in that area.
I mean, just look at all of the development that happened around Grand Circus Park and along Washington Blvd. once they got rid of the Statler Hilton!
Oh, and let's not forget about all of the development that happened after they got rid of the Madison-Lenox. That was a brilliant move!
Shall I continue? |
Russix
Member
Username: Russix
Post Number: 208
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 12:26 pm: | |
$200 Million restored the Book into a world class luxury hotel. How much to seal the elements out, clean up the exterior, and operate a rail station? Cockrel estimates $14 million to demolish, MDOT has allocated $15 Million to build a new station in New Center. If someone can make a case on how $29 million could be used to turn MCS into the Intermodal this might work. I think Cockrel should create more publicity on how the City plans to demolish MCS and then bill the owner. This might be the key to wrestling it away from it's current owner, pay heavily to restore it, pay heavily to demolish it, or donate it to MDOT for a tax credit. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 850
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 12:51 pm: | |
I got the same letter back from Cockrel, with a few minor changes that lead me to believe Cockrel actually wrote it instead of a PR flack w/o a clue who I am.
I think the mayor makes a valid argument..and the reality of the situation is that we can no more "force" Matty to rehab the building than we can force him to pay up-front for demolition.
We CAN legally demolish the building as an eyesore/safety hazard, and force him to pay the bill..and we can use the threat of demolition to light a fire under Matty's ass if he does intend to rehab the building, speeding up his decision to do so. |
W_chicago
Member
Username: W_chicago
Post Number: 103
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 1:28 pm: | |
I got the same email from Mr. Cockrel.
Looks like he copies and pastes. At least he replies at all though. |
Malcovemagnesia
Member
Username: Malcovemagnesia
Post Number: 120
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 1:41 pm: | |
The fact Cockrel is accessible via (and responds to) e-mail is amazing for a big city mayor. I can't imagine K.K. or Coleman (had e-mail existed for the common folks at that time) ever doing that. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1972
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 1:54 pm: | |
quote:If the owners of large structures who have been scoffing at our laws know that we have the financial means to demolish their buildings that can be used as leverage to force them to get off their duffs and develop viable plans for putting these structures back into productive use AT THEIR OWN COST where possible.
There is already a means to for such owners to get off their duffs. It's the City's Building Code. We already have the legal authority to levy fines against these individuals and to compell them to make improvements their properties. All that's lacking is the willingness to start issuing citations.
In the case of designated historic properties, there is an added muscle behind that. The property owner is eligible for certain state & federal tax credits. In return, if they allow their property to deteriorate to a certain point then it's called "demolition by neglect".
At a certain point with a historic property that is being demolished by neglect, the City can step in, commission its own contractors to do the repairs and the property owner is sued for payment + assorted fines, legal fees and penalties.
This has been proven to be successful in cities around the country. Unfortunately, instead of following that model, Detroit has often chosen to reinvent the wheel - and has very limited success in doing so. |
Busterwmu
Member
Username: Busterwmu
Post Number: 540
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 2:19 pm: | |
Dear Mayor Cockrel:
I'll have an email for you later this evening about your announcement to try to get federal dollars to demolish historically and culturally significant structures such at the Michigan Central Station.
In the meantime, I'm still waiting for a reply to the letter I mailed you in December about the proposed demolition of the Lafayette Building downtown. I can hardly imagine someone who championed the City of Detroit Green Task Force is OK with letting these structures - empty and unsightly but repairable with a great vision - fill our landfills. (you can't incinerate stone, after all).
I'm still waiting on my reply.
-Busterwmu |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2111
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 3:09 pm: | |
"I got the same letter back from Cockrel, with a few minor changes that lead me to believe Cockrel actually wrote it instead of a PR flack w/o a clue who I am."
Rest assured that it IS one of Cockrel's communications staff doing the writing, but with final approval from Cockrel himself. That's how these responses are crafted. |
W_chicago
Member
Username: W_chicago
Post Number: 104
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 3:13 pm: | |
Couldn't 14 million dollars be used in better ways? Like honestly what will really happen that is positive as a result of spending that much money on demolition?
I can think of countless places that money could be better spent. Why not use 14 million to repair broken windows, clean up the property, clean up the stone, etc and prepare it to be "development ready"? |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 775
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 3:26 pm: | |
Sell DDOT for just one dollar.
That would instantly raise over $70 Million per year and result in improved public bus service with the remaining $70 Million per year DDOT gets from the state.
Privately run transportation companies operate at less then half the current cost of DDOT.
Then use the savings to enforce building codes and go after the owner of the MCS and the many slumlords all over the city and those who just do not care at all about Detroit and Livonia. |
Orange_barrel
Member
Username: Orange_barrel
Post Number: 95
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 10:30 pm: | |
"Wonderful idea!!! I mean, just look at all of the good things that have happened as a result of the Hudson's demolition, the Madison-Lenox demolition, the Statler demolition, et cetera."
I agree with you, Fnemecek. History tells us what we will be left with if we tear down MCS. Another vacant field. And God knows we need more of those. |
Bragaboutme
Member
Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 637
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 7:58 am: | |
Yea, god forbid they tear something down and we get a comerica park, ford field, New Y.M.C.A, and other countless developments since hudsons was demo in 98'. Just imagine all of the empty buildings we would still have standing in the way of progress. Who'd a thought that would be possible. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1244
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 9:58 am: | |
"Just imagine all of the empty buildings we would still have standing in the way of progress."
Good thing that Chuck Forbes didn't hew to your short-sighted view of what is progress. Otherwise, we wouldn't have either the Elwood Bar or the Gem Theater which would have been destroyed for Ilitch's Field of Dreams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E lwood_Bar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G em_Theatre |
Staticstate
Member
Username: Staticstate
Post Number: 33
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 1:12 pm: | |
how come the mayor doesn't seem to address enforcing the building code in any of these responses? |
Sciencefair
Member
Username: Sciencefair
Post Number: 152
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 2:05 pm: | |
Bragaboutme: Comerica Park and Ford Field were exceptional projects, I would not argue that they are an asset to the city. However, you have to understand that there will not be any more multi-million dollar sports venues coming to Detroit anytime soon (save for maybe a new Wings arena), so the land from any demolition will end up another surface parking lot or trash ridden field.
In this economy, there is no financial gain to demolition in Detroit, there is an abundance of available land and plenty of existing building stock. Need office space? Rent out one of the half-filled buildings downtown, why pay to demolish and build new? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4559
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 2:07 pm: | |
I thought the stimulus money was for projects that would *grow* the economy, not for subsidizing billionaire slumlords. |
Russix
Member
Username: Russix
Post Number: 212
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 2:24 pm: | |
Imagine Hudsons was saved. The rehab cost to turn the building into mixed use residential and office loft units was estimated the same as demolishing it. We spent the same amount of money and got a big bang, lots of dust, and a big hole to show for it. The Parking Deck was extra cost, and any future development(like 50 years to redevelop the Kales Block) will be extra cost. Imagine the urban population density if both Staler and Hudsons were afforable residential loft units(like $500/month). You would have alot more demand for retail, alot more. The stadiums would be insignicant compared to the potential revenue from an actual increase in population that lives there and doesn't just come and visit once every blue moon to see a game. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3663
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 2:40 pm: | |
I got my form reply. I guess his argument is that with all this money, we can knock down buildings much more easily. And once building owners know that we'll knock down their buildings and come after them with the bill, they'll be forced to fix up their buildings so they don't get knocked down. Or at least that's what he appears to be saying.
I give up. I have no horse left in this race. What a shame.  |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3664
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 3:03 pm: | |
Mr. Mayor,
Thank you for your reply, but I disagree. You seem to be saying that the way to get the enforcement of building codes done is to get approval to use federal money to knock down buildings (then come to the owners later with the bill for their buildings' demolition) at least in the hopes that they take the city seriously and pour money into their buildings to bring them up to code rather than see the demolished. That is some of the most unusual reasoning I've ever heard. We need to use federal funds to demolish these buildings so that the owners will save them from demolition? At best, disingenuous; at worst, business as usual.
Everybody wins? I don't think so. Demolition contractors win. Preservationists may or may not win. Building owners will tie it up in court, or have their businesses declare bankruptcy and elude the city's collection efforts.
If instead we were able to use federal funds to begin cultivating a business community that knows how to mothball, rehab, and reclaim our buildings, we'd have a viable source of jobs. What's more, there is tremendous energy in these "eyesores." The greenest building is the one that's already there! Are we to use precious resources to wind up with a gravel lot so that some builder can come in and expend MORE energy to put up a building with a 40-year life span? I am not down with this program.
What we've done in this city for the last 60 years is use public money to demolish buildings in the hope of spurring economic growth. Instead of spurring growth, we've destroyed neighborhoods, alienated communities, ruined our landmarks, and fattened demolition contractors. Instead of following the old model of "demolish it and they will come," I had hoped the Cockrel administration would be willing to see solutions other than the wrecking ball. I can see now how naive I was.
Good luck demolishing our heritage. I'm sure somebody will build something, sometime, on the empty lots where the Tuller, Statler, Hudson's, Madison-Lenox and other buildings once stood. If only we had all the money to demolish them then, they might still be standing! Outrageous! |
Young_detroiter
Member
Username: Young_detroiter
Post Number: 73
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 8:07 pm: | |
I have always entertained the idea of the train depot becoming a tourist gateway for the Mexicantown district. Perhaps, it could house shops and complement the other Michigan Welcome Center recently built nearby at the bridge. |
Thames
Member
Username: Thames
Post Number: 420
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 8:53 pm: | |
^^I like it!^^ |
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