  Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1520 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.192 |
In the latest issue of Hour Detroit magazine. On the issue of OC he says that OC cut the umbilical cord to Detroit years ago.There are over 60,000 businesses in OC. He went on to say that he would love Detroit to be a vibrant city again and that, was it like Chicago or San Francisco he would not have to "explain" the city instead of showing it off. | ||
Huggybear Member Username: Huggybear Post Number: 119 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 69.218.156.6 |
No one outside of Oakland County (or, I guess Hour Detroit's readers) would ever take a statement like that seriously. When Oakland County has its own art museum, opera, sports team (named after Oakland County, not Detroit), its own water system, and some identity to people outside of Michigan as something other than some suburbs of Detroit, then it will have cut the cord. But that's not the case, and I'm sure LBP is ticked that he'll never live to see that day. LBP's embarrassment about having to "explain" Detroit makes me think of the parents whose houseguests stumble on the mentally-deficient child living in a cage in the kitchen. Somebody put the kid in there. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 452 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 151.205.108.122 |
He should explain why he started his career by aligning himself with racist psychopaths who feared sending their children to school with black kids. Has that bald drunken piece of crap done that yet? *ptui* | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 316 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.221.92.110 |
"LBP's embarrassment about having to "explain" Detroit makes me think of the parents whose houseguests stumble on the mentally-deficient child living in a cage in the kitchen. Somebody put the kid in there." The mentally deficient child (Detroit?) locked itself in the cage and every time the parent (Money bags suburbs)keeps trying to tell it how to get out, shows it, by example, how to successfully get out, gives it money for the education to get out, and the crazy kid just goes ptui! Brooks is the best! Course he's no Kwame.... | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1521 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.247 |
Thats unfair oldredforette.I would not allow my very small children to be bussed several miles to school either.It was a bad idea and it had to be known that people would resist. | ||
Rockcity2windycity Member Username: Rockcity2windycity Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.40.139.237 |
L. Brooks is the best County Exec in the nation. What other suburb in the nation continues to prosper while the major city it surrounds continues to decay? Brooks is always ahead of the curve. He was quick to recognize the decline of manufacturing jobs and brought in white collar automotive jobs (automation alley, centerpointe). Now he sees the decline of those jobs and he's pushing Nanotechnology. He keeps taxes reasonable and spends wisely. I'm from Pontiac. When Pontiac tried to annex land from Bloomfield Hills he sided with Pontiac because he knew we needed a larger business tax base. We eventually received the land. His influence helped us. Oakland County taxes from our liquor, hotels, and rental cars, go to pay off Cobo debt. So we won't get a big windfall from the SuperBowl. Detroit and Kwame should quit being so hostile towards L. He truly has the best interest of region in mind. The more successful Detroit is, the more successful Oakland County will be. But Oakland County has already proved it can be successful without Detroit. (Message edited by rockcity2windycity on January 15, 2006) | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1523 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.247 |
Get your body armor on and prepare for the onslaught Rocky....... | ||
Rockcity2windycity Member Username: Rockcity2windycity Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.40.139.237 |
i already know. Detroit vs Suburbs is just like an abortion thread | ||
Gildas Member Username: Gildas Post Number: 339 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.73.52.139 |
Rocky, As someone who lives in Detroit, I agree with basically everything you've said. Detroit and us as Detroiters are often our oun worst enemies. I hope the whole region improves but Detroit is a case study on what not to do. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 291 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.11.158.84 |
Most of the hotels rooms in the region are in OC and vast the majority of that money stays in OC.
Yeah well that works boths ways. If LBP really had the best interest of the region in mind he wouldn't fight tooth and nail for new freeways and against mass transit. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3016 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Oakland County is what it is today almost exclusively because of White Flight from Detroit. Patterson gets FAR too much credit. Hell, you could have had a chimp in charge of Oakland County during the first major surge of flight, and it would have still boomed. It was inevitable with little having to do with leadership. Why do so many refuse to see the DIRECT correlation between Detroit's decline and the suburbs rise? It's not some mistake, or even mostly by leadership, but by consequence. Is it a mistake that Detroit's metropolitan population hasn't really grown that much since the 70's? No. It shows exactly how this "growth" is mostly internal relocation/migration. And, this doesn't just go for Detroit. Knowing that outward migration accounted for little of the growth, do people continue to ignore the fact that in 20 years, the City of Livonia grew from 17,000 residents in 1950 and surged to 107,000 residents in 1970 retaining it's status of one of the least racially diverse cities in the country even to this day? And some of you are seriously going to argue that that was mostly because of surbuban leadership? Talk about delusional. (Message edited by lmichigan on January 14, 2006) | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1524 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.247 |
Some would think you were delusional Lmich. My question to you would be if OC only prospered because of Detroits downfall then how do you explain the vibrancy of Chicago and its suburbs? | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 376 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.10.63.140 |
Citylover, look out. its this time of night when the crime spree really begins in AA. Take cover. Thought youd like a head-up  | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 556 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.109.36 |
I agree with lmich... In essence, the suburbs have raped Detroit. | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 231 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 4.229.75.155 |
The city and suburbs are like a divorced couple that spends all their time bickering over money and custody issues. Personally, I find it hard to sympathize with either side. Oakland County is like the arrogant, rich ex-husband while Detroit is the bitter, impoverished ex-wife. If only they could kiss and make up and get together again like Eminem and Kim! | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1525 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.123 |
"In essence the suburbs have raped" Detroit......huh? So Detroit has nothing to do with how things are today? | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 994 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
In some regards, nothing could have stoped the migration out... The surge in population (about 495,000 in 1920 to nearly 1.5 Million in 1940) created in industry in this area that is dependent on explosive growth.... that has pushed the limits on development. The only difference is the more affulent whites were the only ones that were able to afford to keep up. Did anyone read the rest of the artical?? THe one on COBO? He also talks about the new convention center in Novi that cost 75million$... and contains 225,000 sqft. He states the he will not support an expanded COBO that will cost 650Million for the same amount of square footage. I think this is actually a resonable assessment... as he also feels that the entirety should be privatly funded... to which I also agree... OTHER than that... he needs to quit acting like Detroit isnt providing it for ALL of its resources and recognition... | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4640 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.31.87 |
I just look at it this way- people love to fault L. Brooks for being so pro-Oakland County. they want him to bend over backwards at every juncture to make decisions that benefit Detroit. you know what? that isn't his job. he was elected by the people of Oakland County to make the decisions that are best for Oakland County. and, by looking at the unprecedented growth and prosperity that seems to be occuring in the OC over his tenure, it seems he's done a pretty damn good job. granted, i think he could be more regionally minded, and could shut his damn mouth a little bit more, and perhaps choose to use a designated driver on occasion. but to expect him to make an effort to do what's best for Detroit at what could perhaps be at the expense of his own jurisdiction is pretty unreasonable to assume or expect. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3019 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
It can be expected that Patterson bears the brunt of the negative criticism expressed from Detroit's side when all negative criticism towards Detroit is directed at its leader, as well. So, let Patterson says what he feels he needs to say to continue to get re-elected. Detroit-bashing does good in the suburbs, and suburb-bashing does good in Detroit. It's sad that regardless of who the leader is, the leader of either of these places has to whore themselves out to the lowest possible bidder. The area simply sustains itself off of negative, unhelpful criticism, if no one has noticed yet. There isn't much left to be sustained off of otherwise. God forbid anyone on either side actually admits accountability for anything. With all of that said, why should Detroit bend-over backwards for Oakland County, especially after the quintessential bend-over-backwards Dennis Archer offered the olive branch to the OC over and over and over again, only to get the 'friendly' "F&ck Off" from Patterson over and over and over again? It seems to me that one side has been trying harder than the other for quite a few years now, only to get scraps in return. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1526 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.123 |
You should read the interview Lmich.In fact LBP does not bash Detroit or its leaders(Kwame).He simply states that he is looking out for the people that elected him. What many of you forget or never knew was that LBP was born raised and educated in the city, lived there much longer than most of you and knows more about the city than most of you. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 9760 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.37.236 |
Leaving out the juicy stuff about L Brooks are we CL? Typical suburban ann arbor schitt. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1527 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.123 |
Sport you are so full of shit.What juicy stuff that he drinks? Hell he sound like your kinda guy. You are a variation of the classic ugly american which I am sure you know nothing of but there you are. As for Detroit LBP has forgotten more than you know. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 9763 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.246.37.236 |
Nah, I'm talking about the racist shit involving school buses back in the day. Or don't people talk about that? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1528 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.123 |
What do you know about that? I bet knowing you in the limited way I do on this forum that you would have sided with the anti-bussing contingent. Or would you have allowed your elementary ages student aged 7-11 to be bussed several miles to school? This means you child has to board a bus around 6:30a to be to school by 8a and then another bus ride arriving home around 5-530p_ does that sound like something any reasonable parent would allow a child that young to do?....When there are schools within walking distance? LBP was the lawyer representing the Mother Irene Mcabe who I believe sued to stop the bussing.It was a tough situation.But she (Mcabe) was certainly entitled to sue and she was entitled to representation.To dismiss it as racist shit is to be(no offense intended) ignorant of history. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 843 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
'ol LBP was the attorney representing N.A.G and Irene McCabe.  Interesting they chose to stop at Denny's  And another stallworth of Civil Rights. 'ol Orvill Hubbard  WSU (Message edited by Psip on January 15, 2006) | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1530 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.123 |
Guilt by association huh psip.......and you have the nerve to call others prejudice? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3021 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
CL, just because Patterson doesn't bash Detroit in this particular interview does not grant him immunity from all of the crap he's said of the city before. And, regardless of what he has said, good or bad, his action speak louder than words. He thoroughly enjoys that Detroit has been bled to near death, and that he can call the shots on many regional issues. The man is a master politician, who has very little interest in regionalism. His regionalism only goes insofar as to leech off of Detroit's amenities while trying to offer the city as little possible political support as possible. In his eyes, Oakland County is (and should stay) the dominate municipality in a larger area in which he's benefitted greatly from the near total relocation of wealth from the central city to his county. The only thing impressive about Patterson is his innate sense of politics. His only claim to fame (or infamy) is helping to accelarate the near totaly relocation of the wealth of Detroit to his county. One would fool themselves to believe that the majority of Oakland County's wealth is self-created, or that the bulk of it came from anywhere but disgruntled, fear-obssessed expatriates (former Detroiters). Detroit be damned; they were leaving and going to take their wealth with them never to look back. And from the other side, suburbs be damned. We are going to make this OUR opposite everything those former Detroiter's stood for. It was a sick, self-fulfilling prophecy started by hysterical, fleeing Detroiter's (current day suburbanites) and continued by hysterical, stuck Detroiters (current day Detroiter's). | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 844 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
Not nerve, just showing the facts. I don't call anybody anything. People tend to change over time. You know that CL. (Message edited by Psip on January 15, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3022 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Citylover, not guilt by association, the man was a direct accomplice. He chose his affiliation; and for many of us, he chose the wrong side of the fence (opposite Civil Rights). | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 596 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.73.52.22 |
Of course, what kills me is the fact that after these same anti-bussing folks moved to the suburbs (with a few exceptions, of course) their kids ended up taking the bus to school anyway. The new subdivisions they moved to were often times so far removed from the school building, there was no way to let a elementary school kid walk. Move yet another generation up and out and we have 'Soccer Moms' driving their kids to what should have been neighborhood pick-up games. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 467 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.212.169.194 |
Eric, I was just thinking the same thing. Kids dont even walk to the neighborhood schools that are 2 blocks away... they are driven. But I think anyone today with analytical skills knows that the anti-bussing contingent were/are racists. I think we should still try it. Its a State education, right? So, whats the difference? Except for the local millages, that I believe should be illegal for a State education (the money should go to the State education fund). | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 616 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.222.11.226 |
Hmmm....those are very good points Eric and East D. It really makes one wonder about the Irene McCabe ordeal a lot more. I will have to read a bit more about it to understand or misunderstand. I know that I can remember back in the 5th grade we received a letter stating that I was going to be bussed to Koskiusko Elementary and I would have to actually walk past my current school to catch the schoolbus. the year was 1976... I believe | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 597 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.73.52.22 |
Mornin', E_d, You're damn right the anti-bussing contingent was fundamentally racist. To deny it would be to deny one's own soul! I totally agree with your statement about trying bussing again, but could you imagine the fallout? Ohio would become the next Oakland County! I can see it now: some S.O.B. from Michigan would ride the wave to Ohio, get elected governor by pandering to the transplants (no bussing!), then sit around and piss on us for allowing Michigan to "deteriorate"! As far as L. Brooks goes, all I gotta say is that growing up, I bet he wanted to be Mayor of Detroit. Unfortunately for him, he wasn't skilled/connected enough to become a power player in the city as it grew more Black. Can't expect to get voted into office in a majority Black city (early 70s) when you're fighting bussing, can you?! It's obvious the "city" he once cared for no longer exists. Did he think by opposing bussing, he would halt white flight, thus preserving his "community"? Or was he wrapping the flag around himself and purely arguing "choice"? This whole period in history clearly demonstates that real leaders take people where they otherwise wouldn't go, by whatever means they have, to build a better future. When Brooks' side lost the bussing battle, the community merely followed him in retreat and rebuilt the status quo (though architecturally inferior!) right across Eight Mile. Coleman led, by God. Brooks shepherded. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 422 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 64.148.228.13 |
It's all the same political Blah Blah... LBP is only concerned for the OC. That's fine and personally, I don't want him bending over backwards for Detroit... I don't think anyone here has asked for that. What I want is a region that works together, because the reality of today is, Wayne, Macomb and OC need eachother to survive and in our present economy... LBP's selfish political game will not work anymore. By his comment, "OC cut the ambilical cord to Detroit long ago", implies regional working together is still far away. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 318 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.221.92.110 |
"With all of that said, why should Detroit bend-over backwards for Oakland County, especially after the quintessential bend-over-backwards. Dennis Archer offered the olive branch to the OC over and over and over again, only to get the 'friendly' "F&ck Off" from Patterson over and over and over again? It seems to me that one side has been trying harder than the other for quite a few years now, only to get scraps in return." Let's see, Detroit gets money and regional cooperation from the OC when Archer works with Brooks and you call it the big F-off? Here's why arogant Detroit politicians need to bend over to work with OC, the State of Michigan, the Feds and businesses that could bring jobs: Because its their job! Its their job to build a model that will attract business and investment and new residents. A job that they have repeatedly failed to do. Part of that failure is viewpoints of LMichigan that espouse "screw off suburbanite its our right to have these things and the reason that we don't have them is because you have ripped us off by running your city/county better than us" and when most businesses hear that crap, (or potential residents) they decide that they will go somewhere a little more friendly to a city or area that is focused on improving itself instead of blaming [others for their own f-ups. As long as the LMichigans are the voice of Detroit, it will rot. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1531 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.157 |
The points about kid being bussed anyway are interesting, well intentioned, but specious. The city in question was Pontiac; a suburb.So it would not be possible to be bussed to the suburbs in that case. I don't deny racists got involved.The Klan or members were convicted of bombing Pontiac school busses.And I am sure other opportunists got involved as well..........Orville Hubbard.But I am mature enough to see when oppotunists are used to further a cause..........Kwame/Farakhan( I like him). However the point you all completely ignore is the impact this would have had on very small children.Parents quite simply did not want there children spending upward of 9-10 hrs a day away from home riding busses and travelling to schools far away from their own neighborhood schools. Bussing was a failed expirement.It did not work.And the trend since then has been for parents in inner cities to work and demand that their neighborhood schools be improved. As for LBP as I said he was representing a group that was entitled to representation. I still have not read an answer from anyone as to why for example Chicagos suburbs are doing well as is the city. | ||
Pjazz Member Username: Pjazz Post Number: 10 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.212.37.107 |
Wow I didn't know LMichigan was the voice of Detroit. I think most of the things he stated about Oakland county are pretty much fact. To me what Brooks said in that artical was just plain mean spirited. Whats even sadder is a lot oc residents probably beleive his BS. | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 131 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.212.231.231 |
REASONS WHY CHICAGO AND ITS SUBURBS ARE DOING WELL Chicago is much more cosmopolitan than little Detroit. They have a greater number of anciliary businesses, have more than two universities (Univ of Chicago, DePaul University, Loyola University, Chicago State, University of Illinois Chicago, Columbia College, Roosevelt University,Northwestern Medical Campus...), a well developed water front, are a transportation hub for the midwest, has a wonderful mass transit system, and also has a built environment that has historically always been much more dense than Detroit (Multi story apartments and flats as opposed to single family frame houses) There are more reasons, these are just a few. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 810 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Chicago and the Greater Chicago area are doing well because they were never as dependent on a single industry as Detroit was on the auto industry. But not everything is shiny brite there. Chicago has its rough and decaying neighborhoods, too. | ||
Atl_runner Member Username: Atl_runner Post Number: 1778 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.209.118.72 |
I can't believe anyone would ever support bussing. Forced integration that although necessary on other levels, essentially used children as experiments when the parents were the problem in the first place. Anyone who thinks that bussing was a good idea is delusional beyond the ordinary. Take YOUR child out of the school you intended for them to attend, and move them to a school to force integration. This NEVER would have worked in Detroit. Smallville USA.. maybe, Large cities. Never. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 557 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.109.36 |
In the end, OC is its own worst enemy. They catered to the some of the racist baby boomer generation in the City of Detroit at the time. They left, went to the OC. OC really does not have a cultural infrastructure or anything of real "city" significance. There is no regional mass transit. No real education or universisty experiance. The new kids graduating and yearning for a city experiance have no reason to stay in the metro region. They flock to Chi-town, NYC, San Fran, Atlanta, New York, Philly, and others. Some are even going out WEST were the suburbs and sprawl are worse. But thats were the jobs are. Metro Detroit is not a interesting or cool place to be. Who would want to spend their 20s and 30s here? The region is getting smaller, we are having a hard time attracting new businesses or corporations to move down here, the people are boring racist seperates or hate anything associated with Detroit because Detroit has a black population. Detroiters do not want anything to do with the rest of the region for about the same thing. This region is going to get much worse. Its all doom and gloom from my point of view. The only thing that this region has going for it is the Downtown Detroit revival. Hopefully that will attract more of people and businesses. Its our only shot at reviving not only Detroit, but the region itself. Whenever you have a mayor that has to say "say nice things about Detroit, love detroit, etc..." your doomed. | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 132 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.212.231.231 |
amen brother | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2181 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.58.137 |
There are two confused things running through this assessment of L. Brooks. One is bussing; the other is what LBP did with it. One could be opposed to bussing, a very clumsy and counter-productive to race-relations move, ~and~ be opposed to how LBP and others exploited it. LBP's activies had nothing to do with some scheme to get get properous businesses and people to move to OC from Detroit. It was about getting him [and now keeping] him in the commissioners seat. From that success has grown years of codespeak assaults on the CofD - raw meat for a small but critical segment of his electorate. The days of him and Coleman were miserable, our version of Arafat and Sharon. Instead of taking opportunities to develop metropolitan union he has chose thrive on divisiveness. This hurts the entire region because it severely damages our metropolitan image and hinders cooperation. He personally damages OC image with his codepseak, bombast, DUI history and more. He has become an insufferable shrill-voiced scold telling others what to do from his suburban throne. [Sound familiar?] Little progress in healing will take place until he is gone. The latter is now possible. The 2004 election where Kerry carried OC and where four Republican OC commision seats were flipped has energized the opposition. Previously they conceded the commissionerc prosecutor, and sherrif seats. Now they consider all offices in play. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1533 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.155 |
However Lowell LBP represents the the faction of the party that rejects the religious infiltration i.e. what reasonable people would consider moderate. This forum and its participants for the most part are incapable of discussing OC and LBP w/o personal vendettas getting in the way. The evidence is that he keeps getting elected and probably will as long as he runs. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 423 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 64.148.228.13 |
WTF, CL? I never get your logic! Yea, people on here have a love/hate relationship with LBP. I think noone has bashed LBP at all. Infact, they have given him credit for being a good politician. Some believe he has gotten to his position by exploiting racist issues. Could be? Who the F*ck cares! He's good at what he does. I don't like it, because it's selfish for the OC and LBP and will do nothing to move this region forward. NOTHING. I am in no way saying Detroit or the other Co. Execs aren't part of the problem, but time and time again, LBP is unwilling to do anything regional unless everyone is kissing is feet. f*ck that! The only thing that will save this entire region is NOT a strong OC, but regional cooperation. Everyone is at fault and I will never praise LBP for doing a good job, because he is part of the problem. Sorry. it's reality. I think Mike is on to something, above... | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1407 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.212.228.68 |
Irish mafia, Chicago and its suburbs succeed because 45% of the white population still lives in the city and city government is still dominated by white politicians, especially the mayor. The white suburbanites of Chicago love the city because when they go there they still can go places where the majority of the people they see are white. I was in Chicago this past fall and my wife and I were walking along Michigan Avenue heading towards Water Tower Place. Along the walk we saw very few minorities. The majority of folks walking and shopping were white people. Now, when I visit my relatives on the south side of Chicago, I see mostly black people walking and shopping along the streets. Where are all the white people? They're in their "comfort zones" which are several areas of Chicago where they are the majority(north side and downtown, especially). Now, when you look at Detroit you have the exact opposite of Chicago. The city's population is predominately black. The city's politicians and heads of government are predominately black. As a result there aren't a lot of "comfort zones" in Detroit for white people to feel comfortable, except Joe Louis Arena during the Red Wings games. Whites who live in Detroit have a different attitude than suburban whites. Those who live here don't have the same fears that many white suburbanites have, if any at all. They're comfortable living, working, and socializing with blacks. They realize that crime is all over and not limited to Detroit. They simply have a different mind-set than whites who live in the suburbs who chose to bash Detroit at every opportunity. When I compare Detroit and Chicago I see two similar places. Detroit is the entire south side of Chicago and the suburbs of Detroit are just the "comfort zones" of Chicago. Yes Chicago has mass transit and has diversified industries, but it's a big northern city with big city problems just like Detroit. Lmichigan was not off the mark when he said that Detroit was raped by many of those who now live in the suburbs. I wouldn't use the word rape, but Detroit was definitely "drained" of its resources by those who left the city. Consider the economics of Detroit through 1967(year of the riots). The majority of businesses in the city were owned by whites. Many of these businesses were in the few predominately black neighborhoods here in Detroit. Many of these businesses left after the riots. Now, if blacks didn't own these businesses from the beginning(like they did along Hastings Street), then how were these businesses going to be replaced? Blacks did not have the resources to replace these businesses. Often times small business owners were denied loans due to racial discrimination by the banks. Also, those blacks who did have jobs worked for someone else and didn't make a whole lot to even save to start a business. As a result, many neighborhoods in Detroit were left without necessary businesses. So, when LBP talks about how great OC is and how terrible Detroit is, he's forgetting the history of this region and how racism and discrimination on the part of many who moved to OC played a big part in how things are today. Blacks aren't completely innocent here, but had LBP and his OC peeps stayed here and tried to work with blacks in Detroit( remember: forced bussing was a way to diversify the schools so that students weren't in predominately white or predominately black schools), the region would be a much better place than it is now. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 996 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
What needs to happen, is basically a "China Syndrome" type equation in the city. Black Detroiters need to start creating businesses that are vital to the economy of SE Michigan... and use them to draw wealth from the suburbs back into the city... I think that is the only way a recovery will happen... since nothing else is feasable in the current climate in the region. | ||
Mw2gs Member Username: Mw2gs Post Number: 137 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 69.216.104.79 |
Sheeeit.....and I thought Mississippi was racially divided. That state has nothing on Michigan | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 224 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.43.81.191 |
"Eric, I was just thinking the same thing. Kids dont even walk to the neighborhood schools that are 2 blocks away... they are driven." I think that you are neglecting to mention the safety concerns that exist today that didn't exist 30 years ago. Would you let your 8-year old daughter walk to school unaccompanied, even for a few blocks? It seems like everyday there is a story in the Free Press about some creep who exposes himself to kids on the street, or some child predator trying to lure children into his car while they walk to school. Case in point, two instances of strange men approaching children in Canton while on their way to school this past week has put the community on alert: http://news.yahoo.com/s/wdiv/2 0060113/lo_wdiv/3189145 I don't care where you live, Detroit or Birmingham, these creeps are everywhere and when you drive your kid to school then you know for a fact that they will make it to their class safe and sound. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2280 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.104.187 |
Chicago (Census 2000) Population: 2,896,000 White 42% Black 37% Hispanic 26% Asian 4% | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2281 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 129.105.104.187 |
In order for Detroit to rebound: 1. High Literacy Rate (folks need to know how to read and write if they want high-paying jobs) 2. Combination of townhouses, apartments, high-rises but the majority of neighborhoods will still be single-occupany homes with commercial businesses near the suburban fringes (I know some of you prefer Chicago style of urban planning, but let's keep what makes Detroit and that is housing. Make the central area of Detroit urban, but the outer parts predominately housing) Tear down the old, asbestos-type housing and build Grosse Pointe type homes) 3. JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS (high-paying AND low-paying; not predominately low-paying!!!) 4. Schools with the same amenities as suburban schools 5. Retail (NOT stripmalls; that includes activities for children too) | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3189 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.230.16.162 |
Retail (NOT stripmalls; that includes activities for children too) I disagree. As much as people hate strip malls on this, forum, they do serve a purpose. How could it hurt Detroit to have a few more? Black Detroiters need to start creating businesses that are vital to the economy I agree with this but it is a hard thing to do, especially for African Americans. Securing the proper monies for a business is difficult regardless of color, but being black doesn’t help. Does racism still play a factor in lending today? Whites who live in Detroit have a different attitude than suburban whites That tends to be true. A lot of the negative views of Detroit are derived simply from ignorant and misinformed minds. A mindset is developed and handed down throughout the generations. One has to actually experience something rather than read about it or hear about it. Everyone talks about Detroit’s grand cultural institutions and how they remain in Detroit and not Oakland County. Take a look at the people who are in charge of these institutions. Most of them are white. Most of them live in affluent areas such as GP and Bloomfield. How much control and influence does the Detroit politicians have over these? Not as much as in other major cities. People talk about the “cultural infrastructure” in Detroit. Isnt some of that “cultural infrastructure" funded by private dollars from OC?. When the white majority pulled everything from Detroit they realized that they couldn’t just rip up the DIA and move it or take apart the Opera house and rebuild it they figured it would be more convenient to leave it in Detroit, yet still remain in control of it. The water system, cultural institutions, financial district were all things that the whites couldn’t take with them, so they simply tightened their grips on whatever they held and weathered it out from the mid 70’s on. You see all these new skyscrapers and office complexes in OC. Had white flight not happened, Detroit’s skyline and would be totally different. Lots of people never realize this. OC’s modern progress shows the “what could have happened” scenario had everything remained in Detroit. | ||
Rockcity2windycity Member Username: Rockcity2windycity Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.40.139.237 |
I'm a new chicago area resident, hence the name. Royce hit the nail on the head. I commute every three months. The comparison between the Michigan suburbs and white Chicagoans comfort zones was exactly right. I live in Dupage County, it's more conservative than Cook County but I never hear the residents bash the city of Chicago and vice versa. Alot of residents wish they could afford to live on the northside or downtown. Another big factor is Daley, the mayor of Chicago, he's the most powerful man in the state, possibly in the midwest region. Chicago has over 50 (district elected) aldermans (council members) yet they still have a strong mayor form of government. He made some tough decisions when he decided to tear down the cabrini green projects and move the residents to the south suburbs, and install cameras in south side neighborhoods. Not suprisingly Jesse Jackson didn't say a word nor did Obama. If Daley (D) had been LBP (R) the racism accusations would have been nonstop. LBP does care about the region. If he didn't care he would have been Govenor or Senator by now but he chooses to stay and try to better the region | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 848 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
LBP did have an unsucessful run at Governor and Congressman back in the '80s. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.229.141.125 |
Oakland University is still in OC last time I looked. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 558 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.40.139.9 |
Would you call Oakland University the same education or university experiance as WSU? WSU College of Pharmacy WSU Law School WSU Medicine School Too tired to keep listing stuff. Everytime I am in the OC and I see all of these skyscrappers built acres apart, I keep imagining if they were in Downtown Detroit. Yes those are ugly towers, but they would have filled up the city nicely. Blacks in this region do need to rise, it is their moment to shine. However, there are too many parameters holding down the average black family in Detroit that a family in the OC does not face. White privlige? It exists, I am not white and I admit that it has worked for me. | ||
Philbert Member Username: Philbert Post Number: 201 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.72.143.202 |
Just to clear this up. Daley did not ship any black people to the south suburbs or any suburbs when the all the housing projects were torn down. The vast vast majority of the former public housing residents have stayed in the city and the few that did leave the city did so on their own choice. The assertion that Chicago is run by white people is incorrect. The Chicago City Council is 44% white, 40% black and 16% Hispanic. They do follow whatever Daley says though, that assertion was right. Much of Chicago and much of Chicago's suburbs are not prospering. Chicago (Census 2000) Population: 2,896,000 White 42% Black 37% Hispanic 26% ==109% Chicago is actually only about 1/3 white. The Northside if it is majority white is probably like 51% white at most. The White population of Chicago is moslty the young and yuppies. The stereotypical white working class family is just about all gone in Chicago except for maybe a few neighborhoods on the fringes of the city in the Far Northwest and far Southwest sides. Michigan Ave is a lot of suburbanites, tourists, and city residents. (Message edited by Philbert on January 15, 2006) | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 997 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
"Blacks in this region do need to rise, it is their moment to shine. However, there are too many parameters holding down the average black family in Detroit that a family in the OC does not face." COME ON! Yes I will be the FIRST person to admit that blacks have a hard sell to anyone... I could only imagine if I was black, living in Detroit, and trying to sell flooring jobs in the suburbs would be nearly impossible... I even noticed a vast increase in business by advertising a 248 number instead of a 586 one... But you know what?? would you rather be poor and sucking the government and white man's dick while your at it? I mean... as bullshit as it is, I would hire a recently fired white GM employee, get rid of the 313 phone number, and then do the jobs myself, perhaps changing the attitude of suburbanites one at a time by doing a good job. They can talk shit about it all the way to the bank....right? Im sick of the excuses... Yes I am aware that MANY are VERY valid... but why does that excuse Blacks for not striving tooth and nail for something better? Im 19... I started my own business a year ago... you think that I was/am not discriminated against in just about ever facet of my business??? How would you like having the person selling you on a 10,000$ flooring job look like he is entering his second year in college. The Bank refused me credit based on my age... but i worked around it (on eggshells). If there is a WILL, there is a WAY.. and I will take that to the grave... LBP needs to quit bitching and start lending a helping hand to the city. Instead of stomping it into the ground for OCs benefit, he can do alot more to Improve the region. PERIOD... Yes he is a VERY shrewed businessman... but as a part of the Metro region, it IS his responsibility to do more... If he thinks Detroit sucks... he needs to realize that your only as strong as your weakest link... instead of pretending like Detroit doesnt exist. A better Detroit would mean a better OC | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 232 Registered: 03-2004 Posted From: 4.229.57.4 |
My mom and I discussed the bussing issue the other day. She said her main reason for being against bussing was that our family had only one reliable automobile at the time and she worried about what would have happened if my sister or I missed the bus, got off at the wrong stop, or got sick at school and needed someone to come pick us up. My older cousin had recently attended a school in Rochester and accidentally got off the bus at the wrong stop on her first day at that school. She was only in the 1st or 2nd grade at the time and my aunt went into a state of sheer panic when she went to meet my cousin at the bus stop that day and she didn't get off. My cousin was found wandering around near some apartment complex that looked similar to the one she lived in. But my mom never forgot that incident and was always against bussing because of that. And yes, the fact that the bussing would have involved Detroit didn't make her feel any more at ease. She was afraid that what happened to my cousin in Rochester would happen to me or my sister in some bad section of Detroit. | ||
Shave Member Username: Shave Post Number: 993 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 172.161.236.224 |
"I still have not read an answer from anyone as to why for example Chicagos suburbs are doing well as is the city." When "white flight" accelerated in Chicago, the White residents did not pilferage the core businesses from Chicago proper. Rather, the suburbanites brought in their own businesses. In a nutshell: Detroit: ESTABLISHED businesses lost to the suburbs Chicago: NEW businesses ESTABLISHED in the suburbs | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3024 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Most Chicago/Detroit comparisons are apples to oranges. I don't know why people see fit to continue to try and push them. The two are different cities, and have always been very different from their very foundings and how they developed. I think Detroit actually has much closer twins of itself outside of the Midwest. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2282 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.131 |
That is why, LMichigan, that if I was an urban planner, I would still advertise single-family occupany homes because that is what makes Detroit. The inner-core can be high-rises, townhouses and apartments, but the outer fringes will be mostly houses. We cannot build 1920s-style homes anymore; build suburban type (without the ridiculous gigantic yards) homes with sidewalks, lightposts and parks and people will move back into Detroit. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3025 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
People aren't going to come back to Detroit because of suburban-style housing. They are going to comeback because of it being an alternative to the suburbs. Why would you try to recreate the suburbs in the city? Why would anyone move to these areas when they could simply move to a suburb with less taxes and more amenities? Detroit is going going to be reborn becase it offers a different style of living. But, that is neither here nor there, and I have no idea how we even got on this subject. Really, who better to do the suburbs than the suburbs, and the city the city? Detroit has the area to redevelop and develop anew all sorts of unique housing options. (Message edited by lmichigan on January 15, 2006) | ||
Philbert Member Username: Philbert Post Number: 202 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.7.68 |
"When "white flight" accelerated in Chicago, the White residents did not pilferage the core businesses from Chicago proper. Rather, the suburbanites brought in their own businesses." Shave, Chicago was on its hands and knees as white controlled businesses and residents, the money, left the city. Through the late 80's Chicago was rapidly falling apart. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 618 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.215.242.182 |
The situation is so complicated. Everything posted above has varying elements of truth. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 320 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.221.92.110 |
The same crap keeps spewing out... Forget Black-White...(its an excuse) Forget that the suburbs exist at all!...(another excuse) What will Detroit as a city do to survive? On its own? On its own. Does it have the ability? If not, what does it need to do? All it has to do is model itself after other "successful" cities. That doesn't help those in the blame game, but it is the only way to move forward. If you need further help here, we can discuss the benefits of: Lower taxes Reduced Buracracy (sp)and associated costs Privatization Focus on education of children (vs. teachers unions demands) Partnerships with private organizations to run those things that govt. does not run well A Corporate Executive (Mayor) that understands his job as an ambassador (as Brooks does so well in OC) A City Council without a rap sheet | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 472 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.212.169.194 |
Warriorfan, Its not safe to walk to school BECAUSE everyone is driving their kids. Starts out with 1, then its 2, 4, 8.... most... almost all... So, now if your kid walks to school they are walking alone. No safety patrol, no other kids, etc. Slippery slope... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3028 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Detroit is not the only one that needs to clean-up its act, and that is something the entire metro area is going to have to realize if the whole area is going to heal. Metro Detroit is delusional if it thinks that everything is perfect outside of Detroit. What affects one is, and will continue to, affect the other. Neither exists in a vacuum. Detroit has A LOT of work to do, but that doesn't excuse the suburbs role in the health of the entire region. If the suburbs think they are functioning as well as they could with a declined Detroit, they are fooling themselves. They have just as much to gain from a healthy Detroit as Detroit does. I'll give everyone that there is not much the suburbs can do directly to positively effect the city. But, the little they can do is not being done. What the counties could do is to make regionalism higher priority, and it currently isn't on the front burner unfortunately. What I see is a Detroit that is greatly improve from just a decade ago in many respects, but a continued apathy from the surrounding areas barring a few in the business community that has recognized much of the good change in the city. Until I see the surrounding areas making more of a social and political investment in the city, than I have no reason to believe that Detroit's slow comeback is ever going to accelerate, or be taken to the next level. In terms of regionalism, I see one side holding out it's hand, and the other side making half-@assed attempts to stick out and grab that hand. Just my opinion, of course. | ||
Shave Member Username: Shave Post Number: 994 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 172.129.236.191 |
Gosh Lmichigan, you are slamming the points left and right tonight. Of particular interest to me is this statment you made: "...His regionalism only goes insofar as to leech off of Detroit's amenities while trying to offer the city as little possible political support as possible. In his eyes, Oakland County is (and should stay) the dominate municipality in a larger area in which he's benefitted greatly from the near total relocation of wealth from the central city to his county." Great point. How can anyone in their right mind stand for "leadership" such as this? There is nothing to defend. The man is a parasite that continues to suck the blood out of the SE Michigan region. To outsiders that are fond of Detroit, it has been reduced to nothing more than a novelty. Most of us can all remember the "good old days" of living there and/or visiting family and friends (in my case, visiting family/friends who no longer live in the city). However, because of unprogressive mindsets which you pointed out Lm, many could never see themselves reducing their quality of life in order to live in such a divided and malfunctioning region (SE Michigan). What a shame. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 226 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.43.81.191 |
L Brooks Patterson is a white Kwame Kilpatrick, or you could say Kwame is a black L Brooks Patterson. Both are racially divisive, both make no efforts to advance regionalism, both take pots shots at the other's base (city at suburbs, suburbs at city), both have an "us versus them" mentality, both want what the other has, they're similar in almost every way except for the fact that they are on opposite sides of the fence so to speak. I guess you could argue that Detroit has more of an excuse to be bitter and divisive it's been on the losing end of this tug-of-war, but I don't see how you can hate one man (L Brooks or Kwame) and not the other unless you are a hypocrite or a racist. They're cut from the same cloth of selfish politics. (Message edited by warriorfan on January 16, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3030 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
A dislike of one doesn't necessarily mean the like of the other. I totally agree with you. Kwame is also a master politician. The ONLY way to win an election in the city OR the suburbs is to play on fears and stereotypes, and Kwame and Patterson know how to do it like few else. I still think Patterson is much more like Coleman Young, though. He is a holdover from that time that should have been taken out of power LONG ago. He is part of the old guard that is UNABLE to change his heart and mind about the city. IMO, he is MORE of an impediment to the healing of the region than Kwame could ever can be. Kilpatrick is from another generation, and has routinely reached out to the suburbs if even to play in public on the concerns of his citizens to keep his popularity. Patterson, on the other hand is always the the one being reached to but rarely ever reaching towards Detroit, AND he plays on the fears, concerns, and often times outright hysteria of his constituants to keep him popular. One is decidedly more of a roadblock to peace and regionalism than the other. Kilpatrick is routinely tried to make it look as if he's anti-suburb, when that can't be further from the truth at a closer look. He realizes how much his city has lost to the suburbs, and has positioned himself time and time again to build bridges where needed for the health of his city. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1535 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.41 |
Lmich you are so wrong on so many things here but I am just too damn tired to refute what you say now. However you can not argue with the evidence and regardless of anyones prejudices including yours oc continues to thrive and is realistically the most attractive area of metro Detroit. And LBP continues to be elected so to those that matter he is doing fine. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3032 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I actually think I'm being rather fair, though I'm definitely biased. While my opinion is clear throughout my post here, I really don't see where I'm "wrong on so many things here." I'm looking forward to your response when you're not "too damned tired," though. Sure, Oakland County continues to thrive as best it can. That's not even in question. What's in question is where all of Oakland County's wealth came from? IMO, a vast majority of it didn't come from outside of the area, rather originally straight from Detroit itself. Oakland County seems to think that it owes little to no credit to Detroit, when the fact is that most of Oakland County's wealth was stripped DIRECTLY from Detroit proper. Oakland County residents can certainly be proud of their "successful" (economically, socially is a whole other ballgame). They simply need to recognize where it came from, and give credit where credit is due. They (the majority of the residents) seem to think they somehow built their entire county from nothing, and thus they owe Detroit nothing (their hand in regionalism, credit, or anything). Until Oakland County accepts that they do owe Detroit (and the entire region) their hand in regionalism they will continue on their current path, which, while not imminently gloomy is definitely heading towards something darker rather than bright (economically, socially...) So, what happens when there is nothing left from which to suck from Detroit? It's already becoming quite visible that as Detroit has little else to be shed and to be bled, that Oakland County's growth has slowed considerably. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1408 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.212.228.68 |
Regionalism in Metro Detroit is a catch-22. Everybody says the region needs it but no one is willing to give up what they have and share it with the other. Besides, Oakland County acts as if it doesn't need Detroit at all to survive. Detroit, on the other hand acts as if it wants to work with the suburbs, but when the suburbs say that they want a say in matters such as a say in the Water Department, Detroit says, "No deal." LBJ and Kilpatrick are only the personification of this catch-22. Each claims that they want cooperation, but neither of them is willing to give up something for it. In addition, LBJ knows that he has a better hand to play with than Kilpatrick so he doesn't want to offer up anything until after Kilpatrick does. The issue at hand is: what can each give to the other without pissing off their constituents? When I think about this scenario, the fighting between Israel and the Palestinians comes to mind. Oakland County is Israel and Detroit represents the Palestians. Despite decades of bloodshed and tension, neither group is willing to compromise for peace. Clearly there are no easy answers to solving the conflict between Detroit and Oakland County, and I know my ideas would be too radical for most people to handle so I won't even include them here. Perhaps the small movement of young suburbanites moving into the city will somehow be the catalyst that brings OC and Detroit together. Don't ask me how, but as long as old farts like LBJ are around and young farts like Kilpatrick, who constantly seeks advice from other old farts LBJ's age, nothing is going to improve in the Metro Detroit area. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 3645 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 207.74.111.43 |
L.B. Patterson, Mayor of New Detroit problably would say that Kwame Kilpatrick doesn't care about White people. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 3646 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 207.74.111.43 |
If Detroit goes under recievership and suburban control it would be a miracle for the white folks especially for L.B. Patterson. But a modern day nightmare for Black folks. As their communities slowly destroyed and gentrified into suburbanesque setting made for the noveau riche and hip cool white kids who think that suburbs is for the black-folks and old people. | ||
Neilr Member Username: Neilr Post Number: 172 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.242.215.65 |
Royce, frequently, after reading your posts, my thought is; "Yea, that makes good sense." Your postings from yesterday and this morning on this thread add, as usual, much insight and common sense to the discussion. Actually, it's not just what you say, it's the way you include, rather than exclude, others into your views of the city. Your posts quite often seem to build bridges, rather than barriers, between people.
I, for one, am looking forward to your sharing your radical ideas with us. | ||
Huggybear Member Username: Huggybear Post Number: 120 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 192.217.12.254 |
I don't doubt that LBP has worked in the short-term interests of Oakland County (like making "growth" your only metric). The problem is that short-term thinking leads to problems - like the fiscal collapse of some southern Oakland County communities. You can't assign him the blame for starting this (both he and Coleman came onto the scene in media res) - only perpetuating it well past the point where it made any sense. The fact that 20-30s are voting with their feet and leaving (yes) Oakland County is the most stinging indictment of LBP's perpetuating a program that involves spreading a finite number of resources over an always larger area. The effect of this program was to create a metropolitan area where few wish to live (hmm... Oakland County real estate contraction?). By that measure, LBP's promotion of sprawl and suburbanization (over and above what was already happening) is a failure. Every time I hear a 20-30 year old from Birmingham ask, "why can't Detroit be like Chicago?" I usually point out that had suburbanization actually tracked population growth, it would be. Instead, we have destroyed the concept of urban living and made everything more expensive for everyone in the region by abandoning economies of scale that cities provide. Detroit has had a hand in this too, but having been here from 1977 to date, I can't honestly say that any statment (or policy) coming out of city government in the last 30 years - no matter how offensive - even remotely compares in impact to the withdrawal of huge amounts of capital over the past 50 years. I think in the end, it's naive (or disingenuous) for people to say that Detroit can simply pull itself up by the bootstraps, because (a) It's not easy to recover from a capital outflow like that, regardless of any other factor; (b) We live in a contracting industrial economy (at least for unionized states), and it is unrealistic to assume that we can "just get some factory" or something, when Oakland County is struggling to keep what it has, to say nothing of getting more; (c) There is a big question about how much capital is available to be invested in the region - meaning that Detroit's regeneration will likely come at some other community's expense; (d) Changing the tax structure has no guarantee of attracting new businesses and will work immediately to the detriment of city services; and (e) It is not easy to recover from a large-scale removal of the tax base in a city that is predominantly residential property. In any community, business carries the weight of residential (why Royal Oak is foundering right now). In fact, given what has happened in this city, Detroit is actually making remarkable progress. Ultimately, though, the election of people like Kilpatrick (right or wrong on his own merits) gives LBP something to fight against. It takes two to tango, and in the absence of someone to villify at the seat of Detroit government, people like LBP would have far less traction. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1165 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Even though this thread rehashes a lot of previous threads, I think there has been some interesting discussion. I'd like to offer a few thoughts on an array of issues that have been raised. On the topic of this thread, Patterson has been entrusted to lead Oakland County, and this, I don't think can be argued, is what he should be doing. He was not elected to bring the City of Detroit back to its former glory. Patterson, however, is premature to take credit for his county's supposed "success". Oakland County has only thrived because of a displacement and relocation of wealth from Detroit over the past 60 years. In addition, state and federal subsidies, such as the construction of I-75 and I-696, have added to this "growth". Realistically, Oakland County can only be expected to thrive as long as it still has open (green) parcels of developable land. Once OC is completely built-out, it will inevitably begin to decline. Evidence of this is already beginning in the border suburbs like Southfield and Ferndale. Resources are simply spread too thinly throughout the region. I agree that the entire Southeast Michigan region is unsuccessful in retaining young college graduates. Part of this is because even those young adults who grew up in Oakland County can't afford to live there. After all, how many 22 year-olds can afford $300,000 for a starter McMansion? Citylover, I don't think you can look at the West Side and South Side of Chicago, and then claim that suburban development hasn't contributed to the decline of the inner city. These areas consist of a majority of the land area of that city. The same factors that have done a number on Detroit have been at work in Chicago for years. The only real difference is that Chicago's extensive commuter rail system has allowed access to jobs in the city for those who live in the suburbs. Since many jobs remain in the city, this means the executives and CEOs of these companies have great incentive to remain living in the city, as they do in downtown and the North Side (there tends to be a positive correlation between location of the workplace and home of the CEO). The old industrial neighborhoods to the south and west have been hollowed out in the same way that Detroit was gutted. White leadership vs. Black leadership is a crock. Leaders aren't inherently better or more successful if they are white, nor are they worse off because they are black. I can think of one particular improving city that not only has a black mayor, but a 60% black population, and a council with 6 of 13 members who are black. Conversely, Jane Campbell, the now-former white mayor of Cleveland, was one of the worst big-city mayors I've seen in recent memory. Regarding paying for Cobo: Oakland County *should* help pay for Cobo, because they certainly benefit from it. After all, are we to believe that none of the conventioneers at Cobo ever spend a night in an Oakland County hotel room, or eat at a restaurant in Oakland County? That's all I have for now. Comment or refute as appropriate. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1409 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 70.230.228.179 |
Thanks for the kind words, Neilr. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2185 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.18.32 |
Dan, I agree that in general Detroit's suburbs have grown to the detriment of the city, and that the city's decline fueled the suburbs' growth. There's something more to Oakland County's growth though than just Detroit's decline. After all, Western Wayne and Macomb counties were present for Detroit's decline yet their growth hasn't been comparable to that of Oakland over the last couple decades. So the Detroit/Oakland dynamic isn't a complete explanation, just part of it. You also mentioned that young adults leave in part because they can't afford to live in the county in which they grew up (your tongue-in-cheek 22 y/o unable to afford a $300K McMansion scanario). Yet we're also told that young adults are leaving for more vibrant cities like SF, NY, Chicago, DC and Boston. If they can't afford a house in SE MI they surely can't afford a place in those other cities with average prices double or triple ours. Realistically, there's plenty of affordable housing in SE MI including Oakland County. Starter homes in Madison Heights, Hazel Park, Southfield and Oak Park are available for less than $150K. Same for numerous non-inner ring suburbs. In fact, one factor favorable to SE MI's long-term economic future IMO will be our relatively affordable housing compared to the inflated housing prices in most other major metros. And while you may have read about school closings and city budget cutbacks in these inner-ring suburbs, they're not dying. Real estate prices are rising in the inner-ring suburbs that I'm familiar with. Ferndale is seeing new loft development downtown, Oak Park housing is in demand by a diverse group of buyers including blacks, Jews and Chaldeans, and Hazel Park is seeing spillover effects from the home price run-up in Royal Oak and Ferndale. Or so it seems to me. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1166 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Track, you make good points, a few of which I anticipated. Briefly: 1. Oakland has seen more success than Macomb or Western Wayne simply because on average, its residents are better educated and have higher incomes. Compared to other parts of the region, there wasn't as much heavy industrial development, which kept property values higher. 2. Detroit doesn't have nearly the rental options as the cities you mentioned. While many young people cannot afford to buy a home in more expensive regions, there are plenty of apartments available to rent. As previously discussed, the Detroit region consists mostly of single-family homes. Suburban areas, in particular newer ones, tend to focus zoning on high-end single-family homes, purposefully excluding housing for lower and middle-income people (read: recent college graduates). 3. Real estate prices rise for reasons other than sheer demand, low interest rates among them. I know of dying suburbs in other metropolitan areas where real estate prices have risen. A better measure is not whether prices are rising, but are they keeping up with the overall regional (or national) average. What's the job and income growth like in comparison to other areas? While some areas in Detroit's inner ring suburbs are gentrifying (Royal Oak, parts of Ferndale), it wasn't before they started to decay several decades ago as newer suburbs were built. Again, even the suburbs that are gentrifying are the ones in Oakland County, where the jobs and money have been relocated. I think this is mostly because 1) young people out of college need an affordable place to live close to work and 2) the City of Detroit, while it has lower housing costs, can't compete for these younger people after you factor in taxes, insurance, and perceived safety. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 559 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 66.227.165.194 |
Didn't most major cities at one time or another annexx suburbs. And isnt sort of the reason why Detroit is still only 139 sq miles while other places are 300-600 sq miles? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1168 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
True, but places like Boston, which has less than half the area of Detroit, annexed suburbs too. At that time, the thinking was that if the suburban villages became part of the city, they would receive city services. I'm not sure how annexation is relevant to relations between Detroit and Oakland County. Can you elaborate for our benefit? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1536 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.117 |
The reason or a big reason people leave the Detroit area is Detroit.That will offend some of you but those that want a "big city" experience know upon visiting cities such as Chi, NY, Bos etc that those are real functioning cities.OC is the attraction of the area it is what might draw or keep people here. To get back to my original point (although I enjoy all the posts) I suggest that those of you interested read the latest issue of Hour Detroit.The points LBP makes are not unrealistic or mean spirited or disrespectful of Detroit. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8051 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.48.208.50 |
CL, they are just mad that they didn't get an IKEA. Didnt you know you can't speak some truths about Detroit? | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 639 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.222.11.226 |
I think that once they see that Detroit is striving on its own, the initiative to comeback will then be taken. One thin that the city really needs to do is really attract new people, new business, new industry to the area. The city planners need to implement a stategy as such to attract them. 1. Most people are attracted to neighborhoods with winding streets an dead ends(knots). Take the herman gardens site for instance. I have seen the plans for this development. With a little tweakin it would be great. The perimeter of the site should be retail, apartments and business. while the core should be the winding streets with a walkable park and a school. The community would benefit more if it were a wireless community. 2. The most recent technological advances need to be studied and tested right here in Detroit. with the problems with fuel consumption on the rise, we could be a center for the hydrogen fuel projects if we could get Wayne state more involved. I think that WSU is on the right track as being a leader in education in Michigan and the country. Programs really need to be implemented into our own schools to encourage our children to get a higher education and then come back to the city. I have a lot of other personal thoughts on this issue. While I believe that regional harmony would always be beneficial to all involve it is time for the city of Detroit to take initiative and rise to its tru calling. This is a good city and i believe in it and its return to regional prominance. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3033 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Danindc, EXCELLENT and fair synopsis of this subject, and way more level-headed than my rants yesterday, I must admit. CL, you are really bombing, here. After looking at the careful layouts recently posted here your posts just seem like a total distraction. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Metro Detroit will have at least two more bad years in the manufacturing and employment areas. So say the economic forecasters and security analysts who follow and report on the automotive sector. They don't forecast further foreward than two years. I remember hearing the same forecasts for several years now - one or two more bad years. Unfortunately, these reports were accurate then. So I expect that the next two years will be bad news and quite probably another two or more years after them... Patterson keeps insisting that he won't pursue any investment in the automotive industry in OC. He says that sector is already too heavily invested, and he knows the direction those investments are heading. So he instead looks for higher tech firms to stay or relocate here, so that he can stem the brain drain in OC. If he's not successful in attracting firms, OC's high per-capita personal income will surely fall. Then the plight of the city of Detroit will roost in his localities, as it is already clearly happening in southern Macomb County. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1538 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.117 |
Distraction from what Lmich?........your obvious anti LBP take on things? Statements like OC stripped Detroit of all its wealth and the suburbs raped Detroit by you et,al effectively imo discredit anything you say because it is clear you have a pre-conceived idea not based on anything other than your own limited knowledge of things. I prefer to keep things simple.And the simple truth is that LBP has done the job his contituents have asked him to do.The other simple truth is that his opinion on Detroit is based on a knowledge of Detroit ,OC and the whole area which drwarfs yours or mine. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 560 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 66.227.165.194 |
The only attraction that the OC has is shopping. Plain and simple, anything other than that they cannot hold anything against Detroit. Oh yeah, forgot about the zoo... It may have been nice if early in the planning of the Metro Region when all of these white people moved to what was practically farm land, were annexxed by the city of Detroit. Allowing Detroit to share its resources, maintain its tax base, and compete with other metro-regions that did the same. It would be too hard to annex now, but I would imagine that in the 60s and 70s it may have been a lot easier. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 620 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.209.156.44 |
Can't we all just get along? I'm going to meet Brooks Patterson next month. I wonder what he will be like in person. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3036 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Mike, you are totally wrong. Oakland County has much more than retail if we're talking the economy of the region. It is home to multiple corporate headquarters, auto-related businesses, and so on. Oakland County is an economic powerhouse (though wanning, IMO), and that is not in doubt. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.229.90.44 |
http://www.cranbrook.edu/ | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 561 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 66.227.165.194 |
Okay... two attractions. of course i am exagerating, they also have second city now, and they still have the silverdome. lmich, i know about the financial impact, i was talking more entertainment | ||
Huggybear Member Username: Huggybear Post Number: 122 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 192.217.12.254 |
What's your basis for claiming that LBP knowledge of Detroit "dwarfs" anyone else's? He's been out of the game for quite some time (30+ years). Of course, the same thing could be said of forum members who now live elsewhere. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 871 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
I've read this complete thread, some very thoughtful posts. A couple of observations from someone who no longer lives in Detroit: 1. This past holiday season, residents of the Chicago & New York suburbs flocked to their downtown areas repeatedly for Marshall Field/Macy/etc beautiful windows & decked out emporiums in which to spend their some/all of their money. Detroit was once greater than either of these, and had the potential to stay that way - or at least equal them. Detroit's Macy's/Marshall Field shopping area is in a landfill. 2. The residents, and outsiders of NY/Chicago have, at various times, fled to the burbs for various reasons. Yet downtown has thrived. Yes, there was money there, but IMHO there was/is no money like auto money, mostly now far flung into the burbs and elsewhere. 3. Chicago/NY have developed/maintained/improved massive public transportation in/out of both cities, used by workers/shoppers/residents alike. Detroit's beautiful train station is in ruins, transportation is busses only (and the local moneypit people mover) 4. Chicago/NY have beautiful, old, historic, expensive, FILLED hotels downtown. Detroit had 'em but? 5. Both NY & Chicago, but esp NY, are huge ethnic melting pots, with plenty of crime - but for some reason people flock there and feel safe. Not in Detroit - it appears many folks in the burbs don't feel safe in Detroit so stay in the burbs to shop/work/eat. 6. Yesterday (MLK Day) we heard Ray Nagin, mayor of New Orleans, call for rebuilding a more "chocolate" NE. He also said Katrina hit NE because "God is angry", something better discussed on non-Detroit issues under the "Pat Robertson" thread. If LBP called for "more vanilla OC" would there be "discussion"? And/or, is Detroit's goal to build a "chocolate" city (paying attention to what is working/not working in NY/Chicago) or ???? I offer no solution since I don't live in the D. I would comment only that this morning, all the airwaves are buzzing about Nagin's chocolate remark, and I don't think it is motivating folks to head for NE. As I read this thread there is plenty of fingerpointing and discussion on the B/W issue standing over the rubble, so to speak - both in Detroit & New Orleans. If you feel you need to lambast me for sharing honest thoughts on this thread, please save it for honest effort for the great City of Detroit, once the crown jewel of cities in the USA & world - and maybe someday, once again. | ||
Shave Member Username: Shave Post Number: 996 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Great points, Karl. I cringed when I heard the statements by "Mayor" Nagin. How embarassing. How insulting to the intelligence of Blacks. How divisive. Talk about "leadership" at its finest. You should not be lambasted for making such observations. I am glad that you brought this up. I have visited NO before. One thing for sure, whether the city is rebuilt or not, I have no desire to ever go there again. This is coming from a Black woman who is thoroughlly embarassed to have "Mayor" Nagin as a member of the Black community. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1540 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.168 |
Huggybear my basis for saying what I did is the evidence.You may not like LBP but you have zero credibility if you say naive things like he is out of the game.....hell to be blunt he is a big part of the game. He has been part of the political climate and scene in the metro area for over 30 yrs.So really you got it backwards. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 424 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 84.156.25.137 |
funny... all I see and hear is, "blah blah blah blah..." Yawn. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3037 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Why do people CONTINUE to try and compare Detroit to the likes of NYC and Chicago? The two were built as CENTERS of their respective regions. They developed differently because of that. Detroit is (and always was) a regional hub or node. Sure, Hudson's was huge and posted some huge numbers, but it was an unsustainable fluke. Detroit isn't, nor ever was, Chicago or NYC, and it doesn't help to keep comparing all of them. | ||
Huggybear Member Username: Huggybear Post Number: 123 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.79.96.11 |
He has not lived in Detroit for 30 years, which is what that post said. The question was what made you think that he had "on the ground knowledge" of Detroit. I don't have anything backwards. I would expect a similar but opposite question if the issue was Kwame Kilpatrick's knowledge of Oakland County. To this very specific question, I get "evidence" - which tells me basically nothing. Here are some examples of answers that would tell me you're doing something than cheerleading: "He meets with Kwame Kilpatrick weekly." "He lives in Detroit 3 months of the year." "He has an army of spies walking the streets." "He goes to a Baptist church on Eight Mile." "He has a bug in KK's office." "I am his mistress." "I am L. Brooks Patterson." Or something specific that would tell me why you assume he knows so much about the city. I don't know he has a lot of contact with Detroit except with higher echelons of Detroit city government and attendance at a few events a year in the city. Yes, I know what he does. No one has denied his role in the region. Maybe there is something else you can tell me that was not in the papers for the last 25 years. That's what I'm waiting for. What I have seen so far is your nonstop attacks against anyone who disagrees with (or in this case questions what is behind) your position. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 878 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Lmich, not trying to compare them - just saying that it doesn't seem reasonable to believe that folks moved to the burbs for ?? while Detroit sat there (and still sits there) with beautiful safe neighborhoods, excellent schools and a far-flung vibrant public transportation system. In some ways, Detroit has/had qualities that no other city has ever had - a foreign country on one border (with cultures of its own) many distinct, unique and separate ethnic neighborhoods, buckets & buckets of money from an industry that was, for the most part, unique to & centered in Detroit, a great waterfront, unlimited fresh water supply, plenty of land, and willing investors & enterpreneurs. I know I'm missing a ton of others. Who else had world famous architects building unique, beautiful industrial plants? Nearly everyone left because Detroit was a hub or node? Of who? Hudson's was an unsustainable fluke? Are you sure? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1541 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.29 |
Huggybear your naivete is coming thru again.But before I comment on that please note that I have not directly said anything in support of LBP or anyone else on this thread.I have said that his constituents like what he does and the evidence shows that; they keep electing him. Now why would I say he knows more about the city? Because he lived in Detroit went to U-D and U-D law school in Detroit and has been a part of Detroit politics for 30 years plus. He has said he has a good relationship with Kwame(did you read the article?) Obviously his unwillingness to support a tax for Cobo is evidence that he has investigated and finds the idea not beneficial to his constituents. As for his contact with only the upper echelons what of it? Politics is for the rich and famous huggybear.I really don't see your point there.His job is to be in touch with the upper echelon. I mean nothing mean sprited here(can you say the same?) but your intial reaction to this thread reveals your considerable emotional reaction to LBPs statement that OC cut the umbilical cord a long time ago. Whether you or I like it or not it is a true statement.And the fact that it was made by someone with as much inside knowledge as LBP makes it all the more credible. Karl and Lmich....Lmich, Detroit was certainly the equal to nyc and chicago in terms of culture, retail, quality of living etc, etc. I'll say it again crime is a huge reason for Detroits downfall.Using Hudsons as an example prior to the downtown store closing there was a fatal stabbing outside the store.That along with a high crime rate in general helped to seal Hudsons fate. Most downtown dept stores eventually closed Chi and nyc being the exception but when Hudsons closed almost every city of comparable stature still had a downtown dept store and suburban stores as well. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3038 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I didn't read most of the post (I'll go back later, probably), but can you name a few cities comparable to Detroit in some way that had downtown department stores in the mid-80's and which ones didn't? I think you'll be surprised at how many didn't. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Lmich: You said dept. stores, in the plural. How many were there before the downtown went south? I never hear much mention other than Hudson's, outside of the drug stores and the 5 & dimes. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3039 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I don't know, but I wasn't talking about downtown Detroit. I was simply wondering how many other cities had department stores (or a single one) in the 1980's outside of New York and Chicago. CL made it sound as if Detroit was the only department store-less city at the time, and I'm not completely sure, but I don't think that was the case. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1542 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.95 |
Hey Lmich here are a few from what I consider cities similar in size/stature to Detroit. Pittsburgh_ Kaufmans Phila_ Wannamakers Chi_ Fields Nyc_Macy's Most if not all of this list are open today. I also believe Cleveland, and Seattle had/have downtown flagship stores. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6456 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
Exactly - and the 'game' has a direct result on the entire region. A region that is falling to shit I may add. While people can claim that LBP does what is best for his constituents they fail to see that this is not a group of counties that stand on their own. It is a region. While his primary role is to look out for his constituents he also needs to work regionally to identify long term solutions to a region that is failing more than nearly all other regions in the US. He can claim his county is hurt by Detroit or realize that his county does not stand alone and that he and other local politicans must work together to address the entire region, not just their respective areas of representations. No wonder why Michigan politics is the laughing stock of the country. LBP loves to brag about OC but will not support any regional issues or any activities that don't have a direct 1:1 coorelation of benefit for his constituents. LBPs divisive attitude on regionalism and OC first and only will show results in the future. That is a very bleak future for all of SE Michigan, OC included. His mentality is very short term and he is either too ignorant to see the long term regional impacts or doesn't give a shit because he will be dead and gone by the time that that things really fall to their lowest point. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 425 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 194.138.39.53 |
I feel like we are having a conversation with both of CL's personalities. I mean, s/he starts this thread touting the OC strength in businesses as reported by Hour Magazine and that OC has "cut the umbilical cord" with Detroit. While NOONE has disagreed with him/her, but tries to explain their opinions why LBP has been sucessful and that he's a crafty Polititian, CL just continues to tell everyone we are just being "emotional" about defending Detroit and in the process calls everyone dilusional and naive (anyone got a mirror?). I didn't see anything "emotional" about Huggybear's responce or anyone elses. What I see is CL trying to provoke everyone, because noone has attacked her/him. Infact, these people actually LIVE in Detroit and have a first hand knowledge, but obviously LBP, who lives in the OC and probably only comes to Detroit and has exposure to upper level political figures has a deeper understanding of Detroit than anyone else is capable of... Huh? I guarantee you that LBP is SO far removed from the REAL Detroit, that his deep knowledge goes back to what Detroit USED to be in the late 70's and 80's. I even doubt that Kwame has extensive knowledge of the REAL Detroit. For CL to defend LBP's "knowledge and understanding" of Detroit is ridiculous. That's like saying I have a deep understanding of Ann Arbor, because I lived there 10 years ago and haven't visited back, since. The way I see it, this is like all other CL threads. "I need people to argue with me, because I don't get enough attention at home. I'll create a thread and never agree with anyone, have logic that is illogical and I will NEVER open my mind to understand anyone elses points of view, because the only one that matters is mine." So, you're right, Citylover. NOONE on this forum can discuss the OC and LPB. We don't CARE! We care about Detroit. We care about Detroit's severe problems and we want to find a way to fix them so this City can become what is SHOULD be. I am tired of hearing you bitch and moan about being attacked or called names when, if you read each and every one of your own responces you will realize that YOU are the one provoking people to attack you. Calling Lmich delusional? Calling Huggybear naive? screw it. This thread is going to way of "Ann Arbor is a suburb of Detroit". An absolute waste of my time to read and respond and Ann Arbor is STILL a suburb of Detroit. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 562 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 66.227.165.194 |
I am still trying to figure out which city s/he loves... countylover maybe? The reason I say that is that many of you here are right, there is a strong division here, OC vs. Detroit. Suburbs vs. City. And LBP is leading the way. I believe that unless both work together, the region will continue to go to shit. Detroit is not the only place that is losing people, this whole area will start losing more people. Jobs, excitiment and city life are what people crave, new graduates such as myself continue to crave a Detroit revival and would love to live in the city, but hate the rest of the region, so we flock elsewhere. Those who need a job but love the suburban life are moving to the southwest. Were are we heading as a region? no where. Said it before, I will say it again: "This regions only hope is the revival of downtown detroit." Not just the city of Detroit, but the whole stinking region. Now if we can only get LBP, idiots in Livonia, and other suburbs to agree on mass transit. Then this region may start competing with other places in this country for industry, technology, jobs, and such. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1543 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 67.36.21.210 |
What I have always liked most about Brooks Patterson is his sense of humor. He can, and does, laugh at himself. That is a rare commodity these days, and seems to be getting rarer. He started out as a noisy young lawyer for the anti-busing movement in Pontiac, and I thought he was a racist. But times changed and he mellowed. He might have been governor or senator. But early on, he made the mistake of running against an incumbent senator. Later, he ran a much better race for governor, but again lost in the primary. That fall, he agreed to be his party’s sacrificial lamb, running for attorney general against the unbeatable Frank Kelley. When a reporter asked him where he would be on Election Night, Brooks said, “down in the bunker with Eva Braun.” That was the end of Brooks running for statewide office. But ever since he has given heart and soul to Oakland County, and Oakland County has done very well. If the governor managed to achieve his kind of economic success statewide, they’d put platinum statues of her everywhere from Escanaba to Monroe. I disagree with some of Patterson’s policies, especially regarding urban sprawl. He’s had his problems with the bottle. But you can’t deny that Brooks Patterson has done his best to take care of those who voted for him. And in recent years, he has stood up for tolerance and moderation against those in his party who stand for bigotry and hate. He’s gotten better as he’s gotten older. Someday, I hope someone says the same about me. Hear Audio Story (requires Real Player anyone care to guess the author? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6460 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
But CL, to address a very simple and important question: Will LBPs attitude of OC first and only have a greater negative impact on SE Michigan in the long term compared to the positive short term impact of OC? That is my issue. He seems to believe and advocate that OC can and will stand on its own. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence and vision can see that will not happen. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1544 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 67.36.21.210 |
JT1 I cut and pasted this from mich radio(PREVIOUS POST)as for OC it seems to be doing fine now | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6462 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
and Detroit was doing just fine in the 50s, and Michigan was doing just fine in the 90s. My issue is with the continued lack of vision from our regional leaders. Investors don't give a shit if Detroit screwed up or OC screwed up or State policies allowed uncontrolled sprawl. What they care about is results and intelligent planning. LBPs pro sprawl and OC is doing fine regardless of the State speeches show his shortsightedness. As SE Michigan fails so does the State. OC will not be a little chunk of acreage that is immune from it. LBP refuses to acknowledge that. Do you disagree? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1545 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.124 |
The evidence as it is today is that OC is doing wuite well jt1.Detroit was losing population in the 50's. You may disagree with how things are done in OC and none of us knows the future but to an objective outsider OC would likely be the most attractive area of the metro area. Detroitduo you and Huggy can have a love in with your emotional responses........."the real detroit" ??? not quite sure what that is but I can fairly guarantee you that Brooks could give two shits about it and that it has nothing to do with reality. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6472 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
CL - Obviously you aren't grasping the long term ramifications that our regional and lack of regionalism will cause. Give it a few years and it will be more pronounced. I don't know if you are aware of this but OC is losing jobs. It iwll get much worse. But I guess it will all be fine as it will be 'better' than Detroit. You would work great in local politics with your perception of everything being based strictly on know without thought of the long term. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 428 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 84.156.55.177 |
Hey, JT1. Do you think the perspective of the "great" LBP would do well in Detroit? I mean, I guess Kwame is already taking that road by pursuing the NEZ bill which recently passed by the State. What other things does he have up his sleeve, do you think? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1546 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.156 |
I cut and pasted a piece of writing above from what I think an unlikely source about LBP.The writer(I hoped someone would guess) is Jack Lessenberry.He writes(above) that if the governor were as successful economically as LBP has been there would be statues erected in her honor.....Jacks words not mine. I really don't know how to respond to you jt1.You are claiming that OC is headed for doom and gloom yet it thrives today and has for quite some time.And it certainly is not losing population anywheres near tha level Detroit has and continues to. All he(patterson)said was that OC had cut the umbilical cord to detroit long ago.........that seems true enough.........and that he would like to see a revitalized Detroit.......that seems reasonable as well. The dynamic of this forum is such that reasonable dialogue seems almost impossible.Which is why I pasted the Lesenbery comments; at least he seems reasonable and is willing to give credit when it is obviously due. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 89 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
If anything spells out what Patterson has done for OC is Automation Alley. Nothing that anyone else in Metro Detroit accomplished could come close. Automation Alley From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Automation Alley is a name for the Interstate 75 corridor cutting through Oakland County, Michigan. A substantial number of high-tech companies have operations in or near the area. A formal organization called "Automation Alley" came into being in 1997 at the initiative of county executive L. Brooks Patterson, designed to further attract businesses and white-collar workers to the area. Headquarters of the organization opened in 2004 in the city of Troy. The area has no precise geographical boundaries, but communities generally considered to be a part of the area include Auburn Hills, Birmingham, Rochester Hills, and Troy. In April 2004, it was announced that the Automation Alley cluster had expanded to have an eight-county presence and include the City of Detroit. The presence now includes Genesee County, Livingston County, Macomb County, Monroe County, Oakland County, St. Clair County, Washtenaw County, Wayne County and the City of Detroit. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6475 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 4.229.99.68 |
So, CL - What is your expectation of SE Mich in 20 years | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1173 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
CL, see my post above. Much of Oakland's success has been directly at the expense of Detroit. Oakland will only continue to "succeed" as long as it has greenfields available for new development. Even then, it would be expected that "older" areas will deteriorate significantly before a full build-out is reached. The problem with L. Brooks's reasoning is that he acts as if socioeconomic forces stop and end at county lines, which is utter bullshit. Oakland County does not exist in a bubble, nor does the City of Detroit. Every action each entity takes, in some way, impacts the other. For example, Brooks has a record of not supporting a new rail-based transit system. What he ignores is that much of his county "thrives" due to bus-riding Detroiters taking $6/hr jobs in his county. Without those workers, there isn't anyone to wash dishes in the restaurants, or ring up sales at the store. But that would require too much thought, and it's much easier to focus on the white collar automotive engineers. ...and if Oakland truly has cut the umbilical cord, perhaps Brooks can tell us how the construction of the Oakland County water system is coming along. As far as I'm concerned, Oakland really isn't all that special, because it's not particularly distinguished from other suburban counties across the nation. You call it Oakland, we call it Fairfax. BFD. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3045 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Danindc, build-out is not the problem. The county will simply get denser in areas where it currently isn't. Oakland County will see (and is starting to see) decline when there is nothing left from Detroit from which to suck. The vacuum is still on, but most everything is already in the bag. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1174 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I don't perceive any future increases in density. Such a radical change to the zoning would be politically unpalatable, not to mention peoples' fears that traffic would become even worse. I'm not aware of any precedent for an increase in density once a county reaches full build-out. I think a good example for comparison would be Cuyahoga County (Cleveland), Ohio, which continues to lose population to the suburban collar counties, even though it is completely built-out. Do you know of anyplace an increase in density has happened due to lack of available land? | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2189 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.18.17 |
There's 872 mi2 of land in Oakland County. With only 1.2 million people, being built-out is not on the radar screen. In fact, look at a map of the county. Draw a line bisecting it from the SW corner to the NE corner. The part of the county above the line is still relatively undeveloped. Outlying towns like Ortonville, Holly, Leonard, Lakeville, Metamora, Davisburg, Rose Center, Highland and Newark are in Oakland County too but they're in the boonies as far as most metro-Detroiters are concerned. Despite the pace of sprawl it will be a LONG time before these areas are built-out. There's not much densifying going on yet but there is some in built-out cities like Birmingham, RO and Ferndale. As they become more popular the cities are permitting denser downtown residential development. Not everyone wants to live "out there", many want to be fairly close-in for all the usual reasons. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1549 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.231 |
There is so much to respond to I will try to keep it short. I am not an expert but then no one can predict the future so to thos of you that are sure OC is headed down the tubes forgive my callowness if I base my assessment/or opinion on what is. The topic was Brooks Patterson and a few things he said about Detroit and OC and politics, etc, etc. He said nothing mean spirited about Detroit.He said nothing radical or unreasonable.OC has 61,000 businesses in contrast th city of Detroit has lost 15,000 businesses...the umbilical cord statement is not some sort of dumb shit statement from so idiot without a bit of common sense. Which leads me again to the reaction of those of you here.All of you are quite smart and some are well educated yet it is interesting how emotions cloud reasonable thinking. Jt1 implies that LBP does not have an ounce of intelligence because.....well because he doesn't think like jt1.......well I can only go by the evidence and the evidence as it it now is that he has done an admirable job. What I see here is you all clamoring on about how bad things are gonna be but and sorry to beat a dead horse I base my observation on what is. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1175 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
So, CL, you're strictly focusing on superficial qualities, and not cause-and-effect. Is that a correct assertion? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1550 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.207 |
Nice try Dan but I think I made my self quite clear but for you I will do it again. I base my view on the job done by LBP.I even cut and pasted an article from of all people the liberal Jacl Lessenberry.Jack even admires the job LBP has done. Again I beg forgiveness from those of you that somehow want me et,al to believe that despite the fact OC is a prosperous vibrant place under LBP's stewardship that in fact you are right and he is a bumbling fool............and I choose to instead believe what I see. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 6485 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.20 |
OK - Let me change and clarify a bit: That is my issue. He seems to believe and advocate that OC can and will stand on its own. Anyone with an ounce of vision can see that will not happen. Better. I know LBP is intelligent. His vision, however is very shortsighted. That is the great thing about being old. You don't have to worry about ramifications after you are dead. LBP's vision of OC and OC only is a horrible vision and is not conducive to the viability of the entire region. He has stated that he has to explain Detroit when trying to get business to move to OC. That is exactly my point. He can tout OC to be paradise all he wants but everyone outside of SE Micihigan sees a region of multiple counties, not an independant OC. He can complain how that is hurting his county but does nothing to foster relationships and progress in the region if it may not be the best possible situation for OC. It's like having your arm laugh at your leg because your leg has cancer. The arm still has a lot to lose and thinking that everything is dandy is not the best approach. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1176 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
CL, the only try I made was to try to understand your POV. Damn--why does everyone on this forum take everything so personally all the time? I think you, like most people, are looking at the results of what Oakland County has achieved under the leadership of L. Brooks Patterson. I believe this is merely coincidental, and not necessarily due to the extraordinary intelligence and outstanding capabilities of one L. Brooks Patterson. I would argue that the factors that led to Oakland County's current successes are largely beyond Patterson's control, and thus trained monkeys could do almost as well. I think the man is taking credit where it's not due, hence the importance of examining the cause-and-effect relationship, and not merely the superficial, coincidental one. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 432 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 84.156.59.192 |
I said it before and I'll say it again. Noone has disagreed with sucess of OC or that LBP has lead that county to that success or his dedication to that county. Perhaps anyone could have done it, but whatever. Regardless of this, CL continues to not want to see anyone elses POV or even recognize that there could be a different POV other than her/his own. Everyone has made some wonderful input to this subject and it has been well worded and thought out. Now, let it die, because all the argueing in the world will not change CL's words or thoughts. You can bang your head against a brick wall, but the wall will still not come down. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 295 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.11.158.84 |
What you don't seem to understand is that isn't true and that's point everyone is trying to make OC on some level is still dependent on Detroit
What we want you believe is that while LBP's polices may be good for OC right now, that they aren't good for region and that there will be long term conqequences for his polices. LBP anti-transit stance may keep taxes lower now and constituents happy now, but it doesn't make us more competitive as region. LBP can say how much wants Detroit to come back, but until he and every other leader in the region is willing put his money where his mouth is then all he's doing is blowing hot air (Message edited by eric on January 19, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3046 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Danindc, Oakland County has some pretty dense areas along the Woodward Corridor, and those areas will become denser when the county is built out. It's already happening on a small scale in places like Ferndale, Royal Oak...which will all become even more important as the new sprawl is proven to be ineffective. They will be forced to become "downtown" Oakland County. The view of Oakland County as a suburban wasteland is only partly right. It has some nodes, that if connected to eachother and Detroit by effective mass transit could save the county later down the road, whereas a place like Macomb County is nearly all sprawl. Cayahoga County is much more akin to Wayne County in that it includes the central city, and both are losing population. It has little similarity to Oakland County. But, I don't know if many have noticed, but Oakland County is BARELY growing despite it's push northward. People are leaving the O.C., and their replacements are becoming fewer and far between. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3047 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
BTW, arguing with CL is futile. He either doesn't bother to read AND comprehend all that has been layed out in multiple posts here, or he's just not a good comprehensive reader. And, I don't say this because he doesn't agree with me, but because all of his responses reak of someone that has poor reading comprehension skills. Nothing he says seems to relate to anything with what we've just said. It's a tired, old rehearsed mantra, a total disconnect. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1551 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.184 |
Is this something understandable Lmich?.....FUCK YOU you insulting prick.You are arrogant.Why on earth should I "bother" to read all the crap written by you it is just your opinion.You are a college student for christ sake when you have practiced law, ran a county and been entrenched in big time politics then come back and insult me until then fuck off..........how's that for personal? The problem I have with the arguments presented to me here are that it is mostly speculation.You want me to believe that things are gonna get bad in OC....well they aint now and that is the only realstic way I know of assessing things. Danindc you think it is coincidental that OC has prospered under Patterson_ I disagree and I think many people would disagree with you as well. Jt1 did you read the little article?Patterson is not against anything.He is for what will benefit the taxpayers of OC.What the hell is so horrible about that? Sorry folks but you all come across as petty, vindictive and full of misplaced venom. The umbilical cord statement was made by someone that knows what he is saying....sorry it bothers you all but there is nothing far out about that statement. Direct your venom toward the shitheads i.e. city council, city admin and municipal unions in Detroit that have kept thir heads in the sand about turning Detroit around.Your arguments to take an idea from Lmich is the same tired rehearsed mantra about poor little old Detroit and the boogey man LBP and OC. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 563 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 66.227.165.194 |
Let me try to be the voice of reason here... After countless posts and much bickering, this seems to be the jist of this thread. LBP is a smart guy, a good advocate for the OC. The OC has grown and seems to be doing well. It can be argued that the OC is doing well on the back of Detroit and "taking" from Detroit. Detroit doing bad is not all the OCs fault. Both the city and the OC are responsible for the failure to communicate. LBPs current vision and idea of the OC are not contructive to the rest of the Metro Region. Detroit, whether the OC likes it or not will always be the central city and the namesake of the region. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3052 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
CL, call me arrogant all you want, you'd never illicit a childish tantrum response from me like that. I hate to push buttons, but it looks like I know yours. I love your idea of me as some "college kid" as if that's a slur term. You seem to use it EVERY time you're displeased with me. lol Sounds like you have your own personal complexes and stereotypes (educationally) that you need to deal with. I don't know which college students have rubbed you the wrong way, but you need not take it out of me. sheesh. Mike, I agree with everything there. The only thing I would strees is that OC \i(seems} to be doing well (parts are, but it's really more people moving from South OC to the north more than anything else). (Message edited by lmichigan on January 19, 2006) | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1552 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.184 |
Nope Lmich the college reference is because of you r age and inexperience.And when you tell someone there reading comprehension is lacking and they bring nothing but distraction then you Lmich are being arrogant and insulting.The only other time I recall I made reference to you being in college was when I complimented you and Sarge on the UM supreme court case........so any negativity you attach is yours and you may keep it. Btw the word is elicit........ | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 98 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Hang in there, CL. "someone there reading comprehension " BTW, the word is "their", not "there", but it should have been "my", "his", or "her", in any case. Somehow, I cannot see why OC should depend upon much on Detroit! Just because it's the titular namesake for the region? So what? Most of OC's residents never lived in Detroit anyway. Few ties to Detroit on that basis. Not after 30 to 50 years of out-migration. If I were raw materials going to OC from Ohio, I would take I-275 if by truck or by rail via the "Detroit Line" from Toledo to Delray and through Rougemere and points beyond. Detroit would simply be somewhere to transit through, but not to visit. If my place of work or business were in OC and I lived there or in Macomb County, why go to Detroit, save for an occasional sporting event which I could take or leave? There's no "big-box" stores in Detroit other than one Aldi at 8 and Gratiot, so that's too far out. I'm confused. Patterson is just doing the job his constituents elected him to do. KK isn't doing anything extraordinary for anybody outside of Detroit, or within it, IMO. But it's a relative lull before the SB. Afterwards, some hard choices will have to be made in Detroit. The honeymoon will be over and the SB's importation of funds will all be spent... | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1553 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.184 |
Thanks for the writing lesson Livernoisyard.......I don't disagree with anything you say.......how could I? In any case we will see how things turn out.But in the meantime I base my view on what is. | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 680 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.222.11.226 |
Okay everyone...TIME OUT!!! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 100 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Relax! Have a sense of humor. I'm in general agreement with you. But the temptation was too great to pass over - your flaming one for an error while making one yourself... [Just to be safe, I'd better check this post so that I don't err myself. Wouldn't want any flaming battles.] | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1554 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.126.1 |
I took no offense L'yard.Sure I flamed but only to show the irony of Lmich patronizing my intelligence. Feel free to correct me any time.I will take all the help I can get. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
In case anybody needs to work off some aggression, try this instead: BeingIT |
