Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Return of the Rust Belt Previous Next
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Mrjoshua
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Username: Mrjoshua

Post Number: 589
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 69.209.167.42
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 11:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Return of the Rust Belt
December 12, 2005; Page A18
The Wall Street Journal, Review & Outlook

The current U.S. expansion has lifted the fortunes of nearly every state in the country, with the notable exception of Michigan, which is busy reclaiming its 1970s's title as home of the rust belt. Sad to say, politicians in both parties are only making things worse.

Amid the decline of the Big Three auto companies, Michigan ranked last in income growth last year and was the only state not hit by a hurricane to have lost jobs. United Van Lines reports that more people moved out of Michigan last year than in any year since 1982, when the state jobless rate hit 14%. Today it is 6.1%, well above the national rate of 5%.

Political disarray in Lansing has only compounded the trouble. The year started with some promise, as the Republican-controlled legislature debated broad-based tax cuts to help spur a recovery and aid such struggling manufacturers as Delphi Corp., the auto parts maker. But if you think the Republicans in Washington have bumbled things, take a look at the muddle in Michigan.

On November 30, GOP leaders sent a compromise economic development bill to Democratic Governor Jennifer Granholm. Republicans would get a few business tax cuts -- temporary and targeted -- in exchange for a $400 million corporate welfare fund that Ms. Granholm could parcel out to her political allies, right on the eve of the 2006 election. The cuts amounted to a 1/750th reduction in the tax burden.

But then Ms. Granholm outfoxed Republicans again when she discovered a loophole in the law allowing her to enact the investment fund and scrap the tax cuts. So Ms. Granholm will now be able to romance big business with taxpayer aid, while the small business and technology companies that have been keeping the state afloat have to continue to endure the state's current tax burden.

The Granholm strategy of chasing smoke stacks with a fistful of dollars isn't likely to yield much in the way of an economic rebirth in Michigan. A version of this corporate-welfare strategy was first tried by former Governor John Engler, who was otherwise a highly successful reformer and tax cutter over three terms. But after spending $3 billion over 10 years, there was "no improvement in Michigan's per capita income, jobs, or unemployment," according to a study by the Mackinac Center, the state's leading think tank.

This week Republicans are expected to pass their tax cut package once again. But Ms. Granholm, after agreeing to the tax relief in negotiations, is now threatening another veto. Her latest excuse is that the Republicans in Washington, D.C., are cutting $1 billion in federal cash that goes to Michigan's "needy farmers, families and students," and thus the state will have to make up the difference. A veto would be an act of political bad faith, but in any case these nickel-and-dime tax cuts aren't enough to help the state's economy.

How many more Michigan companies have to file for Chapter 11 or flee the state before the politicians in Lansing get serious about a growth agenda? Step one should be to speed up the elimination of the state's single business tax, which is scheduled to expire in 2009. Michigan has the fifth highest business tax burden in the country, and it is the only state to levy a tax on business production. Delaying tax cuts is like a store announcing a future sale: It provides an incentive to postpone purchases and investment. A cap on the growth of annual spending would also help constrain the political class.

For too long Michigan has let itself be hostage to the fortunes of the Big Three auto firms, which would be like Pittsburgh waiting for the steel mills to come back. The only thing less likely is that the Detroit Lions will make it to the Super Bowl sometime soon.

The state needs to make its economic policies more attractive to all business, including the growth industries of technology, financial services and communications. If that doesn't happen, says Hillsdale College economist Gary Wolfram, "expect the flow of businesses and the talent sector of the state to become a stampede Southward in the years ahead."
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Jerome81
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Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 860
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.142.86.133
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 4:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can someone remind me again why I'm considering taking an auto-related job here?

Seriously. I'm starting to think I'm stupid.
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Dnvn522
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Username: Dnvn522

Post Number: 70
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 204.24.64.25
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:09 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That article makes it sound like GM, Ford and Chrysler will not even exist in 10 years.
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Atl_runner
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Username: Atl_runner

Post Number: 1738
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.209.118.72
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is anyone so sure they will? If Chrysler can Merge with a Foreign car company, what makes anyone think that Ford and or GM are immune to doing the same thing? The big picture is looking a bit hazy.

One thing is sure. Michigan will not look the same in 10 years. It will either be an ocean of economic devestation (unlikely) or it will again be successful.. but in non auto and manufacturing areas. Michigan will not remain status quo. It can't.
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Northend
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Username: Northend

Post Number: 427
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 69.212.227.66
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GANNON???? you're the only one whose opinion I can trust :-)...
Do you see SE Michigan resurfacing in, say, 5/10/15 years and becoming the city we long to see? I still think that obviously the auto industry would be prevalent but do you see any other major industry or social movement (i.e. baby boomers, Florida being full, etc) being the driver(s) in this potential recovery
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Noggin
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Username: Noggin

Post Number: 32
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 68.40.107.240
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 12:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let me see. Non right to work state, high wages, high taxes, low technical graduate rate, even lower high school graduation rate, immovable unions. Why doesn't any company outside of Michigan want to come?

Hmm.
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Northend
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Username: Northend

Post Number: 431
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 69.212.227.66
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 1:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This probably explains why local corps are recruiting future college grads way before their graduation hopefully before an overwhelming majority of them flock out to other states. This is a viscious cycle where Michigan has a hard time retaining its youngs talents so necessary to lift itself out of the current situation.
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 905
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 3:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well what the hell would they be waiting around for? Its not like theres any jobs to wait for...

I dont see anything changing... This state is so fucking ignorant that unless the whole state dies off and gets replenished with new blood, NOTHING will change. The arrogance of those in charge coupled with their imovable ignorance is whats killing this state..

What other state in the country would allow 350+ murders a year in our own back yards and go about our daily lives like nothing happened? Anywhere else they would borderline declare martial law until the place got cleaned up... And everyone would pitch in to help. Here... fuk.. "not our problem"... and thats only to the ones that even know there is one.

I dunno... Ignorance fell Rome... Why do you think it cant fall an insignificant part of this country called michigan?...

Its not like if we got blown up today that the country couldnt recover in a year...... China would just move in and take over and life goes on...

I dont know what to do?? You cant move a mule if it doesnt want to move... and you sure as hell cant move millions of them...
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 751
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.89.12.30
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 4:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you're over-reacting Alexi

pretty indicative of the last one of two generations - "I want it and I want it NOW"

Rome wasn't built in a day AND it still exists
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2738
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 4:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exactly, Lilpup. People are more impatient and transient than ever. Michigan is for "someone else to fix up," huh?

I'll say it again, Michiganians (particularly our college students) now have a MAJOR case of "The Grass is Greener on the Other Side" Syndrome.

I am baffled by how those that can afford to move from the state do, and then completely bad mouth the remaining citizens (i.e. the ones that don't really have the means to "escape.") for not fixing up the state. What the hell do they expect to happen?
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Jfried
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Username: Jfried

Post Number: 695
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.190
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 4:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

but lmich, these kids didn't cause the problems either. why should they stay and fight an uphill battle, when they could easily start a wonderful life in place that is already thriving?

as an urbanist I see the potential, enjoy the challenge and feel a duty to stay, but I can totally understand why someone would want to get the hell out of here the first chance they get. life is short.
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Huggybear
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Username: Huggybear

Post Number: 93
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 192.217.12.254
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 4:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Rome wasn't built in a day AND it still exists


Rome wasn't built in a day but it was virtually destroyed in a day. And took 1,000 years to come back.

Rome went from more than a million people in 180 AD to 50,000 in 600 AD to 30,000 through most of the middle ages. It only hit 100,000 again around 1600.

It would be foolish to think that it couldn't happen here.
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 906
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 4:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

... many of the people that are leaving cant afford not to.. (in their opinion). And no, i dont think im over reacting. Im talking 10 years down the road.. I will be in my 30s. 10 Years later, my 40s. and 10 years later, ill be staring retirement in the fist... and most on this Forum will probably be DEAD.! No, its not that I want it now... BUT I WANT IT BEFORE I FUKING RETIRE.. You people seem to forget how fast time goes by, and how little time we have to enjoy what we have. Were talking 10 years down the road before the state will BEGIN to take a turn up OR down? Fuk... Thats a long ass time if you ask me.... You people dont seem to realize that whats happening in Detroit was laid out when i was a little kid, and only NOW are we starting to see fruition. Lets say 5 Years from now, the State gets it's shit together... That means that any action they make on lowering taxes or getting mass transit going wont be realized until AT THE MINIMUM 15 Years from now. I will be middle aged when this transition BEGINS... and thats ASSUMING that the state gets its shit together in the next 5 years.

In the 20s to the 40s, Detroit gained nearly 1 million people. Today, that type of transition in that short period of time is out of the question. Today, it seems like everything in our lives are SOO bogged down that in reality, nothing has really changed dramatically since 1990. Everything moves slow, every bill gets passed slow, and every bill is slow to get into action, every business decision takes 5 years to implement... Things used to happen borderline overnight... and now everything declines slow and long... and builds up slow and long. At this rate, the state will take 50 years to rebuild if it ever even does happen. By then, I will most likely be dead... and im really not that old.

Call me impatient, but we dont live forever...
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Registeredguest
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Username: Registeredguest

Post Number: 338
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.236.170.81
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 4:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And information and the general pace of life moved much slower back then. What took 100 years to build 700 years ago takes 1 year to build today. Information that took 2 years to transmit 1000 years ago can be transmitted in a tenth of a second today. The speed of information enables markets, such as metro-Detroit's market, to respond to crisis much faster. Therefore, comparing the time it took to rebuild Rome to the time it is taking to rebuild Michigan is a non-sequitor.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 752
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.89.12.30
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 5:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

What other state in the country would allow 350+ murders a year in our own back yards and go about our daily lives like nothing happened?


Both of the last two years - New York, Illinois, and California, with Pennsylvania not far behind.

Alexi, I guess the next question would be what keeps you here now and what would you move for?
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Huggybear
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Username: Huggybear

Post Number: 94
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 192.217.12.254
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 5:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Therefore, comparing the time it took to rebuild Rome to the time it is taking to rebuild Michigan is a non-sequitor.


Study your history. The time required to rebuild Rome had nothing to do with communications or construction technology. Building it the first time was a matter of a century or two. Subsequent cities such as Ravenna, Constantinople and others are a pretty good indicator that even a capital city could be built in one person's lifetime, provided there was a reason to build it. Rome's issue was irrelevance. And that is the lesson for Michigan - if you there is no reason to be there, all roads and routes of communication lead - OUT.
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Northend
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Username: Northend

Post Number: 432
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 69.212.227.66
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 5:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sure relevant examples can be found with N.American cities to support Alexei's shared impatience
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 286
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 5:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Alexei and jfried. Not only are people in charge around here arrogant and ignorant, as Alexei had pointed out, we see a sampling of those characteristics very often on this forum itself. So, the best and brightest college grads are entitled to decide for themselves how they want to live their lives and where they want to be at.

There were a few examples from this thread: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/61506.html?1134469075

such as Larry Page of Google, Tony Fadell of Apple and Michael McCorquodale of Mobius, just to name a few. People are going to leave if they can't get the kind of life that they can get elsewhere during this episode of their lives. Not everybody is noble like us in willing to wait 4-6 years, 10-12 years or even more.
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Registeredguest
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Username: Registeredguest

Post Number: 340
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.236.170.81
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 6:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Study history, eh?

Constantinople -- you mean Byzantine, the city that Emporer Constatine decided to make into the capital of the Eastern Roman empire. Yeah. Such a city was in existance 1000 years before Constatine christened it as capital of the east. In fact, it was an important trade center in the ancient Greek world.

Ravenna -- You mean the Etruscan and later Umbrian settlement that was later chosen to be capital of the Western Roman empire.

Both capitals you reference were cities long before they were capitals. Who needs to study history, huh?

The Michigan economy is already rebuilding and jobs are being added, just in new fields. And, unfortunately, they are not being added at a rate to offset the heavy, heavy losses in manufacturing.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1123
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 6:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know, sometimes its not a question of nobility, but where you can get a job that allows you to pay rent and eat.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2739
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 6:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jfried, it's completely understandable...on the surface. But, these people don't have a firm ground on which to stand when they leave this state and then bad-mouth it to every person they see in their new home.

If you are moving because of the lack of good jobs in your field, fine. But don't go around disparaging those that are left behind that don't necessarily have the means to turn the state around in a day, a month, or even 10 years.

I can't tell you how incredibly bitter Michiganders in particular, are when it comes to talking about their former home state. It's sickening the things I hear.
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Northend
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Username: Northend

Post Number: 433
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 69.212.227.66
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 6:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's ironic (inadequate choice of word here) is the fact that everything that is being taught in the business graduate program @ U of M for instance, uses the automotive industry as the backdrop. Considering where it is headed and the need to branch out to other industries or fields (i.e. TechTown) to carry the region through a healthy recovery, one might expect school institutions to think and train students outside of the automotive box.
The world does not revolve around the automotive industry or historic buildings.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1124
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 6:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmichigan, it doesn't have anything to do with money. There are plenty of people in Michigan who are well-off. Those people DO have the means and influence to turn the state around, but they either refuse to do so, or succumb to greed. I'm sure you don't mean to say that the Fords, Ilitches and the DeVos-es of the world don't have means and influence to affect change.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2742
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 8:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, greed is a huge factor I leave out, but, it's because I expect very little from the Michigan business community in terms of using their influence for good, so I thought that was a given not worth mentioning. It's the middle class who should really know better than to disparage with such malice their homestate after they leave. I can't fault anyone for wanting to live what they see as a better life, but to kick a man when he's down is just so cowardly and counterproductive.
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Registeredguest
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Username: Registeredguest

Post Number: 341
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.236.170.81
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 8:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Once again, the misinformation is being spread. The corporate community does give back; let's get informed.

Though I do not care for the family and think they have many motives that drive their donations besides raw generousity, the Devos and Van Andel families have donated a lot to the Grand Rapids Community; donations that have resulted in the sort of development that will get the state out of its funk. Van Andel Institute (world class research center), DeVos Children's Hospital, DeVos Campus of Grand Valley State University, Van Andel Museum Center, Van Andel Arena, DeVos Hall for Performance Arts, DeVos Place Convention Center.

Ilitch's also have many charities where they give back to the community. Ditto for Ford.

And we all know Peter Karamons' contributions.

And on the topic of corporate involvement with community development -- check out Detroit Renaissance (www.detroitrenaissance.org) and other orgs. comprised of corporate leadership engaged in changing the economic face of our community.

The problem is not lack of funds. It's lack of a request for community input for solutions. Community input at all levels creates a sense of community connectedness to the solution.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1125
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 8:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Continuing the thoughts of RG, I think there is a lot of arrogance among those elected to govern in Michigan. No one ever asks the Average Joe what he needs or wants. That kind of thing is always assumed, and often predicated on incorrect and ill-informed stereotypes, outdated information, or just plain incorrect assumptions. But one example of this arrogance is the ridiculous assertion that Michigan shouldn't invest in public transportation because "everyone wants to drive."
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Northend
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Username: Northend

Post Number: 444
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 69.212.227.66
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 8:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lobbies, lobbies, lobbies
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Mrjoshua
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Username: Mrjoshua

Post Number: 591
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 69.209.130.99
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 9:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The crisis Michigan is facing seems to be more one of focus than anything. While unemployment creeps upward and GM edges closer to bankruptcy, our Governor remains fixated on maintaining the State's entitlement spending. Hint: if Michigan continues to be a welfare oasis and fails to adopt limitations on handouts as other states have done out of necessity, it stands no chance of an economic recovery. We spend a quarter of every state tax dollar on Medicaid alone.

State to tighten welfare
Sweeping reforms would set lifetime limit of four years; critics fear lack of safety net for poor.
Gary Heinlein and Charlie Cain / Detroit News Lansing Bureau
12 December, 2005

"At the heart of the most sweeping welfare change here in a decade is a proposal to set a lifetime limit of 48 months' worth of benefits for those on welfare. While other states have adopted such policies, Michigan, until now, has opted not to impose time limits."

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20051212/P OLITICS/512120353&SearchID=732 29367564955
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 754
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.89.12.30
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 9:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yeah lobbies, but more than that, too. Jennie did do the town hall meeting thing a few times, but sometimes the public doesn't want to do what makes sense/cents either e.g. consolidation of smaller school districts.

for so long the focus in SE Michigan has been on the doom & gloom - the area really needs a realistic cheerleader and more positive thinking.

Campus Martius! Compuware! Pistons! Wings! Super Bowl! New road surfaces! New lofts! Riverwalk! Detroit Rises!
.
.
.
.
.
.
and maybe, just maybe, GM and Ford will get it turned around again! (face it, it's still true that when the business world says Detroit, they mean the auto industry)

(Message edited by lilpup on December 13, 2005)

(Message edited by lilpup on December 13, 2005)
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2743
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 10:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perception is, indeed, a very large part of the equation that is overlooked. If you ask the average Michiganian his or her outlook on this state, I can assure you it be a largely negative one, and more likely than not more negative than it should be if facts are taken into account. We seem to be some of the most self-defeating people in the country. Instead of seeing downsizing as a challenge, we seem to see it as the end of the world, that is, until the next end of the world comes...lol. We seem to be incredibly overreactive to our detriment, when we should be incredibly pro-active taking on issues before the fact, not after.

Remember, Michigan, the sky is falling and their is no way to fix it. But, that's how you like it forever and firmly putting your faith in the worst possible scenario. Forever self-defeating, forever self-fulfilling. Meanwhile, the country continues to pass us by, and we forget and take for granted every good thing that we have, letting it sit neglected until it rots to be point of no return. Michigan, physical, social, and economic decay are your future, and you their bitch.

*sigh*

You want to know where I learned to get so good at that? Right here in Michigan. Where's the prozac?

(Message edited by lmichigan on December 13, 2005)
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Huggybear
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Username: Huggybear

Post Number: 95
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.250.175.77
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 10:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Study history, eh?


Registeredguest, the point of that was building a capital city from a backwater, and I think you're putting too fine a point on it. I don't think anyone claimed that there was nothing on-site before. After all, very nearly every Roman city was built on someone else's site. The point was (and is) that you can come (and later go out) as an important place pretty quickly.
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 907
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 7:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

... 2000 years ago, Rome burned to the ground. What was left was built over with a 200,000 Sqft mansion (which was completed in less than 4 years). After Nero died, the Romans rebuilt the entire capitol city of 1 million people (perhaps more) complete with running water, aquaducts, public shitters, the colisseum, hospitols with doctors trained to do various types of surgery, sewers, public spaces, housing, Roads, a new forum, and a new marketplace that rivals modern day supermalls (literally)... it was carved into the side of a mountain... and had space for 150+ bazzars on 6 levels.

ALl this in less than a few decades.
and most was completed in less than 5 years.
THAT was 2000 years ago.

Your telling me that in todays world that we have to be patient waiting up to 50 years + to fully rebuild a city that is only one of more than 10 cities in this country of over 1 million people???

Everything today works on trends and shifts instead of action and consequences. The problem is that there is NEVER an answer anymore to any problem... its all left up to luck.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2748
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 9:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are you seriously comparing Rome to Detroit; their importances and purposes being so different that the comparison instantly falls a part? Rome was the center of a known-world empire. Detroit never was.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 606
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.41.160.200
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Immigration is the dynamic that can save Michigan.

Actually, 6.1 percent unemployment over a national average of 5 doesn't sound like a catstrope to me. In 1982 the rate was 14%+.
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Dtwphoenix
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Username: Dtwphoenix

Post Number: 35
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.190.215.201
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 1:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a whole, Michigan's unemployment isn't that bad. If you look at the rest of michigan outside of detroit, you have about a 5% unemployment.

MI pop: 10100K
unemp rate: 6.1%
=> # unemp: 616K

DET pop: 900K
unemp rate: 17%
=> # unemp: 153K

MI-DET pop: 9200K
=> #unemp = 616K-153K = 463K
=> MI-DET unemp rate = 5%
which is the national average

simple algebra-atcha!

Lower income detroiters just need some jobs in detroit or some transportation to jobs in the suburbs.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2751
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 2:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Lower income detroiters just need some jobs in detroit or some transportation to jobs in the suburbs."

Exactly.
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Dsmith
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Username: Dsmith

Post Number: 77
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 68.41.202.23
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 3:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^ To do what? Please explain how the undereducated/underskilled can provide value to an enterprise?
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Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 758
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.195
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 4:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

everyone has value, even if it means just taking out the trash

and good management *never* calls any employees 'unskilled'
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Alexei289
Member
Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 908
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 4:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

... what about all the stories of those poor immigrants that made gigantic fortunes....

I dunno, I think that if you cant find a job, make one. A DBA costs 10$ and you can market any name and any skill that you think if valuable. If you can take out trash... how bout trying to sell a bunch of old people 10-20$ to make sure their trash is taken out each week... even offer to bag it and replace bags. The whole thing will take approximatly 10 minutes per house... probably do 4 houses an hour...

After a truck to get from place to place... your looking at about 20-30 an hour... after advertising.


C'mon... there is no excuse for laziness... if there is a will, there is a way. Unfortunatly many people are taught just the opposit. Does this work for everyone?? FUK no.. but if that business grows, they need trash techs right??? theres the jobs you talk about.

Can this region survive on services alone??? fuk no... at some point, that service will need to expand to other parts of the country... to bring the loot back here... where it belongs.



Im sorry... but there is no excuse for laziness.

Ive done pretty good on that philosophy.... im 19, and make a pretty decent living... because i didnt let being broke for school bring me down...



And as for rome... so what??? Look at NO.. are they a capitol? They are rebuilding at a pretty rapid pace... why cant Detroit? Lack of funds ?? fuk no.. THey are shrinking the actual size of the damn city... If they dont develop enough in a neighborhood in the next 3 years... they will return that part of the city to wetland. In Detroit's case... why not create inner city townships void of city services until development requires it.... basically mothballing parts of the city.... saving millions while other parts that actually facilitate development get their services beefed up...


There are ways to deal with this issue that arent being used... thats the overall point...

Fuk the economy, we need to make our own money... its not going to be handed to us anymore just for being here.... long live the auto industry... becuase its basically dead.. time to move on....
so why arent we doing it?
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2752
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 4:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While there may be many unambitious people, I don't see how you can chalk that up to people being poor, all of the time. Do you know how many hustlers are in the Detroit, having dipped there hand in all types of business, legal, illegal, or both? Ambition is but one factor in aquiring wealth, and I'd be so bold as to say that it is not even the largest factor. On top of all the hustlers are those that didn't recieve good schooling (or skwandered good schooling), and are not stuck in perptually low-paying jobs. Now, if you can show me some welfare numbers for the area proving your point otherwise that laziness is the downfall of the state, please do.
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Cww
Member
Username: Cww

Post Number: 79
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 70.18.216.120
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 5:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A few comments:
I'm currently attending BSchool in North Carolina, and we use the US auto industry to discuss foreign exchange strategy (Toyota, Honda, etc.), operations, and corporate finance.
MI is going to continue on its spiral, as far as Wall St. is concerned. I've been talking to a few hedge fund managers the last couple of days and they're all convinced Ch. 11 will occur in the next 2 years for Ford and GM. So, take that for what it's worth. I'd like to move back, but I really have to ask myself why.
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Broken_main
Member
Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 491
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 198.109.44.2
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 6:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why??? Because your input and expertise could prove beneficial to the "turnaround" of Detroit.But you could just stand back and watch from afar and wait until WE turn it around. Then you can make your move and just cease the moment by returning when the city is on a HUGE upswing.

NOT me, I am here and I am helping. I am investing in my city, my schools and my community. By the time you get here my 160K condo will be worth 250k-300k. Look me up when you get here.
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Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 759
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.89.12.30
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 3:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone have or know of estimates of the underground economy in this area?
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Ray
Member
Username: Ray

Post Number: 607
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.41.160.200
Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 1:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It really is a tale of two cities. GM/Ford and the legacy production economy may be in trouble, but the number of headquarters & RD facilities keeps rising. This very week, some European company just moved its hq from Europe to Wixom.

The unsung Michigan miracle -- and it is truly divine intervention as far as I'm concerned -- is the hundreds of facilities built since 1990 (mainly by foriegn companies) in the cressent arc swinging from Auburn Hills to Brighton to Ann Arbor. Without that investment, we would be toast.
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Northend
Member
Username: Northend

Post Number: 519
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 69.217.229.122
Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 1:49 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with you Ray. The auto industry is going nowhere. The key is going to have to be for Detroit to get used to it but with the big three somewhat scaled down as it now represents a more global snapshot. Detroit will remain the bastion of the automotive world even if some marketing is being handled by some pubescent MBAs in Cali. Here we retain the pubescent engineers.

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