Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Kevorkian Near Death Previous Next
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1122
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.238.170.32
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 11:53 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Appears Mr. Kevorkian is near death due to imminent liver failure. Why doesn't he just hook himself up to one of his machines and put himself out of his "suffering"?

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20051207/NEWS06/ 512070346
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5137
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 11:57 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sure he would if he could.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2041
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.59.189
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 3:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jack Kervorkian was the wrong messenger for the right message. The right to painlessly end one's suffering when in an unrecoverable physical condition should a personal, not a state decision.

At one time his name was know by more Americans than anyone else from Michigan. Geoffrey Fieger owes his entire recognition to Jack Kervorkian.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2838
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 3:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ofcourse, Dr. Kervorkian was right. Oregon has assisted suicide in the law books and after 3 atempts to repeal the law, the voters have accepted it as a personal freedom. Right now, about 200 patients with terminal illnesses have a pill bottle on their shelves at home. When they decide to check out, they take the medicines and up rolls the hearse.

Oregon and other states also have medical marijuana laws. About 20,000 patients have a license to smoke pure dope for their ailments.
BC Bud (British Columbia) seems to be popular right now.

Both Jack Kervorkian and Geoffry Fieger were the wrong messengers. Had they been Ronald Reagan or ML King, Jr., the results may have been different.

Who in our lifetimes will ever forget the VW mini-bus, the death motels, the death machines, and the corpses dropped off in Royal Oak?

jjaba.
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 273
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.248.2.48
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 6:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"At one time his name was know by more Americans than anyone else from Michigan. Geoffrey Fieger owes his entire recognition to Jack Kervorkian."

Two wrongs don't make a right!
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2846
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 6:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba wants to ride around in the Kervorkian VW microbus in Royal Oak, Michigan. Can anybody arrange this? jjaba would bet good money that 100s of Forum members would love to do that on a flashback tour of history. Lowell, grab the wheel and take us for a spin. We'll go the gas. Stop at the motels, the city hall, the County Morgue, Fieger's office.
We'll provide a couple of clean bodybags just in case.

Is that vehicle in a museum or where?
jjaba, lol.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 7867
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.228.201.28
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 6:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The right message? Yeah, because I would rather doctors work on how to kill someone "humanely" then to try and find a cure. Great use of time and money.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5106
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.70.118.93
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 7:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am all for it.

Kudos to Oregon and the Netherlands and other places that allow humans to be masters of their own destiny.

It's ok for you to choose for a pet, but not for yourself?

Death with dignity.

That van should be at Greefiled Village.

(Message edited by aiw on December 07, 2005)
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 206.80.245.0
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 10:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree on some level--that is I think that the issue of assisted suicide is one that is worthy of more public scrutiny and private soul-searching. The truth is, it quietly goes on everywhere, everyday, with or without the blessing of the law. As for Dr. Jack, he's not worthy of inclusion in a discussion of assisted suicide, Kevorkian was/is a serial killer, and Fieger, an opportunist.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2702
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 11:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's where I take reservation with this issue...

We often make very irrational decisions within personal pain and despair. How many of you, at how many different times have wished that you would die in the face of excrutiating physical pain?

How many people with chronic (not fatal) diseases abuse the ability to take themselves out of the game? At the end of the day we must realize that we are all connected to at least one or two other person in the world.

Just something to mull. I don't think people ask themselves enough questions concerning this issue, regardless of the side that they are on.
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Ghetto_butterfly
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Username: Ghetto_butterfly

Post Number: 550
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 68.60.139.186
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 12:05 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have you ever watched a close loved one like your dad slowly wasting away in agony and pain, being reduced from a big strong man who was your protector since the beginning of your life to a mere weak shadow of himself? Believe me, if you ever did and that person would ask you for assistance to die in dignity and thus shortening his pain, knowing that nothing will change the fact he'll die anyway because the illness is fatal and there is no cure, you'd probably do it. I know I would for sure, although my dad didn't ask me when he was in that situation. Dr. Kevorkian has my greatest respect.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2705
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 1:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All good points, but it is also absolutely obligatory that we hold and honest and open debate. There is more to this issue that emotions and anecdotes, though those are also absolutely part of the discussion. That's all I'm trying to say. Ultimately, like all issues, it all boils down to whether or not the good consequences outweigh the bad.
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Dove7
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Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1776
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 1:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LMichigan,

I agree with you. I remember one of Kervorkain's patient. A white guy who was dieing and trying to express somethings on video. I felt sorry for the guy. the look in his face, eyes and voice showing death that you could feel. He was about in his 40's.

If someone is in agony/pain/death, they should have the right to choose death.
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Urban_shocker
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Username: Urban_shocker

Post Number: 222
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 71.144.82.70
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 1:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pain and suffering sucks and all, but I've never understood what's "undignified" about it. If anything I'd say it's the opposite.

No matter where you fall on the issue, I think it's clear that the "die with dignity" tagline is one of the worst examples of strategic political phraseology ever.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2706
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 1:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Urban Shocker, I hold the same view, and it all depends on your worldview and your background. I take the spiritual stance that many religions take that pain and sufferring (either temporary or seemingly permanent) are just as much a part of life as joy and happiness. The idea that we shouldn't take the good with the bad in life, or that pain and suffering are somehow not part of the natural course of things is a bit confusing to me.

With all of that said, the liberal in me won't allow me to say that we should legislate that people that don't believe the same way I do shouldn't have the right to do so themsevles. I pretty much hold the same view with abortion. Personally, I'm against it, but that doesn't mean I find it conscionable to deny some else their happiness.

What I do think we should do more of, though, is filling the void on the other end by showing people that there are other ways out of both issues, and trying to reduce the amounts of both through education. And by this I mean what I see as unnecessary abortions and death wishes. To present an alternative is not only conscionable, but obligatory.

I know I'm going to take flack, but one should not be ashamed of one's own opinion if he/she truly believes in it.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 3546
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.174.221
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 1:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dr. Death is near Death. That will be in the headlines.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2853
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 3:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Social reformers are always vilified during their lifetimes. Look at Lincoln, ML King, Malcolm X, etc.

Jack Kervorkian had some reform ideas but he wasn't some smooth political guy, and didn't convince the people of the humanity of his actions.

Mahandas Gandhi and Nelson Mandella didn't have smooth sailing either.

So Dr. Kervorkian leaves as a pauper in jail. Feiger was going to be a civil rights lawyer in some form and this was the case that made him. He's likable and gets daily face time on Natl. tv. jjaba thinks he's not destined for elective office; can't imagine him happy in Lansing behind a desk.

jjaba.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2707
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 3:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

History will take care of Jack. Maybe, those comparisons may be more appropriate in the future, maybe not. I wouldn't be so comfortable in putting his name with the greats so soon, and waxing so incredibly nostalgic, Jjaba. Unlike these other's, he has yet to inspire a very large and public movement on what you call a reform. I'm not saying that it won't happen, but even something as huge as the Terri Shaivo case didn't even inspire national legislation that has really gone anywhere. And this is not young issue, either.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 675
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.18
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 3:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

kervorkian or kerkorian???????
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2710
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 3:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't believe that Kerkorian was even mentioned here.
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Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2857
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 4:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kerkorian kills you in another way.
jjaba
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 676
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.18
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 5:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

its the large number of question marks that let you know its a joke ;) .....one that works on a variety of levels i might add :-)
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Observant2art
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Username: Observant2art

Post Number: 79
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 198.111.165.82
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 5:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

before Mr. Kevorkian started the assisted suicide mission, I heard a story about him taking blood from the deceased and giving people that were alive blood (from the deceased). One woman described that she had a weird taste in he mouth. (It was from a girl that had died in a terrible car accident because she was driving drunk) So that means that she was tasting the liquor from the deceased. I dont know if that was true but it sure is spooky! YIKES! When I was in college, I had done a powerpoint slide presentation on him describing his lifestyle. That is one weird fellow. He has done many paintings and each one of them are "eerie"!
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2712
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 5:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm...never heard that one before. I thought maybe you had blanked out for a minute with your finger on the Shift key. lol
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Observant2art
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Username: Observant2art

Post Number: 80
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 198.111.165.82
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 6:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

These are some of his weird paintings that you can also find out other information on:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/kevorkian/aboutk/art/raised.html\image_alreadyuploaded

{61359,strange}\image_alreadyuploaded

{61360,strange}\image_alreadyuploaded

{61361,strange}strange

(Message edited by observant2art on December 08, 2005)
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Observant2art
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Username: Observant2art

Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 198.111.165.82
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 6:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that was so funny I forgot to laugh! lol
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 7871
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.228.201.28
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 9:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GB. Yes I have when I was at the the tender age of 17...I would still rather a miracle (they do stil happen) then have him "put down".
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Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2054
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.59.189
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 11:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I saw a show of Dr. Jack's work in Royal Oak back when he was all the rage. From my aesthetic POV, they weren't bad. Definitely engaging, if drawing on the weird / surreal emotion, his color sense is quite good, draughtsmanship, design and composition are excellent too. The painting are midsized to large so this was not casual effort.

I wish I would have bought one.
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Observant2art
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Username: Observant2art

Post Number: 84
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 208.177.190.227
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 5:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell, Kevorkian's art work is rather spooky to me, but I think everyone has a little bit of artistic ability in them. Kevorkian just has another type of artistic ability. Which pieces of art work do you like of his?
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2876
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 10:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I liked the Rube Goldberg Machines he hooked up. Now that was a work of art that should be in the Smithsonian or the Henry Ford.

jjaba, Detroit and the Art of our Machines.
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Observant2art
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Username: Observant2art

Post Number: 94
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 208.177.190.227
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 3:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DR. KEVORKIAN'S MACHINES AND HOW THEY OPERATED!

INJECTION:

Kevorkian built a device called the "mercitron" or "suicide machine". It has three canisters or bottles mounted on a metal frame, about six inches wide by 18 inches high. Each bottle has a syringe that connects to a single IV line in the person's arm. The first bottle contains ordinary saline, or salt water. Another contains sleep-inducing barbiturates, and the third a lethal mixture of potassium chloride, which immediately stops the heart, and a muscle relaxant to prevent spasms during the dying process.

1. Kevorkian or an assistant begins the saline solution flow.

2. The person who wants to die must deliver the barbiturates by throwing a switch or pulling a string.

3. After that, either a timer or a mechanical device triggered by the person's falling arm as the drugs take effect starts the lethal drug flowing. The idea is for the deadly chemicals to enter the bloodstream only after the person is asleep. Death usually occurs within two minutes.


CARBON MONOXIDE:

1. A cylinder of the deadly gas is connected by a tube to a mask over the person's nose and mouth.

2. A valve must be released to start the gas flowing. Depending on the person's disablity, a makeshift handle may be attached to the valve to make it easier to turn. Or, with the valve in the "open" position, a clip or clothespin may be clamped on the tubing. Pulling it off allows the gas to flow.

By Kevorkian's estimates, this method may take 10 minutes or longer. Sometimes, he encourages people to take sedatives or muscle relaxants to keep them calm as they breathe deeply of the gas.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2884
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 3:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is method one the way the prisons kill people?

We guess we'll find out tonight when and if Tookie Williams goes down.

Thanks Observant for this information. As a pathologist, Dr. Kevorkian knew exactly the moment of death, infact, is fascinated by this life event.

jjaba.
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Observant2art
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Username: Observant2art

Post Number: 96
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 208.177.190.227
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 4:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am not sure how the prison systems lethal injection is. But I am assuming that Kevorkian had gotten that idea from the prison system. You can find out more of him on:

www.kevork.org



(Message edited by observant2art on December 12, 2005)
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Observant2art
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Username: Observant2art

Post Number: 98
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 208.177.190.227
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 5:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THE THANATRON

He called the machine the Thanatron - 'death machine' in Greek.
It was devised so that the patient could pull the trigger.

It started with an intravenous drip of saline solution. Then the patient would press a button starting a device which stopped the saline solution and started releasing a drug of thiopental with a 60-second timer. This would put the patient into a deep coma.

Finally, the timer's click would begin a lethal dose of potassium chloride which, in minutes, would stop the heart. The patient would die of a heart attack while asleep.

The Thanatron was made from odd bits and pieces of household tools and toy parts, magnets and electrical switches. It had an electric clock motor with pulley axle, and a chain and two coils acting as electric bar magnets.

Kevorkian showed it off, including an appearance on the "Donahue" show. He called it "dignified, humane and painless and the patient can do it in the comfort of their own home at any time they want."


Can you believe that someone wrote this?

Kevorkian Machine

Ed Edwards/Allen Myers May 1996

------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------
-1-
Tell me about your pain
Seems to me that there's no gain
How can you live this way?
I can help you end it all today.
------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------
Chorus
Slip into my machine
Slip into my machine
Slip into my machine
I can help you leave this hopeless scene
------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------
-2-
You want to go away
Got no reason to live you say
Seems to me it's true
Seems to me there's no use for you
------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------
Chorus Break
------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------
-3-
Life is just a game
When you loose, it's all pain
When life is no fun
Then it must be that life is done
------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------
Chorus
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Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2892
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 1:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well he sure as hell couldn't learn it from the Michigan Prison system. If you don't like the death penalty, you have a measure of peace in Michigan.

The details above were a bit over the top, but informative.

Did the good Doctor actually make the machine or did he have a retired union auto worker from Dodge Main help him?

jjaba assumed he worked alone, having never heard of any colleague nor partners in his business.

jjaba wonders how he filed taxes.

"Source of income?" ____________________________
"Itemized Expenses"_____________________ ________
NET income________________________ ______________

jjaba.

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