Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2006 » Lee Plaza Roof Completely Stripped « Previous Next »
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5192
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 65.92.101.177
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Today over at Detroit Funk about 1/2 way down the page, there are new photos of the Lee Plaza without the green roof. The copper has been completely removed...

Sad.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 9653
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 2:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep, that dude over at South of 8 Mile reported it stripped a few weeks ago. He was just too damn lazy to go take pictures of it. Also, not sure if dETROITfUNK has got on it yet or not, but the artist who did the UA is now doing a building over at Fort and Livernois. He has a "We've moved" announcement on the UA. Quite a few of the windows have already be painted up on the new digs.
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 293
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.10.63.140
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 2:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dETROITfUNK has photos of the "weve moved announement" up in todays post as well...and SS he gives credit to you for reporting the Lee Plaza stripped FIRST :-)
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2099
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.58.137
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well that's it for the Lee Plaza. :-( Cost of restoration will be next to impossible and irreparable damage will now follow.

It amazes me how whoever did that, did it unnoticed. No action pictures; just gone one day. It had to be a complex, lengthy and dangerous task considering there are no elevators.

Like the famous removal of the lions and other appointments, it just happens. Poof, it's gone.

The careless danger to pedestrians created by these thieves is so thoughtless, particularly with the high school across the street.
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Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936

Post Number: 162
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 207.200.116.134
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My grandfather (1895-1979) worked at the Lee Plaza as a painter/decorator for about ten years in the 1950's. He took some photos of the interior back then. I'm gonna have to wander over to my mother's to see if she still has them; will post if I can find 'em.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 576
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.117.147
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here ya go Sport - Fisher Body Murals (new UA)

I even dared to eat at the Taco Bell across the street from it ! LOL
(aka: "keeping it real")

I just helped move a tenant (the largest paying tenant - uh oh...) from the Book Tower yesterday, and I was shocked to notice a great deal of copper missing from the peaks of the Book Caddy as well.

Interesting to note that Lee Plaza was sealed immediately AFTER the roof stripping was complete.

I also heard from a little bird that when Metro Times was in LP doing the article on DetroitBlog.org , there was a great number of scavanged terracotta details lined up ready to go on the floor near the open window on the west facade. These details are around many of the windows, and they have been disappearing at a very steady rate as well.
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Bertz
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Username: Bertz

Post Number: 484
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.61.15.89
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More evidence that the vast majority of Detroiters don't give 2 shits about anything
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 298
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.10.63.140
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

uh oh, where did the tenant move to Mauser? stay in detroit i hope??
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 382
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 35.12.21.204
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe the Lee Plaza terra cotta will show up on eBay if it hasn't been there already. Or on a new apartment or condo on Chicago.
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 1598
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.2.148.80
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The roof was not just gone one day, it has been disappearing a little bit at a time. Scrappers are people that have all the time in the world.
I commute to A2 twice a week, and see the LP as I bank the curve on the bridge from I 96 to I 94.
I had noticed last week that the last of the copper on the south side was gone.
I don't think that this means that the bldg is unrepairable, but as it is city owned, I predict demolition by neglect.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 577
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.123.250
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brighton is where they moved to - The Book is suffering too many issues. Small, outdated, too many floods down the elevator shafts (try moving out while theyre pumping out those sub-basements!) and recently a flurry of utility shut-off notices.

Its a law office, all of the clients moved away from the City and dont want to deal with the hassle of getting in and out town to do business. So away they went.

Yeah, I was wondering too how they handle those giant slabs of copper. When you are up on that roof face to face, those panels are a LOT bigger than they look from the ground. Its also windy as all get-out up there. A nice gust catching one of those panels would slice a man in two.

And as Lowell points out, a great deal of debris did indeed fall to the ground in the process - mostly on the Grand Boulevard side, by the front door.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2866
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I wasn't a fan of logic, I would swear the city is paying (cheaply) people to take the building apart literally peice by peice, or is simply letting this happen to the building so it will be easier to bring down.

So, how long do you guys suspect it will be until the urban, human scavengers pick this thing down to the steel/concrete frame?

As someone said, this says volumes about the general attitude of the city and its residents. I hate to say it, but it's the truth. For this not to have been front page (or just major) news (i.e. the complete stripping of a prominent high-rise roof) leaves little guessing as to how the majority of the people in the neighborhood and city feel about it.

Hell, why stop at unoccupied buildings? Why don't the people just disassemble the whole, damn city and ship it out to Chicago? Yeah, I'm angry, and increasingly unhopeful about my birth city.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 3143
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 65.222.10.3
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does copper get that much money from scrap yards? Is it big money? These guys are risking their necks to climb to the top of an abandoned building just for copper? Cant they find a job flipping burgers or something?
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2868
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You don't have to understand their logic beyond that these people are obviously hustlers, something this city (and most inner-cities) have a lot of because of lack of decent paying jobs, other opportunities, and general hope. You better believe that stripping copper roofs isn't the only thing they are involved in. Hustler's hands are forever in different cookie jars, if you know what I mean. The only thing you need to understand about them is their insatiable desire for money, without the means to adequate means to aquire it 'legally.'
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 579
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.93.31
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, the market for scrap metals currently is worth the effort. Copper, silver and other metals are being used up in our military engagement in the middle east. Not just full metal jacket ammo, but all sorts of electronic applications. Silver, for example, has gone up several dollars an ounce since the war started. (anyone who knows about collecting coins will remember steel pennies from WWII)

My father-in-law is a part time scrapper in his retirement. Scrappers are not all evil, many collect metals in legal ways. Much is discarded in trash and takes a bit of effort to reclaim.
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 937
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 7:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well back in the 20s... it was fairly simple to make money legally. In todays world, with all the regulation and other bullshit that goes along with running a business, without significant resources, most people cannot even think about this.

It goes to show how many smart people there are out there... and how that talent is so wasted because our country cant get its shit together..
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2869
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, the cost of construction is getting higher by the month. In fact, many of the new high-rises in Las Vegas have been cancelled in large part to rising construction (material/labor) costs. Scrapping is lucrative, legal or illegal.
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Gmich99
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Username: Gmich99

Post Number: 39
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 65.29.97.102
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bet Kwame knows where the roof went.
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Commodore64
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Username: Commodore64

Post Number: 180
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 71.65.11.254
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So whats left under it? Is it wood or some other material?
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 87
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is awful... not that just the roof got stolen, but because there was few preventitive measures done to seek out the scrappers of this building. If people can get away with taking an entire roof, I can only imagine what can be done on other buildings.

The underside is aluminum if my memory serves me correctly. I toured Lee Plaza last year and have pictures of the attic. I'll try and post a link to those photos. Removal of the roof will not likely doom the structure. The interior plasterwork and just about everything non-structural is already destroyed and would have to be removed reguardless in the case of a renovation. This was because the windows were removed.

The attic floor is all concrete. I'm fairly certain there are water drains so that there will be no flooding up there. However, it wouldn't suprise me if the pipes are damaged and the water will just pour into the building below.

I'm worried that the removal of the roof will make the building less appealing developers.

It would be a horrible shame if this building was demolished. You wouldn't believe the views from that building... absolutely astonishing.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2870
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know if removing the roof makes it look any worse. It may make it a little less noticable, but to be honest, the thing looked bad (condition-wise) before the theft of the copper roof. The breaking of all of the windows had already taken this down to being a very undesirable structure. Usually, as long as a building has its windows in tact people will have some hope for it.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 580
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.69.203
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I put together a small gallery page of images from inside the roof, and a few views from the roof. The views show the Fisher, MCS and downtown.

THE LEE PLAZA

These are from January 2004, just about two years ago. You can see that somebody did try to peel some copper from the roof on the inside of the "M" that the long peaks create.

I dont remember any aluminum under the copper, just tar or tar paper. From inside the attic cavities you can see that the roof is constructed with concrete panels that the copper is connected to.

There is one shot down one of the long sides of the attic.

BTW, I looked at some images of Book Caddy roof from 2003, and I was mistaken about the copper on the roof. There is definitely some peeled off, but it looks exactly the same then as it does now. I was just looking from a new angle recently that made me think there was more missing. My bad.
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 88
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, the copper between the peaks has been gone for awhile. My bad on the confusion of the material inside the attic. Both visits I made to the building were in the afternoon to get sunset photos, so all I could see was a gray underside.

Some interior shots:
http://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/l eeplaza/

Skyline Views:
http://www.urbanplanet.org/for ums/index.php?showtopic=14901

(Message edited by wolverine on December 28, 2005)
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Neilr
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Username: Neilr

Post Number: 159
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.242.215.65
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Mauser765, for posting your photos. I think your shot of the Michigan Central Station looming up through the fog is other-worldly.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2873
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 1:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, how many floors lie above the 15th floor (last residential floor)? It looks like maybe two more. And, does the first floor have a mezzanine/balcony, or is it just a very tall floor?
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 89
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 1:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you are referring to the part with the small squre windows beneath the attic, it's a half floor that was used for mechanical stuff

Here's a pic, it's kind of bad becuase there was a lot of dust in the air.

http://www.umich.edu/~ifmuth/m echanical.jpg

Edit: I thought you were talking about the floor beneath the attic. The first floor has a small mezzanine. But elsewhere, yes, it is a tall floor.

(Message edited by wolverine on December 28, 2005)

(Message edited by wolverine on December 28, 2005)
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 1600
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.2.148.120
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 2:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would have to question those who make such statements as this:
"More evidence that the vast majority of Detroiters don't give 2 shits about anything"

What exactly have you done to make Detroit a better place?

(Besides moving your lips and fingers and sitting on your ass in front of a computer)
I wish that there was more activisim in the area around the Lee Plaza, but the truth is that this a neighborhood where most folks are more preoccupied with surviving than with a copper roof.
I also wish that the city wasn't so damn dysfunctional, and that the people at the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office could have gotten this building onto their Nuisance Abatement Auction List a few years ago.
But the truth is this: The Lee Plaza is a huge white elephant in a part of the city where there is very, very little outside investment.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 1689
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.147.82
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 5:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Damn, I knew we should have gotten a couple of gallons of WD-40 and soaked the roof before it was taken. Scavengers would have taken the outside express elevator down.... :-)
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 7965
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.228.201.179
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Mauser and Wolverine. It sure likes like more damage and theft has taken place inside the building since Mausers photos.

Can the city fine itself for neglect of a building? Just goes to show you that the city is just as bad (if not worse) as the other slum lords.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2875
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They probably should, but why would they do that?
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 582
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.54.51
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Today I saw guys up in the building stripping stuff out. They hauled it out through the wide open front door. The truck they loaded up said "masonry" on the side. While the guys were in the building, they were talking to the guy driving the truck, yelling out the 10th floor gaping window down to ground level. This was at about 1:30 pm in broad daylight.

Im thinking you could haul away every scrap of that place and nobody would give a hoot.

I agree with the sentiment that the residents of that hood have other problems occupying their minds aside from saving an abandoned building that doesnt belong to them and whose preservation benefits them not one bit.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 584
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.54.51
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

scrappers
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2884
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mauser, but that is THEIR neighborhood regardless of how many other problems they have. Should we expect the thing to be literally stripped to it's skeleton, and to have people looking to invest in that neighborhood? These residents have to quit complaining about not getting neighborhood investments if they don't even care about their neighborhoods, and I speak that as a fellow low-income person from a low-income family. Why should they expect outside investment if they are completely content with seeing a piece of their neighborhood (abandoned or not) literally stolen right in front of them? It seems as if you could scavenge and ship away near the entire damn city apart from the occupied housing and few would care. Apathy is KILLING neighborhoods, and that attitude HAS to change for anyone to have any hope for the future of the city, residents and potential residents and investors, alike.

If the complete stripping of the Lee Plaza isn't symbolic for what is going on in a lot of Detroit, I don't know what is. Ok, say we left the neighborhood residents off the hook. Where in the heck is the outcry from the organized preservation community? Where are the press releases? Where is the action by law enforcement authorities? Where is the outcry from the leaders elected to protect their citizens and their property?

Forget crack, apathy is a helluva' drug, ain't it?

(Message edited by lmichigan on December 30, 2005)
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Dsmith
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Username: Dsmith

Post Number: 80
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 68.41.202.23
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice scoop by Mauser, and a solid post by Lmichigan.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 585
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.51.178
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I dont disagree at all with Lmichichigan, but perhaps I could have written that more specifically. It would appear to me, an outsider, that those residents probably do not see the preservation of such a building as directly benefitting them. And if they rent, times that by 1000. But I am assuming, and putting words in the mouths of people I dont know here... Just conjecture on my part.

But anyway, I did see some of the scrappers. I drove circles around the block taking photos with a telephoto lens while they were there. This did not seem to bother them in the least.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2888
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, it is one thing to understand the residents, it's another to try and justify the complete lack of civic pride. Anything can be explained, not everything can be justified, and the apathy is just painful to watch. I grew up very near here in my first 5 years in Detroit, and it really hurts to come back and see the area.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 586
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Posted From: 4.229.93.176
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed. I dont try to justify their complacency - Im just remarking on it. Perhaps they complain all the time - its hard to know what exactly is going on. Certainly it looks like nobody cares - but I wasnt about to stop these fellas in their tracks and confront them. So its possible that the people who live right there are complaining to authorities, but not confronting the scrappers directly.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2892
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Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 1:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, I was advocating for your or anyone else to directly confront them. That's never a smart idea. The only point I've been trying to get at in this thread is that I know of no other city in this country when you can strip an entire copper roof from a prominent high-rise in the middle of a neighborhood, and it gets minimal press or outcry from either the presevation groups, neighborhood residents, or city government. Kwame should have been on T.V. the next day with a press release about how this is unacceptable, and would not be tolerated. It's the relative silence that disturbs me. I'd rather have fake lip service than to hear almost nothing at all.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2109
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.58.137
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 4:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is plenty of anger to go around as we helplessly watch this spectacular architectural gem get dismantled and crippled before the elements.

This is a continuing episode starting with the stolen lions and gargoyles. Actions by some on this forum led to their recovery, but their recovery did not solve the core problem of the Lee Plaza - the lack of a viable plan to save it and creatively and economically retranslate it.

So here is a far stretch what if. Imagine if Northwestern High School, across the street in its drab structure, was given the building and grants for a student rehabilitation project where students learned building trades, development skills, and managing techniques. Instead of a dangerous eyesore it could become a neighborhood pillar that the students could point to and say it was theirs. Imagine the pride and glory that would fall on the school that saved and revived a glistening Lee Plaza.

While Lee Plaza is in Detroit, it belongs to Michigan too. The State needs to step in and protect this and other architectural assets if nothing more than protecting them from thieves and the elements. Perhaps they can't save them all, but they should save the best and this is one.
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623kraw
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Username: 623kraw

Post Number: 732
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.41.224.200
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 7:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Words of wisdom from Lowell...

Here's a shot from May 27, 2005. The roof was intact. The stripping was completeted in under 6 months.

What a pathetic waste
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 591
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.69.92
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

K - heres what happened..

DPD: "we gotta witness it firsthand to take any action"

Wayne County Sheriff: "Try the State Police"

State Police: "Try the local media - like Scott Lewis or something. Thats your best bet for a non-emergency event like this".

Less than satisfying, but its exactly what I expected to hear.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 592
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.69.194
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

leep

Heres what is really freaking me out: (aside from the shocking theft of the entire roof). Less conspicous but just as damaging to the desirabilty of the structure to developers - the systematic harvesting of the terracotta details that line many of the windows. Less noticable and less characteristic than the lion heads, but almost as important.

These have been vanishing at a steady rate recently. Thats why the "masonry" sign on the white truck first grabbed my attention.

leep

leep
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2112
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Posted From: 66.167.58.137
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, I did contact the Wayne County prosecutor who was successful in recovering the terra cotta lions and gargoyles from Chicago. However I am not too optimistic that he could do anything regarding the copper roof as it would probably be melted down quickly.

Such a shame.
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Eap
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Username: Eap

Post Number: 1225
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 70.227.12.72
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FYI, when you are calling the authorities during an incident like this report it for exactly what it is. In this case it is a breaking and entering in progress. Once the officers arrive they will investigate accordingly. I have assisted a few times in these situations with arrests resulting. On the lower end of the scale the cops will make brick salvagers unload their loot. In the mean time plates are run, id's are checked and maybe a warrant uncovered for Michigan's most wanted. It is all a worthy exercise for all parties involved. I have personally been very affected by this scrap hustle in the past few years. It is a much deeper problem in need of far reaching and well placed measures in order to approach a real reduction in this crime. A legislative effort for small lot purchases and registered sellers and buyers at the buyer’s level for scrap metal is a far more appropriate initiative than any Capitol Park streetscape ideas.

I cannot emphasize enough the deep implications of these crimes. One local development is spending over $3000 per week to secure its site from breaking and enterings for the $20 or so dollars in scrap value held in the copper supply lines. Now of course this project is properly insured but builder's risk insurance isn't designed for these smallish dollar situations. Typical deductible is $1000. Typical repair is $800-1200. If you file too many claims your insurer can drop you. Once other insurers see that drop you will not get another carrier. No insurance equates to no financing. One or two of those situations in a particular corner of the City and the next project in and around that area will not be able to secure coverage. Projects quickly wither or become cumbersome due to huge premiums making the burden of carrying costs insurmountable.
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 90
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great advice Eap for what to do when this situation arrises again. I really hope anything that is taken from this site can be recovered. One can only imagine how much it will cost to replace the lost details.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 47
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.60.133.115
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a beautiful building..... so sad what this city has to go through. SOMEDAY.....
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Commodore64
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Username: Commodore64

Post Number: 182
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 71.65.11.254
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They should knock that thing down just so no more materials can be stripped out. I don't usually like to see buildings coming down, but this one should.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 593
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.24.147
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I told the Detroit authorities what was happening and descibed it accurately. No response nonetheless. The current condition of the police force is enough explaination for that. Its good that other people have had more luck stopping such events, at least its not always a futile effort.

Why wont the city at least lock the damn front door ? Does that cost too much money ? Currently the front steel door is flapping open in the wind.
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Eap
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Username: Eap

Post Number: 1226
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.212.37.45
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It certainly is a frustrating situation. Sometimes a little exageration helps get the point through the 911 dispatchers. In the past I have put locks on structures, removed overgrowth for visibility and replaced boards to help curb this type of stuff. Compared to those cases this building is a sitting duck. I don't think any measures short of a sting operation is going to help the Lee. In fact your comment about the steel door has me wondering how long it will last before it heads to the scrap yard. Probably about 30 seconds after the copper and aluminum are gone.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 9666
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So how about it Eap, wanna do a sting operation and bust some caps?
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 931
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.214.190.39
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mauser, any license plates with those pics you took? :-)

True 'nuf Eap. This building is more of a sitting duck than the ones in the CBD due to its relative isolation.

This pic from a few weeks ago shows the area immediately around Lee Plaza:
lee plaza far

This closeup shows the partially-removed status of the roof at that time:
lee plaza close

Somehow I'm less upset about this than with the shenanigans surrounding the demolition of the Madison-Lenox. Renovation of Lee Plaza seems like a hopeless cause, whereas the M-L was at least within an urban area of other tall buildings, some undergoing rehab. (Even though Lee Plaza is a nicer building.)
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 734
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was a LOT of money sitting on the roof of the LP.
I can not begin to guess how many sq ft of roof that building has, but it has to be over 5000.
If the copper was 20 gage, it weighs 1.5 lbs per sq ft. Thats $2.25 a foot! So, at least $11,000.00
According to an article:
The group will also coordinate with the recyclers who are buying copper at all-time-high rates upward of $1.50 a pound. Copper prices have risen 42 percent in the past year, mainly because of increased demand from China and India, according to statistics from Bloomberg News. China's economy has been growing at an average 9 percent a year since the late 1970s, a rate of sustained growth never before seen in a major world economy.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld /mercurynews/13492531.htm
This might be a mob job.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2113
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.58.137
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 4:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The sad part is that the cost of re-doing the roof with copper would so dwarf the $11K scrap value.

What is so special about Lee Plaza is how well it illuminates in the sun. An artzy sub point pehaps, but when the sun hits it, no matter the state of its damage, it's wow!! ... it looks magnificent even in age and decay, a sign of greatness. The green oxidized copper roof was such a part of that look, the accent that set off the brilliant orange-yellow brick which is faced on all sides. What a beauty. What a tragedy.

r1

r2
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 9668
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 5:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

True 'nuf Eap. This building is more of a sitting duck than the ones in the CBD due to its relative isolation.




Are you kidding me? Have you seen the "urban explorers" and their pictures? If they can get in, so can the scrappers.

Seriously, you have to get beyond worrying about saving shit in this city, because shit don't get saved, simple as that.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2913
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 5:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If Lee Plaza is renovated the roof will almost definitely be aluminium reclad painted green (i.e. Metropolitan Square, St. Louis' tallest).
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 9669
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 5:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keep dreamin'. That schitt is getting torn down.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 595
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.54.2
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I checked the front door, I could not see a way of securing it. It used to be brazed shut, but was cracked open at some point to show a perspective buyer around. Short of brazing I cant see how to keep it shut. It could propbably be blocked from the interior, but thats not the same as physically securing the door itself. (If somebody knows how to secure the damn door, go DO it !) I disagree with the idea that the building is impossible to protect, at least as far as stopping items or materials from being removed. If the giant hole in the west wall stays boarded up (should be rebricked) and the front door is rebrazed, nobody is dragging anything out of that place.

Sport, the majority of explorers went in the giant open window hole in the west wall. Yes, there are other ways in that I wont discuss here, but they are not ways that scrappers are going to utilize.

Lee Plaza seems to be like trying to protect your neighbors car that keeps getting robbed, but your neighbor doesnt care enough to lock the doors or roll up the windows. You cant force your "neighbor" to protect his car.
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Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2114
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.58.137
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem with Lee Plaza is that there are hardly any residential properties looking at it on three sides. Sure there is lots of traffic passing by but, other than the apartment to the east, it stands alone. It would need a surveillance camera system to effectively protect it. The will is just not there and it seems there is little to be done other than chronicle its decline. It's a cryin' shame.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6325
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.2.148.165
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Well, I told the Detroit authorities what was happening and descibed it accurately. No response nonetheless.




Mauser, my apologies for my incorrect assumptions.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 737
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I took a close look at the photos after the removal. It seems the thieves busted out the concrete on the lower portion of the roof. They did the removal from inside the attic. That must have been a lot of work busting thru the concrete, 4 to 6 inches thick.
But, it was a safe way to pull the copper without hanging on the exposed roof. There must be a lot of rubble in the attic now.
Since the upper sections of concrete do not have support at the bottom, look for them to begin shifting. Possibly coming down. That roof is very unstable now. Snow and ice will loosen the attachments points leading to catastrophic failure.
Where is the Building and Safety department now???
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 932
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.214.190.39
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Are you kidding me? Have you seen the "urban explorers" and their pictures? If they can get in, so can the scrappers.




Yeah, but scrapping draws more attention than just exploring... hauling pipes or sheets of copper out of a building is pretty noticeable. There are more people around the CBD who would see somthing like that. Also, I'm less likely to do anything if I happen to witness some kid crawl into a building to do some exploring, than if I see a guy hauling pipes out to a truck.




quote:

Seriously, you have to get beyond worrying about saving shit in this city, because shit don't get saved, simple as that.




Ok Andy, er, Supersport. Some shit gets saved, some doesn't. I am beyond worrying about Lee Plaza, though... it is probably coming down.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 738
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I became curious about how much money that copper might be worth.
I took a google map image and used a car as a reference to determine the total sq. footage.
Figuring the length of the car at 15 ft, the building is about 135ft by 60ft. Also the roof appears to be about 15 ft tall.
Without getting nuts about it, there appears to be about 7,050 sq ft on the exterior surfaces and about 3,500 on the interior (mechanical court) surface. That makes a total of 10,550. sq. feet.
Based on the assumption of $2.50 scrap value per sq. ft. that’s
$26,375 !
Not a bad haul for a few months work.
Maybe someone who has been up there would have a better estimate of the sizes. Let me know.
Lee Cars
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2915
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Supersport, maybe I should have capitalized all of "if." I seriously don't believe that it will be saved, or if it's even deserving of renovation.

About all any potential developer could do with this property is strip it all the way down and totally reconstruct it. There isn't much left to "restore."
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Besides being damaged beyond hope, there's the question of its overall design. Little was done for energy conservation during the fuel-cheap 1920s. I worked as an EE (in energy conservation) during the 1970s in Madison, WI in the Safety and Buildings division of the state agency that oversaw building codes.

The costs to properly rehab this structure to current codes and for economical energy consumption would be astronomical. Any developer knows this. That's why there are no buyers, nor will there ever be.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2919
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 1:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But, it's not different than any other historical buildings currently being restored in the city center. Developers are most certainly aware of the cost of rehabs, in general. This structure is no different. What makes this project so much less hopeful is it's location.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 2:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Common sense!

If it were such a hot commodity, buyers would be outbidding other buyers (essentially, an auction) until the fair-market price is achieved. OTOH, if the costs are prohibitive so as to preclude any profits, then it's worthless.

The city would literally have to pay some "buyer" (an appreciable subsidy?) to take it. The city cannot even pay its own current expenses without incurring extra bonding debt as it is. Therefore, the Lee Plaza will have to wait until market forces make it attractive. But, it'll decay before that happens.

It's hopeless.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 739
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 2:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I fear the only ones bidding on the PL will be the Loizeaux family.
http://www.controlled-demoliti on.com/default.asp?
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 653
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.27.96
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heres a Lee Plaza scrapper update:

The guys I witnessed and attepted to report are there almost every day. Nine to five, working away. No mystery involved, anybody who is serious about catching the looters can go there tomorrow during daylight hours, wait around behind the building for a few minutes - and you are bound to hear them up there whacking away. They are taking pipes, sinks, anything.

Hang out for a while longer, and they'll stick their heads out. Today I saw one guy up, one guy down in the van, and two guys come out the front. Every time I have gone by and took a minute to listen, I could hear, and eventually see them.

I advise caution, but encourage any of the people on this forum that are constantly calling for these peoples heads to go by and catch them red handed. If you want to play it safe, just sit in the dirt lot behind the building in your car with a cell phone. Just keep in mind that one guy is usually parked in the alley between LP and the apartments.

I usually see them about 7 or 8 floors up - in the back, or on the east side of the building. I had a friend with me the other day, we both saw two of them looking out the window at us.

Maybe somebody who has had luck in the past summoning police can get them to go up there.
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Eap
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Username: Eap

Post Number: 1231
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.148.229.45
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll take the bait and do you one better. I am going to post maps for my local nuisance makers and divert their attention from my projects up to Lee Plaza.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 654
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.27.96
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eap - no bait, no bullshit. That post is straight, and Im not at all meaning to be antagonistic. That is, if thats what you were thinking.

I dont understand exactly, "nuisance makers"..?. But if you have a method of getting the proper authorities attention do it. If thats a jab at me and Im not getting it, uh..I dunno.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2296
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I realize that this is a low priority for the police and the fine is a slap on the wrist, but can you get their plate number, and can you show up around closing time and follow them to whichever scrap yard they do business with?
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 655
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.114.218
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 11:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Uh, yeah....if you want to come WITH me.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2297
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Uh, on second thought, take SuperSport since he's packing.
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Eap
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Username: Eap

Post Number: 1232
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 70.236.164.174
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes please take Supersport.

It's my realistic and selfish feeling at this point that the LP is done for and if I can divert the similar activity I am seeing in my area to that carcass then so be it. I am not proud of that feeling but it is rooted in some deep frustration on this very subject.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6428
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.2.148.7
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 12:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mauser - Are they there 9-5 M-F or is there any weekend work. I will try to get over tomorrow if I can to at a minimum get some pictures and license plates. If not I will check it out on the weekend.

Working 30 miles into the burbs makes it a bitch to get back by 5 but I know I could be around on the weekends and at least 1-2 days next week.
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 941
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.73.58.168
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 2:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eap -- granted, Lee Plaza is pretty much a goner but it'd still be nice to catch these SOB's in the act and make some trouble for them.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 656
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.69.27
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SS - perhaps at an earlier time I miscommunicated something, but I do not now, nor have I ever carried or owned handguns. I go everywhere I go with just me and my camera equipment. Just call me dumbass. I dont know if its odds or a testament to the city not being as dangerous as people think, but I go absolutely anywhere I want at anytime. And obviously Ive never been afraid to walk straight into any abandoned building on my own either.

So yeah, I looked these looters in the face and took their photographs. While I was not packing, I assume they were.

I work in the evenings, so I dont know how long the folks are in LP. I assume during most daylight hours.


quote:

I'm too busy watching our for my own and Eap's stuff.




As well you should be. I understand your position, and eaps frustration.
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Commodore64
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Username: Commodore64

Post Number: 183
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.39.170.77
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 10:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wouldn't the local media eat this kind of thing up? Steve Wilson, Fox2 or anyone else should be covering this story. Has anyone e-mailed them about this?
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 757
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.18
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

commodore, if you read all the postings in this thread you will find that I posted about there being a story on FOX 2 several weeks ago regarding the roof
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Commodore64
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Username: Commodore64

Post Number: 184
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.39.170.77
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I seen that, but there hasn't been a story about this since..
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 863
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In a happier day. Notice the sign on top
looking East from W.Grand Blvd and Dexter
Lee Plaza
WSU

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