  Harmonie Member Username: Harmonie Post Number: 541 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 198.109.32.15 |
Houston, Minneapolis, Cleveland and Detroit all claim to have the most theater seats outside of New York. Is there a list? Was there ever a list? I can't find anything except each city's claim. Does anyone know off hand what the total number is for Detroit? I don't think we are number two anymore but the visitdetroii website says we are still. Do you think we are even number three? | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 7929 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.228.65.185 |
Depends on whether the seats are available for use or is it a case of all seats in the city whether used or not. I had always thought that Detroit was number two for all seats total. | ||
Atperry Member Username: Atperry Post Number: 237 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.137.219.205 |
I beleive Detroit only claims to have the most this side of the Mississippi | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1130 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Well, then Detroit would be wrong, because New York has the most seats east of the Mississippi. Cleveland only claims to have the largest performing arts center outside of New York (Playhouse Square). No claims on number of seats there. Is there a point to this thread? | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 555 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.73.197.225 |
Mine's bigger than yours... | ||
Harmonie Member Username: Harmonie Post Number: 542 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 198.109.32.15 |
Yeah... Who rightfully gets to say "the most number of theater seats outside of New York"...It is a decently impressive distinction especially for Detroit because many people aren't aware that we have theater at all. I've been on tours where people have claimed the D was number 2..and it is still on the convention bureau's website. If it's true I would pass it on to others or maybe even if we were three that would be something to know and tell folks. I know there are folk on this forum that are big on theater history and info and I was hoping they would be able to help. | ||
Tortfeasor Member Username: Tortfeasor Post Number: 412 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 192.217.231.54 |
Who cares? Even if we are 5 (if we are behind Cleveland, Houston, and Minneapolis), it is a stat that you can still pass around to others. If you watch (and actually believe) what you see on TV (especially the news) the D can only be in the top 5 for crime-related stats. Spread the word and help combat false impressions. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1132 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Twin Cities are second in number of seats per capita. Houston Theater District is second in number of seats *in a concentrated downtown area*. Do you feel better now? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1642 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.206 |
Well Harmonie..... I think I can help answer that, but it is somewhat complicated. Part of the problem is how big of an area can one include in a theatre district. Cleveland's claim is based on one small area (Playhouse Square) which consists of 5 theatres (Palace, State, Ohio, Allen and Hanna) within a 2 block area. Detroit's Theatre distric goes from Grand Circus Park all the way up to New Center, and includes Orchestra Hall, Masonic, Majestic, Bonstelle, Hillberry, DIA Theatre, and of course the Fisher. New York City includes 42nd streets and all the streets around for blocks and blocks in the Broadway theatre district. I think that Minneapolis's claim is questionable. They only have the State and Shubert. All of their other old theatres downtown were destroyed in the 50's-70's. Maybe they built a new auditorium or two. Ditto for Houston. Here's the comparison for Cleveland vs. Detroit. CLEVELAND: Palace Theatre: (3,680 seats) State Theatre: (3,316 seats) Allen Theatre: (3,009 seats) Ohio Theatre: (1,800 seats) Hanna Theatre: (1,300 seats) TOTAL: (13,105 seats) DETROIT: Fox Theatre: (5,174 seats) Masonic Theatre: (4,600 seats) Opera House: (2,765 seats) Orchestra Hall: (2,286 seats) State Theatre: (2,200 seats) Fisher Theatre: (2,089 seats) Music Hall: (1,778 seats) Majestic: (1,300 seats) Bonstelle: (1,200 seats) DIA Theatre: (1,200 seats) Hillberry: (550 seats) New Theatre/The Max)(500 seats) Gem: (451 seats) Century: (200 seats) Chrysler Theatre: (150 seats) TOTAL: (26,443 seats) Note: the 500 seats attributable to the Max is the new recital hall. The Chrysler Theatre is the new Dance Theatre on the 6th floor of the Opera House, which was not open yet when I visited back in August. Also the Detroit count does not include the smaller venues such as Bleu and St. Andrews. Folks... get off Harmonie's case, will ya! She's a fellow Preservation Wayne Theatre Tour Guide, so don't mess with us!  And by the way, Detroit only claimed to be #2 behind Broadway in NYC. (Message edited by gistok on December 20, 2005) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1133 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Where do you draw the line, though? You could just as easily include theaters at Cleveland State and Case Western Reserve Universities. You haven't even touched Severance Hall. Does one count Ford Auditorium for Detroit? What about House of Blues in Cleveland? Never mind off-Broadway theaters (like you included the Century and Chrysler for Detroit). Again, WHAT'S THE POINT? | ||
Northend Member Username: Northend Post Number: 559 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 69.217.229.122 |
dan in dc lol | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1643 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.206 |
People ask questions, others answer them. It's that simple. (Message edited by gistok on December 20, 2005) | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 767 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.201 |
Hilberry has only 550 seats? I thought it was bigger than the Bonstelle. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1147 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.217.81.203 |
Gistok, You've vastly understated the number of theaters in Minneapolis, both within the theater district downtown as well as those spread through out the city. Minneapolis has a theater scene rivaled probably only by NYC. Independent, original theater is huge in Minneapolis (and somewhat in St. Paul). Some of the heavy hitters are the Guthrie, Ordway, Orpheum, State, Theater in the Round, etc. doing original as well as touring performances. Here's a link showing Minneapolis having more theater seats per capita in the US other than NYC. http://www.minneapolis.org/thi ngstodo/theaterandmusic.asp | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 102 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.212.46.167 |
the majestic doesnt have seats | ||
Jmarx Member Username: Jmarx Post Number: 13 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 69.81.180.215 |
Shouldn't Boston be mentioned somewhere on this short list of possible cities? I'm not sure about the number of theaters there, but they do seem to have a vibrant theater district... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1644 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.3.160 |
Ummmm, I just checked the Minneapolis website. It states that there are only 3 theatres downtown in the Hennepin Theatre District (and I said 2). And only one of those (the State) was a former movie palace (a very opulent theatre). Minneapolis's greatest theatre (the best in all of Minnesota) was the 4,029 seat Minnesota, which was pounded to rubble decades ago. Just what is the population of Minneapolis proper? Maybe 400,000 (a guess)? Well that's only about 40% of Detroit's. I never mentioned percentages, they (Minneapolis website) did. I bet that if you counted all the theatre seats in Royal Oak, and factored in the population (75,000?), you might come up with a percentage even higher than Minneapolis. That is the problem with using statistics. The different statistics for the different cities cannot really be compared to each other, because they are referring to different metrics. And I've learned that just because a website boasts about something, that doesn't make it so. It reminds me of visiting Europe. The number of cathedrals in Europe that boast about being among the 6 largest in the world, numbers at least 20! But it makes for good tourist fodder. Even here in Detroit, the Detroit Opera House boasts that the Capitol Theatre was the 5th largest theatre in the world when it opened back in 1922 with 4,250 seats. Well downtown theatre impressario John Kunsky liked to exaggerate in his theatre counts. He counted every toilet seat and lobby seat in the theatre (and then some). According to Theatre Historical Society, the original Capitol Theatre never had more than 3,384 seats in the auditorium, which meant it was not the 5th largest in the world when it opened. Another "apples and oranges" about theatres is # of theatres versus # of seats. Most of Broadway NYC theatres are small, mostly 1,600 seats or less (and mammoth Radio City Music Hall is nowhere near the Broadway district). Detroit has some very large theatres. So even counting theatres is problematic. And as for Minneapolis, does it mention the size of the theatres? The largest that I am aware of is the State, which has 2,400 seats. Even Cleveland, which could have the highest concentration of theatres in a small area has its' drawbacks. In Michigan, the best and most opulent theatres are in Detroit. In Ohio, the best most opulent theatres are NOT in Cleveland (they're in Columbus, Akron, Youngstown, Marion, and Canton). Cleveland's finest theatre, the Palace, doesn't hold a candle next to Columbus's Loew's Ohio, or Akron's Civic. Boston also has some great theatres. The Wang Center (former Metropolitan) is a 4,400 seat show stopper (our own C. Howard Crane helped design that one). The newly restored Keith's Memorial (now 2,700 seat Opera House) is a thing of heart rending beauty worthy of the finest European Opera House. Boston probably beats out all east coast major cities, except NYC. That is partly because both Philadelphia and Baltimore have lost ALL of their downtown movie palaces. Washington DC only has the 2,400 seat Warner downtown. Of course these other cities have other performing arts venues, both old and new, but NOTHING beats out the palatial grandeur of former movie palaces for showstopping performing arts centers (except of course for old opera houses). I cannot speak for Houston, because I have not seen their claims or website. Even though Detroit claims to have the 2nd largest district in the USA, it is a large district. Cities like to boast, and Detroit, for whatever it has in the number of seats, has an awesome number of surviving grand old entertainment palaces. And as far as I'm concerned, that's what really counts. And it is because of them (IMHO) that downtown is experiencing a resurgence. (Message edited by gistok on December 20, 2005) | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 759 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 204.39.225.78 |
Well no matter what, Detroit can always brag about having the most parking inside the theaters than any othe city. | ||
L_b_patterson Member Username: L_b_patterson Post Number: 272 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.76.122.186 |
kudos to gistok for actually knowing akron's civic atmospheric-atcha | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1646 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.3.160 |
Thanks L_b_patterson! The thing I forgot to mention about Cleveland is that it peeked too early (booming building period). Its greatest movie palaces were all built in 1921-22. In Detroit, with the exception of the 1922 Capitol, we peaked from 1925-28 (State, Michigan, Hollywood, United Artists, Fox, Fisher). And those movie palaces after 1925 were the ones that got real exotic or real opulent. That would help explain why theatre's like Columbus's Loew's Ohio (1928) and Akron's Civic (1929) were more highly regarded than the Cleveland theatre's. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1135 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Thanks for the info, Gistok, but DC also has the National Theatre, Ford's Theatre, and the Shakespeare Theatre downtown. I hate threads like this, because as we see above, there tend to be a lot if omissions (intentional or not) and selective interpretations. At the end of the day, it's not much more than an ego stroking exercise anyway, so is it really worth counting theater seats? | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 1910 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
ahh ... but which city has the most EMPTY seats ... | ||
Harmonie Member Username: Harmonie Post Number: 543 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 198.109.32.15 |
"More than two million people annually visit Houston’s Theater District, a 17-block area in the heart of downtown Houston. The district is home to Houston’s eight world-class performing arts organizations... The Theater District has nearly 13,000 seats, which ranks second only behind New York City for the most theater seats in a concentrated downtown area" Well then if we have anywhere near the 26,000 Gistok quoted above then we kick Houston's ASS!! Which matters, Danindc, because when I give tours formally or informally I like to tell people some of the little known facts about Detroit that will get them thinking about how little they know about Detroit and hopefully make them want to know more. I love hearing someone say, "Wow...I never knew that...that's pretty cool." As cheesy as it sounds, I can see their appreciation of Detroit rising even if only a little. And though it may be stupid many people value lists and rankings so why not try to have a positive one to balance with all of the bad ones. So THANKS GISTOK!! I got what I wanted from this thread, and that is to have the knowledge and information to say that our downtown theater district has the second largest number of seats outside of New York. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1137 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Harmonie, did you not read the quote you posted? Doesn't seem to me like you're very much interested in accuracy as much as you are ego-tripping Detroit. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1647 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.3.249 |
Dan, you really do have a bug up your butt about this thread, don't you? Well then go read something else, and quit bugging the folks who like to hear about theatres. We've explained the differences in how things are counted. Whether its about theatre seats, or even population statistics, all metrics have their inherent troubles. Population statistics for cities around the country show Detroit as #11. But if you notice, some cities have swallowed up their suburbs, and include them in their population statistics. Detroit doesn't include them, which is why we're #11. Some metro areas can include more than one state, such as Philadelphia, Chicago and New York. Washington even includes another metro area in its statistics (Baltimore). Yet Detroit is not allowed to include Windsor in the metro statistics. Detroit just happens to be unique in that it has a larger city center, going all the way up to the New Center area. Another statistical abberation? Of course. Los Angeles has a metro area nearly as big as a small state. And Detroit has a theatre district as big as a small city... So yes we here in Detroit have to take our statistical lumps and be #11 as far as big cities go, but were #2 as far as theatre districts go, and that's what our theatre tour guides will continue telling our visitors... whether purists like it or not. But I'll tell ya what, we'll stop claiming to have the #2 theatre district, if Washington DC stops claiming Baltimore, as part of their metro area (claiming that metro Washington is more populated than metro Detroit). (Message edited by gistok on December 21, 2005) | ||
Harmonie Member Username: Harmonie Post Number: 544 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 198.109.32.15 |
Um...did you read my post Danindc? Houston only has 13,000 seats in its 17 block theater district. Detroit has over 26,000 seats in about the same area. Hell, even if you cut the area in half to 8&1/2 blocks you would still beat Houston. Fox Theater (5,174 seats) Masonic Theatre: (4,600 seats) Opera House: (2,765 seats) State Theatre: (2,200 seats) Music Hall: (1,778 seats) New Theatre/The Max)(500 seats) Gem: (451 seats) And Minneapolis having only a few theaters can only make the claim using per capita which I would venture to guess that with all the people who live in New York that Detroit might even beat New York in the per capita rankings. Therefore, logically and factually Detroit should hold the position of second largest number of theater seats outside of NYC. And thank you again Gistok for your information and enthusiasm. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1149 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.212.61.146 |
Minneapolis may not have the most theater seats in the country, but the number of seats are definately in the top 10. The theater scene is not limited to one "district". They are spread through out the whole city (Riverfront, Warehouse district, University district, Loring Park, etc., etc., etc.). By the way, the Orpheum has the most seats in Minneapolis, not the State which is dwarfed by it. The downtown has 6 theaters that I can think of off hand (Orpheum, State, Hey City, Theatre De La Jeune Lune, the new Guthrie and Pantages). There are dozens more within walking distace of downtown. The Ordway accross the Mississippi has the most seats in the Metro area as well as the state. However, you don't have to have a huge theater to make it in the top 10. You've obviously never been to Minneapolis or you wouldn't so easily discount the number of theater seats. And Minneapolis has around 360,000 residents. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1651 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.170 |
Hey Bvos, it's not whether or not I've been to Minneapolis... even NYC's Broadway theatre district does nothing for me. I am a MOVIE PALACE freak, plain and simple. And the best are the downtown palaces. Movie palaces are also for the most part much larger than legitimate theatres (a very large theatre is +2,800 seats). Old legitimate theatres and new theatres of all types do nothing for me. No prejudice against Minneapolis! My favorite Movie Palaces outside Detroit are: Chicago: Chicago, Uptown, Oriental, Palace, Auditorium. Joliet IL: Rialto. Aurora IL: Paramount. Columbus: Ohio. Akron: Civic. Boston: Metropolitan (Wang Center), Keith's Memorial (Opera House). NYC: Mark Hellinger, Loew's 175th, Brooklyn Paramount, Bronx Paradise, Loew's Kings, Loew's Valencia. San Francisco: Castro, Golden Gate. Oakland: Paramount, Fox, Grand Lakes. LA: UA, Los Angeles, Orpheum, Pantages, Wiltern. Hollywood: Egyptian, Chinese, Pantages. Atlanta: Fox. Jersey City: Loew's Jersey. Kansas City: Loew's Midland. Louisville: Loew's/UA. St. Louis: Fox. Tampa: Tampa. Miami: Olympia (Gusman Center). San Antonio: Majestic. Seattle: Paramount, 5th Ave. Portland: Paramount. My favorite destroyed theatres were: Detroit: old Fisher, Michigan (1/2 destroyed), Hollywood. San Francisco: Fox. Chicago: Tivoli, Marbro, Paradise, Granada, Southtown. New York: Roxy, Capitol, Paramount, Brooklyn Fox, Loew's 72nd. Philadelphia: Mastbaum, Stanley. Cleveland: Hippodrome. Minneapolis: Minnesota. Toledo: Paramount. St. Louis: Ambassador. Portland: Oriental These were all big movie palaces in the 3,000-5,920 seat range. |
