Detroitman
Member Username: Detroitman
Post Number: 855 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 216.78.37.32
| Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:21 am: | |
Dequindre Cut: The Missing Link By: Walter Wasacz http://www.modeldmedia.com/fea tures/dequindre.aspx |
Machoken Member Username: Machoken
Post Number: 998 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.62.2.248
| Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 7:14 am: | |
If we can't have mass transit, at least we can have a non-motorized people mover.
quote:“Another company owns the stretch of track between Hamtramck and the Dequindre Cut,” he says. “It is part of the regional vision to create links (farther north) … but there is currently no connection between the projects in the first phase.”
It would be awesome to be able to bike all the way fom Hamtramck or even the forsaken suburbs north of 8 mile all the way down to the riverfront. (Message edited by machoken on November 22, 2005) |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1311 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.245
| Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 9:18 am: | |
I just walked the cut in September and I don’t think I consider myself the bravest urban explorer. Hell I don’t even consider myself an urban explorer. |
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player
Post Number: 179 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 207.148.213.218
| Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:43 pm: | |
"It would be awesome to be able to bike all the way fom Hamtramck or even the forsaken suburbs north of 8 mile all the way down to the riverfront." You can do that now on these things called sidewalks and streets. |
Machoken Member Username: Machoken
Post Number: 1006 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 65.86.12.2
| Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:04 pm: | |
Gee, thanks bud. It was 5:14 am when I posted that... I meant that it would be nice to be able to bike all the way down to the riverfront in green space, not needing to dodge traffic, potholes, prostitues, dead (C)krak heads, gang baggers and street taggers. |
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 362 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.26.136
| Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 5:22 pm: | |
Detroit Connecting RR uses the track from the cut to Milwaukee Jct. Canadian National uses it north of there. There would have to be fencing installed if a bike trail were to be put in. CN isn't known for being enthusiastic about these kinds of projects. |
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu
Post Number: 172 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 141.218.35.102
| Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:08 pm: | |
Detroit Connecting still switches a few industries south of Milwaukee Jct during the week, and as far as i know that segment of line will remain intact. North of Milwaukee, it is the CN Holly subdivision, a mainline which connects Detroit with their Toronto-Port Huron-Battle Creek-Chicago mainline at durand. The Detroit Connecting, (DCON) is owned by the Adrian and Blissfield RR. |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 1343 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.212.210.246
| Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 7:34 pm: | |
A below street trail is great in an ideal city. Detroit is not there yet. The area will be a target for young thugs to rob or rape bikers and walkers. No security camera is going to prevent potential crimes, only identify some of the perps after the fact. The best use of for the Dequindre Cut is for light rail. Any other use is problematic. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 1598 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.221
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 12:17 am: | |
I agree Royce, all it will take is one incident! Also people feel safer in plain sight of others. How many people like walking/riding down deserted alleys? |
Sticks Member Username: Sticks
Post Number: 70 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 69.136.142.60
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 1:04 am: | |
The best use of for the Dequindre Cut is for light rail. Any other use is problematic. FTA: Some of the details of phase one of the project include: • The path will stretch one mile in length, running north and south along half of the former rail corridor. The paved path will be 20 feet wide and will include separate lanes for bicycle and foot traffic. • The other half will be left in natural grasses and reserved for potential future rail transit. The possibility still exists, Sutherland says, that in the future a light rail line could be developed in the cut. Right, because Detroit is *this-close* to getting light rail. Would it be better for the CoD to let the DC stay as it is (bridges in neglect, rusted and bent rails laying around, a camp at the Gratiot bridge for maybe at most ten homeless folk, and a great place to create and photograph graffiti) for the next 20 years and let it deteriorate even more until someone can use it for the sole purpose of light rail, OR to spend money and create something now that people can point to when they say that "Detroit is alive again" and still leave the possibility of mass transit in the Cut? I just walked the cut in September and I don’t think I consider myself the bravest urban explorer. Hell I don’t even consider myself an urban explorer. I guess it's not really too dangerous. I mean, yeah there's bums and a chance of seeing some ghetto dogs but that's what makes it fun right? And if you're scared, don't bring anything valuable, bring a weapon (stick, maglight, mace), roll deep and you'll be fine. |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 1345 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.212.210.246
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 5:33 am: | |
Exactly, Gistok. Sticks, I was not advocating light rail for the Dequindre Cut. I only mentioned it because the current idea of turning it into a bike and walking trail is a bad idea. If you were to do anything with it at all, then the most logical thing would be to bring back the commuter trains or a light rail system. |
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000
Post Number: 57 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.14.26.135
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 1:39 pm: | |
If you don't like the Dequindre Cut trail, don't use it. The project is the result of public and private groups contributing millions of dollars. They wouldn't do this unless they knew the project would be a success. It's common for naysayers to warn about trails becoming havens for crime, but fortunately that never holds true. In fact a nationwide survey of trails show that these are some of the safest places to be. Also, the Paint Creek Trail in Rochester has already had "its one incident" but it has not affected that trail's popularity at all. |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 1349 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 70.227.217.248
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 3:20 pm: | |
Fishtoes, are these other trails below ground? And no I will not be using the Dequindre Cut. I'll take my chances walking or running on Belle Isle where there are plenty of people to act as witnesses or heroes if someone wants to attack me. BTW, Fishtoes, how long have you lived in Detroit? |
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000
Post Number: 58 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.14.26.135
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 4:30 pm: | |
As I recall the safety survey did not ask respondents whether their trails were below grade. However, below grade rail-trails are common in urban and suburban settings since these were former rail lines. Portions of the Paint Creek and Clinton River trails are below grade. I have never lived in Detroit, though I ride over a thousand miles a year on Detroit streets. I also have over a dozen years of experience in trail development including the Rouge Park trail in Detroit. |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 1350 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 70.227.217.248
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 5:09 pm: | |
Fishtoes, is the Rouge Park trail below ground? My point is that a below ground trail is a different animal from one that is at ground level and can be viewed by passers-by. The Dequindre Cut is too isolated for my comfort. |
Mbr Member Username: Mbr
Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 69.246.43.231
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 5:55 pm: | |
Royce, I don't understand why you don't think anyone will be using it. People will use it for the same reasons they run on belle isle, there are a lot of people around. I think there will be "plenty of people" because of the increasing residential density of the area, compared to belle isle which is difficult to get to without a car. The stakeholders in this project realize its importance and will not neglect the security aspect of it. |
Eric Member Username: Eric
Post Number: 242 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.8.141.113
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 6:03 pm: | |
Thankfully, people with a lot more vision than you think Detroit is ready for something like this |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 1351 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 64.148.226.49
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 7:23 pm: | |
Eric, see I have a problem with young idealists like yourself who have not lived in the city long, if at all, praising every proposal in Detroit as being the greatest thing since slice bread. How many discussions have there been on this forum about poor planning in Southeast Michigan: no mass transit, sprawl, focus on one-industry, the building of the RenCen fortress, and many more? Obvious I have some basis to support my argument. All the plans that have failed in Detroit were carried out by people that supposedly had "more vision" then the rest of us. Yet look at how many of these plans have left Detroit worse off than better off. I too have a vision for the Dequindre Cut(DC), but it's not as a below-street-level bike and walk path. Use it for what it was originally used for; a rail line. Except this time use it for commuters as opposed to carrying freight. Who are you to say, Eric, that my "vision" is the "wrong" one and the vision planned is the "right" one? To make the Dequindre Cut work as a bike and walk path for me there needs to be security officers present within yelling distance. If not, forget about it. Also, will the Riverfront Conservancy be paying for these security officers because the Detroit police will not be patrolling this area? Also, has anyone ever seen the graffiti artists do their stuff along the DC? If they can get away with their crimes, who's to say the robbers and the rapists won't be able to get away with theirs. I think the Riverfront Conservancy is making a big mistake with its decision to create this bike and walk path along the DC. Only time will tell if I'm right or not. I'm just not going to risk being a victim and statistic there. I'd rather take my chances in more visible areas. Mbr, when I have driven along St. Aubin, usually in the afternoon/evening, I have never seen a person jogging or riding a bike, despite the fact that there are a number of residences along ST. Aubin and the fact that the Lafayette Towers are near by. Maybe these folks will use the Dequindre Cut once it's open, instead of where they currently go. However, remember, Mbr, that the thugs will use it too once they find out how easy the pickin's are. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 1600 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.210
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 8:06 pm: | |
Royce, remember the red Tinker Toys on Washington Blvd. People "with more vision than you or I" created that for the public good..... I am not against this, and I don't think Royce is either (although I cannot speak for him)... but there are a few obstacles that need to be addressed, and safety is at the top of the list. As we learned the "build it and they will come" mentality has bitten Detroit in the butt many times in the past, and at great expense. Just how are folks supposed to access the Dequindre Cut? Only from the north and south end? Or are they going to have entrance and exit "ramps" like they do with freeways. I don't see stairs as an alternative, at least now with folks biking and the rules for handicap accessibility. Maybe a callbox or something like a "fire alarm" every 500 feet wouldn't be too bad either. But that assumes that if you are in trouble, a policeman/security person is going to come to your rescue in "quick time". With extra entrances and exits the DC will also make it easier for homeless folks to get to for residing under the bridges. And it will make it easier for stray dogs, raccoons and other critters to get down there. And speaking of other critters, how about prostitutes? If the sidewalls of the DC are pretty smooth, that may help safety wise. But if there are a lot of nooks, crannies and blind spots, then that too will work against safety. |
Skulker Member Username: Skulker
Post Number: 3269 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.42.176.88
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 8:22 pm: | |
Jeeeeezuzz fricking christ people! The DC already has critteres and homeless people living in it and with no lighting and plenty of places for peole to hide, there has not been an incident with the fairly large number of people who traverse the DC regularly, myself included. Been living less than 200 yard from it for more than 10 years, have yet to hear of a single incident there. I think this is a great idea. The project is fairly comprehensive and will feature lighting, access points at the north and south ends with some access at midpoints. Royce, aren't you also the person who said Campus Martius was a really bad idea? That the best use for the Hudsons block was a regional jail? |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 1353 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 64.148.226.49
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 8:45 pm: | |
Yeah, Skulker, I complained about Campus Martius Park and one of my biggest complaints was dealing with all of the traffic lights. Well, guess what, someone must have heard my complaints because the traffic light from Michigan Ave. constantly flashes and the traffic light coming from Cadillac Square has disappeared, and the light on Monroe constantly flashes. I guess the traffic engineers realized all of the traffic lights slowed down traffic like I said it would. So what happened, Skulker? What was the reason for the changes? Now, you may live by the Dequindre Cut but you and the bums use it secretly. As soon as criminals realize that joggers, bikers, and walkers will be using this area they will coming too. Nothing has happened now probably because bums have very little to steal and the thugs have no reason to come to this area, yet. I sincerely hope the DC will be safe for those using it, but I will be leery of any pathway that is below ground where there are few pedestrians and motorists to act as witnesses and deterents to crime. Sorry I don't share an idealistic view of the DC. I have lived in Detroit too long to take certain risks. Using the DC would be too risky for me. But hey, Skulker, knock yourself out. Hopefully, no one else will. BTW, Skulker, I said the Hudson's site might be a good spot for the new police headquarters, since they haven't found a downtown location. You came up with the regional jail idea. At any rate, I'm pretty sure they'll eventually build the new headquarters on the site Greektown was going to put their permanent casino. Oh, you didn't like that site either, did you? Oh, well, that's life. (Message edited by royce on December 11, 2005) |
Eric Member Username: Eric
Post Number: 243 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.8.141.113
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 8:55 pm: | |
Would the DC make good transit corridor? Yeah, but since it's not the only option for trasit and since it'll be many years before we have it,why not do something useful with it? I think this is far less idealistic than waiting for the day transit comes As for saftey issues you're them blowing so of proportion I don't even nowhere to begin. Seriously, I'd expect something that from an uptight paranoid suburbanite not from someone who lives in the city |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 1354 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 64.148.226.49
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 9:10 pm: | |
Eric, I didn't make it to 42 years old taking unecessary risks. Naive young folks like yourself, with no experience dealing with crime, just optimistically believe crime won't come their way. I hope it doesn't for your sake. I think I have lived this long in Detroit because I have reduced my risks as much as possible. Some luck is involved but much of it has to do with me being careful. I simply won't take the risk running or biking in the DC. Good luck to you and all of you optimists. |
Michigansheik Member Username: Michigansheik
Post Number: 40 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.40.107.39
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 10:26 pm: | |
I live by the DC as well and am in favor of this use, even if the light rail option isn't a go now at least its part of the plan now. In terms of safety this will be as safe as the river walk which so far has been pretty good. And the fact that this will be there will get people in the area to use it on their way to eastern market or rivertown. Remember in a little over a year we'll have the residents of rivertown roaming around too. Jogger's make bad mugging targets because they usually have no wallet or purse with them and most thugs know that. |
Eric Member Username: Eric
Post Number: 244 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.8.141.113
| Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 11:45 pm: | |
No naiveity just logic. You say that constructing the DC will bring new users which attract more criminals. Last time I checked robbers and rapist don't like robbbing and raping with with people around. It seems to me that additional people usung the DC would act as an deterrent making any safety issues a wash |
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000
Post Number: 59 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.14.26.135
| Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 10:50 am: | |
quote:Fishtoes, is the Rouge Park trail below ground? My point is that a below ground trail is a different animal from one that is at ground level and can be viewed by passers-by. The Dequindre Cut is too isolated for my comfort.
Yes. For the most part, the Rouge Park trail we've built is below street level and can't be seen from the road or paved path. The Rouge Trail is more isolated than the DC. |
Toolbox
Member Username: Toolbox
Post Number: 771 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 65.196.220.198
| Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 2:33 pm: | |
quote:Fishtoes2000 I have never lived in Detroit, though I ride over a thousand miles a year on Detroit streets. I also have over a dozen years of experience in trail development including the Rouge Park trail in Detroit.
Royce and Gistok Fishetoes has over a dozen years of trail development under hs belt, some of it at the national level. The groups he is involved with have projects located in areas with more crime and "bad" locations than we experience here in Detroit. People in Rochester were adamant that the Paint Creek Trail would bring in criminals just ready to invade their version of utopia. Have they ru rampant? No. |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 1604 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.120
| Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 3:03 pm: | |
Yeah those people in the 'hood in Rochester knew better than to mess with joggers or panhandle them for money.... |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 1605 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.120
| Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 3:08 pm: | |
I think that they should make the DC a year round playground. Why not dam it near Jefferson, flood it with water, and have a "riverwalk" (San Antonio) type scenario. They could have boat/gondola rides in the warm months, and (like Ottawa and Amsterdam canals) have ice skating in the cold months. |
Freakylilgnome Member Username: Freakylilgnome
Post Number: 102 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.163.40.48
| Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 10:59 pm: | |
Thanks for the post, Detroitman. We need more ways to get around other than by car. |