 
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1279
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 3:32 pm: |    |
I'd double check that. |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 1045
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 3:33 pm: | |
As for national and international news, isn't this just a continuation of the trend toward "one source" reporting? You can pick up any number of papers from around the region/country and read the exact same Associated Press story.
As for local news, how much "new" news is there on a daily basis? A newspaper with less frequency should be adequate. |
Oldredfordette
Member
Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 5988
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 4:10 pm: | |
If you're interested, here are job opportunities at HuffPo
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ p/jobs-at-huffingtonpostcom.ht ml
There is, let's say an attitude, about blogs at the traditional dailies. If the traditional dailies were doing their job, instead of striving for higher returns on shares, the papers might not be in such terrible trouble. *this is aimed at management, not hard-working reporters, etc.* |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1280
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 4:40 pm: | |
Right. |
Bshea
Member
Username: Bshea
Post Number: 75
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 5:00 pm: | |
If the traditional dailies were doing their job, instead of striving for higher returns on shares, the papers might not be in such terrible trouble.
HuffPo and its ilk are never going to bring you something like the Free Press' reporting on Kilpatrick and the text messages. HuffPo is going to bring you bloggers giving their opinions about it, and links to the newspapers that do the work.
Today is a field day in Ann Arbor that are looking to get away with crimes like ripping off taxpayers. I have trouble believing a Web site with 1/10 of the staff of the A2 News is going to be able to police the city as its watchdog. |
Oldredfordette
Member
Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 5990
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 5:11 pm: | |
Right. So read my sentence again. HuffPo isn't slashing jobs, the traditional dailies are. Save your anger for the folks at fault.
Besides, you don't know if the big blogs or online news sites are going to step up or not. It remains to be seen. |
Drjeff
Member
Username: Drjeff
Post Number: 53
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 5:18 pm: | |
I've read the A2 News every day for the last 15 years. It was obvious they were heading in this direction- the entire paper is now the size one section (out of 5 or 6) used to be. I seriously don't know what the hell they were thinking by getting rid of so much content. All that would do is 1) alienate all the existing subscribers, and 2) prevent anyone new from subscribing because it's not worth it for so little product.
The problem is not that it is impossible to make a profit from newspapers any more. Profits may be down, but they are still profitable. It's that large companies own the newspapers, and all they care about is the bottom line, so everything that made the paper valuable to its readers gets thrown out. |
Servite76
Member
Username: Servite76
Post Number: 168
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 5:34 pm: | |
Drjeff, the circulation is still there, but the advertising revenue and newsprint cost are killing the papers. |
B24liberator
Member
Username: B24liberator
Post Number: 88
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 5:49 pm: | |
Servite76-- You have a valid point on costs. Does anyone remember the hub-bub over the cost of their new high-tech printing facility? I seem to recall questions over the cost of said facility, etc... |
E_hemingway
Member
Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1562
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 6:20 pm: | |
Does this mean Booth will be getting rid of MLive? That has to be one of the worst news websites ever. I am surprised its going with AnnArbor.com and not AnnArborNews.com. Booth has done a helluva job eroding the reputation/brand of the A2 News in recent years/decades but it's far from worthless. Maybe the A2 News brand is so tied to actual newspapers that management thought it would be better to start building a new brand?
BTW Bshea, I wouldn't be too critical of those "bloggers" on the new Internet news sites. Your publication recently hired one of them from Metromode (who also had previous newspaper experience) and the Ann Arbor Chronicle is run by a former business editor from the A2 News. It remains to be seen whether online only has the chops to step in and do the investigative reporting that was done by the newspapers. Also, the text-message story broke because someone handed it to the reporters, not because they uncovered it. That was an excellent piece of journalism, but it came to light because someone outside of the media wanted it out there. |
Oldredfordette
Member
Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 5992
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 6:35 pm: | |
I hope the blogs and news sites step up.
I think of the mid-90's, when all these papers were supposed to bring in a 25% return on investment, and now, when we could use a steady hand, we're floundering in our own greed. I could cry.
I used to go to the Gannett and Knight Ridder shareholder meetings and the idea that the gravy train would ever end was laughed at.
You could say the same thing about the Watergate story, couldn't you? |
E_hemingway
Member
Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1563
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 6:50 pm: | |
Yes, you could. I am not downplaying the work of the reporters in either case. I am just saying they didn't save the world alone, Charlie LeDuff style. I think that sometimes gets lost in the translation. |
Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 353
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 7:26 pm: | |
Damn, the ol' dog is going to miss walking to the mail box to get the paper in the morning if there's no paper there anymore.
I just can't see waking up, s&s, and eating Lucky Charms while logging onto the net. |
Bshea
Member
Username: Bshea
Post Number: 76
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 7:29 pm: | |
I wouldn't be too critical of those "bloggers" on the new Internet news sites.
I'm sure there are individuals who can do a wonderful job. Jim Hopkins who runs Gannett Blog deserves the Pulitzer for keep tabs on that company.
That said, journalism costs a lot of money. The Freep spent a ton on legal bills for the Kilpatrick stuff. I know of precious few blogs that can afford hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees.
I think to suggest a small number of people making min wage or less running blogs can replace daily newspapers is insane.
And everyone wants to do the Textgate stuff and make a name. That can bring money, I guess. But what about the other 99.9% of the newspaper and journalism? The chicken dinner news, the local fish fry notice, the police blotter, the court filings, etc. Who's going to compile and vet all that?
Because what I see is people believing all that stuff can be done for free or very little. It takes a lot of work and experience to run a newspaper. And a newspaper is more than a splashy sexy story.
This entire debate reminds me of a bit of history, when there was a sizeable group of people that believed a standing army was an evil thing and that America could be protected by citizen-soldier militias. That entire was eviscerated by right-thinking men like Washington.
I pray the newspaper industry finds its Washington. Our Republic is doomed if our news is reduced to the Daily Show and HuffPo-style blogs. So much will be lost and missed.
Why should people major in journalism in college if all they can expect is volunteer positions at some blog? Or min wage?
The thrill that brought so many people to this business was seeing their name on a story in the newspaper box on the street corner. You'd see people reading your story and talking about it. Newspapers had monopolies, for better or worse. |
Oldredfordette
Member
Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 5994
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 8:12 pm: | |
What if these blogs paid competitive dollar for journos? What if they were able to organize into the Newspaper Guild? Would you like them better?
A friend of mine interviewed for a copy editor job at HuffPo, the job started at $34,000. (she didn't get it).
Listen, I'm watching my job disappear with this turn of technology, I'm not unsympathetic at all, I'm desperately trying to figure out what I'm going to do when my job goes poof. I just think it's funny we're on a website complaining about a website. |
Bshea
Member
Username: Bshea
Post Number: 77
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 8:19 pm: | |
HuffPo is one of the most popular sites on the Internet. It's an apples-to-wombats comparison to a town like A2 or even Detroit. Is every town going to have a HuffPo outlet?
I doubt even HuffPo could have pulled off months of investigation and legal bills on something like the KK saga. The revenue streams just aren't there.
I have no issue with media moving online. I would no doubt my pub may be down the road. And I don't know the answer of how to successfully migrate the print revenue online. But it must be figured out.
Blaming corporate greed is a nice distraction from the problem, but gets us no closer to the answer - how to effectively raise enough revenue to sustain a newsgathering operation locally.
We need professional newsgatherers, not bloggers in the traditional sense. |
Det_ard
Member
Username: Det_ard
Post Number: 57
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 9:48 pm: | |
quote:I have no issue with media moving online. I would no doubt my pub may be down the road. And I don't know the answer of how to successfully migrate the print revenue online. But it must be figured out.
Blaming corporate greed is a nice distraction from the problem, but gets us no closer to the answer - how to effectively raise enough revenue to sustain a news gathering operation locally. You have to make people pay for it. Advertising alone won't do it. You need both subscriber revenue and advertising revenue.
Do people value original news reporting? Do they value it enough to pay for it? Even if it's online and not on paper? If the answer to that question is "Yes", you have the basis for a profitable and sustainable news organization. If "No", some serious introspection is needed.
It's hard to know the answer to that right now because almost everyone save the WSJ gives their news away for free online. What if the only way to get in-depth local news was to pay for it? How many would pay? Enough to make a business out of it? I don't know the answer, but as long as almost all news outlets provide their work for free we'll see a continued death spiral.
It obviously costs money to operate a newspaper, yet between the decline of the paid subscriber base and the death of paid classifieds most people probably contribute $0 to the bottom line.
Out of curiosity, how many here buy/subscribe to a daily paper?
I get two, the News (for another week) and the WSJ, but I'm probably not in the majority on this. How do papers survive when fewer and fewer people are willing to pay for their product? |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1281
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 9:56 pm: | |
What's the point of decrying the end of paid-for journalism done by people making a living wage if you bail on subscribing? |
Det_ard
Member
Username: Det_ard
Post Number: 59
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 10:09 pm: | |
They're bailing on me. I'd continue to subscribe if they continued to deliver a paper to me. Even though it gets thinner and thinner.
I very much prefer the actual paper to the online newspaper experience, but if I have to go online to get my news I'll choose the free way. I'm not in front of a computer all day, and I'm not going to lug my laptop around so I can read the paper, I'll just tuck the WSJ under may arm and go. And occasionally browse the local news on my phone.
Now, if they made access to the local news a pay service only, I might rethink my decision. The newspapers hold better cards than many people acknowledge. They're the basis for most local reporting on radio and TV. They could be like some trade journals or magazines and only allow access to their content if you pay. But they don't (yet?) so they get their news product cherry picked by people and mass media channels for free. I think that's an error, but it's their right to give their product away for free. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1282
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 10:34 pm: | |
Cutting back to four home delivery days is the only way they can avoid cutting the product more, and cutting newsroom staff. So your answer is to bail, and make the finances even more precarious?
I agree, it should be a pay model online. But I wouldn't punish the whole shebang and help ensure that it goes away just because the bosses haven't realized yet they can't give it away for free.
If those of us who value news gathering don't pay for it, it's gone. All you'll have left is opinionating on the HuffPost. |
Det_ard
Member
Username: Det_ard
Post Number: 60
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 11:02 pm: | |
I half agree with you. Without lots of people valuing and paying real money for what the newspapers do, they're gone. That would be very bad. But that might be what it would take for people to be willing to pay for news. If freep.com adn detnews.com go dark for a while you'll see some changed attitudes toward paying for local news.
I could lend them my moral and financial support and continue my subscription but I won't. They won't sink or swim based on a few do-gooders who pay way more than what they value the product at just to try to keep the sinking ship afloat. I'd rather see them face the real market forces and do whatever they can to create a viable news company. I'm not into propping up flawed business models.
Why not give me a little credit for my patronage thus far. I'll bet few on this forum have spent a penny on their local paper over the last few years. Most people under 35 just go online adn never read a "paper".
Hell, there's plenty of days that my paper gets recycled unread because a quick read of each section's headlines shows that I heard it all already on the radio. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 11:09 pm: | |
I give lots of credit to you and others who subscribe. I subscribe to several papers knowing full well I won't read every page of every paper. That's OK, I get what I need out of each, and along with thousands of others, I'm paying for journalists to be able to do this for me.
I just think it's too bad, knowing what you know, that you'd bail now, when it's most crucial. |
Det_ard
Member
Username: Det_ard
Post Number: 61
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 11:31 pm: | |
What I know is that unless the papers figure out a way to extract $50 - $150 per year from people who are used to getting all their news for free then the news business isn't a business anymore. It's just a very costly hobby for the shareholders.
You can't build or sustain a business based on emotional appeals to "save" them. "Buy American" doesn't work for the Big 3 in place of top-quality products, "Support your local market" didn't work for Zaccarros in place of good management and reasonable pricing. The newspapers have to figure out how to manage the change they're going through. I don't envy their task, it's not obvious what will actually work. At the end of the day however there will be some level of demand for local news and some type of business model will emerge to fill that demand. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1284
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 11:41 pm: | |
Forget emotional appeals, I use my money to support local journalism, plain and simple. Saying you don't agree with its business model is putting up a smokescreen. They have a product I want, I pay for it. |
Dustin89
Member
Username: Dustin89
Post Number: 263
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 11:45 pm: | |
Bshea's comment ("Why should people major in journalism in college if all they can expect is volunteer positions at some blog? Or min wage?") makes a good point, and hits home for this college student and freelance journalist. |
Det_ard
Member
Username: Det_ard
Post Number: 62
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 11:49 pm: | |
OK, it works for you. I still want the paper on my porch. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1285
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 12:05 am: | |
I want it on my porch too, so it's on my porch now four days a week. That's better than none. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1286
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 12:07 am: | |
Dustin,
I agree with Bill Shea on all counts... |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 501
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 12:26 am: | |
"You can't build or sustain a business based on emotional appeals to "save" them. "Buy American" doesn't work for the Big 3 in place of top-quality products, "Support your local market" didn't work for Zaccarros in place of good management and reasonable pricing. The newspapers have to figure out how to manage the change they're going through. I don't envy their task, it's not obvious what will actually work. At the end of the day however there will be some level of demand for local news and some type of business model will emerge to fill that demand."
Exactly. I do think that the Freep and the News never really recovered fully after the mid-1990s strike. Until then, my entire extended family were daily subscribers, and I read both papers just about every single day of my young life. In fact, everyone I grew up with had access to the News and Freep -- so much so that in Detroit Public Schools, perhaps about half my teachers could do article assignments. "Find an article about ___ and bring it in tomorrow." Of course you could... just about any functional adult subscribed to the paper, or knew someone who did.
Once the strike happened, every single adult member of my family cancelled their subscription. After the strike was over, sometime when I was in college, I think a few of us went back to Sunday only after that. My mom still takes the Sunday paper.
I've never been a consistent newspaper subscriber as an adult, and I think most of us under 35 are not... even those of us who read. The crazy thing is that I'm a magazine reader! I love mags and have a half dozen subscriptions at any given time. I just prefer in-depth reporting, longer articles, and even the physical aspects of a magazine.
One DUMB thing that the Ann Arbor News did for at least the 4 years I've lived up here: provided a weekly free HOME DELIVERED "Food, Folks & Fun" mini-edition for every A2 household. I think for the first three months, my reaction was, "Wow, Tree Town is so prosperous until they can afford to give every resident a free weekly paper!", but then I realized it was an insanely incredible waste of print. They either go straight to the recycle bin or become literal fishwrap in my neighborhood... those who read the paper, subscribe to it, and for those who don't, even a free paper will go unread.
We have a monthly newsmagazine up here that I find much more useful, the Ann Arbor Observer. Being a Detroit native, I found this place weird as anything at first (still kinda do!), but the Observer is excellent. There's lengthy, quality articles about A2 people and places, both contemporary and historical. You get the crime stats for the past month, and a comparison to one year before. You get all the newly opened businesses (plus blurbs), all the businesses that are closing (plus blurbs) AND a cool feature that surveys the businesses that opened 1 year before, 5 years before, and 10 years before... along with their survival rate. (BTW I really wish that the Metro Times, who has excellent journalists on staff, could expand their front matter into more of an Observer-like format.) |
Reddog289
Member
Username: Reddog289
Post Number: 1005
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 2:41 am: | |
During the strike my Dad would send me out to A2 to get the AnnArbor News then bitch about the Sports section. |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1321
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 8:53 am: | |
I wonder what paper is next on the chopping block. How long will it be before the Oakland Press/Macomb Daily cut back, their owner is already in bankruptcy. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 9:52 am: | |
English--
The Detroit papers did a good job of scaring good pro-labor folks like you off during the strike.
They didn't do such a good job telling you that both papers are still unionized, and that you're supporting union workers by buying them.
Unlike the Oakland Press, which successfully broke its unions. |
Rooms222
Member
Username: Rooms222
Post Number: 202
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 10:37 am: | |
>>>>One DUMB thing that the Ann Arbor News did for at least the 4 years I've lived up here: provided a weekly free HOME DELIVERED "Food, Folks & Fun" mini-edition for every A2 household. incredible waste of print.
This is the wave of the (immediate) future, until ad circulars are distributed in a better way. This is the value of the home delivered paper....It is really an ad circular delivery system. That is why the News/Freep are delivering on the three days they have ad circulars for home subscribers. The News/Freep also deliver to nonsubscribers the Meijer/Rite Aid/Pep Boys ads on the weekend......I have noticed the Observer/Eccentric chain has ramped up the circulars and delivered select editions for free as well.......I think I saw that they are still going to deliver ad circulars twice a week in A2.... |
Bshea
Member
Username: Bshea
Post Number: 78
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 11:07 am: | |
I've spoken to reporters at the Flint Journal, the A2 News' sister paper, and they're taking 40-50% pay cuts while be ordered to work longer hours. |
Det_ard
Member
Username: Det_ard
Post Number: 64
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 11:14 am: | |
Ouch.
That takes them from what to what? I wouldn't think they'd be very highly paid to begin with. Still, in this economy it may beat being unemployed. |
Oldredfordette
Member
Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 5997
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 6:54 pm: | |
Yeah, you can write during the day and wait tables at night. That will improve the business model. |
Bshea
Member
Username: Bshea
Post Number: 79
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 7:43 pm: | |
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/s hea
Details on the salary cuts and comments from Steve Newhouse on the Booth newspapers situation. |
Oldredfordette
Member
Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 5998
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 7:50 pm: | |
"Out of 345 employees in Bay City, Flint and Saginaw, about 145 had pay reduced from 0 percent to 25 percent, about 100 were reduced from 25 percent to 30 percent, about 75 were reduced 30 percent to 40 percent, and 25 were reduced 50 percent."
Jesus.
Do you think the Booth heads will get Gannett-style bonuses for slashing workers pay?
http://gannettblog.blogspot.co m/2009/03/two-08-bonus-cuts-du bow-vs-this-co.html |
Detroitej72
Member
Username: Detroitej72
Post Number: 1370
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 7:58 pm: | |
Unfortunately, the strike in the 90's at the Freep and News helped kill readership of both papers, and they haven't recovered. This is were, I think, the unions shot themselves in the foot.
That action caused an already waning readership to finally give up.
The current generation has never grown up reading and relying on papers for their news, unlike dinasaurs like me.
Myself, I always bought both Free Press and News for their local, in-depth coverage in news and sports. Today, they are a shadow of their former glory, but I still read them faithfully. |
Evelyn
Member
Username: Evelyn
Post Number: 337
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 9:32 pm: | |
Across the state, the Grand Rapids Press is cutting wages but not home delivery...
http://www.mlive.com/business/ west-michigan/index.ssf/2009/0 3/grand_rapids_press_cuts_pay_ an.html
Not sure how I feel about this one. Glad another paper isn't closing, but I'm also glad I don't work there! The GR Press uses MLive.com for its web content as well. |
El_gato
Member
Username: El_gato
Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 2:51 am: | |
Wow. This is sad news. My father was a printer for the Ann Arbor News for years. I have a small commemorative brass key chain w/picture stamped "New Building.....Ann Arbor Daily News 1936" that was his. Years later, I had a rural route w/the paper. Sad this is happening everywhere. I too, like a 'hard copy' of the paper vs. only online. |
Zug
Member
Username: Zug
Post Number: 158
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 1:35 pm: | |
Sorry if others have made similar points elsewhere, but I absolutely hate how we are losing more & more perspectives on events. For example, it sometimes feel like every single news source uses the same exact Associated Press or Reuters article (and their neutral or in some cases pseudo-neutral writing styles) for any significant news story. I even see Associated Press descriptions of local sporting events. Granted, there are still plenty of beat writers that contribute weekly columns or opinion pieces...but I hate how it seems like the trend is towards a single reporter writing the definitive account of any event. It saves money, but it seems journalistically irresponsible to rely so heavily & trust what others are saying word for word. I don't know, I'm rambling a bit...it's just frustrating.
Also, more on the topic of the thread...maybe I'm just old fashioned, but what's wrong with making hard copies of things nowadays? Movies, music, books, newspapers, video games...these industries more & more seem to think people dont want something to hold in their hands. Don't get me wrong...I like music & movie downloads & reading websites, but sometimes I need to give my eyes a break from the computer & my ass a break from the chair. And it feels different to me to hold a brand new bluray in my hand & reading the case than looking at the properties of a downloaded movie. Also, haven't people heard of hackers, natural disasters, unforseen power outages, etc. that would ruin the distribution of news or completely ruin your entire collection of music/movies/video games/books? Remember the Northeast power outage a few years back? It was nice to be able to buy a newspaper the next day & read all the articles when I had no power. I guess I would need to buy a generator to power up my computer to get news...or listen to news radio repeat the same 10 stories all day. |
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