 
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3752
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 3:57 pm: |    |
"Dnerd, you're lumping all immigrants in with one another both legal and illegal. A laughably specious position to take."
Oh, because of that report? Well, some of it deals with illegal immigration, if you read it to the end.
But there are studies that deal exclusively with undocumented immigrants.
==============
Some find that immigrants pay in to systems they'll never be able to withdraw a penny from:
"There is a myth that undocumented workers don’t pay taxes and use services costing the United States billions.
A dirty little secret is that undocumented workers not only pay taxes but also contribute to Social Security – and will never collect a dime.
Since companies require a social security number in the hiring process, undocumented workers often provide fake numbers. Both the company and the workers contribute to these fake accounts, which end up in the coffers of the Social Security Administration.
Some undocumented workers pay as much as $2,000 or even more every year to Social Security and Medicare.
Since there are an estimated 7 to 8 million undocumented workers in the United States, their contributions reach about $7 billion a year. This amount is about 10% of last year’s surplus for Social Security, the difference between what the system receives in contributions and what it pays out in benefits."
IN MANY WAYS, this is a sweet deal for Americans. Think of it: These "parasites" pay into systems they cannot use. The beneficiary is you and me. So, in a sense, WE are the parasites, robbing them of their contributions to the common welfare of the country.
"Far from being a social drain, the presence of undocumented people makes a net positive contribution to the U.S. economy. According to the National Immigration Forum, undocumented immigrants pay about $7 billion annually in taxes. Some taxes paid by the undocumented, including $2.7 billion annually to Social Security, and $168 million into state unemployment benefit funds, are direct subsidies to these systems, since undocumented workers cannot, by law, collect any benefits for their contributions."
"In the state of California alone, which accounts for about 43 percent of the nation’s undocumented population, undocumented immigrants pay $732 million in state and local taxes, in addition to federal payroll and Social Security taxes. The state, in turn, according to the Urban Institute, spends $1.3 billion on education for undocumented children, and $166 million for emergency medical care for their families (the only kind of state-provided medical care for which they qualify.) It is difficult to make the case that expenditures on the education of undocumented children, or on emergency medical care for their families, is a net economic drain, given the gross under payment of benefits in many other areas."
==============
A study by the Center for American Progress points out the drawbacks of a massive deportation policy, as suggested by Doug, and even suggests a severe shock to the American economy as many of its actual laborers are removed from the labor pool.
"The costs of a massive deportation policy would not only be
substantial, but in many ways, financially reckless. Implementing such a policy would
seriously jeopardize our commitment to secure the homeland and pay for our commitments overseas, as well as threaten other vital national priorities.
Moreover, our estimates do not include the potential costs associated with the
negative shock to our economy of losing 6.3 million workers over the relatively short
timeframe of five years. A recent study concluded that immigration is an essential
element of our nation’s economic growth and that immigrants provide a net fiscal benefit
to the country. With a population of nearly 22 million foreign-born workers, deporting the undocumented would amount to removing approximately one-third of a vital pillar of our nation’s economy."
==============
And, hell, even the Council on Foreign Relations sees benefits of illegal immigration.
"... there is little evidence that legal immigration is economically preferable to illegal immigration. In fact, illegal immigration responds to market forces in ways that legal immigration does not. Illegal migrants tend to arrive in larger numbers when the U.S. economy is booming (relative to Mexico and the Central
American countries that are the source of most illegal immigration to the United States)
and move to regions where job growth is strong. Legal immigration, in contrast, is subject to arbitrary selection criteria and bureaucratic delays, which tend to disassociate legal inflows from U.S. labor-market conditions."
"Over the last half-century, there appears to be little or no response of legal immigration to the U.S. unemployment rate."
"Two-thirds of legal permanent immigrants are admitted on the basis of having relatives in
the United States. Only by chance will the skills of these individuals match those most in
demand by U.S. industries. While the majority of temporary legal immigrants come to the
country at the invitation of a U.S. employer, the process of obtaining a visa is often
arduous and slow. Once here, temporary legal workers cannot easily move between jobs,
limiting their benefit to the U.S. economy."
==============
I do hope this goes some way to addressing Gnome's complaint about the Catholic Church's study. And Doug's complaint that we're flooded with illegal immigrants just as we're all going into the cheese line. It's pretty clear that undocumented workers come here when they have a chance to actually work.
Doug, I do not support starving children out of the goodness of my heart or for any "warm, fuzzy feelings." I know that life in a country where children starve and people die because they cannot get medical care will become increasingly debased and brutal. I want to help the old and the infirm now, while I can, because I know I'll be old and infirm someday myself. See how that goes? And denying anybody access to health care, to education, to nourishing food, to a modicum of security in old age, isn't good for the nation. Who wants to live in a country where people are sick, hungry, stupid and insecure? I know I don't want to.
And so, there's this thing called taxation, whereby my money can be used to run a properly functioning society. Only thing is, it's being ripped off to pay for white, Christian, upper class bankers. I hear nary a peep out of you about that, even though the direct cost to you and all our children and their grandchildren.
As far as I can see, you sound like a xenophobe, talk like a xenophobe, argue like a xenophobe, so, um, I guess I'll just take your denial that you're a xenophobe for what it's worth.
Anyway, there's some evidence in this post. Check it out. You honestly can't expect to just keep repeating "illegals ARE a drain on our society" expecting that I'll just give up and believe your tautology.
What does my job have to do with this discussion, Doug. Don't feel you can handle the debate on the issues? Want to fire some ad hominem attacks across the bow? I don't think so, chump.  |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1743
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 4:08 pm: | |
Ever notice how Americans are never at fault for losing their jobs. It is always it has been sent overseas or some illegal is willing to work for less money or some other excuse as too why they are entitled to a lifestyle they are not willing to allow others the chance at having. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3753
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 4:17 pm: | |
_sj_: Interesting point. I believe the psychological theory of "projection," where you blame another person for the crimes you have committed against him, does seem to play out in social prejudices.
African-Americans were enslaved for hundreds of years, forced to work against their will. Then, lots of white people said they were "lazy."
Mexicans had half of their country stolen from them in wars and gunpoint treaties. Then lots of white people said they were "thieves."
No matter how much stupidity and blindness I see, nothing seems as dim as the "popular widsom" in America. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3538
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 4:20 pm: | |
Ever notice how some foreigners are always trying to blame us for how they live? Their excuse is they live poorly because we won't allow them entry. We Americans work more hours per year than any other people on the planet. FACT. If they are so concerned about bettering themselves why not start enterprises in their own country? Like people did and do here. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 936
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 4:21 pm: | |
I'm perfectly willing to "allow others the chance" to share my lifestyle, sj..and there is a legal means for those who wish to come to this country and do so.
On the other hand, I am not particularly thrilled when someone chooses by illegal means to simply grab that life.
Nerd, I have no wish to use your career choice to form an ad-hom attack against you. I'm just curious what it is that you do for a living, since you obviously do not feel YOUR livelihood is threatened by the infusion of cheap labor.
By the way, fending off a non-existant ad-hom while calling someone "chump" is pretty fucking hysterical.
Good one.
You mentioned spurious social security numbers given to employers..what you failed to mention is that the vast majority of illegals are not ON the payroll. Is the phrase "under the table" not in your lexicon? |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5453
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 4:27 pm: | |
"spurious social security numbers given to employers"
Having worked as a payroll processor I can tell you that the Social Security Administration picks up on invalid numbers, even when just due to a typo. |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 1078
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 4:36 pm: | |
One of the reasons that illegals are taking jobs that "no Americans want" is because too many Americans have been trained to believe that if they don't take care of themselves, the government will take care of them. Mexicans are brought up knowing that they have to provide for themselves. Why would they come to America if they had a "great" welfare system in Mexico? |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1744
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 4:51 pm: | |
quote: We Americans work more hours per year than any other people on the planet. FACT.
And yet every year we are working more hours and getting less done, which is also a FACT.
quote:I'm perfectly willing to "allow others the chance" to share my lifestyle, sj..and there is a legal means for those who wish to come to this country and do so.
Here in lies the problem. There is a legal means that is shut off to many and that is a problem. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3754
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 4:53 pm: | |
"Nerd, I have no wish to use your career choice to form an ad-hom attack against you. I'm just curious what it is that you do for a living, since you obviously do not feel YOUR livelihood is threatened by the infusion of cheap labor."
I never said my livelihoods isn't threatened by cheap labor. Cheap labor in this country is going to have an effect on how we live and how much we get paid. The thing is, the whole nativist, chest-beating, ship-em-home thing actually is part of the problem when it comes to that. If we're going to "crack down" on undocumented immigrants, how are they supposed to join our unions, to fight for higher wages and better working conditions? I see two classes of working people being pitted against each other, which won't lead to a solution.
"By the way, fending off a non-existant ad-hom while calling someone "chump" is pretty fucking hysterical. Good one."
Thanks. You'll notice I attached a smiley to it to note the joke. (Sense of humor required.)
"You mentioned spurious social security numbers given to employers..what you failed to mention is that the vast majority of illegals are not ON the payroll. Is the phrase 'under the table' not in your lexicon?"
That's funny. You had better call the New York Times and tell them that their reporting is faulty.
Whether it's through contractors, intermediaries, labor agencies or other means, employers are required by law to withhold SS taxes. And so they do it. Do you think cash-strapped governments are going to refuse to accept it?
But there are so many taxes on us that we all must pay. Sales taxes. Cigarette taxes. Taxes on intoxicating beverages. Taxes that nobody can avoid.
Besides, do the research, and you'll find that undocumented immigrants do pay taxes. Somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of undocumented immigrants pay state and federal taxes, in addition to putting billions of dollars into social security.
Undocumented immigrants also pay taxes property taxes -— right to the government if they own property, and through their landlord if they rent.
Again, we arrive back at the beginning. You, producing no facts, simply stating how you think things really are, over and over and over again. Why don't you stop fuming about this issue and instead try to learn something? |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5454
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 4:55 pm: | |
No, it's not a problem. Every developed country has immigration standards. There's no reason why US borders and US markets should be expected to be the most open in the world.
(Message edited by lilpup on March 27, 2009) |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5455
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 5:00 pm: | |
"how are they supposed to join our unions, to fight for higher wages and better working conditions?"
They don't join unions. As a matter of fact when a major electrical hardware manufacturer down south was using undocumented workers it was the union employees in the same company who reported them to authorities and got the place raided. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3755
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 5:11 pm: | |
"They don't join unions. As a matter of fact when a major electrical hardware manufacturer down south was using undocumented workers it was the union employees in the same company who reported them to authorities and got the place raided."
That's what I'm talking about. It's a win-win situation for management. If undocumented workers have no rights, they can't organize. If they're rebuffed by labor unions, so much the better. Lower wages for everybody but management!
Before the Big Three were organized, the companies used to bring in African-American workers from the South. Some workers, white to the man, said the workers were coming here and "taking our jobs." The UAW cannily chose to organize ALL the workers, winning contracts at GM, Chrysler and Ford by 1941. But they could only do it by getting past those racial prejudices. So there's a parallel there. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5456
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 5:24 pm: | |
The companies brought in ALL kinds of workers from ALL over, not just blacks from the South. The companies also brought that labor in during boom times when labor was short, not as a means of undercutting the existing labor force.
Recognition of the UAW certainly didn't stop any migration to Detroit from other parts of the country. The UAW only serves to protect member labor from management. Bottom feeding scab labor still exists. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3756
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 5:34 pm: | |
Yes, they brought in all kinds of workers from all over at times. But I'm talking about the run-up to organizing the Big Three, which occurred not during boom times but during the Great Depression.
Among the worst was Ford Motor Company, which brought in large numbers of African-American from the South as "strikebreakers" in the 1930s, for the express purpose of dealing a blow to labor solidarity.
Check out "Black Detroit and the Rise of the UAW"
by August Meier & Elliott Rudwick. It's a great overview of how race solidarity helped organize the Big Three and what happened after that bright moment. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5457
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 5:52 pm: | |
Blacks worked at Ford long before the UAW was recognized and blacks were in the UAW when your "strikebreakers" were brought in. The "strikebreakers" brought in were SCABS. Their color is irrelevant. |
Stnfrnt
Member
Username: Stnfrnt
Post Number: 586
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 6:21 pm: | |
This Viet Nam veteran did NOT put his life on the line just to see the "Great American Dream" simply handed to anyone who manages to enter this country illegally and find a welfare office. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 937
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 8:57 pm: | |
Ah well..point was moot for me. Nerd, you will be pleased to learn that I ended up having to work tonight, failed to make it to the meeting to protest.
The downside of being self-employed is that my boss is a real prick..
|
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1925
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 4:28 am: | |
quote:This Viet Nam veteran did NOT put his life on the line just to see the "Great American Dream" simply handed to anyone who manages to enter this country illegally and find a welfare office.
When did you see this happen? This sounds like a real problem.
quote:you will be pleased to learn that I ended up having to work tonight
Uh-huh. Sure. Like you ever had any intention whatsoever to do anything. You were never going anywhere to anything because just like sstashmoo, you never will do anything about your perceived problem. Except bitch about it. No ideas for realistic solutions, no physical movement on your part, no action, just bitching.
quote:How about 3.9 billion a year in education costs?
Or 1.5 billion yearly spent on imprisoning alien criminals?
You're lying. I'm not sure whether you dug this one out of one of your email forwards or where you got these numbers, but they are flat out wrong. Sounds like a concoction from the anti-immigrant foundation FAIR or Captain Xenophobe Frosty Woodbridge. Taking anything they say as truth would be like taking information on the holocaust from the nazis.
Let me know where you got these numbers and we'll try to cross reference them to the real numbers from trustworthy sources like major news outlets, unbiased studies and the US census.
Hey sstashmoo, just for you...
Annual work hours (source: OECD (2004), OECD in Figures, OECD, Paris.
Looks like even the Mexicans are working harder than you. You should log off the computer and get to work lest you want the foreigners putting your work ethic to shame. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 938
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 6:07 am: | |
Hey Bob? Regarding my own personal history of "doing" rather than posturing behind a keyboard, suffice it to say that you don't know me very well.
As for the facts you dispute? Google is easy to find..do so and type "cost of illegal immigration" into the search bar, read articles on both sides of the story rather than just the one that makes your dick hard. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2552
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 6:23 am: | |
lol, you go Doug. Yeah, you're such a layabout... what a silly thing to say. |
Detroitfats
Member
Username: Detroitfats
Post Number: 76
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 9:57 am: | |
I have strong feelings on this topic, but I cannot call myself an expert, by any means. I can report what I have seen with my own eyes.
I first started going to SW Detroit in 1980, mostly for late night dinners. I now work, eat or shop in this area almost every day. The revitalization of SW Detroit in the intervening years is nothing short of amazing, especially when you consider what has happened to other parts of our city during the same time period. I'm pretty certain there is no part of Detroit with more legal and illegal immigrants than the SW area. If this is the only area (at least, that I know of) that has improved dramatically, and it has the most immigrants, then how in the world can I be against these people, and want them sent home? |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1745
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 6:52 pm: | |
quote:The UAW cannily chose to organize ALL the workers
Not at the same time and not as equal partners. It was Ruether who changed all that. Prior to that Whites believed the more skilled and talented black co-workers didn't deserve the same as them. Often leaving blacks in jobs they were over-qualified for and the most dangerous. But then again it was always someone who was taking "their" jobs. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1926
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 7:52 pm: | |
quote:As for the facts you dispute? Google is easy to find
So you think you can just toss out numbers and we'll accept them? If we question them, it is our responsibility to verify them? Yep, you're just like sstashmoo. You throw out shit that has absolutely no basis in fact and think we won't catch it. I've said it before, but apparently you xenophobes just don't get it or refuse to accept it...The burden of proof lies on the person making the statement, not those who question it.
I have read articles and I trust the information from unbiased sources. I have done more research than you have. I don't absorb any information from sources with an agenda like FAIR. Apparently you do, but your numbers are still wrong. You said it, now prove it with a legitimate source or I'll just assume that you're a liar.
I also live every day in the middle of the immigration issue. Ironically, I've found that the people that are most vocal against these issues (like yourself), generally have no contact with immigrants whatsoever. They also bitch about illegal immigrants and threaten to do things like hold a protest (sound familiar?), but almost never actually do anything. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3540
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 7:55 pm: | |
Quote: "just like sstashmoo, you never will do anything about your perceived problem. Except bitch about it. No ideas for realistic solutions,"
Another fabrication from you, I don't bitch about it.
Your logic is so skewed it is off the charts laughable. Let me get this straight, People with total disregard of our laws trespass in to our country and it's our responsibility to come up with a "realistic solution"? We have a realistic solution, it's called immigration law.
It's against the law and there is nothing you can do about it. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1927
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 8:08 pm: | |
They're here and there's nothing you can do about it. And they're probably flipping you off on the way to cashing all of their welfare checks, after which they will spend your money frivolously. Suck it.
I see you didn't feel like commenting on yet another one of your "FACTS" debunked. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3541
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 8:53 pm: | |
Quote: "They're here and there's nothing you can do about it."
Quite frankly I don't care what they do about it. Anyone with a half of a brain can see it coming. Look at the amount of chatter there is at the Federal level nowadays regarding "illegals". Ten years ago, it was hardly mentioned. It's an issue that is moving closer to the forefront everyday and the outcome is inevitable. They are going to tighten down considerably. What that means I have no idea. Given the USA's record on handling things, probably won't be good.
What was that again? "Suck it"? Are you sure you're old enough to be on the computer? |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 939
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 9:42 pm: | |
Cheddar, I told you to go Google it yourself because I hve ZERO interest in wasting any more of my time on you. Apparently, you are set in your beliefs and have no interest in changing them..and you're a rude little fucker to boot. Good luck with that.
I do have one final question for you before I depart this thread:
What do you think a "fair" immigration policy would be?
Open door to anyone who can manage to get here? |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 1089
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 11:25 pm: | |
|
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 541
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 11:35 pm: | |
Retriot is part of the reason we NEED more immigrants.
We definitely need to diversify the gene pool here north of the Rio Grande.
Oh, and there's no official language in the U.S., so if you don't like to hear other languages, then que te jordan. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1929
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 11:57 pm: | |
Doug, you have "ZERO", interest in wasting your time on me except to hear my whole immigration reform plan? Sounds pretty contradictory, but I've come to expect that from your side.
I'll tell you what...you tell me where you got your numbers from and I'll outline what I feel is a fair compromise to the situation.
I'm set in my beliefs because I've based them on hundreds of hours of research from non-partisian sources, first hand knowledge of the immigration system today, and years of real experience directly relating to immigration. What are you basing your beliefs on?
Sstashmoo still turns a blind eye to evidence that contradicts him.
Retroit, do you have a problem with people speaking a language that is different than you? Are you resentful that sometimes you have to actually hit an additional number on your phone (probably to get to another person that doesn't speak your language)? Or did you think that it's cute or funny? |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3542
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 1:07 am: | |
Quote: "I'm set in my beliefs because I've based them on hundreds of hours of research from non-partisian sources, first hand knowledge of the immigration system today, and years of real experience directly relating to immigration."
And you're wrong, plain and simple. Your belief is based on fundamentally flawed logic. It's against the law and no amount of your experience and research is going to change that. As I said, it's against the law and you can do nothing about it.
You're like the kid that brings the puppy home after his parents said "no". They said no.
P.S. You found some five year old chart that contradicts something I read somewhere else? Big deal. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 940
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 10:01 am: | |
Bob, if you read the thread instead of merely cutting & pasting other folk's findings, you'd already know what forms my opinions on this subject.
Why would I waste my time explaining what's already been said, simply because you lack the ability to scroll upwards?
Again, what do you deem a "fair" immigration policy? The fact that you think "amnesty" for those who are already here sounds good indicates a leaning towards a de-facto "open door" policy. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1931
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 3:18 pm: | |
Why are you avoiding the question of where your numbers came from? |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1932
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 3:20 pm: | |
Also, you use the word amnesty in quotation marks as if I said it. I have not. |
Urbanfisherman
Member
Username: Urbanfisherman
Post Number: 138
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 6:16 pm: | |
I think a funny t-shirt for certain people on this board would read: "I'm a racist douchebag!" |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 945
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 11:58 am: | |
I think a funnier one would point out the fact that any time a white person points out a criminal act by a non-white he'll be called a racist by certain people on this board.
You'll note that not once was race brought up by anyone opposed to illegal immigration, Mr. Fisherman..I frankly don't give a shit what color the law-breaker's skin is. I don't approve of illegals of the caucasion persuasion either.. |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 980
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 12:21 pm: | |
New York Times, April 5, 2005
"Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.
Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez -- who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana -- contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.
Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.
He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year." |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3552
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 12:35 pm: | |
Extremely weak argument. How much revenue are they depriving from US workers in the form of payroll income? Probably close to a trillion under and over the table. How much cost are they throwing on the states feeding these out of work US citizens? That 7 billion, which is probably bullshit anyways, isn't a drop compared. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3758
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 12:56 pm: | |
Hard news from some on this board, and lots of guesses from the others. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1936
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 2:19 pm: | |
You'll have to excuse sstashmoo, detroitnerd. He often mistakes his opinion for fact. See chart of labor hours above. We're only using facts and real information. He tends to ignore these things if they contradict his opinion. He response was,
quote:P.S. You found some five year old chart that contradicts something I read somewhere else? Big deal.
Which equals:
"Yeah, big deal that you have hard evidence from a legitimate study. I think I read something somewhere that was different. I'm not even going to attempt to provide evidence that I'm right, my opinion alone should be enough".
quote:Probably close to a trillion under and over the table
Bullshit. I say it's 0. As long as we're pulling number out of our asses, I say 10 million undocumented workers think sstashmoo is a tool and that they help pay for the welfare benefits he receives.
Wow, things are so much easier when you make stuff up and pass it along as fact.
In regards to the t-shirt picture, I think it is pretty telling that it singles out Mexicans. Of all the countries that speak spanish, retroit only wants Mexicans to go back to Mexico. A logical conclusion would be that retroit hates Mexicans.
quote:I do have one final question for you before I depart this thread:
I thought you were "departing this thread", doug. More lies from you. They just keep piling up. Oddly, in the two times that you posted here after threatening to leave the thread, you didn't address where you came up with your numbers. If you made them up, just say so and we'll leave it at that. If you made a mistake or pulled them from some biased group, fess up and we'll forget about it. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3554
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 2:35 pm: | |
Fact 1: Illegals unlawfully fill job positions that should be filled by US citizens.
Fact 2: Unemployed US citizens are a financial burden on the states and Federal government.
Fact 3: Illegal aliens taking jobs they are not legally entitled to, deprive US citizens of income opportunities.
Three undeniable facts that you will have to accept whether it fits your research and experience or not. I'm right, you're wrong...A-gain. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1749
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 2:42 pm: | |
quote:I think it is pretty telling that it singles out Mexicans. Of all the countries that speak spanish, retroit only wants Mexicans to go back to Mexico.
Kind of how autoworkers bitch they are being forced to work like Mexicans. The hate is always there, the group just changes. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1937
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 2:44 pm: | |
I never said any of those things weren't true. I'm not sure how I can be wrong on something I never said, but whatever. You've never let the facts get in the way of a good story before, I don't expect you to start now. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1938
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 2:47 pm: | |
SJ, they never even consider that what they're saying is thinly-veiled racisism, do they? They act shocked when you point it out. |
Firstandten
Member
Username: Firstandten
Post Number: 820
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 2:47 pm: | |
We don't have an illegal alien problem as Thom Hartmann likes to say we have an illegal employer problem.
Start enforcing heavy fines and jail times on these employers hiring these illegal aliens and watch the problem go away.
Instead of trying to build fences and doing other crazy stuff trying to keep folks from coming over here crack on the business owners doing this stuff , but I know its always easlier to blame the mexicans and latinos coming over here trying to better themselves
(Message edited by firstandten on March 30, 2009) |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3555
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 3:06 pm: | |
"racisism"
Can you define that? |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 542
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 3:10 pm: | |
Fact 1: Illegals unlawfully fill job positions that should be filled by US citizens.
FALSE. Undocumented workers fill jobs that U.S. citizens can't or won't take. You disagree?
I'm a former investor in a restaurant. I'm still sorta involved in the operation. Find me an American citizen willing to work HARD 60- hour weeks at a kitchen job, and I have a job for you. Show up ON TIME and DON'T COMPLAIN.
Fact is, very few Americans apply. Those that have been hired are horrible, and were soon let go.
Fact 2: Unemployed US citizens are a financial burden on the states and Federal government.
TRUE. Thanks for supporting the immigrants. Immigrants have MUCH higher workforce participation whether documented or undocumented.
Fact 3: Illegal aliens taking jobs they are not legally entitled to, deprive US citizens of income opportunities.
FALSE. If they are illegal, their job doesn't officially exist. They are in fact making US citizens very wealthy. Whether this is good policy or not is another question. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3556
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 3:36 pm: | |
Quote: "Undocumented workers fill jobs that U.S. citizens can't or won't take."
Can't? What sort of job would that be? Won't? Nonsense, someone will fill those positions, hide and watch.
Quote: "Find me an American citizen willing to work HARD 60- hour weeks at a kitchen job, and I have a job for you. Show up ON TIME and DON'T COMPLAIN."
There are lots of US citizens that would take those jobs if they pay enough. Your argument really is: "I can hire illegals for less money" In other words, take advantage of them.
Quote: "If they are illegal, their job doesn't officially exist."
How do you figure? |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1942
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 9:37 pm: | |
How do you figure, "Probably close to a trillion under and over the table."? |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 946
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 10:13 pm: | |
"FALSE. Undocumented workers fill jobs that U.S. citizens can't or won't take. You disagree?"
Funny, not only do I disagree, but it's already been presented by several (including myself) who've posted that they personally know of folks who've lost work because they were priced out of their job by cheap labor. The construction contracter who's NOT hiring crews of illegals is a rare bird in this country, even here in Michigan..go down south and talk to someone in the construction biz, get back to me.
It's funny..on the one hand, you guys cry that these poor souls are being taken for a ride and jobbed out of a fair wage & benefits due to their "illegal" status..and then two seconds later you claim that no American would want the jobs they do.
So lets say you get your "amnesty" wish and alakazam! All the illegals are now citizens..what happens? Do they continue to work their jobs for below-standard wages, or do the bosses suddenly pony up the additional cash & bennies needed to make the jobs palatable?
It's a lose-lose situation..either these folks remain an underclass getting underpaid in order to sustain the "job no American will do" myth, or they get equality and all of a sudden the jobs become desirable, even to us spoiled Americans.
Your logic is circular and only perpetuates the cycle of illegal immigration.
I agree that the businesses doing the hiring are the ones who need to be slapped down..but the illegal aliens are not exactly unwilling victims..they are accomplices at best.
Both problems need to be addressed, but not with an amnesty program which is simply more of the same ol' same ol'. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1943
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 10:20 pm: | |
You sure are doing a shitty job of departing this thread. |
New threads cannot be started on this page. The threads above are previous posts made to this thread.