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Archive through February 15, 2009Glowblue30 02-15-09  11:39 pm
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 7851
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh darn, what have you missed?
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Oladub
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Username: Oladub

Post Number: 1275
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 4:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Vetalalumni, re post 1330: I was referring to the phrase, "to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men" which is general to governments anywhere at anytime. It is not specific to the Constitution which hadn't been written yet. I wasn't making either judgement on peoples' choices or trying to evaluate the almost infinite combination of factors influencing personal situations. I agree that " Freedom to choose other preferred roads is not always available, apparent or practical." It worked out that way for me too.

re post 1346: Yes,'equality' is the correct word rather than 'inequality. However, I meant both 'radical' and to suggest base, selfish motives as some efforts have gone awry and have therefore created misery instead of any promised happiness.

About fifteen or twenty years ago, I remember hearing that in Sweden, garbage men made more money than school teachers. The reason was that teachers had more status. To compensate for the inequality in status, garbage men were paid more. It seems like a reasonable attempt to have an equatable society without the drawbacks of the unsuccessful Bolshevik effort mentioned above.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 3049
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 7:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Work added value is the spark of life when added to raw materials in a manufacturing environ. With the "owner" and the "raw materials" and a "designer" and "capital" to back the process - you still have only the dead components that are not trade worthy. Add labor to the process, and then the raw inanimate components become a "product". Now it is alive with labor added value, and can be put to market.

Labor is the spark of life that animates the components and adds trade value. It is the origination of value through labor that gives currency true value to begin with. Dont need no gold or silver - who can eat that ?

This means the "capital" that backs the manufacturing is chicken after egg, as it requires the use of currency which is imbued with value via labor.

Cant have capital without labor - because labor originates value, thereby instilling value to currency. Currency empowers the capital to fund a manufacturing environ.

Its all chickens and eggs.

And it always starts with labor.

It is through labor that you can gather raw material, that you can render a design, that you have a business to own, that you have capital to invest.

Labor is Sine qua non to the process.


VIVA LABOR
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 3050
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Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 7:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Text description
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Vetalalumni
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Username: Vetalalumni

Post Number: 1359
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting words and picture Mauser765.

Brings to mind the process of childbirth.
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Oladub
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Username: Oladub

Post Number: 1277
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mauser, I tried addressing value in post 1192 near the top of this thread. There are many things that affect value including labor. Marx's emphasis on labor was a bit narrow.

Silver and gold do have industrial applications but for this discussions they are simply a medium of exchange that make it difficult for governments to steal value, often the fruits of labor, from its citizens. If the value of currency simply reflected labor, then Chinese people would be richer than us. Maybe in the long run, that will be the case as we continue to transfer our currency to China.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 19269
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where did you find that Marxist comic Mauser?
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Oladub
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Username: Oladub

Post Number: 1280
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bats, Little Ayn will shrug when she gets tired of supporting her ridiculous burden.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 19294
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, March 09, 2009 - 1:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That isn't Ayn, it is a proletariat girl with her factory in the background and what is supposed to be a capitalist sitting on top. It is pure Communist propaganda. I am just curious where it came from.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 7854
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 09, 2009 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Calling Homeland Security?
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 19317
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, March 09, 2009 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Huh? Who is it you think is calling homeland security?
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 8651
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"proletariat girl with her factory in the background and what is supposed to be a capitalist sitting on top. It is pure Communist propaganda"

back in the pre-union days of child labor, it was a very truthful image. of course today they would be little micronesian or asian girls
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Oladub
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Username: Oladub

Post Number: 1291
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"of course today they would be little micronesian or asian girls"

Partly because President Clinton got us into NAFTA? I still favor my reference to little Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged. If she shrugged, down would come the corporatist made fat with things like NAFTA.
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 8653
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Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

um, NAFTA has nothing to do with Micronesia or asia, neither of which, last I checked, were in North America.
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Oladub
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Username: Oladub

Post Number: 1292
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Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rb, Good point. The little girl would have to be Mexican were it just NAFTA but Clinton also got us into the World Trade Organization. I'm glad none of our jobs have wandered off to Mexico under NAFTA though.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1721
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 5:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

currency which is imbued with value via labor.



Yes and No. Currency is imbued by Trust. Trust can be built with Economic Might and/or military might. Our currency being backed by Gold at one time also allowed that trust to influence the value of said currency and help keep it inflated.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 19339
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is why the fed is a bad idea, the value of currency is illusory without a reference (like gold).
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4531
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 12:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course, gold only has value because we all agree that is has value.
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Vetalalumni
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Username: Vetalalumni

Post Number: 1383
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oladub, you could have easily called into question my assertion in post # 1330 (March 02, 2009). Here it is -
quote:

At that time, this definition of the pursuit of happiness applied to full 100% American citizens as the founders so defined them. And we know who that unjustly excluded. A conceptually flawed aspect of a great tenet.



Anything?
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Oladub
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Username: Oladub

Post Number: 1293
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 1:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Vetalalumni, No, I couldn't at the time. I was in Florida hovering about an assisted living unit working on income taxes and mis-sorted files on the Second. I did see a beach out of the 737's window though. I also had an interesting conversation about red and blue Matrix pills with a homeland security agent who spread my suitcase contents into four trays. Predictably, he had the red and blue pills mixed up.

I did try to respond in my March 8 post #1275. I thought that you might have been referring to the Constitution whereas I had been referring to the Declaration of Independence. The preamble of the Declaration is idealistic and universal, whereas, the Constitution is more pragmatic about protecting individuals from government. If you were referring to shortcomings of the Constitution, the amendment process has allowed changes forbidding slavery and expanding suffrage on one hand while creating income taxes and making booze illegal on the other.
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Vetalalumni
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Username: Vetalalumni

Post Number: 1387
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Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 2:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After seeing the beach and Pacific Ocean daily for years, it becomes less remarkable. Regarding blue or red pills, why should one be compelled to choose? Right? And the homeland security agent's confusion was mildly humorous correct?

Yes, the American Constitution was that to which I referred. Realized later that you were referring to the D of I. Just checking you :-).
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 8659
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 8:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ola, under reagan, our corporations were paid by the federal government to move operations from the US to polynesia, micronesia, the philippines, etc. Most notoriously, our army "assisted" the marcos government in the creation of a "free trade zone" by literally picking up an entire fishing village (while the men were conveniently at sea) and relocating it far inland. when the men came back, the were told that they were now farmers. of course, the area the village was moved had little useful farmland, so mattel and other companies that moved there went up and grabbed the 10-12 year old daughters of these people to work in their factories. they were "boarded" in squalid conditions. as they got older, they were often forced to become concubines to the factory bosses.
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Oladub
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Username: Oladub

Post Number: 1294
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rb, I voted for Carter because I mistook Reagan's senility for craziness. The question now is 'Where is Obama on NAFTA, the WTO, and similar internationalist, corporatist collusion?' I would be interested in knowing, for instance, what guarantees Hillary had to make to protect future Chinese investments in our bond market or what Obama restrictions will be put on US corporations exploiting cheap Asian labor.

Vetalalumni, Yes there was a note of humor involved. The HS guy even offered to help me repack my suitcase. My pant hanger, ensconced in rolled pants and folded shirts was one of the things he went for. I had to bite my tongue in our friendly red pill/blue pill discussion to avoid linking voting for certain mainstream candidates with eating blue pills.
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Vetalalumni
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Username: Vetalalumni

Post Number: 1388
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oladub post # 1195 stated
quote:

In the early days of the Bolshevik Revolution, Party leaders realized that just levelling wealth did not totally address social inequalities. For awhile, young ladies were required to provide their bodies to guys who hadn't been getting any. This caused too many young ladies to go insane so the policy was abandoned. It was, however, an example of a government realizing that inequality will not be achieved simply by levelling financial assets.



My post # 1346 responded
quote:

... since the context is that of human beings (the raping of young ladies), the conclusion is flawed.


Why flawed? To be clear, because "young ladies" are people, and not financial assets (history withstanding) for reallocation. And the example given amounts to rape, not a simple reallocation of "financial" assets. Remember the old adage, use things (money, cars etc...), not people.

Later, at the end of post # 1275, Oladub made a more appropriate, though still questionable, "reallocation of financial assets" argument by referring to the leveling of Garbage Workers's pay.

quote:

About fifteen or twenty years ago, I remember hearing that in Sweden, garbage men made more money than school teachers. The reason was that teachers had more status. To compensate for the inequality in status, garbage men were paid more. It seems like a reasonable attempt to have an equatable society without the drawbacks of the unsuccessful Bolshevik effort mentioned above.



Next, is a gentle inference that contemporary Republicans are a moral set who are simply conscientiously worried about being too overbearing in their rightness. This is a very big leap.

And then there is the not-so-gentle inference that Democrats are mere selfish power grabbers hoarding and seeking unfair entitlements.

quote:

That is a radical concept that would never pass today's Congress. Republicans might be too worried about morals and Democrats would be disenfranchised as the self definers and providers of happiness.



You have a smooth and kind tone in most of what you write. Often wise and thoughtful. This invites thoughtfulness in return. I suspect you will appreciate my responses in this post.

Oh, and regarding the red/blue pill,

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
The Matrix.
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 8663
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ola, I do think we agree on the corporatist abominations
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Vetalalumni
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Username: Vetalalumni

Post Number: 1389
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Rb, Good point. The little girl would have to be Mexican were it just NAFTA but Clinton also got us into the World Trade Organization. I'm glad none of our jobs have wandered off to Mexico under NAFTA though.



Pivot.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 19354
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fearing equitable free trade is insecurity.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4551
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 1:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Fearing equitable free trade is insecurity.



Please tell us more about the "equitable free trade" we have with Southeast Asia!
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 19398
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 11:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I did not say that we have it. And I mean to say that we should endeavour to achieve it and refuse to compromise until it is attained.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 7880
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Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spoken like a true Communist.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 19407
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

??Communists are in favor of free markets?
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 7887
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Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe not, but they love Absolutes, and excuses.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 19433
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ahem, care to retract your post 7880 then Jams?

Absolutes? I suppose false absolutes. Need a modern example? Look no further than comrade Obama.
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 8691
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Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sorry, bats, your absolutism ranks right up there in irrationality with the likes of the Stalinists, it just goes the other direction. it ranks up there with ANY fundamentalist belief system you care to name, and it is phrases like "we should endeavour to achieve it and refuse to compromise until it is attained" sound like they are ripped right out of Joseph Goebbels' notebook, or at the very least, Mussolini's. that is the kind of statement that led to witch hunts, gulags and concentration camps.
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Gibran
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Username: Gibran

Post Number: 4604
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Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well tell the free market concepts again to all those fans of matlof...
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 8693
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Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

there is nothing wrong with the free market that a bit of regulation can't fix. markets are not rational actors, and neither are investors. the "invisible hand" is the god of market fundies everywhere, and it is every bit as irrational as any other deity
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Flanders_field
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Username: Flanders_field

Post Number: 1810
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

??Communists are in favor of free markets?



Perhaps they are a bit tilted in favor of the "export" rather than the import half of free markets, especially when "import" involves finished products, instead of raw materials, US jobs, and energy sources.

But they certainly have made that claim, and of course, just like your idols, that being the conservative corporate capitalists, who do business with them globally, their interpretation of what defines the words "communism" "free" and "market", is just a matter of applying the proper positive public spin to them, when it comes to business opportunities, rather than fretting about how their governments rule the populace.

http://www.uschinabiz.com/
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 7898
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Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You caught the gist of my statement perfectly, Rb.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 19469
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Strong principles used by bad people do not impugn the principles Rb. Once again you resort to the Hitler comparison.

He was a vegetarian...does that mean that all vegetarians are like Hitler? You get the point, I am sure.

Regulation to assure just trade between consenting parties involved in commerce...no more than that.
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 8700
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Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 9:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THe principles you espouse are, themselves, intrinsically corrupt
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Vetalalumni
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Username: Vetalalumni

Post Number: 1428
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 12:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

... the "invisible hand" is the god of market fundies everywhere, ...


Well stated!
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 19798
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Again Rb?? No arguments in support of your assertions?
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 8789
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

gee, it took you 14 days to respond to that and that is all you can come up with?

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