  Mccarus Member Username: Mccarus Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2006 |
Webster's Dictionary defines racism below. Function:noun Date: 1933 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination Look at racism going back 3-4 centuries. Whites created it to justify the slave trade in west africa, (Elmina Castle on the Ghanaian coast for example dates to 1482). Whites continued it to justify Christian missionary activity that destroyed local cultures. Whites continued it to justify colonization that was done to control natural resources. Read Wall Street Journal Reporter Doug Blackmon's book Slavery by Another Name. His 2008 book shows how a near form of slavery existed in the South until WW2. The average black family has 1/10 the wealth of the average white family in the U.S. Monica, BRC, Joanne, The Kwamster and the Shrine of the Black Madonna crowd don't genuinely believe that blacks or Africans are superior to whites. Yes they might. But they're just mimicking whites. Even if whites formally gave up those beliefs in the 1960's and 1970's, that's not enough time for black Americans to have unlearned what whites taught them. A bunch of stupid reasons why people with one skin color is superior to the other. Until whites do alot of things, like say sorry, individually, and collectively, Monica's style will be appealing to a certain constituency. | ||
Mschievous Member Username: Mschievous Post Number: 305 Registered: 04-2008 |
Mccarus, I disagree in part. If every white person stood up, put their hand over their heat and GENUINELY said, "I'm sorry for all the wrongs (either real or perceived) that have been perpetrated on you", the Monicas, BRC, Jesses, Als, Marthas, and 'other Kwames' would still attract an audience. Over the years, poverty pimps have played the race card so often that I think we've lost sight of what real racism is. We've begun to use the term 'racist' for anything we (both black & white) don't like. | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 117 Registered: 02-2009 |
Mccarus, Slavery existed prior to the slave trade in Africa. Various communities have made slaves of people of different races, or even the same race, since early in man's recorded history. The slave trade in Africa might not have been successful without the help of African tribes who sold those they had captured from other tribes into slavery. Yes racism and slavery were ways to control resources. But if everyone turned the same color tomorrow, many humans would find other ways to define who is like them and who is not like them, so they can band together with those like them and control resources. White people do not owe Black people an apology for acts they themselves did not commit. If there are those on either side (living of course) who have indeed committed acts of racism, they owe an apology to the people they committed those acts against, and amends if possible. But a truly level playing field is all I can think of that is "owed". | ||
Mccarus Member Username: Mccarus Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2006 |
Locke09, All 3 of your first paragraphs are true. The 4th graph is the difficult one for us all. The playing field is not level. It may never be. White privilege remains for us. We benefit from it everyday. Apologizing for other whites in history is a way of showing compassion. It's a way of compromise. It won't level the playing field. Blacks and black Detroit are responsible for themselves. What suggestions do you have for repairing Detroit, saving the suburbs from the same build and abandon pattern that hit the city, and getting along better with each other? | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1327 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:Those are out of order. The third is the solution to the first two. | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 118 Registered: 02-2009 |
Unfortunately, I'm pessimistic about human nature. But, I would say it must begin with Detroiters, all Detroiters who want it, having access to a quality education. A parent should be able to take their child to the nearest school in the neighborhood and be assured that their child will get a quality education. If they have that access in elementary, middle and high school, then college (or a trade school) will just be a natural next step. Another big problem for Detroit is the unemployment rate. You will always have a mixture of people from different socio-economic levels in an urban city. But it seems to me that there simply are not enough middle-class homeowners remaining in Detroit to sustain its neighborhoods. There are others who understand the build and abandon patterns better than I do. But I know both blacks and whites who talk of moving "further out" as they perceive that their community is getting what they perceive as "undesirables", AKA people moving in from Detroit. I look forward to someone changing my pessimistic mind  | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 784 Registered: 05-2006 |
Locke09 you are correct with your statements in post 117. However those statements should be put in context. Traditional African societies practiced slavery as with most cultures going back to the start of recorded history. Chattel slavery was a foreign concept to these cultures. Most of these cultures understood slavery to be a type of indentured servitude. Something that was much less severe and could over time be bought out of. There are also stories about how some cultures once word got back to them about the kind of slavery they were selling those people into stopped the practice. | ||
Ljbad89 Member Username: Ljbad89 Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2007 |
Blksoul_x, is that you? I didn't know you had a second account. (jk) (Message edited by ljbad89 on March 18, 2009) | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 119 Registered: 02-2009 |
Firstandten, You are right. Thanks for catching that. | ||
Leannam1989 Member Username: Leannam1989 Post Number: 225 Registered: 06-2008 |
I'm white. I'm sorry for all the horrible things that happened to blacks. That said, I see no reason for whites to have to apologize or make up for what our great-great grandparents did. I don't know if I had slave-owning ancestors or not. I do think there are stereotypes about all kinds of people. That's unfortunate. And racism is not exclusive to one race. There's certainly no way to have whites pay blacks for what happened. For a few reasons. 1) not all blacks in this country had ancestors here before the Civil War 2) of those that did, not all the blacks here before the Civil War were slaves 3) Probably many blacks in this country who had slave ancestors were also descendants of a white slave owner. 4) There were black slave owners. Not many, but they existed. Some free blacks fought for the Confederacy. And less than 2% of southern whites owned the majority of slaves (forget where I read that). 5) What about people of mixed race? 6) Are we going to compensate the Native Americans (those that are left)? My nose is Native American (I must have Native American in me somewhere). Do I pay myself? I think I have Irish ancestors. Weren't the Irish poorly treated in this country for a time? Again, do I pay myself? I do feel that there are race issues in this country that need to be dealt with. That said, I don't see any reason for a person to apologize for what his ancestors did. I could say that I am sorry that it happened, but I am not sorry in the sense that it is not my fault. We need to accept our history, the good and the bad, and work toward a better tomorrow. There is no American race. There's a German race, a French race. What is the American race? Even in the beginning of this country, when the only ones with rights were white men, our country was still a mix of German, English, French, Scottish, and Dutch (I think Italian and Irish came into the picture more later) races. The first blacks brought into this country were indentured servants. They served their 7 years or however long it was, then they were given some land and their freedom. Heathenism, inherited lifelong slavery, was later introduced. Some farmers started bringing in slaves rather than indentured servants because slaves could not claim the land. Our history is convoluted, complicated, and sad but it's history. We need to accept our history, deal with it, and learn from it. Can't we all just get along? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4297 Registered: 10-2003 |
I really didn't want to get into this, but I can't let some of those "many" and "most" assumptions go uncorrected above, Leannam1989. The two most egregious errors: 1. Most all blacks ancestory does date back before the Civil War. The cross-Atlantic slave trade was halted long before the Civil War began. 2. Just before the Civil War 90% of blacks were slaves. The remainder that happened to be free weren't treated equal under the law. Blacks weren't formally and fully emancipated to join the greater society as equals until the 1960's, and that includes mixed race people of which the law made no difference of, and I'm sure you know that. Now, I'm not going to involve myself into what all that means for today, but the whole idea that nothing should have been (should be) done because some people weren't slaves and some were of mixed race is a convenient cop out. I mean, what your saying amounts to you saying "only 90%", which I'm sure even you would say sounds ridiculous. The whole "since we can't be 100% sure of anything, it precludes us from doing anything, at all." That kind of defense wouldn't fly in even the loosest court, and it distresses me to hear the same, old cop out, again and again. To be sure, I'm not for reparations in the traditional sense of the word, but I'm equally tired of the "its so complicated a history, that we're not even going to be bothered with attempting to unraveling it" complex. (Message edited by lmichigan on March 18, 2009) | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 785 Registered: 05-2006 |
To bring this conversation back to a local level, I believe we are looking at least a couple of generations before we can get beyond race in discussing the future of Metro Detroit. One of the factors is the economy here. Nothing makes the racism come out quicker in a group of people if they feel that they are competing for a piece of an increasing smaller economic pie on an unlevel playing field. There are still too many people who remember just how segregated this city was, as a result there is too much mistrust. You have too many old school politicans on the city council who know by throwing the race card out there they are connecting with their base. They know its a tried and true method that plays out all over metro Detroit although we are seeing it less now days. BTW, Leannam some Native Americans are being compensated by the government. If they are lucky enough to belong to a tribe that has Federal recognition its a good possiblity that they either work for or have an ownership stake in a casino | ||
Rid0617 Member Username: Rid0617 Post Number: 416 Registered: 03-2008 |
Guess my wife would want the white apology first. She is one half Cherokee Indian and the whites didn't treat them real well either. She lost half of her family on the trail of tears. | ||
Rid0617 Member Username: Rid0617 Post Number: 417 Registered: 03-2008 |
Even in Biblical times the Jews were slaves to the Egyptians | ||
Tkshreve Member Username: Tkshreve Post Number: 775 Registered: 07-2006 |
quote: Although there is nothing inaccurate or misleading about the statement above, it is pretty much everything that is wrong with the city and our society in general. As long as our society continues to find new ways to exploit racism for ulterior motives, we will never see an end to this debate. It's kinda like whack-a-mole: If you pay attention to one angle of racism, another angle is going to pop up. The machine needs to be unplugged. I also agree with the idea presented above that - even if we all had the same skin color, people would still (need to) find differences between each other. That is simply human nature. | ||
Benfield Member Username: Benfield Post Number: 152 Registered: 06-2008 |
This is all very interesting but irrelevant. Whatever cheap populist appeal is inherent in the ideology of Monica Conyers, Shrine of the Black Madonna, etc it is counter-productive to addressing the many real issues facing Detroit, black America, and the nation as a whole. Equally counter-productive are attempts to equate various injustices. The Jews in Egypt, etc etc. Nothing is more nauseating than people acting out the line scene from PCU. There's been a lot of injustice in the world. Also not helpful are attempts to gloss over or explain away the fact that black Americans were enslaved, discriminated, and otherwise treated horribly during the first 300 years of the American experience. There's no mitigation, no excuse, no rationalization that can explain away or justify that history. I don't care how hard D. W. Griffith attempted to prove otherwise. We are all stuck here now. No one is getting on boats to go back to Europe or Africa. If we have to wait until all the wrongs of the past have been sorted out before we can move forward with improving the future, then all we are ensuring future generations will be left with a bigger mess than the one we are living with now. (Message edited by Benfield on March 18, 2009) | ||
Det_ard Member Username: Det_ard Post Number: 51 Registered: 02-2009 |
Does a biracial person need to look in the mirror and apologize to themselves? After they've done that will life somehow be better or less of a struggle? | ||
Bragaboutme Member Username: Bragaboutme Post Number: 638 Registered: 02-2008 |
I think what we see today is a planned oppression of Detroit. I can't speak on history before I was born, but in the last 20 plus years I have actually witnessed the effects this has had on blacks in Detroit. White flight, as I saw it, was a detriment because of what was left in their wake. Many still made money off of black residence and still do to this day through various businesses. This economic slavery is what has brewed the anger for the suburbs. I don't have anger, but many older Detroiters tend to not trust people from the suburbs because of this. Examples of this economic slavery can be seen in the amount of jobs whites have held over blacks in this area. I have a good job, but at my job I see more whites making more money than blacks. I'm not angered by this I'm just observant of this fact. With this I can understand why some may not understand the effect this has on this region as a whole for so many years. I don't wish every white person would appologize for slavery, but I do expect them to at least tell the truth about the situation. Black have gotten more and more opportunities over the years, but it will never equal the amount of whites this is just fact. This is true when you look at the perceived power vs. actual power. Detroit has some power in its local government, the actual power is at the State level. This state has roughly 9million people maybe 800,000 are African American? I don't know the breakdown of wealth but the scale isn't tipped in our favor, and won't be for some time. The solution I believe would be to make sure Detroit gets the most money from the State level to create jobs for more Detroiters to compete and create provisions for local businesses to grow to where blacks own these businesses. Too many whites have owned Detroit from an economic standpoint for too long, allow enough people to make money (not based on race), and compete for jobs then Detroit will hold its own. That's my solution. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1735 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: This is wrong. Racism has history way before this. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 2833 Registered: 10-2003 |
White people invented racism? This thread is a joke! There are too numerous examples of racism by all cultures, people and sex to even warrant such a stupid thread such as this. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 527 Registered: 08-2006 |
Leanman, I read now for the umpteenth time, that on the Trans Atlantic slave route, only 4 % of slaves removed from Africa ended up in the colonies, starting in 1613 a.d. 96% of all slave trade took place south, south of Fla, i.e, South America, Haita, Dominican Republic, Jamacia, etc... Kinda like the most of the slaves went south, and were instilled in certain areas where they became the majority. Some former villages were taken and made home for many new slaves. I just wonder how blacks who live in these areas, such as Brazil, the islands, Jamacia, etc, if they have ill feelings towards the various groups who sold their ancestors from native villages and the individuals who took them away Again, most people don't realize it was right at 1% who owned slaves, and no ,the government never owned a single slave....some one mentioned reparations from the govt I am Greek, my culture was stolen by the Romans.We were made slaves, and lion bait at the areanas... Am I mad....nope, just part of history.....I am not going to hold Romans responsible for wars from yesteryear. I will say, Greeks still harbor ill feelings towards Italians/Romans......... I wonder when we will ever be able to get along.....Jane | ||
Ocean2026 Member Username: Ocean2026 Post Number: 162 Registered: 11-2008 |
I'm from the east coast but live on the Texas Coast. This sounds odd but race and ethnicity are a much bigger issue to you guys than to us. Back home it was important whether you were Polish or Italian - here no one talks about it and so I never know. Back home everyone would ask "Are you Jewish?" Here we only have about 10 in our county of 25,000 and no one cares. When I walked door-to-door running against the Pres of the School Board, I joked a few times that I would get the Jewish vote, but no one seemed to pay attention and I got elected. IN another county nearby I was elected DA -same thing. My son is Hispanic-irrelevant. I do believe there still might be some prejudice between Black and White but if so it seems much less than back East. Our Texas Chief Justice of the Supreme Court is a Black elected official. Of course in Texas we are just as accepting of idiots - look who we elected President twice. | ||
Bosch Member Username: Bosch Post Number: 66 Registered: 11-2008 |
I think the word racism should be reserved for situations when there is violence due to skin color, and bias should be used in cases of discrimination or slander based on skin color. There is not a lot of difference between ethnic vs ethnic bias compared to black vs white bias. I suggest dropping the skin color and african background basis for "racism" and substitute ethnicity, including all peoples. | ||
Savannah Member Username: Savannah Post Number: 124 Registered: 02-2008 |
Okay, keep it up and you're gonna get blacksoul in on the act...I still don't think he's real... | ||
Benfield Member Username: Benfield Post Number: 157 Registered: 06-2008 |
quote: Oh Jesus fucking Christ get over yourself. That happened thousands of years ago. Compare that to the situation of black America...54 years ago this summer Emmett Till smiled at a white woman. Because of his transgression he was was kidnapped, beaten, sodomized, and killed and his killers were acquitted. That the Romans did bad things to your pederast great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandparents (that is assuming you can actually trace your heritage back that far) isn't really relevant or comparable. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4302 Registered: 10-2003 |
I don't even know why folks bother bringing up pre-Enlightenment slavery and such as comparisons to post-Englightment chattel slavery. If people don't see why the total irony of self-proclaimed "enlightened" societies propping up slavery all the while they writing the words "all men are created equal" into their national constitution is not worse than pre-Enlightened socities that never claimed such moral authority for slavery, then I don't know what to say. It's always made me wonder if people are simply ignorant and have never really thought it through, or thought the issue through and still choose to make the comparison. Neither scenario is heartening. How anyone can compare, with a straight face, post-Englightened societies carrying out imperialism, slavery, and subsequently civil and human right violations in so-called democratic nations (and often in the name of the Christian god, no less) to antiquity is beyond me. They were both wrong, but that hardly means they were equally wrong. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 1366 Registered: 05-2006 |
How are people like myself, whose family came here in the 20th century as Polish immigrents, supposed to deal with "American Racism"? I judge each as an individual, nothing more, nothing less... | ||
Roadmaster49 Member Username: Roadmaster49 Post Number: 131 Registered: 01-2008 |
The whole 'race' issue became irrelevant in Detroit when African Americans became the majority by a long shot of the population of Detroit. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5400 Registered: 06-2004 |
and now many upper and middle class blacks have left the city, too - that says a lot, imho | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 528 Registered: 08-2006 |
Benfield, you stated "That happened thousands of years ago. Compare that to the situation of black America...54 years ago this summer Emmett Till smiled at a white woman Youre right, lets keep it currnet. It is horriffic that some one should be judged just by the color of his skin color that would make him a vicitm of a hate crime Heres some poor joe just working for a living, and look what he got for being the wrong skin color.....and yes, this is present, just like you stated we need to make it.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =_Mw2Xg0DELc&feature=PlayList& p=C449C4FBCB49C6CA&playnext=1& playnext_from=PL&index=35 heres another one......remember, they were the wrong skin color, just like Emmett... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =Oce3l90_Xrc a hate crime is wrong, regardless of what color the victim is...... | ||
Pablocruise75 Member Username: Pablocruise75 Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2009 |
Bo Diddley 'labelled' this whole mess the best, "The Plague" | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 124 Registered: 02-2009 |
quote: Racism is not just about numbers, it is also about power and resources. An example would be the old apartheid system in South Africa. Black Detroiters got the numbers, then the power and now where is the argument? Right. It is over control of the resources. This is why I believe it is wrong to underestimate the passion of people determined to hold on to resources. Present whatever logical argument you want, something basic in us tells us that if we don't control the resources we are powerless. Not too many people will be honest and tell you they care about control of resources, at the same time they are complaining about you not freely giving up the control. Well, I'll be honest. I fear not having control of resources. Not to mention that people can have racist attitudes against their own race as well. Just thought I'd throw that in. And please, I am not thinking of any specific people or specific circumstances at this time. quote: People, even black people, have left Detroit for all sorts of reasons. Some people I know who currently live in Southfield feel they need to move further from the Detroit borders because they see more and more people from Detroit moving to their neighborhoods and feel their neighborhoods are now changing. Which brings us back to the topic: How can we move beyond this? It won't stop with Detroit. I'm seeing Southfield become the next place people start fleeing from. As always, I could be wrong and welcome any input that might change my opinion. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5403 Registered: 06-2004 |
Historically, wealth and social standing tended to correspond quite directly with race and/or ethnicity. This isn't anywhere near as true any more. Although the race card still gets thrown around in local politics the real separator isn't race, it's wealth, and lack of wealth translates into all the issues Detroit is having. | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 126 Registered: 02-2009 |
I agree with you Lilpup. I guess I was mostly responding to the idea that racism ends once you become the majority of the population. I see control of resources as a component of what people view as "wealth". People might argue that the resources you are controlling aren't bringing you wealth, but it is a hard argument to make when it is all people perceive that they have left. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 1006 Registered: 04-2008 |
I'm not sorry for something I had no part in. And, if I had an ancestor that lost his life fighting for the Union in the Civil War, I'd be downright insulted. As for white people supposedly being in control of "Wealth", I think that wealthy black people owe me an apology. (sarcasm) | ||
Motownmark04 Member Username: Motownmark04 Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2006 |
I think that the City Council needs to understand that "white flight," as it is known, is all but over. It's just "flight" now. Everybody is leaving Detroit. I moved out of the city seven years ago, and virtually everybody on our block, whom we kept in touch with and socialized with frequently, have all left the city, too. High taxes, high insurance, low quality of life - who would want to live in such a place? | ||
Dissolvedgirl3 Member Username: Dissolvedgirl3 Post Number: 21 Registered: 09-2007 |
Totally agree with you MotownMark. It's a quality of life issue. The taxes are insane for the amount and quality of city services that are actually provided. It would be really nice to be able to call 911 in case of a non-fire emergency and get a timely response or in some cases one at all. But do you know what else is a huge factor that plays into many of the issues Detroit has? Apathy. Too many people are apathetic to the amount of crime and other nonsense that goes on. Politicians who continue to play the race card do so because some of their constituents still buy it! They are too out of the loop to realize it's the same bullsh*t Kwame used in his last State of the City address. Give me an eff-ing break. When people start playing an active role in their government, then we'll start to see some change. |
