Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 What will make up a non-racist society? Previous Next
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 2447
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.79.81.109
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 1:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I apologize for posting this question on this part of the forum, but I feel, the greatest response will come from this column.

Reading another thread I came across the phrase "Separate but Equal.

If I remember correctly, this concept was repudiated by the Supreme Court when it was mandated by a white-controlled society. Why in the hell would a Black society try to implement again? It doesn't work.

This society is not just made up of Black and White. It is made up of of a myraid of colours and languages. All should be part of the mosaic, separate but equal, emphasizes the differences and allows no growth together.

I truly wish my great-nephew and niece, both mixed-race, by the time they reach my age look at these viewpoints as arcane and see it as most of us see Victorian society. It happened but has very little affect on day-to-day life anymore.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2878
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 2:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just out of curiosity, who is this directed towards, or from where did this come from on this forum? I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that wanted a "Separate but Equal" society implemented again.

On a different token, I've has always feared and angered me is the term "Color-blind Society." Usually, it's only those in power within the majority that call for this.

Ironically, what this practice does is actually freeze everyone at their current state or class instead of equalizing and leveling. I'd much rather we create a multi-cultural society (i.e. something similar to what Canada has). In this society cultural differences are celebrated, not swept under the rug in some attempt to sterilize culture by handing it over to those in the majority whatever part of the world you may be in.

I find it difficult to fathom why anyone good, open-minded human being would want a sterilized, homogonized culture where differences are treated as some kind of taboo or dirty little secrete, where everyone should act, or look the way those in the majority decide how they should act in look.

That's just my little tangent for the night. I really hope we can have an intelligent and candid, but respectful, discussion. I hope that's not expect too much. It's good to have continual dialogue, though realizing there are other, and just as important issues facing us all, today.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 2449
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.79.81.109
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 2:34 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Super_D's statement

quote:

'Blacks americans' have fought to make america all that it should be and were not interested in a 'betwixt and between' society__ we knew it would never happen, all we wanted was a society that did'nt make a big difference in how we live our lives, how we view each other, and how we are denied social privilege. In otherwords we never wanted intergration__ 'Seperate but equal' has always been tha' cry fo' real Black survival, but instead it's more like blacks have to be included, intergrated, well behaved and worthy of acceptance into y-t's way of life__ whites made it this way, now you have the burden to the question," Can we all just get along?".


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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2879
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 2:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a bit of what I see as truth in that with the emphasis on "bit." If integration and segregation are two extreme sides of the same spectrum, if they are truly two evils one is a decidedly better evil, IMO. I don't get those that won't be satisfied (Black, White, or otherwise) until their own EXACT view of America is implemented. That is so incedibly facist that it doesn't even make sense to refute it. I guess with these types you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. It's the same ideology that has been used by those types all the way back in history to modern day terrorists. In the end, life is both taking huge risks and stands AND a series of compromises, both personal and public. How we go about handling them is the true art in it all. This shouldn't be made to disrespect the true inequalities all people face in some way or another, but I choose to frame things in a much larger picture.

(Message edited by lmichigan on December 30, 2005)
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2257
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 172.173.187.207
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 5:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, I haven't read the entire thread so excuse me (it's late), but why the hell did you have to include that your nieces and nephews were mixed race? Who the hell cares, Jams? Since when is interracial marriage the key to ending racism? Look at freaken Brazil (and Latin America) for goodness sake. The colorism there is extreme, bizarre and terrible. We definitely do not need to model after them.

And I agree with LMich that "color-blindness" is a denial that racism and prejudice exists in society. You can't be color-blind unless you are a prejudiced man at heart. Conservatives want to feed that bull so that they can deny minorities and other disadvantaged groups access to health care, education, jobs and more. Think about it: the racists are already getting more clever in using more covert tactics to discriminate against people (i.e. tossing black-sounding names in resumes, forbiding low-income housing in wealthy neighborhoods, outlawing affirmative action and much more.) Welcome to reality, Jams. You can do us one favor: admit that racism exists.
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2258
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 172.173.187.207
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 5:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Racism exists in Canada too, although people don't like to admit it. Canada is a small nation of immigrants (including the African and West Indian population there). Most newly arrived immigrants in Canada do not carry the stigma and inferiority that African Americans had to endure for nearly 300 years on their own soil.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2880
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 5:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Racism and/or xenophobia exist nearly everywhere. My only point was that the situation in Canada concerning the mixing of cultures and immigrants is probably one of the best in the Western Hemisphere. It's not perfect, nothing is, but they are a pretty decent example of something that we have lacking here in terms of cultural and race relations. They most certainly have their problems, though. (i.e. shootings in Toronto are at an all time high, for instance)
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.33.56.156
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:07 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Until we recognize that there is only one race in God's eyes---racism exist---all over the world. There will always be racists, homophobes, and those that think their religion is the one, true religion. It is my job in life to recognize the fact that those feelings are out there and do my best as a human citizen to live my life to the best of my ability. I think of myself as a non-racist European-American but i know I am foolish to believe that everything I have heard and seen does not play an impact on my emotions. I have caught myself thinking that Asians make lousy drivers, that Latins work harder than others, that the Japanese are the most industrious people on earth, that African-Americans have the best rhythm, and I could go on and on. Those are racist ideas---I have them and I hope I am forgiven for those thoughts. But, we are fooling ourselves if we deny our own weeknesses. A better sociey will occur when more of us just fess up to those racist feelings and try to improve ourselves.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 2450
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.79.114.24
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree racism is pervasive throughout our current society, and many try to fight it and eliminate it, but what are the objectives and goals of the fight?

What would be the hallmarks of this Utopian society?
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Super_d
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Username: Super_d

Post Number: 488
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 69.245.78.75
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'Ltorivia485'__Right-on! Tell it like it t-i-is.

super d(motordetroit)
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Dove7
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Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1880
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jams,

to answer your question, here is where it starts. It starts with you. It starts with you NOT being in denial of the truth. You are in denial because you refused to see thruth within Super_d's post. I don't agree with everything that A.A. post on the forum when it comes to these typs of topics. But I have read Super_d's post and agreed with everything that he states.

It makes me think about my current job. How the whites will test you out with racial statements just to see if they can piss you off. Testing you out to see if they can get under your skin. And if one sees or thinks that another can say what he or she wants, then he or she too will try. Realistically, there isn't a one solution to this sickness that will solve the entire problem because realistically, there many who don't want to resolve nor change their ways. If be individuals or in th system.


I see it and hear on my job often. But I see it and hear it almost everyday. It doesn't have to be up front. Now a days people aren't up front. It can be a following you around the store as soon as you enter the door. It can the frown on the person's face when you enter the store they 'only' work in. The look of 'what the hell is that nigger' doing in here.

Me personally, I just play the game. I laugh at them all. I let them think what they think that they've accomplish on my job and get a kick out of them because they are predictable.


Why didn't you just direct your comment to Super_d?
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 5310
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 12:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmich,

From a logician's standpoint, you cannot eliminate 'color blind' as an option.

It was USED improperly...don't let THAT definition hold us away from the only true solution.

I understand what you say, I think, but logically there is NO other eventuality that should be our goal.

How about this one...let's open the possiblity of color blindness again in order to guarantee that NOBODY could EVER allow race to be used against anyone's quest for 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' in the future?!


I was simply bedazzled that the only realistic option for peace amongst these embattled races was illogically taken off the list of ones to consider.


Bring back Color Blindness...the right way!


I couldn't care LESS what anyone looks like...it's what comes out of their mouths and what they DO that matters.
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Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 1982
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 12:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds like what that racist bamn-crowd was advocating when they threw their temper-tantrum in Lansing a few weeks back?
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 5311
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 1:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dove7,

Reading your post makes me remember early conversations with a woman I am seeing now.

She has some lifestyle choices different from mine, and I questioned her...'tested' her, as you say...repeatedly and occasionally aggressively teasing her to see how she'd respond. I guess I tested her to see not only how deeply she felt for these choices but also to know how reactionary she would be.

How logical she approached the issues and how she'd respond when pressed.

I can only wonder if that is what you feel from your co-workers. How else they gonna know how militant and over-reactionary you might be without reading your comments here?!


I'm color blind. I do not consider race. I cannot help but notice it, but it matters NOT to me...it affects NOTHING on how I interact with each person I meet.

Ltorivia says,

quote:

And I agree with LMich that "color-blindness" is a denial that racism and prejudice exists in society. You can't be color-blind unless you are a prejudiced man at heart.





That is a totally wrong assumption. I can notice and recognize both discrimination and racism WHILE ignoring such in my direct experience with others.

Using some power-hungry politician's phrasing and policy making through a similar comment does NOT eliminate it from my behavior choices.

When I directly encounter discrimination and racism in my experience I do my best to correct it or pay close attention to the wronged party in empathy to their victimization by the evildoers.




Dove7, you are right in saying that it starts HERE with me...then HERE again when Jams and I wander about our lives...then HERE once more when groups of individuals gather...all wonderfully enjoying each other no matter what pigmentation we happen to have gotten passed down from our ancestors.

That larger growth taking over the whole IS my utopian ideal, and I'm sticking to it.

Nothing anyone says will make me a racist, and I'll call ANYONE out on racist comments every time.


Sincerely,
John
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Super_d
Member
Username: Super_d

Post Number: 489
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 69.245.78.75
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 1:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'Jams' "Separate but equal" fundamentally is a practical idea in a so-called'democratic society'__ Of course that depends entirely on economic empowerment and the development of human capital, indeed to maintain competitiveness.

It's only when vicious white supremacy dominates the process, and becomes useless by instituting racist inferiority practices.

Fo' blacks, maybe one alternative would be to re-examine the practical premise of 'separate but equal'. Fundamentally for Blacks to become self-sufficient and gain competitive advantages with whites, we must develope our own political, educational, and economical institutions__ in otherwords, fo'-us-by us.

-'We' need to psychologically let 'y-t'go__ and undertand that complete reliance on white paternalism is counterproductive to our economic survival.

-To understand that 'we' need a completely new paradigm of self-realizations and self-empowerment in a global and nationalistic stand-point.

The bottom line is, until ma'brothas' realize that our crisis is due to the historical exploitation of Blacks by white republicans, democratics, plutocrates, agendacrates, 'reaganomics', 'bushnomics', 'clintonomics' and all other strategical and ideological' philosophical inferiority stratagems, we will continue to struggle with developing race relations and self-empowerment.

And whites need to realize that america is becoming 'less-white'__ which eventually means that america will depend largely on the skills and the productivity of non-white americans__believe me 'y-t' will do everthing possible to preserve their supreme position in this country__ look no further than the historic distinctive practice of americana terrorism.


super d(motordetroit)
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Dove7
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Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1882
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 3:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon wrote:I can only wonder if that is what you feel from your co-workers. How else they gonna know how militant and over-reactionary you might be without reading your comments here?!


Gannon are you sure about this? I mean is that a question or a statement? Think about something. What I put here is just as I stated regarding my co-workers. It's called playing the game. You don't know what angle that I'm coming from on here or offline.

Never ever think that I'm militant oir a overreactor. You make the same mistake that my co-workers make by assuming that this what I am.

Your test vs the test that was and continues to be presented to me is like comparing apples to oranges. Their test is a test of their own insecurities. Think about it, why test someone out who isn't looking for nor have time for racial games or any kind of stupidity on the job? Now the only relevant comparison that I could see in your compaison would be you testing her out because of you own insecurities. ????
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5286
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 3:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think it's just Gannon and your co-workers making certain assumptions about you. You've posted in the past that the police, restaurant workers, college associates and bitches also treat you badly.
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Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon

Post Number: 5312
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 4:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL Dove7, never an assumption...just describing it from their worst fears and/or concerns. I wouldn't expect that...I was talking from a possible perspective of theirs. Sorry to be so short on words as to make you think I come from that direction...especially after some of the conversation we've had here.

As for mine, I may indeed have some insecurity around some people with strong passions that are not my own. In my particular case, I was getting involved with a Vegan member of Peta and needed to feel whether she'd be judgemental of those not on her particular path.

(I've known a good number of animal-rights activists in the past who were, let's say, less than tolerant with those who haven't made similar choices)

Didn't intend to equate that inspection with your situation from work, I was merely offering up another perspective.

Another is that people often joke about uncomfortable or unfamiliar things...it is one way humans deal with these things, no matter how wrong it can seem in many (if not most) situations.

Doesn't mean there isn't some or most of a racist core to their efforts, I just say to at least NOT assume the worst. But given your past statements about 'discerning', I shouldn't have qustioned it.

Sincerely,
John
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2189
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 4:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What will make up a non racist society?

Answer:

When those in power will finally admit that white priviledge exists and do everything in their power to ensure it's obliteration, so that everyone has an equal opportunity to all that this country offers.

When policies such as those that have been enacted in such a way as to be legally racist since it also targets a few people of the same ethnicity of the majority(Lending practices).

When education can be even across the board and one group doesn't have to suffer becuase tax dollars move away(becuase of demographic shifts).

When all groups have equal access to all aspects of American society (politically, economically, educational), to the point where there would be no need for programs and policies like Affirmative Action.

Until we as human beings finally learn that one race is not superior to the next and we can actually learn and share with each other instead of the majority exploiting, and stealing from those unlike them and profiting in the process.

Until those in power admit that these things exist and are willing to give up the priviledge that they have, then the problem of racism will never go away.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 7979
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.228.209.253
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 5:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When those in power will finally admit that white priviledge exists and do everything in their power to ensure it's obliteration, so that everyone has an equal opportunity to all that this country offers.



D_Stylin, and that comes from taking each person as they are for WHO they are and nothing more. Of course we cannot see past the colour of ones skin but we can take each HUMAN BEING for what they are worth (in essence colour-blindness).

There are many people out there with a multitude of various shades that fight racism on a dialy basis for no other gain than the gain for those who are persecuted. Yet, all I see on this forum is the talk of the "white" devil so to speak. Yes, white people have control of society, but there are many other whites trying to fight that same fight yet, yet whenever it is tried they too are pushed to the ground by the same folks they are either trying to help or by other whites who don't want to relinquish power.

People have to stop and look at who is trying to further progress and who is trying to wrestle control or keep control of the status quo. But this will never end until we as a collective society pick those up who need to be picked up and quite pointing the FUCKING FINGERS at everyone but OURSELVES and those around us!
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2191
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 5:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well GOAT you have never seen me just point fingers in one direction and not call my own out for our short comings. The biggest difference in either though is that the racism from one camp has much more influence, weight, and impact on the lives of those who are not in control. So in essence it's really not about racism but moreso the attitudes and actions becuase of racism that allow those in control to remain in control.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 7983
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.228.209.253
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 7:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

D_S I am saying people in general not you in particular, with your above post I agree 100%.
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Dove7
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Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1883
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 8:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon,

that's interesting. We both agree on some things here. Fear. Fear and insecurity is primarily presented when one tries to approach you with intimidation. Yeah, discernment can be a gift if used the right way. BUT, why the point of never questioning my discernment?

Discernment is one thing, but experience is another. They both can give you understanding of a situation. Realize that when one will try you with racial statements if be upfront or indirectly, often that is a racist person and not a mere human speaking just of of fear.


Take example...Itsjeff..Here's a poster who took or takes what I say as a joke or out of context. In this case, both..


In your case, you explained that what you meant. Meaning you did at least gave it some questioning if be or not agree. No sarcartic statement.

Itjeff, when I had addressed the experience, not to him, but the entire forum at that time, didn't questioned it, but puts up one of his fur coats. His way of mocking me. So that's one example of why you have guys like Super_d who says what he says because of statements like those...

Me personally, I can come from many angles when I speak on here. I don't tell my personal business online because personal business is well, personal. I can give my experience. Sometimes it's to enlighten, other times it's to see who is who.


I questioning everything that I hear and see. I'm always learning, dicerning etc..
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2881
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 8:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon, Color Blindness is a noble idea that can NEVER be practically applied by humans who will always find the next ridiculous trait to latch onto. Like Communism, it is good only in theory. A multi-cultural society is far more enriching, practical, and powerful. Once again, Color Blindness requires the minority (be it racial, religious, or otherwise) to forgo their culture to fit into a "norm" mandated by the majority, or else be barred from the full benefits of living in that society. That will never change regardless of the nation it's implemented in.
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Dove7
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Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1884
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 8:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Itsjeff wrote:I don't think it's just Gannon and your co-workers making certain assumptions about you. You've posted in the past that the police, restaurant workers, college associates and bitches also treat you badly.

You must of brokeup with your boyfriend or something because you ae actring like one of those bitches.

let's clear somethings up. I never have put my business about who I am involved with nor do I address any women that I have been involved with as bitches. Now to clear some of your dissillusional comments. Never been treated bad by women nor had to call one of them a bitch. Although there are plenty of bitches out here, I don't waste my time dealing with them.

College associates treating me bad? You must be smoking that stuff again. Never had that experience niether, nor would I put this online.


Resteraunt workers? I think that you have been eating at to many of those burger joints. I don't frequent resteraunts. Perhaps you should go way back and try to find those post that you claim are mine and perhaps you 'might', just might find that I have addressed others personal expereinces that I know personally.
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Dove7
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Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1885
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LMichigan,

I agree. Take Mexico as an example. The black Mexicans have been descriminated against by the Mexican government and people for years. One of the issues that have been addressed by the black Mexicans is the government not acknowledging their African past. The government wants them to be black when it comes to descrmination, but wants them to be Mexican when the blacks want to have that other part of their culture acknowledge.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2883
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So true, Dove. I have just recently began to look at Mexico's internal race relations, particularly how Mexican Blacks in that society live, and I was suprised at the blatant racism they put up with from their own government and society. I guess it's because they make up such a small part of Mexico's population.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1886
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LMichigan,

small population is a 'small' part of it. Noticed that I state small. BUT the larger part of it is racism. The Mexican (Indians) have been treated bad by the Spaniards for centuries. They are and were looked down for being Indian. This is why many Mexicans not wanting to indentify with the African roots/culture. It's that 'Lynch' theory that worked on the Mexicans too.

I remember seeing this Mexican American man on a show on PBS titled 'America'. They were showing minorites and their expereinces here. The Mexican man tells the story about his grandmother on his fathers side. His grandmother was a Spaniard from Spain. She told him that he may have Spanish in his blood, but he would never be as good or good enough.


Take that same example with the guys on my job. We have a driver who came in from out of State. Black man with a accent. The two white guys mocked him and his accent, sterotyping him as a Jamaican. They ask me what is the guy. I told them, don't ask me, ask him, he's standing right there. I decided to put them both on the spot and told the guy that they both wanted to know what he is. He told them that he is Haitin and Portageuse.

Funny, when he gave the history of himself and the roots, suddenly the guys wanted to be more of a bunch of wise assses, stating that all that they wanted to know is his background.

these same wise asses starting talking about the Mexicans and one mentioned about speaking Mexican. Speaking Mexican? Damn, all this time I've been thinking that they were speaking Spanish. Here's the killer part, they started making jokes about 'the mexicans'. One of the guys they mentioned who names is Romaon. I told them that Romaon isn't Mexican, he's El Savadorian. They replied, same difference. It's only a 20 minute boat ride..
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5288
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

let's clear somethings up. I never have put my business about who I am involved with

Let's make something equally clear: No one cares.

nor do I address any women that I have been involved with as bitches.

So it's just regular, everyday women you call "bitches." Got it.

Now to clear some of your dissillusional comments.

There's no such word as dissillusional, but go on...

Never been treated bad by women nor had to call one of them a bitch. Although there are plenty of bitches out here, I don't waste my time dealing with them.

I think I speak for bitches everywhere when I say, "Thank God."

College associates treating me bad? You must be smoking that stuff again. Never had that experience niether, nor would I put this online.

Sorry. Who was it that looked at you so funny just because you were wearing a full-length leather coat with fur trim? I realize it could be anyone, but I seem to recall you singling out the bitches.

Resteraunt workers? I think that you have been eating at to many of those burger joints.

This was a while ago, but you mentioned the Vietnamese bitch who was slow to seat you at a restaurant. Or maybe it was a Chinese bitch? Whichever.

I don't frequent resteraunts.

Perhaps because you can't find them in the phone book the way you're spelling "restaurant?" Regardless, restaurants are good and I recommend that you try one some day.

Perhaps you should go way back and try to find those post that you claim are mine and perhaps you 'might', just might find that I have addressed others personal expereinces that I know personally.

I don't want to overload Lowell's system searching for every time you call a woman a bitch. But I can't believe you're denying doing it. Hey, remember the time you called Naima a "nig?" Good times.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1887
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Itsjeff,

that's some very intelligent conversation coming from you.

Who cares? If you didn't care, then why in the hell are you wasting and overloading (Lowell's Forum) with wasteful stupid sh!t?

Yeap,


like I said, you broke up with your boyfriend and you are smoking crack.



Let's get you straight..AGAIN. Man the things that I got to do to check these B!tc@@.

Number one, I am a photographer who by choice photograph alot of women. I have never been treated badly nor have even addressed this online.

Never addressed my personal relationships online if be good or bad. And if and when a bitch comes my way, I put them in their place and get them out of my face quick. Something like I'm doing to you right now.

Ok,

long coat and college? Bad memory. Why don't you scroll up^. If you do recall the long coat was a police statement.


Vietnamese bitch? What in world are you talking about? I never had this experience at a Vietnamese resteraunts. As a matter of fact, I never ever had a bad experience with a Vietnamese or any asians here. My experience from the Asians have been a good one.


Resetraunts rauntrester. it doesn't make a difference. you can go on and on, those stupid nit picking corrections are irrelevant and it's clear enough for you to reply to them. Replying to them with more stupid and schizo statements.

Never said that i don't go to resteraunts. But what I did state is that I don't 'frequent' them. Read that. BTW, I went to a resteraunt with my Mongolian friend who took me too a Vietnamese resteraunt where she likes to eat at. the food was good and the service was too.


you can't believe that I am denying calling the women that do me bad a bitch? but you can't even recall when. get your sh!t together. Now I have referred one on here as a bitch. And she goes by the name of Jal. What's so damn funny about that is one tried to check me on calling her that, but quickly turned around and called her the exact samething. wow, talk about practicing what you preach went out of the door quick.

Yeap, I called a model a Nig. But guess what? It wasn't Naomi. talk about spelling errors. try spelling her name right. btw, the model was a detroit native on the tyra bank modeling show. looks like someone on here can't remember sh!t but those voices speaking to him in his head.
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Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2259
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 69.212.51.29
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dove7 and LMich, Mexico at one point in history used to have the second largest population of African slaves in the New World behind Brazil.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1889
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes I know, Ltrovia. As a matter of fact, the Africans down in Mexico once outnumbered the Spaniards.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2886
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I REALLY wish we had private messaging on these forums. It would really help us articulate between eachother individually without bringing a good debate to a halt. You wouldn't believe how many times I wish that option was available here.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1890
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i hear you on that. shame that some have to bring in stupid stuff to try to get thier points across.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2887
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ltorivia, still, they make up a small percentage of Mexico's population now if I remember right. In fact, a smaller percentage than there are African American's in the U.S. Also, Mexico had greater mixing of Native American, slaves, and Europeans creating alot of what many Mexican's are today. The slave population was diluted to a much greater extent than it was here.
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5289
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who cares? If you didn't care, then why in the hell are you wasting and overloading (Lowell's Forum) with wasteful stupid sh!t?

I'm sorry. I should have been more clear. No one cares about who you're dating.

Yeap, like I said, you broke up with your boyfriend and you are smoking crack.

And even in my boyfriendless, crack-induced haze, I can write a coherent sentence and spell words correctly. Maybe we can attribute your illiteracy to a lack of crack.

Let's get you straight..AGAIN.

Many have tried, mon ami.

Man the things that I got to do to check these B!tc@@. Number one, I am a photographer who by choice photograph alot of women. I have never been treated badly nor have even addressed this online.

Okay, you told us a while ago that you take pictures of women to prove to us that you aren't gay. Now you tell us that you take pictures of women to prove that you don't think of them as bitches. That makes perfect sense to me. Thank you for clearing that up. You take pictures of women, so you must really, really like them.


Never addressed my personal relationships online if be good or bad.

That's the part where I was saying that no one cares.

And if and when a bitch comes my way, I put them in their place and get them out of my face quick.

Uh, yeah. Straight men talk like that all the time.

Something like I'm doing to you right now.

I'm not clear on what you're doing to me right now, but okay.

long coat and college? Bad memory. Why don't you scroll up^. If you do recall the long coat was a police statement.

Maybe it's the crack talking, but I recall that you posted about being bothered by someone, perhaps it was the police, while you were moving into college housing simply because you were wearing a full length leather coat with fur trim. Like straight men do.

Vietnamese bitch? What in world are you talking about? I never had this experience at a Vietnamese resteraunts. As a matter of fact, I never ever had a bad experience with a Vietnamese or any asians here. My experience from the Asians have been a good one.

Apologies. Who was it that you called a bitch because she was slow to seat you at a restaurant?

Resetraunts rauntrester. it doesn't make a difference.

It doesn't make a difference to you, obviously. But to the poor souls who have to read your tortured writing, it makes a big difference.

you can go on and on, those stupid nit picking corrections are irrelevant and it's clear enough for you to reply to them. Replying to them with more stupid and schizo statements.

Oh for heaven's sake. Twice a year I like to call you out on your shit and you make it sound like I'm stalking you in a men's room.

Never said that i don't go to resteraunts. But what I did state is that I don't 'frequent' them.

::guffaw::

Read that.

Do I have to?

BTW, I went to a resteraunt with my Mongolian friend who took me too a Vietnamese resteraunt where she likes to eat at. the food was good and the service was too.

Hey, that's an awesome story! Thanks for sharing it. You might send that in to Readers Digest.

you can't believe that I am denying calling the women that do me bad a bitch?

If you deny regularly referring to women as bitches, then you're dissillusional.

but you can't even recall when.

I don't cut & paste your writing, Dove, so I can't give you a pinpoint citation as to when you do it. But you've done it a lot and, again, I can't believe you're denying it.

Now I have referred one on here as a bitch.

I didn't say you refer to Detroityes forum members as bitches. I said you refer to women as bitches.

Yeap, I called a model a Nig. But guess what? It wasn't Naomi. talk about spelling errors. try spelling her name right.
btw, the model was a detroit native on the tyra bank modeling show. looks like someone on here can't remember sh!t but those voices speaking to him in his head.


I didn't say that the woman you called "a nig" was named "Naomi." I said it was "Naima." And I was right.

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/36206/45004.html

Never, ever, ever again correct someone else's spelling, okay?
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1891
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wait a minute, I thought that you weren't going to go way back because you were going to blow up Lowell's forum.

Yeap,

i remember that comment as I had addressed. Forgot that her name was Naimi and was thinking about Naomi Campbell. Anyways, regardless..You still bring up irrelevant topics. You still have to explain the others comments. you know, the ones before you brought that one up.

I'll be waiting for those too. So far, there wasn't any denial on what I had called he woman. No lost or skin off of my back.


Why don't you take the wise advise that Lmichigan is giving and stick to the topic. You are trying to bring the topic to a halt.

But I will be waiting for the other bad experiences that you claim. But like you said, you don't care.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1892
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow,

Itsjeff what is so funny here is that I see how deep that you are into what I post on here. But you don't care. Oh let me correct this, 'we' don't care. You can't speak for yourself, so you have to put others in this because you don't have the spine to speak for yourself.

Jeff,

you haven't called me out on anything. If there's something that I did, I won't deny it. why would I? I don't know you nor anyone else on here except a two.


I had to post a picture because I had to prove that I'm not gay? now that's funny too because I didn't refer to myself as gay, you and others either said this or implied it. I did showed a picture to address that I don't have any issues with women as far as being rejected. Big difference. but what you think about me is your choice. that's not going to affect me nor change me. but it does affect you.


Thank you for complimenting me on the nice story/expereince that i had at the resteraunt. But we both know that was to correct you on where I've been and what my experiences are.

Hmmmmmmmm. stalking? did I call you this? Nope. Perhpas it's what you are feeling deep inside. I said nit picking, not stalking. Big difference.

I'm not here to make adjustments to my typos. Either you ingnore them or you reply to them. You chose to reply to them.
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5292
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think I strayed too terribly off-course when I mentioned that you called a woman a "nig" in a thread discussing your habit of calling women bitches.

Regardless, we've both made our points. I said that you frequently refer to women as bitches, and you deny it.

So I surrender. Your kung fu is superior to mine. The thread is yours as I lick my wounds and retreat into the vast crack-induced fog.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1893
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

because i bother you.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1894
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

itsjeff,

you sound like a poor looser who chose to pick a battle but wants to retreat because you can't prove a point. You bring in a irrelevant point about who I called a nig. which there was a point behind that statement. i'd advise you to re-read that old post to see if you can understand the point. but you don't and won't which proves my point that I had made earlier to gannon. the mocking statement.

I also corrected your bad memory on the coat, resteraunt that never existed, the college associates that never existed etc..so yeah go and lick your wounds.

As for me, this isn't about a victory. I don't have time to get insecure like you are online by trying to prove victory. victory was and is in your mind.
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5293
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dude, I surrendered. I declined your offer to search the forum archives to cite times you called a woman bitches. Neither will I try and track down the time you complained about being picked on by someone because you were wearing a full length leather coat with fur trim. Or the time that Skulker suggested that you were gay and, in response, you posted a picture of a woman that you took that you said proved that you weren't.

Here, let me try this:

ATTENTION FORUM: Although I alleged that Dove has often referred to women as bitches on this forum over the years, I am unwilling to cite the specific date and times that he has done so. Therefore, I am unable to refute his denials.

You should be gracious in victory, Dove.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1895
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 11:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeap,

you are predictable ItsJeff. You reply again. Indecisive. I bother you. I claim no victory online. It's not real. But if you claim failure, then this is your call and your fault. i claim neither. My post doesn't 'obligate' you to continue replying to me. But you do, because you are weak.

I remember the Skulker thing and what was said. And I also know the real reason behind that image. that was funny by itself. I got a kick out of that. I also remember Skulker calling another poster on here a bitch. As a matter of fact he is the guy that i'm referring to that tried to preach to me about calling Jal a bitch but turned around and called her one.


Face the facts ItsJeff, you can't prove something that I did correct you on, 'Dude'.

Make up your mind. The coat thing was at school or the coat thing was the cops? Can't even figure out what vietnamese lady was slow to serve me. Wow. Must have been my twin. And all of those bitches turn me down. bitches that I can't remember even having the 'pleasure' of calling them a bitch.

If you are going to continue to reply, then prove and show me something that I corrected you on. And yes keep posting, you are giving me what I want. So in a another way, a different way, I am winning. And you are whining.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2890
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:00 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another thread that started off with some very good commentary dies...again.

Another one bites the dust...again. Good job, you two. Give yourselves a hand and take a bow for destroying yet another thread. I've done it myself, but only when a thread was already gone.
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5294
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:04 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(sigh)

I've been mistaken for Ethiopian on more than one occasion. But that still don't mean shit to me. Bit deal. Hell I walked into a Ethiopian resteraunt some time back because I was curious and never had their food, this bitch played me like I was some kind of nigga that was going to rob the damn place. She didn't want the male Ethiopian guy to leave my site. Aint that a bitch.

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/6608/34045.html#POST3008 75

whining-atcha
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1896
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LMichigan,

thank you for chiming in. This was my point of the debate. It wasn't about me turning this into a war zone. As you already saw from my pervious post before Itsjeff jogged in, my post has been on topic. Most of them are. Some may not agree with them. My point was to show how another can come in and bring in irrelevant points by trying to make personal attacks. This isn't the first time.

I had addressed a topic to Karl, both of us agreed on and and didn't. Itsjeff and a few others turned that into a war zone. It just shows their immaturity that they try to accuse others of being.

Now back to the original topic.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1897
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what's interesting here itsjeff is this..what you posted here on the Ethiopian woman, was a fact. and yes I do recall that situation. Vietnamese is what threw me off.

bottomline, the entire point here as Lmichigan and I agree to degree on here. there are realities that exist. I agreed with Super_D which was my original post and point. That point was speaking from my expereinces and not something that was or is fabricated. You chose to look at it as a joke and mocked me. I don't have a problem with this. Because you aren't really making any points here.

Now if these were things that weren't facts then you'd have a valid points. So you going way back to get something isn't validating anything except your opinion. That's all that is there in this foolish debate.

I don't have to go back into time to make a point here. I have had bad expereinces. But those experiences aren't just with women. They come from men as well, as I have already addressed.

But like you said, for you this about victory and for me and the rest it was about expereinces and trying to understand those expereinces. you chose not to do this, but chose to turn this thread into a war zone.

So yes I did win the battle, but victory wasn't on my mind. if this is about victory for you, then you have already lost.



Also, the Ethiopain women is another fact that many blacks have issues with. Most of the complaints are about Nigerians. Nothing new. As for calling the women a bitch, yes I did. What now? That doesn't define my experiences with women because of the situation that I gave because each woman is different and my expereinces with women have all been different. So going back to post that still doesn't make your point of the 'costant' calling women a bitches as you claim. Although we do have them out here and will call them as I see it.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1898
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And that topic, the Ethiopian woman is a relevant and is true. Discrimination exist even in the black culture. i'd advise you to watch the movie Crash. the cast of Crash was on Oprah. And one black women confirmed my point. She has the same projection of black men that many whites who do. The stereptypes.

Quote: I had my door locks put on my doors, some black men came in to change the door locks. After they left I called for another company (white) to change my locks because I feared that they will come back with a master key and rob me.
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Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2261
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 69.212.51.29
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 1:51 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dove, you got to be kidding me. I can't say I'm from Detroit because you used to live in this city as well. There are so many black people in Detroit, I have more pressing issues (I live in an apartment so it's slightly different) to worry about than someone trying to rob my place.

Shame on you.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1899
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:08 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ltrovia,

before you let your emotions get the best of you. Re-read my post. Shame on me for what? Confiming something that another said? This isn't my assumptions. These are facts that have been confirmed often. Shame on me would be if I generalized.

I gave my experience that Itsjeff went all the way back to prove a point, which wasn't there because it was based on facts and not fiction. I gave you the samething with the lady on Oprah.

Don't take something personal that are facts. We do have issues within our black community. I didn't isolate anything here, but addressed facts.

Shame on you for jumping the gun.
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Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2262
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 69.212.51.29
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:30 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wait a second here: Dove, didn't you say that you had the locks changed twice within your own home? Or were you just playing?

I'm definitely confused now.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2894
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Go back and read it over, L. He said no such thing, though he didn't distinguish to clearly that that was a quote from something he saw.

Still, are you guys really content that such a great thread has went down the toilet, already? First it was Dove and Jeff, no it's you and Dove. There seems to be a few common denominators (certain forumers) that manage to ruin good things EVERY time.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1900
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes you are confused. re-read my post. I said that it was a black woman on oprah who was confirming her guilt of stereotyping black men. the show had the panel fom the movie from Crash on. they gave real life racial expereinces and they also reported how descrimination also exist with each culture.

like the black professor addressed, these fears and stereotypes comes from minorities falling into the games and myhts of racial stereotypes. meaning, white is safe and blacks aren't to be trusted and are lazy..i agree.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1901
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that common denomination is people jumping the gun or try not to question if something may be facts. so what they do is overreact and attack. this is why i allowed the argument to continue with jeff. to let him expose his true colors.
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Quozl
Member
Username: Quozl

Post Number: 65
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 12.109.9.154
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 2:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Morgan Freeman has it right:

The Associated Press Updated: 2:46 p.m. ET Dec. 15, 2005

NEW YORK - Morgan Freeman says the concept of a month dedicated to black history is "ridiculous."

"You're going to relegate my history to a month?" the 68-year-old actor says in an interview on CBS' "60 Minutes" to air Sunday (7 p.m. EST). "I don't want a black history month. Black history is American history."

Black History Month has roots in historian Carter G. Woodson's Negro History Week, which he designated in 1926 as the second week in February to mark the birthdays of Frederick Douglass and Abraham Lincoln.

Woodson said he hoped the week could one day be eliminated when black history would become fundamental to American history.

Freeman notes there is no "white history month," and says the only way to get rid of racism is to "stop talking about it."

The actor says he believes the labels "black" and "white" are an obstacle to beating racism.

"I am going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man," Freeman says.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 2895
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 3:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great actor, but he has his own opinion, and I my own, and I happen to nearly totally disagree with him. We've gotten quite far, but not far enough to where we have the convenience of dropping or diluting our culture. I do agree that less emphasis should be placed on race, and steadily we will be weened off of it, but it is a long and hard process, and not something you can just forgo at the drop of a hat.

It kind of goes back to the whole idea of a Color-Blind society where we essentially freeze everyone's place in society, a very dangerous idea, IMO.

You don't correct past and continuing mistakes and problems (and they HAVE to be if we are all to move on) by denying their existence or that they have happened on a routine basis in the past. You can't just change the rules in the middle of the game and expect everyone to be happy. It would be like someone winning in a card game, and that person calling for the end of the current game, or the loser giving up because he or she doesn't want to fight anymore, and grows weary.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1902
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 3:17 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As good as that sounds Quozi..The truth of the matter is...From the begining, blacks have always wanted what Morgan addressed. But blacks never got recognized for these American acheivements. This is part of the points that what this topic is about.

This point also goes back to a point that I agree with LMichigan addressed in the other like forum. To put all in the same belief category takes away from ones indentity and culture.

Yeah it would be nice if it could be like what Morgan wants..But realsitcally it's not going to happen. Why? The example that I have gave above. The example was about my co-workers and no matter how you present yourself. In this case, being professional. They still wanted to stereotype blacks, Mexicans, El-Savadorian and Haitian.


like it was said on Oprah and other shows..Racism dos exist. But now a days people are more suttle about it. Things change and adapt with the changing times.

Made me also think about how many whites came on the show and asked the question of if you are thinking the 'N' word, dos this make you racist. The answer to that question was yes. One lady asked and had admitted to her doing this. She also addressed that in her community it is more common than what people want to accept. I commend her for her honesty. Because what she said, I hear and see it often in the areas that I work in.
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Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2264
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 69.212.51.29
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 5:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry about earlier. I thought you had to be very crazy to do the door locks scenario. And yes, I saw the movie, Crash. (Great movie)

Racism is subtle, Dove, because hypocrites can get away with it by using figurative language and indirect tactics. You have to be able to read between the lines in order to understand their true intentions: keep black folks and other undesirables out of their 'hoods. Everyone knows that the insurance redlining in Detroit is illegal and racist, but the insurance companies have bought out the state government to think their guidelines are legit. Legit my a$$. This goes all the way back to the Home Loaners Act in the 1930s where the federal government had real estate planners to label predominately black neighborhoods as "red areas" or the most undesirable places for whites to live in. As black folks moved into cities in drove, urban neighborhoods became the new high-risk areas. The entire cycle is just repeating itself. It's all about making profits. That's the bottom line.
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Rasputin
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Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3389
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.195
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 11:49 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"From the Cradle to the Grave" ..... Go figure:

quote:

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

"I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group"

Peggy McIntosh

Through work to bring materials from women's studies into the rest of the curriculum, I have often noticed men's unwillingness to grant that they are overprivileged, even though they may grant that women are disadvantaged. They may say they will work to women's statues, in the society, the university, or the curriculum, but they can't or won't support the idea of lessening men's. Denials that amount to taboos surround the subject of advantages that men gain from women's disadvantages. These denials protect male privilege from being fully acknowledged, lessened, or ended.

Thinking through unacknowledged male privilege as a phenomenon, I realized that, since hierarchies in our society are interlocking, there are most likely a phenomenon, I realized that, since hierarchies in our society are interlocking, there was most likely a phenomenon of while privilege that was similarly denied and protected. As a white person, I realized I had been taught about racism as something that puts others at a disadvantage, but had been taught not to see one of its corollary aspects, white privilege, which puts me at an advantage.

I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was "meant" to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools , and blank checks.


Describing white privilege makes one newly accountable. As we in women's studies work to reveal male privilege and ask men to give up some of their power, so one who writes about having white privilege must ask, "having described it, what will I do to lessen or end it?"

After I realized the extent to which men work from a base of unacknowledged privilege, I understood that much of their oppressiveness was unconscious. Then I remembered the frequent charges from women of color that white women whom they encounter are oppressive. I began to understand why we are just seen as oppressive, even when we don't see ourselves that way. I began to count the ways in which I enjoy unearned skin privilege and have been conditioned into oblivion about its existence.

My schooling gave me no training in seeing myself as an oppressor, as an unfairly advantaged person, or as a participant in a damaged culture. I was taught to see myself as an individual whose moral state depended on her individual moral will. My schooling followed the pattern my colleague Elizabeth Minnich has pointed out: whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, normative, and average, and also ideal, so that when we work to benefit others, this is seen as work that will allow "them" to be more like "us."

Daily effects of white privilege

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

Elusive and fugitive

I repeatedly forgot each of the realizations on this list until I wrote it down. For me white privilege has turned out to be an elusive and fugitive subject. The pressure to avoid it is great, for in facing it I must give up the myth of meritocracy. If these things are true, this is not such a free country; one's life is not what one makes it; many doors open for certain people through no virtues of their own.

In unpacking this invisible knapsack of white privilege, I have listed conditions of daily experience that I once took for granted. Nor did I think of any of these perquisites as bad for the holder. I now think that we need a more finely differentiated taxonomy of privilege, for some of these varieties are only what one would want for everyone in a just society, and others give license to be ignorant, oblivious, arrogant, and destructive.

I see a pattern running through the matrix of white privilege, a patter of assumptions that were passed on to me as a white person. There was one main piece of cultural turf; it was my own turn, and I was among those who could control the turf. My skin color was an asset for any move I was educated to want to make. I could think of myself as belonging in major ways and of making social systems work for me. I could freely disparage, fear, neglect, or be oblivious to anything outside of the dominant cultural forms. Being of the main culture, I could also criticize it fairly freely.

In proportion as my racial group was being made confident, comfortable, and oblivious, other groups were likely being made unconfident, uncomfortable, and alienated. Whiteness protected me from many kinds of hostility, distress, and violence, which I was being subtly trained to visit, in turn, upon people of color.

For this reason, the word "privilege" now seems to me misleading. We usually think of privilege as being a favored state, whether earned or conferred by birth or luck. Yet some of the conditions I have described here work systematically to over empower certain groups. Such privilege simply confers dominance because of one's race or sex.


Earned strength, unearned power

I want, then, to distinguish between earned strength and unearned power conferred privilege can look like strength when it is in fact permission to escape or to dominate. But not all of the privileges on my list are inevitably damaging. Some, like the expectation that neighbors will be decent to you, or that your race will not count against you in court, should be the norm in a just society. Others, like the privilege to ignore less powerful people, distort the humanity of the holders as well as the ignored groups.

We might at least start by distinguishing between positive advantages, which we can work to spread, and negative types of advantage, which unless rejected will always reinforce our present hierarchies. For example, the feeling that one belongs within the human circle, as Native Americans say, should not be seen as privilege for a few. Ideally it is an unearned entitlement. At present, since only a few have it, it is an unearned advantage for them. This paper results from a process of coming to see that some of the power that I originally say as attendant on being a human being in the United States consisted in unearned advantage and conferred dominance.

I have met very few men who truly distressed about systemic, unearned male advantage and conferred dominance. And so one question for me and others like me is whether we will be like them, or whether we will get truly distressed, even outraged, about unearned race advantage and conferred dominance, and, if so, what we will do to lessen them. In any case, we need to do more work in identifying how they actually affect our daily lives. Many, perhaps most, of our white students in the United States think that racism doesn't affect them because they are not people of color; they do not see "whiteness" as a racial identity. In addition, since race and sex are not the only advantaging systems at work, we need similarly to examine the daily experience of having age advantage, or ethnic advantage, or physical ability, or advantage related to nationality, religion, or sexual orientation.

Difficulties and angers surrounding the task of finding parallels are many. Since racism, sexism, and heterosexism are not the same, the advantages associated with them should not be seen as the same. In addition, it is hard to disentangle aspects of unearned advantage that rest more on social class, economic class, race, religion, sex, and ethnic identity that on other factors. Still, all of the oppressions are interlocking, as the members of the Combahee River Collective pointed out in their "Black Feminist Statement" of 1977.

One factor seems clear about all of the interlocking oppressions. They take both active forms, which we can see, and embedded forms, which as a member of the dominant groups one is taught not to see. In my class and place, I did not see myself as a racist because I was taught to recognize racism only in individual acts of meanness by members of my group, never in invisible systems conferring unsought racial dominance on my group from birth.
[The majority of this Forum]

Disapproving of the system won't be enough to change them. I was taught to think that racism could end if white individuals changed their attitude. But a "white" skin in the United States opens many doors for whites whether or not we approve of the way dominance has been conferred on us. Individual acts can palliate but cannot end, these problems.

To redesign social systems we need first to acknowledge their colossal unseen dimensions. The silences and denials surrounding privilege are the key political surrounding privilege are the key political tool here. They keep the thinking about equality or equity incomplete, protecting unearned advantage and conferred dominance by making these subject taboo. Most talk by whites about equal opportunity seems to me now to be about equal opportunity to try to get into a position of dominance while denying that systems of dominance exist.

It seems to me that obliviousness about white advantage, like obliviousness about male advantage, is kept strongly inculturated in the United States so as to maintain the myth of meritocracy, the myth that democratic choice is equally available to all. Keeping most people unaware that freedom of confident action is there for just a small number of people props up those in power and serves to keep power in the hands of the same groups that have most of it already.


Although systemic change takes many decades, there are pressing questions for me and, I imagine, for some others like me if we raise our daily consciousness on the perquisites of being light-skinned. What will we do with such knowledge? As we know from watching men, it is an open question whether we will choose to use unearned advantage, and whether we will use any of our arbitrarily awarded power to try to reconstruct power systems on a broader base.

Peggy McIntosh is associate director of the Wellesley Collage Center for Research on Women. This essay is excerpted from Working Paper 189. "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming To See Correspondences through Work in Women's Studies" (1988), by Peggy McIntosh; available for $4.00 from the Wellesley College Center for Research on Women, Wellesley MA 02181 The working paper contains a longer list of privileges.

This excerpted essay is reprinted from the Winter 1990 issue of Independent School.


Black-atcha .... watching institutions maintain themselves thru organized ignorance; watching "white supremacists" stay ignorant!!; while watching apologists, apologize for even existing ..... having stated that while seeing the ball bounce around in the Europeans' court ..... Your move!! (literally)
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 753
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.230.22.99
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quozi, Freeman's comments have been been posted on another thread and were blasted away there.

As to the redlining, insurance/mortgage companies are in the business to make a profit. When you Google Earth many neighborhoods in Detroit and see the devastation, if you were the insurance company, would you charge "standard" or below-market rates?

Regarding loans, the best thing you can have is an excellent credit score. The second thing is to purchase a property that has a good chance of being there if you're not - so if you, for whatever reason, don't pay the loan, the property can be sold for at least what is owed.

Lt said: "As black folks moved into cities in drove, urban neighborhoods became the new high-risk areas."

For full disclosure, she should have said: "As certain black, white, and other folks moved into cities in droves, simultaneously many more homes burned, burglary rates soared, and loans defaulted - all at a rate far higher than national averages - so certain urban neighborhoods became the new high-risk areas.

I'm not sure I would have added "black" to the sentence like Lt did. There are many areas in the country where certain insurance/loan rates are higher than average. It all has to do with risk - not skin color. If you happen to be black and live in Novi (and have a good credit score - something insurance co's also now use as a key to your stability) you will find loan & insurance rates far lower - because of neighborhood stability, not skin color.

And yes, it is all about making profits. This is the USA, where that is normal, legal, and OK for everyone - of all skin colors.
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Rasputin
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Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3392
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.195
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl ... get a CLUE, willya?? And NO, they're not SOLD at Wal-Marts!!

Black-atcha ....
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 755
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 72.25.177.194
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ras, if you're referring to your lengthy post above, it wasn't posted when I wrote. I was addressing Lt & Quozi, not you. For a prof, you might think about getting a clue yourself.
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Dove7
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Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1905
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 3:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ltorvia,

I agree. I have had some o those experiences. Example. During my highschool days, one of my younger brothers and I were on our way home from work. We were both caddys that worked at a Country Club.

We decided to walk home that day. We both decided to walk into a candy store. On our way out we were stopped by a white cop. The cop asked us young men, 'who were we and where were we coming fom'. We told him that we just getting off from work at the C.C. up the street. We should the officer the shirt that we were wearing including the country club caps. Both the shirt and caps had the logos.

The officers kept of asking crazy questions, wanting to know where did we live etc. After all of the od questions, he asked us did we want a ride. We told him yeah..Don't know why we said yeah at the time. The officer put the both of us in the back of the squad car. Nice of him wasn't it? Drove only to the borderline of the area that he worked in, somewhere that we could've have walked.


That same route that we walked. Me and friend walked it. This time we decided to take a shortcut through one of the subdivisions. We were approached by a bunch of young white kids. The kids began lecturing us, telling us that we were trespassing through the neighbohood. We both looked at them and asked them, wtf are you taking about. This isn't a private neighborhood.


The argument went on and on from these young white kids. The funny part was one, if we had been white, this issue wouldn't came up at all. The 2nd one, when I told them that we lived in a subdivision further up but not apart of the area, suddenly she's ok now.

In these writings here, you can see Ras's 'white' priviledges postings. It do exist.


Another expereince. On that golf course that we use to work on. There were two white girls name Ann and Pat. One day Ann and I were talking abd flirting around. Out of out of the blue she felt on my ass. I was kind of surprised. Wasn't expecting this. But weeks later she gets into an argument with my brother and calls him a Nigger. He slaps the taste out of her mouth. Now she doesn't want to talk to none of us.

Yeap white priv. You have the luxury of feeling on a black man's ass (something that I would've got fired for.) and can call you a Nigger. Only in a America.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 2453
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.137.106.143
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 8:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I started this post with great hesitation and many of my fears were realized in this thread.

I was not asking for what is, I asked for what could be.

Interestingly enough, the post that answered (and created more questions) my core questtion of what might be was Rasputin's (Thank you, sir).

That list regarding White privilege may prove to be the starting point of what a non-racist society might be like when all races might feel an equality with each other.

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