 
Kathinozarks
Member
Username: Kathinozarks
Post Number: 1884
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 4:36 pm: |    |
I have to say it: Amen Cc. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19154
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 4:37 pm: | |
See? Rational thought works. |
20043_stotter
Member
Username: 20043_stotter
Post Number: 816
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 5:10 pm: | |
So, it works for you every 2 times per 1000 posts. Bravo for you. |
Locke09
Member
Username: Locke09
Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 5:22 pm: | |
I think some are born that way and some choose. Like Gannon, I've noticed the difference between gay men and lesbians. There are several of each that I have known all their lives.
I have looked at boys as young as 3 and felt they were predisposed to become gay. They did. But these were all boys who had flamboyant, artistic and dramatic personalities. Others have said they felt like they were gay from a young age, but no one else could tell.
But every single one of the females, and I know several, have admitted that they once loved men or were attracted to men and chose to become gay after suffering abuse, either as an adolescent or as an adult. Some even cite witnessing the abuse of mothers or older sisters as a reason for their decision. Every one of them also has had children with men (except one and her girlfriend is pregnant now - the natural way).
There could be lesbians who feel they were born that way. I just don't know any, and it does seem peculiar.
Wouldn't someone like Lindsay Lohan seem to fall into the "Choice" category? |
Lodgedodger
Member
Username: Lodgedodger
Post Number: 1591
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 5:26 pm: | |
IMHO--born. I've always been attracted to men. You cannot force attraction. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 9523
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 5:27 pm: | |
Seeing as we all start out as female, there may be some logic to that. |
Locke09
Member
Username: Locke09
Post Number: 32
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 5:55 pm: | |
Lodgedodger, just a question:
Do you think attraction can be "imprinted" or influenced? Say, in the early years of life. |
Classicyesfan
Member
Username: Classicyesfan
Post Number: 592
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:04 pm: | |
Let's have a remembrance here for CraigD. I know he irritated many of us, but he could be so unintentially amusing.
He used to say he was "Proud to be Straight". He said that just like gays choose to be gay, he chose to be straight. I don't think he understood the full implications of his being able to choose to be straight. I bet his wife knows them all too well though.
(Message edited by classicyesfan on March 03, 2009) |
Lodgedodger
Member
Username: Lodgedodger
Post Number: 1594
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:31 pm: | |
Not sure, Locke. I'm sure taste can be influenced if we're talking about, say, a piece of furniture. But attraction, you really can't explain it. I was very young when I first saw Elvis on television--there was no imprinting or influence involved--to this little kid, he was handsome!
I admit, my tastes have changed quite a bit, but attraction is attraction. It comes from deep within. |
Lodgedodger
Member
Username: Lodgedodger
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:36 pm: | |
>>I've know brothas' and sistas' that have dated white women and white Men etc, who put their relationship with their family at risk just to be involved with them. Why would someone choose a situation like that?__maybe they just like the drama (humans like drama) or some folk are not content to take the path of least resistance, but to say that someone wouldn't choose to be gay simply because the decision would be hard on them, ain't cutting it for me.<<
Again, attraction. You can't choose to whom you'll be attracted.
Preference is hard-wired. |
Pam
Member
Username: Pam
Post Number: 5081
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:39 pm: | |
quote:I don't think he understood the full implications of his being able to choose to be straight. I bet his wife knows them all too well though
He was divorced. |
Lodgedodger
Member
Username: Lodgedodger
Post Number: 1596
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:41 pm: | |
Locke, it just occurred to me you think I'm male. I'm a woman who is married to a man. ;-)
But you can always count on me for an opinion--sometimes more than one. |
Saintme
Member
Username: Saintme
Post Number: 336
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:51 pm: | |
"Being gay doesn't mean you know either. I don't think anybody really knows."
Let me put it this way. As a gay man, I am telling you that I do not choose to be attracted to other men. After a few years of Christian counseling (which I initiated) and dating women in my teens in an effort to "straighten" out, I at age 25 have yet to have experienced any form of physical sexual attraction to a female. So take that for what it's worth. I thought for years I could change, it didn't work, so I'll keep on hearting men the way God must have intended me to. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 9525
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 6:59 pm: | |
Saintme, understood. But just because you can't change something doesn't tell us whether it is nature vs. nurture. Both are equally powerful. I do believe it is nature, but I don't think anybody knows for sure.. As far as God intending you to be the way you are, of that I have no doubt.  |
Saintme
Member
Username: Saintme
Post Number: 337
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 7:10 pm: | |
By saying I can't change it I'm just reiterating that I'm not choosing it, it just is. That's all I mean. |
Ravine
Member
Username: Ravine
Post Number: 3106
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 7:25 pm: | |
As to the base question, I say Born That Way. (But, I figure that most heterosexuals would say that.)
I would add that I believe societal/environmental factors play some role in the formation of specific preferences. Just as a f'rinstance, my mother was about 5'00", with big brown eyes, and built on a very petite scale, figure-wise. While I don't have any Oedipal thing going on, I cannot help but notice that the women to whom I'm attracted are almost always teeny lil' ones with big brown eyes. |
Detroitej72
Member
Username: Detroitej72
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 7:42 pm: | |
Both born and choice.
I think most are born, by the grace of God, as gay.
However, as in the case of celebs like Lindsey Lohan and others, I think there is a case of shock value or just having fame and wealth makes them board. Therefore, I believe not all celebs who claim to be gay are born that way. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 9527
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 8:02 pm: | |
^ Mick Jagger perhaps another such example. |
Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole
Post Number: 5991
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 8:11 pm: | |
Oh, I think some of the female entertainers who like to shock by kissing each other and holding hands are doing it solely for publicity i.e. Madonna and Brittney Spears, Lindsey Lohan, Christina Aguillera and others. I agree, there will always be those that take up the lifestyle to be cool and shocking.
quote:Seeing as we all start out as female, there may be some logic to that.
JL, that could account for the fact that more women than men claim to be bi. Or it could be that it's just easier for women to deal with. |
Jonesy
Member
Username: Jonesy
Post Number: 557
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 8:37 pm: | |
It's hard for me to believe that anyone would choose to belong to the most reviled group of people on the planet. Therefore, I conclude they are either born or conditioned that way. |
Det_ard
Member
Username: Det_ard
Post Number: 46
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 9:17 pm: | |
quote:t's hard for me to believe that anyone would choose to belong to the most reviled group of people on the planet. Therefore, I conclude they are either born or conditioned that way. I thought I chose to be a conservative, but perhaps I was born this way. I did go through a period of experimentation during and after college where I considered myself a liberal for a number of years but I know at my core I am a conservative and I now live my life that way.
Whether I was born this way, or conditioned to be this way I do not know. I just know it feels right for me, despite belonging to the most reviled group of people on the planet (I voted for Bush. Twice.) I am as God made me. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 19173
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 12:18 am: | |
Reverse the premise for a moment. Now, does it matter? |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2447
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 6:22 am: | |
It matters because if one is born that way or as God made me, then it follows that there is a genetic origin.
A gay gene is a big deal. If there is such a gene it therefore means that some people might be carriers of the gene or they might be gay and not know it. If you are in fact genetically gay, you were that way from birth, meaning your parents were either gay and passed the gene on or were carriers of the gene.
So is it possible to be genetically gay and not know it? Is there some unseen hand that maintains a level of gayness in a society? Should gaydom spread beyond a certain level, the society itself collapses because two partners of the same sex can't have children without external help.
If there is a gay gene does that explain the host of external affectations that have come to symbolize gayness like, flamboyance? Or since there are deeply closeted folks are they fighting their gay gene structure by acting straight?
I checked craigslist to look at the same-sex classified adds; "straight acting" was widely heralded as a trait describing themselves. Right up with height, weight, eye-color and girth.
Does that mean that the gay folks that act straight are indeed acting? That their genetic gayness is constantly pushing the flambouyance button but socital imprinting restrains many from expressing it?
Like many folks I'm out and proud with my straightness, I don't mind that people know, and I'm not ashamed for bring straight; likewise, I do think that someone who knew they were gay, but repressed their natural being, would be a very tortured soul. In suppressing their basic humanity such people would be very disagreeable and would love to bait people into arguments.
That's why I think it matters. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 9528
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 8:44 am: | |
quote:Does that mean that the gay folks that act straight are indeed acting? That their genetic gayness is constantly pushing the flambouyance button but socital imprinting restrains many from expressing it?
Would a gay person be "flamboyant" if they grew up in the country with no TV and few neighbors? If that sort of behavior was not available to observe? Or could the flamboyance simply be people identifying with a group? IE in high school, kids often were in groups they identified with. They would act and dress similar as a way of belonging, such as the punk rockers or the metal heads. (I was guilty of that – trying to be "different" by dressing just like all the other punk rockers! Oh the irony...but I digress.)
My best friend is gay, I can tell you he is not suppressing any flamboyance, he just doesn't act that way, and finds people that do annoying, but is understanding of where they are coming from. He did not have it as difficult as many, especially older generations. His family and friends were perfectly accepting. Others who were not so lucky may need more coping mechanisms. Acting the way it is perceived that gay people are "supposed" to act may be one of those mechanisms, whether conscious or not. |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 8612
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 9:32 am: | |
very good points, jl. I have friends who are gay, but certainly not flamboyant, and I have some who are flamboyant.
personally, I like women, but there are women who are so flamboyantly "girly" that it turns me off |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2449
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 10:21 am: | |
Jl, agreed, I don't have any answers, just questions. Sure would hope that more folks like Saintme would chime in and help the rest of us become more understanding and accepting of others. |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 8617
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 10:30 am: | |
"It's hard for me to believe that anyone would choose to belong to the most reviled group of people on the planet."
i didn't think this thread was about atheists |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 9530
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 10:35 am: | |
quote:"It's hard for me to believe that anyone would choose to belong to the most reviled group of people on the planet."
i didn't think this thread was about atheists
Or the Yankees. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5371
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 11:05 am: | |
Studies have provided evidence that indicate orientation is not a choice. The choice is how or whether or not one acts on their sexual urges (gay OR straight).
Incidence studies have shown a tendency for male homosexuality to be passed through the maternal line. Another study showed self-identification as lesbian positively corresponded to results of a certain ear-click hearing test. |
6nois
Member
Username: 6nois
Post Number: 811
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 11:36 am: | |
As a gay man, I think it is something ingrained in ones gentics. I certainly did not choose, and as much as I tried to have relationships and sex with women I was always disinterested and detached.
As far as flamboyance, that is more a matter of personality. I grew up in a small town had no idea what gay was until I was like 14, and never met or was subjected to flamboyance, but I have always been more feminie even as a small child. Its just part of my peronality, like being happy, or having a short temper. Its not exclusive to being gay. "Straight-acting" is such a load, I will no date anyone who says that. It is the idea that a gay man can be gay love other men, but should fall into some sort of greater idea of what a "man". Just be yourself is all I have to say. I am who I am you be too. |