Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Book Cadillac news Previous Next
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Detroitman
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Username: Detroitman

Post Number: 876
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 216.78.34.91
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 9:49 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20051217/BUS INESS07/512170324/1020/BUSINES S
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 3132
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.79.82.155
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 12:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The BC project is a joke.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 9601
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 12:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I personally think the people doing the Vinton building should take the project over.
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 372
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 35.9.3.86
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 2:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sigh. I wish we at least knew what the "minor glitches" are.
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1953
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Username: 1953

Post Number: 638
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 65.54.98.106
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 3:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Top notch reporting by the Freep. Way to really get into the details of the story.
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 267
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 69.218.157.241
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 3:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

at least it is only being dealyed, for now anyway, by a month....especially with the holiday break, it really isnt that far off
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2775
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 4:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As risky as a development this is, I'm surprised there haven't been more delays and backpeddling. This sounds like a very minor setback, something that happens alot in large-scale developments/redevelopments in cities in general. This isn't a joke, it's called reality.
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Dove7
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Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1847
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 5:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's the big reality. It's called supply and demand. There is a lack demand in Detroit. If Detrit ever gets that population and business in the city then you'll see many of those vacant and abandoned buildings be restored.

Living here in the Bay area gives me another dimension on how things work. San Francisco has many old buildings. I've seen buildings that were closedup, but it didn't take long for someone to jump on them for renovation. The thing that this place has is alot demands and business here. Detroit lacks this now.

Detroit's situation isn't a simple one because many companies won't move into the city.

I really question if the B.C. will come to be...
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Jasoncw
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Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 63
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 67.149.141.170
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 6:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They probably just discovered something with the building, I'm sure buildings that have been abandoned for so long have some surprises in them.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 36
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.60.133.115
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 6:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yea, but they already gutted the whole thing, so I would thing they would have discovered something alot sooner. That is probably not the reason. Maybe there is something wrong with some of the finances or they found other ways to help fund the project so then they have to add that into their funding ideas.

(Message edited by Rbdetsport on December 17, 2005)
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3306
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.176.88
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 6:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The glitches are purely paperwork processing delays where the review of various documents at the Federal level has taken longer than estimated by HUD and Park Service
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5205
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 7:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, no. Dove7 says it won't happen. Case closed.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1384
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.212.225.167
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 8:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker:
Thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear that it's only a matter of paperwork at the federal level.

Dove7:
When was the last time you were in Detroit?

Patrick:
Please go piss in someone else's Cheerio's for a change.

(Message edited by fnemecek on December 17, 2005)
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Jfwaterburry
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Username: Jfwaterburry

Post Number: 22
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 68.20.88.38
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 1:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Love it or hate it, Fnemecek... Dove7 is right.

And... I'm pretty sure you know it.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2783
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 1:57 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lol, yeah, why should we even bother listening to anyone else?
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Matt_the_deuce
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Username: Matt_the_deuce

Post Number: 413
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.27.204
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 2:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And tell us something about Detroit that we don't know - that Detroit doesn't have the demand of Chicago or San Fransisco.

This thread is about a news report in the paper and an exlanation from someone close to the deal. Does this mean the deal will all work out just dandy? Who knows...

Jfwaterbury - Can't wait to see those two 2,000 footers planned for Chicago. Thank you so much for building them, you are a very special person, and one we should all get down on one knee and thank because you created such a great city in Chicago. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jfwaterburry
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Username: Jfwaterburry

Post Number: 25
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 68.20.88.38
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 2:26 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oops... wrong thread to slam jfwaterburry!

Little tip: When retorting post in the same thread.

And... your welcome. Although, I didn't expect to receive credit from you. Really... it was the little people that made it all possible. I would like to thank them, my mother (for always believing in me), and God (for creating earth so that I could bless it with super-scrapers).
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Everyman
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Username: Everyman

Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 24.136.14.239
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 2:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

if that stupid tv tower that looks like a pair of needlenose pliers gets built i will move. i don't want to have to look at that piece of shit all of the time.
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Matt_the_deuce
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Username: Matt_the_deuce

Post Number: 414
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.27.204
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 2:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, right thread to slam Jfwaterburry!

You can take your little shots at Detroit, but just remember, they all add up, and they don't have to be in the same thread!!!!!! LOL

Little tip: Check your Chicago elitism at the door.

Other than that, Welcome to the forum!!!!!!!!!
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Jfwaterburry
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Username: Jfwaterburry

Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 68.20.88.38
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 3:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ha...Haven't read my past posts have you?

Tip 2: Do some research before posting... and check your 'I have more posts than you' elitism at the door.

Tip 3: Use the thread context to understand the purpose of the post. For example, my post was in reference to the previous post (in its respective thread) which stated that corporations were moving away from high-rise offices and toward sprawling campuses.
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Matt_the_deuce
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Username: Matt_the_deuce

Post Number: 415
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.27.204
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 3:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Please quit giving me tips - you're just proving my point.

I have read some of your other posts - and you're not that bad actually. We should all shop in Detroit as much as possible!

Your original post in this thread had nothing to do with the topic. Sometimes research is right under our noses! Read the first 2 parts of my original post. Glass is always half empty huh? and to take a shot at Fnemecek is totally uncalled for. If you did YOUR research you would know that he is responding to forumers he has been interacting with for years.

BTW - I'm not proud about my # of posts - considering how long I've been registered here. If this is the measuring stick for elitism, then we're all in trouble. LOL

You really think Chicago is going to construct TWO 2,000 footers? Both of which would dwarf the Sears tower and be the two tallest buildings in the world by far? I know you brought it up to prove the point that super skyscrapers still hold cache - but this statement is bordering on naive. BTW - Trump Tower Chicago will be 1,125 ft.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 544
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 198.109.44.2
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 3:58 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm. I must have missed something here. Why all the chat about 2000 ft towers in CHICAGO??? Maybe I made a wrong turn somewhere.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2786
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 4:00 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, you didn't make a wrong turn, they made the wrong turn.
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Matt_the_deuce
Member
Username: Matt_the_deuce

Post Number: 416
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.27.204
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 4:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ha ha ha - sorry about that. Just an addendum to my post and voila...

Jfwaterburry's cheap shot at Fnemecek just set me off.

Back on point: Per Skulker - The Book Caddilac looks like it encountered a delay in paperwork at the Federal level.

I don't think this is much cause for alarm.

People sure are jumpy with this project...
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2787
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 4:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, the unease is not completely unfounded. After all, the original developer didn't work out. My hope for the project (and the way that the facts have pointed all along) stems from just how many people have been involved over the years, and the interest grown in the community. They could even lose another developer and this things still wouldn't just roll over and die. There has been too much publicity, too much prep-work, too much...everything for this to just disappear off of the radar screen. I'm a young guy, but I can't think of any other redevelopment attempt that has been worked on so hard despite a pretty weak downtown market in terms of larger hotels that doesn't make the risk look to good to many developers (i.e. still in its infancy).
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Matt_the_deuce
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Username: Matt_the_deuce

Post Number: 417
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.27.204
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 5:26 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is high drama. This thing has had a ton of hope pinned to it, and with good reason. Imagine if there was an announcement of a new hotel to be contructed in the CBD with 400 + rooms and 70 apartments, ballrooms, restaurants etc. in 29 stories taking up the better part of a whole city block. Everyone would be doing backflips. Well, this is that plus the enormous lifting of baggage that's associated with the resurrection of one of our cities jewels. Pumping a ton of life into Washington Blvd. Bringing back a building that would never get built today. Bringing back part of our history.

It is a huge deal
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2789
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 6:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It really is a huge deal. The sheer size of this redevelopment project ranks it up there with the great historic restoration/renovations. There are few historic hotels this tall. It's a huge risk, but one that if pushed from the right direction could pay off big in the not-to-distant future. This is really the one projects Detroit MUST make work to actually solidify a downtown turnaround, something building all of the stadiums in the world couldn't do.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 546
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 198.109.44.2
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 8:19 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmich... I couldn't agree with you more. This Hotel/Condo deal is going to be a sweet addition to the area. It could also be that extra pus that is needed to boost business on Washington BLVD.

You know i have to throw this out there...But think of the walk from the BC, down Washington, aver past the Rosa Parks Transportation Terminal past a lot of new business, restaurants, clothing stores that seem to pop up overnight due to spinoff from the brand new MGM casino(where you would end up eventually to get your gamble on. Then you win big, leave out with your winnings go buy that leather you saw in the Al Wissam window...get a bite to eat at um, lets say Chili's and get back to BC where you will sit in your jacuzzi suite, cause your feet are a bit tired.

work with me Lmich...LOL
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3246
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.83.224
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 12:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dove7, there is a demand for hotels in the city. The problem with the BC is its cost and Ferchil doesn't want to pay it. As I have stated before, if Archer had opened up the CBD to Detroit based Black owned companies instead of working to get the ones there out, there would be several Black owned Hotels today. That is where the demand is, among the Black community. Detroit is not going to compete with the suburban hotels. The only thing Detroit can do with that is draw in people for the events like the autoshow then the rest of the year the hotels will sit vacant. Many folks are not coming to Detroit because they do not wish to convention among a Black community. Like Chicago, forces like the DDA or DEGC, seek to make the CBD a oasis looking different from the rest of the city. But that costs alot of money which folks don't have and are not willing to easily gamble on something that in reality won't work.

The BC project, as planned, is doomed to failure because of the cost. Some folks are secretly hoping that it gets completed and to hell with what happens to Ferchil because they will hope to scopp up the remains at a bargain. Folks like those who have been profiting from the DPS construction and realestate
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 7914
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.228.200.175
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 12:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brian, I will bet you $50.00US that the B-C is a go...
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Llyn
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Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1311
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.61.197.206
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 4:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So Brian, are you backing off your earlier statements that it will never even be built?
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Ilovedetroit
Member
Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 1867
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 68.40.224.107
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 4:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whatever happens I hope it happens and soon - I would love to see the BC redone.
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Dove7
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Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1853
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 4:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brian,

i'm not just speaking on the hotel industry. I'm talkin about supply and demand in Detroit period. Many of the buildings in the CBD aren't fully occupied. And Detroit also has office buildings that are just totally abandoned.
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3247
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.83.224
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 6:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Llyn its already built. What I have always said is that it can't be succesful because of the high cost and the government mandated actions along with the DDA's (in part) assumptions and predictions.

Dove7, I know, and those too are in demand. BUT by Black business owners who would like to invest in the CBD but are locked out by the politics and the current property owners. How else can you have that blight and zero action when there are business in Detroit who want to have a presence in the CBD. But like history, the current owners want use there but only as renters. Then as they use us to pay the bills they remove us in hopes of getting other tenants. Its part of what occured in the Archer years. But as Archer promised prosperity around the corner, his government money, including the millions in HUD funds, ran out. He had to leave office and since the city had no real plan in the Archer years, KK started from scratch. (That is regardless if you think KK did a good or bad job thus far.)

Its like I have said, all development in the CBD is based on politics.


The county, state and city are taking personal property (folks homes) in Detroit while they let property sit in the CBD. In the CBD the DDA purchases property that otherwise would be demolished. If the DDA had not acquired the BC, Archer would have been forced to tear it down. Just like he was almost forced to tear down the MCS. The excuse is that the taxes are paid but those properties are operated illegally and in violation of state law.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 1625
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.129.170
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 6:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Brian, in case you were unaware.... Archer has been out of office for 4 years!! Nice try blaming him though... but if there is politics involved in the CBD, then you have only KK to blame!

(Message edited by gistok on December 18, 2005)
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Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1385
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.236.165.24
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 10:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Love it or hate it, Fnemecek... Dove7 is right.

And... I'm pretty sure you know it.



Kind of sort of, but - sorry - no.

Dove7, stated that there needs to be a demand for a project to work. However, he didn't point to anything that would demonstrate that the demand didn't exist.

In that sense, his posts are a lot like saying that Des Moines, Iowa gets an average of 4.51 inches of rainfall in August therefore the New York Yankees won't win the World Series next year. (Okay - slight exageration, but the point is there.)

Dove7 states a true fact but doesn't connect it to his argument. He just throws it out there. By his tone, he implies that there isn't enough demand for hotel rooms, lofts or retail in downtown Detroit to support a redeveloped Book-Cadillac Hotel.

And you, Jfwaterburry, seemed to get your feathers just slightly ruffled when I asked Dove7 when he was last in Detroit.

It was fair to me to ask Dove7 a question like that because he said in his post that he doesn't live here. This, of course, would explain his ignorance about the number of projects that have moved forward in the area and why the demand for a B-C project exists.
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Dove7
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Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1855
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 10:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fnemeck,

actually you too got your feathers ruffled too. You assume that because I'm no longer in the area I'm ignorant of what's happening here. You already came to a conclusion before asking me the questions. I do have a computer an family back back there you know.

I never said that Detroit wasn't making any progress. Detroit was making progress before I had left the area. BUT this still doesn't mean that there is a lack of supply in many areas. This is the key point that you are missing. The B.C. thing went through many phases throughout the years and diffrent owners. The issues back then were a lack of demand. Without that demand the hotel could no longer remain open. In general you still have vacant buildings in the CBD and many offices that are vacant in buildings. There's a reason why those buildings and offices remain vacant.
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Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1386
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.236.165.24
Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 11:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

You assume that because I'm no longer in the area I'm ignorant of what's happening here.



Actually, I concluded that you were ignorant because of your posts. I offered your absense from the area as an explanation for your ignorance.

Yes, there are vacant building in the CBD. However, that has no direct correlation with whether or not the B-C will suceed. The simple fact that there isn't enough demand to bring 100 projects back on-line doesn't mean that there isn't enough to bring 1 on-line.

If the simple presense of vacant buildings was enough to establish that a large property could not be brought back then the Kales Bldg. would still be vacant. And the Lofts of Merchants Row. Etc.

The hotel market in the CBD can support another hotel (especially one that won't open until 2008 when the NCAA men's basketball Sweet 16 and Elite 8 rounds will be here).
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1856
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 12:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In that case I too will conclude that you are ignorant because of your post. The buildings that you gave as a comparison to the B.C. are poor examples. The buildings aren't hotels. There was a time that Detroit had plenty of hotels. But the demand went down over the years because many of the businesses have left. It hasn't been until recent 7 to 8 years that Detroit has made a come back. A slow one at that. But even with the comebacks the demand for hotels aren't there. Yeah we can use these NCAA and Superbowls as examples, but Detroit doesn't get those events every year. Detroit needs a annually enviornment where business and entertainment is big in the city to the point where it doesn't have a choice but to put up hotels. and not put them up for temporary events. Big difference. I gaurentee you this much, if the business was like it from the 70's and back, the B.C. wouldn't had closed it's doors. look at how many creations and inventions that they came up with 30 plus years ago to keep the building open. And back then, Detroit had a better economy than what they presently do.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2800
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 12:46 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The plan for the B-C includes a 457-room hotel which is only a little over twice as large as the recently built Hilton Garden Inn Downtown Detroit. Included in this will be 66 residential condominium units, and a large amount of conference space. The developer is smart enough to make this mixed use, making it a bit less risky. You make it sound as if a developer is proposing another RenCen (1,000+ room), and they aren't.
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Dove7
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Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1858
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 12:51 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Never said that it was a Ren Cen type. Anyways, the point of hotel demand is also apart of the topic. Yeah if that works, then more power to them. let's just hope that those 66 residential condos will be enough to keep that building together if the hotel part doesn't work and let's hope that those conference rooms are used often to keep money pumping into this giant mammoth.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2803
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 1:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dove, the thing is that eventually (and no one really knows how far that is, but not more than 5 years) the hotel will be more than in demand, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when. Only time will tell if this project is ready now, or 5 years down the road, but it will be. Of that I have no doubt. Things aren't getting worse for hotel occupancy downtown, that much is for sure.
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Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1387
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.236.165.24
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 1:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dove7:

quote:

In that case I too will conclude that you are ignorant because of your post.



Great, we each think the other is ignorant when it comes to forecasting how feasible the B-C. In the coming years, we'll find for sure which one of us knows the market better.

quote:

The buildings that you gave as a comparison to the B.C. are poor examples. The buildings aren't hotels.



True, there hasn't been a historic hotel that's re-open in the CBD therefore no one could cite an example of one failing or suceeding. The buildings that I cited were examples of residential conversions and retail use of a rehabbed historic property. Since the B-C will involve the partial use of residential and retail, it's worthwhile to cite those examples.

Regarding Detroit's hotel market, Smith Travel Reseach reported occupancy for October 2005 (the most recent month availalbe) at 61.3% - up 5.9% from 2004. Not a bad increase.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1862
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 4:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nope,

never throught that you were ignorant for giving your point of view. I just thought that it was foolish on your part to assume that my posting was ignorance.

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