Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Book-Cadillac plans delayed Previous Next
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Detroitman
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Username: Detroitman

Post Number: 892
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 216.78.45.59
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 8:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060121/BUS INESS07/601210328/1020/BUSINES S
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Eric_c
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Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 606
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.73.55.127
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 10:01 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why, specifically?
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 467
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 12:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whoa, I'm shocked. (not). I'm expecting to see the second coming of Jesus before the Book Cadillac ever gets rehabbed. Is part of all the delays that the November announcement was a very premature one that was just election hype for Kwame?
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 298
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.158.84
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 3:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had a feeling this was coming and I have feeling come spring we're gonna to see another delay.
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Jasoncw
Member
Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 85
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 148.61.248.29
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 9:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe they figured if they were already delayed a bit they might as well wait a little longer for better construction weather.

At first I thought it was because hurricances hurt petroleum output. :-)
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 107
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 10:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Three or so years ago, there were glowing reports that the public accomodations would be all finished two months before the SB. The apartments would be partially occupied. That first firm (from Chicago if my memory holds) gave up after it realized that the plan was a big loser.

So another firm steps in after a hiatus and similarly threw in the towel after it too realized how much of a loser the project was. And the grand plans of the first proposal weren't expected by the second group anyway - a lowering of expectations.

Why should anyone be surprised? There's no phony draw as another SB to spur on the current group.
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Dove7
Member
Username: Dove7

Post Number: 1934
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.5.195.127
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 10:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder where is that guy at who post and has the latest info. about the cadillac and explanations for delays. Can't keep explaining/excusing this. It's all hype.
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Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 335
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.209.187.90
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 10:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dove7, if you are referring to Skulker - I am confident that he will have answers to EVERYTHING including explanations for delays or whatever the case may be. Give him some time, maybe Monday, in order to respond to this news report.

(Message edited by darwinism on January 21, 2006)
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Matt_the_deuce
Member
Username: Matt_the_deuce

Post Number: 447
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.248.252
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 11:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dove - skulker owes you an explanation!!! I know that's not what you said, but why the hate? Why do you want it to fail?

Livernois - Kimberly Clarke was the company, pulled out after costs escalated during remediation, and then a change in the companies business model. If it surprises you that developement deals fall through, then you must be living under a rock.

Has the new developer thrown in the towel? Jeez, do tell... unbelievable. The superbowl never had anything to do with the new deal.

You must really have a hair up your ass for the project failing - almost sounds personal.
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Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover

Post Number: 1564
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 4.229.123.53
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 11:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah I was gonna say Skulker as well.But why gloat over something we all want to see happen postponed yet again.

I still think, and I know I have zero expertise,that whatever is fundamentally wrong in Detroit will have to be adressed.

Of course you all know I constantly cite nyc, the reduction of crime, and how it affected that cities revitalization...........crime reduction was the single most reason for nyc i.e. Harlem and other boroughs to see a rejuvanation.
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Motorcitymayor2026
Member
Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 395
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.10.63.140
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

better take those plans to your Ann Abrbor city council! :-)
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5392
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read that there are 19 funding streams for the Book, plus umteen different tax credits. Nothing of this magnitude or difficulty has been attempted before in Detroit. I think the real story is that they're still trying to pull this off.
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Jasoncw
Member
Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 86
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 148.61.248.29
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Imo, they've gone past the point of no return. After all that, I think it's too late to say "eh, nevermind." It's a possibility I suppose.

Also, about the superbowl, I read here before that the direct economic impact of the auto show is actually more than the superbowl, and the auto show happens every year. I don't think that such a big development would be so dependant on the superbowl.

sorta related: I know that the city got it's act together to make Detroit look good for the superbowl, but I don't see why developers would devlop because of the superbowl. I understand temporary business (hell, a kid could make a killing with a lemonaide stand, even in february) but what does the superbowl have to do with these other things? I know it's happening but why?

I know that there are some rules about revealing your identity here, but who/what is Skulker? I trust him, and am thankful for him for coming here to share his knowledge with the community when so many people don't, but what is he?
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5394
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 1:30 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Daddy, who is Skulker?"

A question a child might ask, but not a childish question.

Indeed, who is Skulker? What does he mean to Detroit? To Michigan? To all of humanity?

There are many ways to define Skulker: Tony award-winning playright, kung fu master, fashion designer, a three-time Heisman Trophy recipient...

And those are just the items on his resume. What isn't public is Skulker's deft touch with the ladies. Women swoon as Skulker approaches. After a night of intense love-making, women pay him. If Skulker were to have sex with a man, it isn't because he's gay, it's because he's gone through every woman in Michigan.

Skulker bats and bowls 300. To handle his fan mail, the Post Office gave him his own ZIP code. Skulker's Souffle au Chocolat is the only dessert served in Buckingham Palace.

As an ordained minister, Skulker has converted thousands of heathen to Methodism. Although no longer practicing medicine, the Skulker Memorial Wing at Boston General is dedicated to his mythic artistry in healing.

Skulker's prize-winning hydrangias were the subject of a Botany Today cover story. He refutes the laws of thermo-dynamics. Skulker's urine has been packaged and is sold as "Red Bull."

Civil libertarians worry that one day Skulker will suspend habeas corpus.

So you see, Timmy, "Who is Skulker?" is a question that is too hard to answer in a single post. Now it's almost time for "Skulker" on TV. Why not change into your skulkers and we'll watch it together in the skulkerroom.
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Tetsua
Member
Username: Tetsua

Post Number: 470
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 69.246.5.196
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 4:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL, That's a hell of an introduction.
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Eric
Member
Username: Eric

Post Number: 301
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.158.84
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 5:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did you know Skulker is the godfather of my son? He shows up at the church in his golf pants, caked in mud. Well, ol' Skulker pushes the priest aside and says, 'I'll baptize that piece of calamari!' Then he pours Scotch all over my baby son and says, 'There! You're baptized!'

He makes every woman that sleeps with him refer to him as Bear Bryant

He'll eat a homeless person if you dare him.

To Skulker! A ten-foot-tall, two-ton son of a bitch who could eat a hammer and take a shotgun blast standing!
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3271
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.84.189
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 9:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Be clear in your understanding. There is no developer for the BC. The one mentioned is the potential developer. Currently the DDA owns the BC and is making all the decisions. This has been another DDA fiasco as it continues to waste money. No one wants the bldg unless the DDA pays for its renovation.

The project ain't working because as I have continously said it costs too much and the ROI will take too long to recover. The DDA has screwed up the market in the CBD for these type of developments.
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Kathleen
Member
Username: Kathleen

Post Number: 1130
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.122.57
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 11:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nolan Finley's column in today's Detroit News:

NO TAKERS FOUND FOR RESTORATION OF BOOK CADILLAC

"...no one can come up with a business plan to make the Book-Cadillac viable. Investors see the hotel market in Detroit as questionable, given the lack of convention business and the coming glut of rooms from the three casino hotels."
...
"Two more banks are coming in over the next couple of weeks, and the city says it is a long way from giving up. But this is most likely Book-Cadillac's last hope.

"If this deal doesn't work, we have to consider demolition," says George Jackson, recently named to Detroit's top development post. "That's not something we want, but keeping it may be totally unrealistic."

For the complete text: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060122/O PINION03/601220331/1271
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Broken_main
Member
Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 724
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UNBELIEVABLE...yet believable. Kwame is going to have to answer up to this one for sure.

The last paragraph sums up what I said in the Sanders thread this morning.


quote:

But the reality is that very few -- probably none -- of the crumbling buildings can be saved without a heavy investment of public dollars.

Detroit has to make tough choices. It must be brutally honest about the buildings that are viable for restoration and willing to sacrifice the rest to the wrecking ball, even ones as sentimentally significant as the Book-Cadillac.

If a redevelopment project can find no takers even with taxpayers picking up two-thirds of the risk, it should be a solid clue that the building has no future.

And Detroit has no future as an urban ruin, an architectural museum devoted to deteriorating hulks. Preservationists have to recognize that Detroit must target its resources to achieve the maximum impact -- it just can't save everything.

Spare the buildings that make economic sense, tear down the ones that don't and get busy refilling downtown with structures that will help create a new heyday for Detroit


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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 792
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.252.125.166
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If a redevelopment project [ON FARMLAND IN THE OUTER SUBURBS] can find no takers [EXCEPT WHEN] even with taxpayers [AND UTILITY RATEPAYERS] picking up [100%] two-thirds of the [COST OF ROADS AND OTHER INFRASTRUCTURE] risk, it should be a solid clue that [SUCH DEVELOPMENT] the building has no future.

Of course, subsidies are ok if they're not in Detroit.
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Aiw
Member
Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5250
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.71.64.113
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drm hit the nail on the head...

Sprawl-atcha!

From the Detroit Hilton in Southfield.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 1572
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 4.229.123.111
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess that is all about political power and who has it DRM.

Broken main my question would be how is it that tearing old bldgs down that no one wants will somehow magically create a market for new bldgs? The Tuller site and the vast amount of vacant land where bldgs once were tells me a different story.
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Rasputin
Member
Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3413
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.192.149
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 1:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathleen: Finally Finley has written something reakistic and that I can agree with. Still saying, "TEAR THAT SCHITT DOWN" though. It ain't worth the money!! and this quote says it all "And Detroit has no future as an urban ruin, an architectural museum devoted to deteriorating hulks.

Black-atcha ..... btw: the Mayor won't have to answer to schitt when that MoFo is demolished!
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Broken_main
Member
Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 727
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 1:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not saying that tearing the buildings down will "magically create a market". I am saying that there has to be some individual or group of individuals with a vision for these typse of buildings. Instead of letting these buildings rot and be purged by the locals, let's breathe some life into them.

Don't get me wrong. Broken_main is all about saving buildings that are savable.
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Jsmyers
Member
Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1359
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.212.226.203
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 2:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think there is an awful lot of over-reacting going on.

We all understand how this redevelopment is one of the most complicated ever (largely because the city is protecting their long-term liability).

Things have to get signed, stamped, and approved all in a specific order. Many of you have a mortgage, imagine getting 5 mortgages and doing your taxes 10 times, and getting audited every time. It is going to take a while.

The Freep Press article says nothing but that it is taking longer than hoped.

Finely has many of his facts wrong. It is funny how some think he is the worst slime around - until he sides with them.
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3276
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.84.189
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 5:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This development is not complicated. That is a tactic used by the folks who support the DDA to keep others from attempting to gain information or scrutinize this deal.

Visteon built their HQ on a landfill with millions in Tax incentives. Could they have spent the same near or in the CBD?
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Tomoh
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Username: Tomoh

Post Number: 58
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.189.92
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 11:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The argument made in that editorial about having to tear down a building the day it's found to be unviable or whatever is crap when considering that the market for downtown residential and perhaps hotel rooms is increasing (so why not shift to more residential and less hotel in the business model?). And at the same time, the BC is becoming more historic every day, like a fine wine. :-) So just because some development is just shy of a working business model today doesn't mean it won't be a better deal tomorrow.
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3433
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 12:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here I am....I had important work to do in my investigation of the temporal - spatial flux characterstics of the 14th dimension.

1.City Council refused to allow the HUD 108 loan ($18 MM) to be subordinated to the Empowerment Zone bonds in December 2005. Trouble is, EZ bonds cannot be subordinated meaning they are no longer an option for financing, thus forcing the developer to seek capital suppliers willing to invest $50 MM as second position. It takes more than 45 days to find and excute agreements such as that. Nolan Finley knows that and is being a muckraker and deliberately provactive. Why did he not bother to point out the crucial change in the HUD 108 subordination but instead choose to write a very misleading article? Hmmmmmm

2. The condo portion is fully financed but a tentative lender for the hotel portion, found immediately after the Council vote, pulled out after they lost their shirt on another hotel deal and became gun shy on the hospitality industry. This lender had been in the deal less than 2 weeks.

3. Capital is not freely available as there is the potential for very quick bucks in New Orleans and that is where a large portion of the investment capital is flowing currently or is being held to invest in NO once the fate of certain neighborhoods is better known. That said, there are capital sources and lenders who are very intersted in the deal and a few of them toured the building last week. Lenders do not fly CEOs and Veeps around from NYC to spend a day in Detroit if they are not serious about lending. Something must have looked good to them to spend an entire day on a project, even with the debt subordination to the HUD 108.

4. Nolan Finley has gotten several facts wrong such as the assertion 2/3rds of the project is tax payer money at risk. Less than 20% of the project is tax payer investment. Lumping federal tax credits and state tax credits in as tax payer risk is disingenuous at best. Even his assertion that the hotel market is in the dump is belied by the fact that the Hilton Garden Inn is runng 70% occupancy at a $115 average daily rate. Those are very nice numbers for a hotel less than 2 years old. It tells me that the occupancy rate in Detroit is due in part to lack of quality product, not lack of business. The BC would be another quality product.
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Mind_field
Member
Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 470
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 12:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really really hope that this building gets rehabbed, but it doesn't look good.
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Jsmyers
Member
Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1360
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 12:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the explanation.


quote:

City Council refused to allow the HUD 108 loan ($18 MM) to be subordinated to the Empowerment Zone bonds in December 2005. Trouble is, EZ bonds cannot be subordinated meaning they are no longer an option for financing, thus forcing the developer to seek capital suppliers willing to invest $50 MM as second position.




I'm I correct in understanding that this means if not for CC's decision, things would likely be proceeding normally? Was everything all set up, but CC kicked a leg out from under it?
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3434
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 12:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HUD 108 loans are at the discretion of City Council and the Mayor. They were aware of the issue for more than a year and in the end refused to allow the loan to be subordinated.
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Naturalsister
Member
Username: Naturalsister

Post Number: 445
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.30.96.12
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 1:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, for a writer to assert that we don't need the Book-Caddy because of a lack of conventions booking in the area...

I hear this sentiment quite often and I see it as pessimism and a lack of vision. Isn't this basically what causes all of the bickering over COBO.

We could generate far more visitors for business and pleasure as we add to the pool of possible venues and hotel space.

later - naturalsister
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6502
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 1:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker hates buildings.
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Eric
Member
Username: Eric

Post Number: 303
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.158.84
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 1:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What the hell was CC thinking? It's kinda sad that I'm no longer shocked by the stupid things they do.
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E_hemingway
Member
Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 459
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.42.176.123
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 1:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What was the CC's reasoning for its move? Was it a unanimous vote?
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 1963
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 3:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker, excuse my naive question but isn't subordinating debt placing it in a riskier position in the event of default wrt where it would have been? (In fact subordinating it to EZ bonds as you have mentioned seems to put it waaay below the pecking order to ever get paid off should the developer bite the dust.) If so wouldn't this put the city at a HIGHER risk than had been the case with the prior financial package that had been alluded to? It seems to me that an 11th hour change to the terms that increases the city's risk is precisely the sorta thing city politicos should watch out for.
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3438
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 4:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Subordination of debt is indeed the "pecking order" in which things get paid off.

In the event of bankruptcy or default, the "first position debt" gets paid first and then the second position and so on until all debts are exstinguished or the money runs out, which ever happens first.

EZ bonds cannot legally be subordinated debt. City Council, when approached about the HUD 108, authorized the pre-application for a 108 loan that was subordinate to the first position bonds. They further approved the action of issueing EZ bonds, knowing the bonds would be first position. (The 108 was in second position, not "waaay" down the pecking order) When it came time to take it to the next stage and final application, City Council (with the same membership) reversed itself and would not allow the 108 to be subordinated. The 11th hour change came from Council, not from the developer and not from the mayor's office. The 108 is for $18 MM or 11.25% of the $160 MM hotel project cost.
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Merchantgander
Member
Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1492
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 4:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Book-Cadillac is that the building on Washington and Congress next to Cobo selling Superbowl merchandise.
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Gumby
Member
Username: Gumby

Post Number: 794
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 204.39.224.105
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 4:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lol merchantgander.



So where does this leave the project Skulker.
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Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1479
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.236.200.23
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 4:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker:
Thanks for the update.

Will the CC reconsider the loan subordination?

If so, would you like a couple hundred letters, emails and so on to appear before the CC in support of it?
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3439
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 4:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At this point, I think the odds of private capital for the $50 MM in construction on the hotel portion will likely be secured in the next 60 days.

The issue of loan subordination does not substantively change the deal, it just would have been nice to know, and things could be farther along, that they were going to ixnay the subordination.

As Rustic pointed out, it's all about risk tolerance. I don't see anything wrong with the Council or anybody else not wanting to subordinate 108's. I have no quibble with them regarding the decision, it just is another delay for the developer to work around.

(Message edited by skulker on January 23, 2006)
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Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic

Post Number: 1967
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 5:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So the developer or the city or whatever hasta find another source for debt willing to be subordinate to these bonds, what's the big deal?
(1) The building ain't going anywhere. (as if, lol!)
(2) frankly there isn't a screaming immediate market need for EITHER a rehabbed BC OR more open land in the CBD in the near future (the PR bonus of having a rehabbing BC when the Superbowl is in town was lost when the first deal with KC fell through and no immediate deal was put in place).
(3) Skulker has written before that the city $$ being burned on the BC since the past deal fell through (a) would be paid back as part of any eventual BC development deal OR (b) if no deal materialized and the building were to be torn down was for stuff that would hafta be done on the cities dime anyway.

So 1&2&(3a|3b) --> the opportunity cost of further delays are not too bad right now ...
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Metrodetguy
Member
Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2197
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.221.78.58
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 6:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder where is that guy at who post and has the latest info. about "The National Trust for Historic Preservation is just someone's website" and explanations for claims of "Congress awarding a Purple Heart to Rasputin", "Rasputin's sniper training for Detroit youth at 1000m w/an M1 Rifle", and "Rasputin's claim that the Huxtables kids on the Cosby were poor and hung out on the streets really meant Fat Albert". Can't keep explaining/excusing this. It's all bogus claims.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8082
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.228.202.51
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 6:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No one said working with the motor cities was easy...the above, case in point.
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Tomoh
Member
Username: Tomoh

Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.189.92
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 8:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker, I don't know how you know all this stuff but it's amazing and I'm glad you shared it. Some elite knowledge there. I'll take home to heart the last part about the downtown Detroit hotel market lacking quality product, not demand, as a positive thing to think about.
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5408
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 9:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker is the men's room attendant on the 13th floor of the CCB. It's amazing what he overhears.
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Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 112
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 9:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's a **13th** floor?
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Motorcitymayor2026
Member
Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 409
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.10.63.140
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 10:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the 13th floor is City Council domain.... no wonder things are so screwed up over there...
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Rasputin
Member
Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3423
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 1:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The CC finally got something right!! and there was enough community opposition for them to take notice! Kinda funny how those "soups" expect to be "rubber-stamped" just because .....

roflmbao ..... that's what happens when ya try to back-door and spin something off the backs of the disenfranchised of that area that prolly wouldn't/couldn't use that "white elephant" anyway!! and bullschitt .... Skulkers spin on public dollars "don't hunt!" (for those that didn't know, Skulker works for the MoFo's that put that schitt together .... so quit being amazed. Ya oughtta be pissed about what he's NOT telling you!!)

TEAR THAT SCHITT DOWN


Black-atcha ....
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3285
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.84.103
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

December 2005, an attempt to put things through in a lame duck session while folks were assumed to not be paying attention.

Ditto what Rasputin said. The comminity got heard. No more free rides on the backs of Detroit taxpayers.
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Nellonfury
Member
Username: Nellonfury

Post Number: 75
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.43.156.135
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 5:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The city needs to quit playing around about this "delay" stuff with the Book Cadillac. A while back this building is surpose to be complete before the SuperBowl,but we don't see any change.This just like saying "I wanna make love to you baby but I'm tired from work, maybe tomorrow if I feel like it".
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Dag
Member
Username: Dag

Post Number: 173
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.241.254.67
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 5:09 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^^^^^^^^^

The worst post ever posted.
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Mplsryan
Member
Username: Mplsryan

Post Number: 125
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.26.164.215
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 6:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm, I have vision and no money, imagine that, i'm also drinking and eating fried rice. Coincidence, no. People with lots'o'money only think in dollar sign$- that's where a bit of city $$ comes into entice them. It would be a catalyst for massive redevelopment.
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Nellonfury
Member
Username: Nellonfury

Post Number: 76
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.43.156.135
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 6:38 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THE WORST POST EVER POSTED???? It's true DAG!!!!
How many times are we going to keep hearing about "Book-cadillac plans delay"?
All of us on DetroitYes want to see a makeover of this building but the city keep delaying it.I'm I right or wrong?
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Jasoncw
Member
Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 102
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 148.61.248.29
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^ I think the city is helping the B-C more than it's hurting it, if it's really hurting it at all.

I think we should try to have confidence in it. One reason why these kinds of projects flop is because some minor thing happens, and all the people with money loose confidence in it and pull out.
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3455
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:46 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Semantics here, but the city is not actively "delaying" the project.

Projects like this move at their own pace as things get put together. Sometimes the project is closer to financial closing than at other times and sometimes sources of financing change or cost centers change.

Examples -

Three years ago, there was NO capital to be found for hotels as the national market was over built, nationally tourism was reeling from 9/11 and the nation was in a recession. This led the original developers to look at bond financing for the project because there was no bank or private loan capital in the hotel market. Since then, many hotels have been converted to condominiums(addressing the oversupply issues), tourism is back up and everybody but Michigan seems to be out of the recession. This has private lender capital looking at and investing in hotel projects again. CC's move to keep the 108 as first position debt is not a fatal blow simply capital is now available that was not available 3-4 years ago. Nolan Finley should and does know this but insists on being a twerp.


Katrina has made diesel fuel for generators to run constuction equipment very expensive and there has been a spike in materials cost. (Lots of drywall being used in the gulf states, driving up demand and therefore driving up costs.)

Patience my little ones. The night is always darkest before the dawn.

http://www.wdetfm.org/article. php?id=923&cat=9
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Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline

Post Number: 395
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 172.162.130.3
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:49 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ras and Brian, you can't name one "community" person who influenced the BC/HUD108 vote at the CC. Your so-called "community" has had not affected this deal in any way. Stop kidding yourself.
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Rasputin
Member
Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3427
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.192.149
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's awfully funny that you, Swingline, know who I know and names that I can name: white supremacy at its' best .... You sorry Son of a Bitch; shut the fukk up - immediately go back to sit in your corner and continue sucking your dirty thumb!!

Black-atcha ....
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Merchantgander
Member
Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1526
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker

Is there a possibility that Port Authority bonds could be used to bridge any funding gap that might occur? I thought that since the Port Authority could issue bonds it would make certain developments easier to be completed in the city.
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3457
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MG:
Moot point.
1. Port Authority legislation is not in place.
2. Port Authority bonds would not be able to be subordinated.
3. It is very likely that capital will be found very shortly, negating the need for bonds.
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Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline

Post Number: 396
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 172.162.130.3
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Didn't hear you name any names Ras. You don't know anything about me or the BC. You don't know who I know or what I do. Your profanity belies your ignorance and your "community's" lack of influence on this matter.
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Rasputin
Member
Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3430
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.192.149
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well I'll be damned, that boy finally got part of the picture!! Thought I'd have to paint a big question mark about his total intellectual capacity .... glad he finally saw some of what I posted. Used a translator, eh???

btw: Since when do I have to ask you whether I can/will use profanity??? You sick-sorry "white supremacist" bastard ... go take a running dive into an empty swimming pool!! It's cheaper than a mental health therapist .....

Black-atcha ..... watching Swingline's ignorance become visible even with his Hood on
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Bunny
Member
Username: Bunny

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 69.215.202.130
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 2:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker; you are such a great source of information! I almost believe the stories they posted about you above!

Just as a point of gaining perspective; has anyone ever noticed the big empty lot at the corner of 10 Mile (696) and Woodward? There have been several Developers with big ideas for that empty corner in the 15 years since they leveled the neighborhood; all have backed out for economic reasons. There is supposedly something in the works again, but I take a wait-and-see attitude on such things.
Obviously - saving the BC from parking-lot status is far more important than an empty lot in Royal Oak - but the issues Skulker brought up are not unique to Detroit.
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Llyn
Member
Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1389
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.61.197.206
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 2:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"It's awfully funny that you, Swingline, know who I know and names that I can name: white supremacy at its' best .... You sorry Son of a Bitch; shut the fukk up - immediately go back to sit in your corner and continue sucking your dirty thumb!!"

- and -

"btw: Since when do I have to ask you whether I can/will use profanity??? You sick-sorry "white supremacist" bastard ... go take a running dive into an empty swimming pool!! It's cheaper than a mental health therapist ..... "

Just had to see those in print again.
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Bunny
Member
Username: Bunny

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 69.215.202.130
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 2:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Absolutely no name calling will be allowed, directly or indirectly."

No one reads the "conditions" on this forum, do they?
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3468
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 3:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bunny:
Ras has apparently run out of his meds again. He can't help his behavior.
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Bertz
Member
Username: Bertz

Post Number: 493
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.61.15.89
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 3:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As usual Ras, your as "clear" as glass.
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Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline

Post Number: 397
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 172.141.19.254
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 6:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Come on, Ras, focus, stay on topic here. I really don't mind your name-calling. Just to show there's no hard feelings, I am looking forward to buying you a drink or a coffee or whatever you would like at the hotel bar of the BC when it reopens.
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3288
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.32.221
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 12:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Semantics here, but the city is not actively "delaying" the project.

Projects like this move at their own pace as things get put together. Sometimes the project is closer to financial closing than at other times and sometimes sources of financing change or cost centers change.





Translation, the city has done its part. The developer has to come up with the rest of the money in order to start work. Projects move at the pace of money. When there is alot of money to be made, things move quickly. When the ROI is in doubt, things can grind to a halt. Thus the DDA on behalf of the developer is looking for financing but no one is willing to bet the farm on this project.

Big words like subordinated usually mean simple things. In this case it means a worthless thing. Now the DDA and developer are looking for others to take on the risk of this project so that if it fails they won't bear the cost. When skulker writes,

quote:

Port Authority bonds would not be able to be subordinated.



It should tell you the state of this idea, close to going nowhere.

Just like KC, Ferchil does not have the money and does not want to commit the money for this development. KC had the ability to finance this development. But they did not believe it was worth the investment. Ferchil does not have the ability to finance this development on their own. Thus the need for subordination or subordinative loans.


This does not mean the BC can't be redeveloped. But the DDA really screwed up on this project. The BSC needs to be put on the open market and let someone who has money decide if it should be developed.
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Rasputin
Member
Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3438
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.192.149
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 1:55 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brian, if your suggestion was taken and used; that "white elephant" would be torn down the next day ..... Go figure!

I agree, NO ONE wants to put money into a failed venture, especially when the monied folk have already decided on 3 NEW buildings ..... maybe thse cry-babies will come up with the cash, eh?

Black-atcha ..... singing a Tina Turner hit, "What's Love Got to Do With IT?" and roflmbao
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Detroitman
Member
Username: Detroitman

Post Number: 895
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 216.78.36.220
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 10:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060128/BUS INESS07/601280342/1020/BUSINES S
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Tetsua
Member
Username: Tetsua

Post Number: 489
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 69.246.5.196
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 11:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The Ferchill Group of Cleveland says it reached agreement this week with an investment company for a $50-million first mortgage.

Delays in lining up a lead lender led to fears the hotel might be demolished.

But developer John Ferchill, while not identifying the lead investor yet, says the complex deal should now close around March 31.




I can't wait until this this is finally rehabbed. It's like a bad relationship with all the highs and lows.
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E_hemingway
Member
Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 466
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.42.176.123
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 1:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just get on with it already.
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 810
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.255.233.136
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Ferchil does not have the ability to finance this development on their own. Thus the need for subordination or subordinative loans.




Here comes Brian the finance expert again. "Subordinative" is an adjective that is never used when describing debt. Typical of your understanding of this project and the financing behind it. Don't speak until you read a book and quit making a fool of yourself.
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Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2669
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.209.188.186
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 4:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Don't speak until you read a book"

Anybody can read a book, the trick is to understand what you read.
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3291
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.84.192
Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 12:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DRM, your buddy skulker introduced that term above in reference to Bonds.

Bonds are debt that must be repaid.

As for the latest brief, which is not news, the credibility of John Ferchill is now on the line. A failure attached to his company will taint him in this business. Will he allow the DDA to paint that picture?

Now for the latest translation:
If the deal WILL close,work can begin today. If work must wait until after the 'deal' closes then it means the deal has a good chance of not closing.

The media has been burned so many times that they have taken to reporting on this in news briefs in stead of regular articles from an actual reporter. News briefs are reformated press releases.
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 811
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.252.71.113
Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 12:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

DRM, your buddy skulker introduced that term above in reference to Bonds.


Try again. You are the only person to use the word "subordinative" in this thread.

quote:

Bonds are debt that must be repaid.


No shit? Did you come up with this realization all by yourself?

quote:

Now for the latest translation:
If the deal WILL close,work can begin today. If work must wait until after the 'deal' closes then it means the deal has a good chance of not closing.


Bullshit. No contractor is going to start work without financing in place that assures he gets paid.
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3294
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.84.192
Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 1:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drm I see your point. You believe that subordinated and subordinative are two different words with two different meanings. I guess you are right and the dictionary is wrong.

As for the money, according to you and others who seek to speak for the developers/DDA, only $50M is left. Why can't the project start with the other $110M of the money that is supposedly already accounted for? If its a definate go, work can begin today. If they must wait for total committement this project will never get off the ground.
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 812
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.215.75.9
Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 3:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everytime I think you've hit the maximum stupidity level possible you go and kick it up a notch.
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3472
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.148.226.101
Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 9:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure, you have the down payment and the rebate lined up....and you've promised you will close the loan next Monday, so I don't see the harm in letting you drive this BMW home tonight!
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3295
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.83.54
Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 11:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker's post is making it seem as though this money is required in order for Ferchil to purchase the BC from the DDA.

In other posts skulker had said that work had begun as a prep for development by the DDA.

Some projects finance stages of the process. But that is assuming those developers have the basis to cover the cost of the development if the financing falls through. Ferchil does not have the money or the ability to finance this project without the DDA using the power of a municipal government to secure the loans. Thus the brief talk above about loans being made but not guaranteed.

Seems it was only a few years ago when on this subject skulker was saying that there was no way the developer would be able to walk away from this project without paying the total cost of all the loans granted for this project.

But I guess that detail got lost in the complex nature of this financing. At least the CC said it would not be left holding the bag on these loans if the developer walked away. For the CC to have approved the deal in december would have meant that tax payers would have to pick up more of the tab for this project and if the cities finances are as bad as skulker and other Hendrix supporters have asserted, the city would be forced to raise taxes without a vote of the people in order to pay off those bonds.

You sure leave out alot of information on these topics skulker.
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 813
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.215.75.9
Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 11:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't speak until you read a book and quit making a fool of yourself.
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Rasputin
Member
Username: Rasputin

Post Number: 3447
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 10:55 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looks like the do-do's (like DRM) can't understand REALITY, Brian. Is EXTINCTION in the works??

btw: Good post and on the dime!!

Black-atcha .....
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 814
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.215.75.9
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 11:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tag team morons. How entertaining.

Don't speak until you read a book and quit making a fool of yourself.
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Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1485
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.236.146.232
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 12:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Everytime I think you've hit the maximum stupidity level possible you go and kick it up a notch.



"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
- Mark Twain
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Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1486
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.236.146.232
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 12:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Don't speak until you read a book and quit making a fool of yourself.



Knock it off, DRM. If you keep saying that, they might actually start looking for the library.

And then what am I going to do for cheap entertainment?
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Llyn
Member
Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1395
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.61.197.206
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 3:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"At least the CC said it would not be left holding the bag on these loans if the developer walked away. For the CC to have approved the deal in december would have meant that tax payers would have to pick up more of the tab for this project and if the cities finances are as bad as skulker and other Hendrix supporters have asserted, the city would be forced to raise taxes without a vote of the people in order to pay off those bonds."

The HUD loan the CC voted not to subordinate was 15 million. The city budget is what... 2 billion prox? I'm not saying that 15 million isn't a lot of money, but that won't be the reason they raise taxes.

That is assumming of course that the project fails - which you seem dead certain of, but some of the rest of us remain unconvinced.

(Also, I have to say I find it odd that you quote "skulker and other Hendrix supporters" to make your point. If they were/are wrong on the city finances, then what is there to worry about?)
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3473
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 4:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CC voted for a $15 MM HUD 108 loan for this project as a first position loan. The remaining, oh, $150 MM or so is through the mortgage, equity and tax credits. The 108 loan in this case is 9.3% of the project cost while the developer is ponying up nearly $25 MM in their own cash as equity, or nearly 15% of project cost.

The CC also approved a $18 MM HUD 108 loan for a $40 MM project on Woodward where the old Blue Moon and Bittersweet Coffee shop are. In that case the loan is 45% of project cost and the developer is putting up less than $3 MM in equity which is only 7.5% of project cost. This loan was approved by CC even though their own fiscal analyst, the City Planning Commission, the Planning and Development Department and the Fiance Department all issued strong reccommendations not to issue the loan as the project is quite iffy.

Why aren't Brian and Ras outraged by that as well?
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6592
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 4:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Finances aside it will be great fo mid town to have that block renovated. That will make a nice extension from Mack north for a nice distance.

That's gotta bode well for the people that bought at the Ellington.
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3474
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 4:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have grave reservations about the project on Woodward, although I would love to see it happen as well. There is NO standard mortgage in that project while the BC is being financed by about 50% straight market mortgage with enough cold hard developer cash in the project to incent them to work very hard to ensure it happens.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6593
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 4:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker - Does the Woodward project have local/minority owned ties that would lead the CC to get behind a less than favorable project.

CC seems to go a little stupid when the words minority owned are involved with local development.
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Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 372
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 4:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What kind of proposals or ideas are going into the former Bittersweet/Blue Moon stretch ?

It is indeed an important stretch because it is currently breaking the continuity of Midtown to the Max. Jt1 is right, the people at Ellington shouldn't have to put up with such eye sore.
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3476
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 5:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

- Does the Woodward project have local/minority owned ties that would lead the CC to get behind a less than favorable project.

CC seems to go a little stupid when the words minority owned are involved with local development.




DINGDINGDINGDING We have a winner!!!!!!!!!

BTW, all the city staffers that cautioned against the project were minority, including Joe Harris.

Darwinism:

quote:

the people at Ellington shouldn't have to put up with such eye sore.



Then let them put together a deal that makes sense. The other 970,000 or so other Detroiters don't deserve to have their future CDBG disbursements recklessly endangered.
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Drm
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Username: Drm

Post Number: 819
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.214.191.249
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 6:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm disappointed that we've gone an entire thread with no "Helmut" reference.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 185
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 68.248.55.111
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 6:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Re: the $50,000,000 1st mortgage. I'd love to see the loan commitment for that one. 20 pages of Requirements and Contingencies, I'll bet. The question is, is that the first money in after the developer equity or the last?

Let's say the developer puts in $20,000,000. The project is supposed to cost, what, $160,000,000. That leaves $90,000,000 of junior/subordinate debt to cover. Let's say they use our money, tax deals; whoever buys that crap still wants their money back. How they gonna get it. Probably none of us have seen the pro-formas but I'll bet they include many S.W.A.G projections (semi-wild-ass-guesses.)

I hope it happens but it's a long shot in my book.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5454
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 6:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Brian is expressing a concern that, if the BC project fails, the City will be liable for millions of dollars.

I've heard the BC project compared to the Renaissance Grand (the former Statler) in St. Louis. Since that hotel is itself in bankruptcy procedings, I don't think Brian's concerns are terribly out of line.

Could someone please explain the City's financial exposure in this project? If the hotel underperforms, and loans are defaulted, is the City obliged to cover any of that debt?
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Drm
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Username: Drm

Post Number: 823
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.214.191.249
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 7:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ItsJeff, I agree, those are legitimate concerns and I don't have the answers. That is not Brian's argument, however.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3478
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.217.55.75
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 7:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3rdwc:


quote:

I'd love to see the loan commitment for that one. 20 pages of Requirements and Contingencies, I'll bet.



Yer right. Just like on any $160 MM project. Spare us the dramatics. If you are the big roller you claim, that is standard operating procedure and no cause for alarm on a project like this.

The subordination order is $18 MM Hud 108, $50MM loan for hotel, developer equity, 2 DDA loans. The residential portion is a separate transaction with the $7 MM mortgage in first position, the developer equity in second. The tax credit purchases are secured by seperate transactions such as lines of credit or insurance policies. That "crap" is not part of the repayment.

How they gonna get enough cash to pay it all back? Well lessee... the Hilton Garden Inn was projected to a 65% occupancy @ a $90 ADR at the end of year three. These projections came from one of the better firms, HVS that is also notoriously conservative. The project was financed with slightly expensive capital given the softish numbers. At the end of 21 months they are at 70% occupancy with a $110 ADR, have refinanced the building to cheaper capital and will be discharging a DDA loan early.
Same developer, same hotel consultants doing a similar project at the BC. By similar project I mean building a product that is in high demand for downtown markets but does not exist in Detroit. High demand product, no supply...good recipe for success if you can supply the product. The capital source is very comfortable with the BC projections, even as conservative as they are for the BC as put out by HVS. The capital source has worked on numerous deals with HVS and is fully comfortable with their projections and methodology.

Itsjeff:
A HUD 108 loan is secured by future Community Development Block Grant Funds from HUD. If the project went bankrupt and they had to sell the assets (beds, TVs, tables, building etc) all proceeds from that sale would pay the 108 loan first. The odds of not being able to raise what ever is left unpaid of the $15 MM from that sale is negligible. IF for what ever reason, it did go south and the full $15 MM hadn't been paid, what ever was left to be paid would be withheld by the Feds from future CDBG disbursements.

Say three years after the project opens, it go belly up...$5 MM or more of the $15 MM would have been repaid and if the fixtures auctioned off and raised only $9 MM (down from $20 MM) the City would lose $1 MM. Again, the odds of not being able to recover even 10% of project cost fo repayment are quite slim.

The DDA has about $12 MM in loans to the BC (the demo/abatement loans for activity common to rehab or full demo) that are way down in the subordination schedule. Those would be the last to be paid and would be the highest risk capital source. Those loans are not from the general fund but from the tax increment financing ability of the DDA.

If you recall, we descussed in detail the Empowerment Zone bonds and how even if in the event of default using those instead of a traditional mortgage, the City was in no way responsible for those.
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Brian
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Username: Brian

Post Number: 3296
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.83.69
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 11:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Itsjeff. that was my initial point years back when this project was first revealed. Skulker wrote the same he wrote above with a twist.

This is the first time the project is admitting that there are monies that don't have to be repaid in case of defaulting. That money must come from somewhere. KC walked away. Who is left to pay for the BC now regardless of what occurs, taxpayers. The DDA does not have free money. Its tax payers money. They do not finance themselves although they operate and think as though they are an independant banker.

I don't argue on estimates. Its the common sense clause that does not add up.



quote:

building a product that is in high demand for downtown markets but does not exist in Detroit. High demand product, no supply...good recipe for success if you can supply the product. The capital source is very comfortable with the BC projections, even as conservative as they are for the BC as put out by HVS.



As I said from day one, if its high demand it would be open for business by now. But skulkers statement does not say the BC is in high demand nor does he say that more hotels are in high demand but that other markets show a high demand. Would those other markets have less established suburban competition? I don't know, the information skulker uses to provide his analysis is not public.

Then skulker says that the capital source is comfortable with the projections. He really means the DDA believes in their own numbers. Above he states that there are multiple sources of capital. One being the CC (city of Detroit) who does not completely believe in the projections because they would not approve a loan for $15 million. which is a drop in the bucket as compared to the budget of over $3Billion. (Not $2 billion)

So finally, is the CC motivated solely by race or favortism for Black owned business as skulker asserts above? The pattern over the years says no. More non-Black owned businesses have gotten more money via the CC than Black owned businesses.

Is skulkers objections to the project on Woodward because its not done by the DDA because its out of the area of influence of the DDA? Is the DDA in competition with other 'soups' for the control of the loans, bonds and other large pools of money? They tried to get Archer (or Archer tried) to extend the DDA's boundaries out to the Grand Boulevard circle. But that power grab was completely rejected. Many of you won't recall that issue or even understand its meanings but its part of the political cycle for control of the money in Detroit.
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Drm
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Username: Drm

Post Number: 836
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.249.238.197
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 11:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your initial point was that the bonds had to be repaid by the city if the development failed, which was and still is false. Unreal.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2680
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.209.188.186
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 11:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's your secret, Drm? How do you keep track of the initial point?
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 187
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 68.252.2.238
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker: Who put the bug up your ass? Why call me a "big roller?" I never claimed to be one(whatever one is) but you say I did. You sure don't know me, and I don't know you. But, I've got a pretty good idea of the extent of your real estate knowledge.

You try to come across as someone who has an inside track on what's going on. If you claim to work for the DDA or DEGC I would not be surprised. No one over there ever made a dime in the real estate business but are sure good as giving other people's money away.

Why don't you tell us what the real order of priority of the debt is? Who are the lenders or other sources of funds? What you laid out is nonsense. Account for entire $160,000,000; bet you can't do it.

One of your statements actually made me snicker out loud. You state there are 2 first mortgages on the same building, one for the hotel and one for the residential. Did I get that right? Not possible unless the building is condominiumized, and if that's the plan, you may be right. However, $7,000,000 probably won't touch it.

Brian's correct. It doesn't pass the common sense test.

And, despite your attempts to qualify one of your statements, the Hilton Garden and the BC are not remotely "similar projects."
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5463
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

<---loves it when 3rdworld gets all pissy
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1542
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 68.61.196.207
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 3:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Skulker: Who put the bug up your ass? Why call me a "big roller?" I never claimed to be one(whatever one is) but you say I did. You sure don't know me, and I don't know you. But, I've got a pretty good idea of the extent of your real estate knowledge.

You try to come across as someone who has an inside track on what's going on. If you claim to work for the DDA or DEGC I would not be surprised. No one over there ever made a dime in the real estate business but are sure good as giving other people's money away.

Why don't you tell us what the real order of priority of the debt is? Who are the lenders or other sources of funds? What you laid out is nonsense. Account for entire $160,000,000; bet you can't do it.

One of your statements actually made me snicker out loud. You state there are 2 first mortgages on the same building, one for the hotel and one for the residential. Did I get that right? Not possible unless the building is condominiumized, and if that's the plan, you may be right. However, $7,000,000 probably won't touch it.

Brian's correct. It doesn't pass the common sense test.

And, despite your attempts to qualify one of your statements, the Hilton Garden and the BC are not remotely "similar projects."




This post actually made me snicker out loud when I read it.
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56packman
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Username: 56packman

Post Number: 40
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 129.9.163.234
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 3:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure, you can tear that schitt down, and on the if-come that a wave of new construction is to occour, you will see an almost 100% caucasian work force of skilled trades, driving their F-250's in from Highland, Strawberry lake, Milford, all of the way-past suburbia country paradise 2 acre lands. Restore a building the likes of which we will never see again, over built to stand for centuries, and you will see tons of laborers, most of whom will come from the immediate surrounding areas. They will work along side the skilled trades guys eventually, as the project progresses, and could learn a trade.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2267
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 70.233.2.205
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 4:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3rdworldcity, citing Brian doesn't pass the common sense test.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5262
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 209.216.150.127
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 4:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

or the credibility test...
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 188
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.220.224.87
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 6:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Merchantgander: You're easily amused. Lucky for you. (Re: my post: "A post so nice, it got posted twice.)

Brian makes more sense than Skulker, and is more credible in my book based on his post on this thread.

As I said before, I hope the BC deal gets done, and I'll be convinced when the 1st condo is sold and the first hotel guest checks in. (Hopefully, before the next Detroit Super Bowl.)
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 189
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.220.224.87
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 7:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Question for Skulker (re: marketing the condos.)

Say I go in to buy one and am told the monthly nut, the condo Association dues (condo assessment for common area maintenance, insurance, share of snow removal etc.)is $1,500 per month. I'll handle that, but...

What's your answer when I ask you what happens if (when) the hotel portion of the condo goes belly up. Who pays the hotel's portion of the Association dues (common area maintenance etc)?

That's a question my condo lender is going to ask as well.

Your answer?
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Eric_c
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Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 611
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.76.202.10
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 7:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"...what happens if (when) the hotel portion of the condo goes belly up."

Awfully sure of this, aren't you?
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 190
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.220.224.87
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 7:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric_c: Not at all. If it ever gets built I hope it succeeds. Chances are, it won't in this market especially if 1200 casino hotel rooms get built. The hotel business (I've been in it) is about as risky a venture as you'll find. Regardless of the location.

Would you buy a condo in that building? You'd have to VERY confident of the hotel's long term financial viability. What say you?
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Eric_c
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Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 612
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.21.62.206
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 7:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wrong guy to ask, that's what say I! I had a condo at Shoreline East, 3rdworld, and truthfully, wouldn't do it again. I made out allright when I sold, but I enjoy home-ownership too much.

I'm of the opinion that the Book-Cadillac project will be entirely successful. There are too many good people who have been working on this one for far too long for it to fail.
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Llyn
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Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1404
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.61.197.206
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 11:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Worst case scenario? The rest of the building becomes condos, too, with retail and special event space on the bottom-most levels.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.60.133.115
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 11:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Llyn, I don't think that would be too bad because we are already getting 1200 rooms from the casinos and hopefully another 200 from the Pick Fort Shelby Hotel. Is the Pick Fort Shelby Project actually going to happen or was that something for the elections?
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Brian
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Username: Brian

Post Number: 3297
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.84.218
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 1:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another point is where is the market analysis? The city hasn't put out a report showing a demand. In fact, the city said that there is reduced demands for hotel rooms when KK reduced the number of casino hotel rooms. They cited less demand. (I beleive the casinos said there was less demand than that.)

Will the Hilton garden survive when the casino rooms are built? They are now existing in an environment before the larger competitors are up and running. The RenCen is too far away and only one hotel. But with the BC, there are four large hotels coming into the market.

Will the DDA release their numbers? Will they reveal how many of the other loans they made to the other hand picked developers in the CBD don't have to pay back the loans if their developments go bankrupt? (Note, I did not say out of business.)
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Digitaldom
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Username: Digitaldom

Post Number: 425
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 69.14.238.105
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 1:51 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree the Book-Cadillac should be kept.. But I ask the forum.. WHY IN THE HELL can they come up with the money to demo a BIG ass building and can't demo the crack houses in Detroit! That's the real question here! A big building is MUCH easier to patrol than a single house. Not seeing or understanding the priorities in the current Detroit Administration. They had enough money to demo the Hudson's building.. They could have used that money to demo houses...

I am all for rebuilding downtown.. I think Book-Cadilac would be a great addition to downtown, but the funds they seem to have in great quatities to demo downtown buildings such as Madison-Lenox would have been better used in the neighborhoods..

I don't understand what people are thinking of on this forum.. It's not like these building will fall down anytime soon.. Why not USE the DEMO money to tear down homes that need to be torn down.. Yes I agree everyone of those skyscraper need to be saved NOW! But the focus has been too much TEAR THAT SHIT DOWN! Well, RAS I agree but I agree TEAR THAT SHIT DOWN IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS! The homes that kids are scared to go by.. Let the skyscrapper rot in my opinion.. They can be saved later.. those building will last hundreds of years, and can be protected much easier than hundreds of vacant homes..

Get on the bus folks, the reason this city is failing is not just because of failing of downtown but also because of the failing of the whole city.. There is not quick fix to this.. Getting downtown back up and running is a key to it, but if you still have vacant houses criminals can hide within Detroit the crime will still increase.

All downtown demolition should stop now.. Unless the building is about to fall down.. Otherwise use that money to Demo houses and put up street lights!

Wrong place to start to the wrecking ball in my opinion.
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Pjazz
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Username: Pjazz

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.212.40.201
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 2:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's alot more involved in tearing down some of these so called crack houses. Some are owned by people who claim to being trying to rehab them. If you actually look around they are rebuilding old neigbhoods and building new homes. This is a huge city and there's neighborhood development going on from the east to the west side.

I understand the doubt in building new hotels, but I think its important not to just look at the current occupancy rates and look at the bigger picture of trying to spur investment and trying to make a downtown that will attract more visitors an d conventions to the city.

And maybe steal some of the hotel beds from the suburbs.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3486
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.34
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 11:09 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3rdwd: You have come on to his forum any number of times asserting that you have built thousands of condos in Florida, own multiple properties in the CBD alone and have hundreds of millions of dollars of real estate experience and that your perspective of the Detroit market is the only real perspective, hence the big roller comment. Just reacting to your comments. If you truly have done projects with hundreds of units, 20 pages of requirements and contingencies is completely run of the mill. Acting like 20 pages is out of the norm on $160 MM projects is disingenuous. Just going by what you have posted here. No bug up my butt.

Yes, the building is be condo-ized and the residential is a seperate transaction, hence the dual first mortgages. A pretty straightforward concept that I did not realize needed to be explained to someone with real estate experience. The residential lender is comfortable that if the hotel folds, it will be picked up shortly by another operator. The condos will have their own entances and elevators and other systems that function independently of the hotel, mitigating many concerns.

Lets think gloabally about the CBD hotel market for a few moments. Every healthy hotel market has a variety of product mix at a variety of price points. The common thread between the Hilton Garden Inn and the Book Cadillac is thet are adressing gaps in that product mix. Other than the Hilton Garden Inn, please name a business class hotel in the CBD that is below the price points charged at the Marriot Ren Cen or the Courtyard? There seems to be the notion held by Brian and 3rdwd that if there is demand for a product, the product will exist ab ovo. This is simply not the case. Developers make money by identifying unmet demands and building product to meet the demand. Like say condos in Florida...Following the logic of Brian and 3wdc, there would be no reason to build condos in Florida, because if there was demand, all the condos needed would already be built.

Demands change, wax and wane. The Hilton Garden Inn and the BC are reacting to market gaps to make money for the developer.

Ask yourself this: Where do you stay in metro Detroit if you want to be in a historic hotel with quality ameneties like say the Knickerbocker in Chicago? Nowhere, because there is none. If you are a major auto supplier and you want to have luxury rooms and a high end meeting space / party space for NAIAS or SAE, where do you go downtown? Nowhere. Say you are a couple getting married and you want to have the wedding in a quality environment where guests can stay and the setting is unique and full service? Where do you have it? Nowhere without having to cobble together the pieces.

Hospitality Valuation Services has run the numbers on the BC flagged as a luxury Westin. Their projections are good enough that a capital source is willing to loan $50 MM to the project subordinated to the $18 MM 108.

A very rough outline of the deal is as follows:
The Hotel portion is roughly $142 MM

Debt /equity by subrordination
108 - $18M
Mortgage - $50M
Dev. Equity - $22 M
DDA Loans - $15 M

Tax credits -
Historic - $15M
Facade - $12M
Brownfield - $6M

And about $4 MM in miscelleaneous state and county grants/tax rebates.

Condo is roughly $18M

Mortgage - $7 M
Equity - $3 M
Detroit Investment Fund loan - $3 M
CDC loan $2 M
Brownfields and historics - $3M

These numbers aren't exact but are what I can piece together from what I know of the deal.
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 840
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.77.161.96
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 11:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker, are private activity bonds still being used to finance, in part, the parking structure?

Where is this hotel deal that Brian is talking about where the City and its taxpayers are picking up the whole tab and giving the project to the developer?
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 191
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.220.224.87
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 1:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker:I have never said or implied my perspective on real estate is the only one. Snide comment, way off base. I have a significant amount of real estate experience, mostly good but obviously a few bad deals. I don't consider myself a "big roller" and have never implied that. Al Taubman is a big roller.

[When I used to represent institutional lenders I drafted at least a 100 commercial loan commitments, some a few pages and several over 20 pages. I used 20 pages in my comment as a plug number since most forumers won't know or care one way or another...20 pages looks like a lot to most folks. You made your point.]

Why would anyone in their right mind permit developer equity to have priority over the DDA "loans" (taxpayer grants?) No wonder everyone on the forum recognizes, by instinct or experience, that if/when the deal fails taxpayers will take a hit.

Who is the residential lender? Is that lender's commitment for a construction loan only or is it convertible into end loans? Separate end loan lenders? [Do condo purchasers have to get their end loans from their own lenders, for those not familiar w/ the jargon.]

Same comments as to priorities of the residential loan. Who lets the equity have all that priority?

Nice little lecture on hotel marketing; I disagree w/ a lot of it and your conclusions, but what I want to say is that you have clearly and knowingly misstated my opinion, and I believe, Brian's.

Your disclosure of the financing sources (although I'd love to see who some of them are)is helpful, and apparently accounts for the required funding.

Llyn: If any part of the building is a condo then the whole building will be a condominium. There will be several residential units and a larger unit encompassing the hotel, and possibly separate units for retail. Each such unit may be individually financed as will apparently be the case here.

It's possible down the road, if not going in, that the hotel rooms themseles will be separate condo units; Several high end hotels in Manhattan are converting rooms to condominium ownership. (Watch out for the assessor if that occurs.)
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Slows
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Username: Slows

Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.246.28.200
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 1:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3WC, not sure why you would bring up end financing for the condo units. The construction lender may be the preferred lender but most people purchasing a condo unit are going to be preapproved from a residential lender. Now whether or not the hotel aspect has a permanent financing commitment would be a good question.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 192
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.220.224.87
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 2:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Slows: First, I love your restaurant.
Food is just great (and I believe I'm in agreement w/ the other forumers on that, maybe a first.)

Re: condo financing. Often a construction lender will convert the loan to individual permanent mortgages for condo purchasers. Mostly, a construction lender will want to be taken out/paid out at completion of construction. The lender may require a take-out from another lender or group of lenders who will agree to pay off the construction loan and make individual loans to condo purchasers. A smart developer in a case like this will line up and even purchase a permanent loan committment(s) to make loans to purchasers. The problem w/ a deal like this is that many lenders won't feel competent (or want to go to the trouble) to underwrite individual loans where there are unusual circumstances such as in this case (such as what adverse financial impact will there be on the Condo Association if the hotel goes under.) Skulker had a pretty reasonable response above. A smart developer will have end lenders for the condo units lined up, ready to approve the individual purchasers.

I'm taking it for granted that the $50MM hotel lender is both the construction and end lender. Maybe I'm wrong. Wonder what the interest rate is. Skulker?

Again, Skulker, everybody, I hope it goes and is successful.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3488
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 2:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Why would anyone in their right mind permit developer equity to have priority over the DDA "loans" (taxpayer grants?) No wonder everyone on the forum recognizes, by instinct or experience, that if/when the deal fails taxpayers will take a hit.




No-one has to "recognize by instinct" that DDA capital is at risk. It has always been up front and known that there will be DDA capital at risk. That has been known for quite some time. IS this something terrible and nefarious and underhanded? Nope. Its what the DDA is CHARTERED to do.

Lets be clear who the "taxpayers" are. The DDA TIF comes from taxes levied on the buildings in the Central Business District. It does not include the general population living in neighborhoods nor their income tax. The decisions on what to use the TIF dollares for are made by a publicly appointed body, in public meetings and through publci resolutions. These investments are per a bi-annual plan submitted to City Council for their approval. Without Council approval, the plan cannot be implemented.

The subordination of the $15 MM in DDA loans is consistent with the enabling legislation and the purpose of DDAs which is to prevent and reverse disinvestment.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(m0dydf45r40qanf43jiaovq3)/doc uments/mcl/pdf/mcl-Act-197-of- 1975.pdf


quote:

125.1651a Legislative findings.
Sec. 1a. The legislature finds all of the following:
(a) That there exists in this state conditions of property value deterioration detrimental to the state economy
and the economic growth of the state and its local units of government.
(b) That government programs are desirable and necessary to eliminate the causes of property value
deterioration thereby benefiting the economic growth of the state.
(c) That it is appropriate to finance these government programs by means available to the state and local
units of government in the state, including tax increment financing.
(d) That tax increment financing is a government financing program that contributes to economic growth
and development by dedicating a portion of the increase in the tax base resulting from economic growth and
development to facilities, structures, or improvements within a development area thereby facilitating
economic growth and development.
(e) That it is necessary for the legislature to exercise its power to legislate tax increment financing as
authorized in this act and in the exercise of this power to mandate the transfer of tax increment revenues by
city, village, township, school district, and county treasurers to authorities created under this act in order to
effectuate the legislative government programs to eliminate property value deterioration and to promote
economic growth.
(f) That halting property value deterioration and promoting economic growth in the state are essential
governmental functions and constitute essential public purposes.
(g) That economic development strengthens the tax base upon which local units of government rely and
that government programs to eliminate property value deterioration benefit local units of government and are
for the use of the local units of government.
(h) That the provisions of this act are enacted to provide a means for local units of government to eliminate
property value deterioration and to promote economic growth in the communities served by those local units
of government.




Providing subordianted loans is a primary and one of the most prevalent uses of DDA funding across the country. The DDA is doing what is what created do when Coleman A Young lobbied for the creation of the DDA legislation in 1974.
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Slows
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Username: Slows

Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.246.28.200
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 2:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks 3WC on the compliment about the restaurant. Much appreciated.

As for the financing, I understand what you meant but I think there are too many variables that don't pertain to the project, especially not knowing which bank is providing the financing, for it to be a very large concern.

I understand your point about the equity but until banks are willing to fully fund Detroit projects I'm not sure if the debt structure can be handled any other way. Again, I know that if the market supported these deals that bank financing wouldn't be an issue however I think the negative perception creates such a skewed perception, especially with the conservative nature of most banking institutions, that the city's involvment and subordinated debt may be the only way to get a deal like this done.
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Eric_c
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Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 613
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.21.62.206
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 2:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...and it will take projects just like this one to prove to future lenders that the market is sustainable.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 193
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.220.224.87
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 5:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker: You must delight in twisting things. OF COURSE I know DDA funds are risk. My question related to why the DDA would subordinate to the EQUITY. I can understand some public policy BS that would permit subordination to other debt, but NOT the equity. There's nothing in the Legislative Findings or the statute that contemplates that as far as I can see. Why don't those nitwits at the DDA just take a piece of the deal if it's such a no-brainer...take equity...and divest it at a profit if the deal works. They lose either way if the project tanks.

You don't have to lecture me about who gets taxed on this deal. I DO. A couple of my properties are in the CBD and I pay TIF taxes (only to see my tax dollars too frequently pissed away I might add.)

TIF dollars are supposed to result in an increase in the tax base per your Leg. Findings above. I thought the developer is getting all kinds of real estate tax breaks on the deal. Are there tax breaks, abatments etc on this deal? Please don't tell me the developer is double dipping. Oh my. Please don't tell me the tex breaks are "only for a few years." Were both equity subordinated loans AND tax breaks contemplated by the legislature? I sure hope not.

Skulker, how many of your tax dollars are in this deal? Do you have a dog in the hunt?
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5464
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 5:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(sigh) Does anyone else remember the time that 3rdworld said, "Skulker:I have never said or implied my perspective on real estate is the only one. Snide comment, way off base."

Oh. Wait. He actually said that at 11:30 THIS FREAKIN' MORNING.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 194
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.220.224.87
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 6:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Itsjeff: Just when and where was I supposed to have said at 11:30 this morning that my real estate perspective in the only one? WJR?

Oh wait. Maybe you read it wrong. Its(sic)ok.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5466
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 6:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You honestly don't see the self-importance and mean-spiritedness in your posts?

Of course you don't. Anyhoo, I was focusing on your chiding Skulker for making a "snide comment," when you've been nothing more than an arrogant blowhard your entire time on this forum.
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Crew
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Username: Crew

Post Number: 825
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 146.9.52.17
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 6:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

....but Jeff loves ya anyway
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1386
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.250.205.35
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 7:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This thread is grippingly fascinating and mind-blowingly boring at the exact same time.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 195
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.220.224.87
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 7:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It'sjeff: I don't think you were focusing (at all.) Period. Neither of your posts make any sense to me.

Dial4hipster:I've been involved in this damn thing, but even I have to vote for "blowingly boring."

Skulker and I would probably both be considered fairly knowledgable about these more arcane real estate matters, but It'sjeff......I don't know. (He probably thinks that makes me an arrogant blowhard.)

There's an old Commander Cody song called "There's no such thing as having too much fun." I think I have.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5467
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 7:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not saying you aren't knowledgable. I'm saying you're arrogant and condescending.
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1387
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.250.205.35
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 8:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3rdworld: you are making the assumption that Itsjeff means "It is Jeff" instead of "the Jeff that belongs to It".
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3491
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 9:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

My question related to why the DDA would subordinate to the EQUITY.



My question is: What equity is going to subordinate to four loans?


quote:

There's nothing in the Legislative Findings or the statute that contemplates that as far as I can see.




The legislation does contemplate or specify any actions in terms of what DDA funds can and cannot be subordinated to. It gives power to the DDA to act as they see needed to effect market stimulation. You know that. Nice try, though.

Yes, the developer is getting a modicum of property tax relief on the project. However, seeing as the property is currently generating zero taxes, the completed project will result in increased taxes. All of nothing or part of something. But again, you know that but instead choose to be confrontational and condescending.


quote:

Were both equity subordinated loans AND tax breaks contemplated by the legislature? I sure hope not.



Hate to break your heart, but yes they were insofar as the legislation contemplates the necessity for drastic interventions to effect meaningful change.
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3298
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.32.116
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 2:00 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

WHY IN THE HELL can they come up with the money to demo a BIG ass building and can't demo the crack houses in Detroit!



Because the DDA gets tax dollars that they city cannot touch. Therefore the DDA can provide loans that don't have to be repaid and use the money to demolish bldgs without asking the CC or mayor if its ok to spend the money.


quote:

Lets think gloabally ...


begins skulkers spin above. He tries to rewrite the teachings of economics of supply and demand.


quote:

Tax credits -
Historic - $15M
Facade - $12M
Brownfield - $6M



How does tax 'credits' pay for an item up front? Credits are supposed to allow someone to get re-paid through a reduction in taxes. Or so what said on this deal three years ago and on other deals in the CBD like the Kales, the Lofts and the CPWR.


quote:

It has always been up front and known that there will be DDA capital at risk.


interesing choice of words. This was also denied when this deal was first mentioned. But if this is the case, the DDA does not generate money it gets tax dollars. Perhaps this is why Detroiters feel that businesses like GM think they can exist in Detroit and ignore the wishes from the residents. Because that is exactly what GM has been doing. GM and the other companies use their leverage with the DDA money and do what they want in the CBD without input from the people of Detroit.

Then skulker has been using the name of Coleman Young to justify his position. Is it really necessary? Can't the BC deal stand on its own?

On to another poster;

quote:

but until banks are willing to fully fund Detroit projects I'm not sure if the debt structure can be handled any other way



has this notion ever been proven? NO. But because of the way the DDA interferes with the market in the CBD, a bank can't commit. The DDA can loan money to projects that will fail and therefore drive other projects into bankruptcy.

Finally, its also interesting that the legislature, the ones skulker calls stupid and other harsh demeaning remarks, is now used as a defense for his proclamations as to why this deal is structured the way it is.

I have yet to see the statement anywhere that this deal is so great that others were foolish not to jump in when they had the chance. Or that the CBD market is so hot that other development deals have to be turned away and only the best can be chosen. Or even, this market analysis is the one of the best of any downtown markets in the county. Why can't folks in Detroit be allowed to invest in this project via stock if this development is supposed to be successful? Is the developer looking forward to making so much money that they would not want to share the wealth even if it meant taking on partners to cover the costs?
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Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 380
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 11:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really don't consider postings from 3rdworldcity or Brian or anybody else that counters Skulker, to be arrogant or condescending.

It seems that whenever anyone disagrees with Skulker, there will be an entire entourage of backup supporters jumping in to kick the person's ass.

Brian, 3rdworldcity and others may very well be as knowledgeable, credible, experienced and capable of dissecting this topic apart and provide their own take regarding what should or should not be done.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1393
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 11:55 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

How does tax 'credits' pay for an item up front? Credits are supposed to allow someone to get re-paid through a reduction in taxes. Or so what said on this deal three years ago and on other deals in the CBD like the Kales, the Lofts and the CPWR.




Because most tax credits can be bought and sold. A company in Ohio can by the right to reduce their taxes from a project in Detroit.

Though people often confuse and misuse terminology, there is a difference between a tax credit and a tax abaitment.
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5470
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 12:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darwinism, please re-read 3rdworld's postings above. Or in any thread since he joined us. He is the epitome of arrogance and there's nothing wrong with calling him on it.
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Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2015
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 12:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darwinism, please don't be bitter and stop posting ... imo what makes these BC discussions so compelling is that much that is reported seems not to pass the sniff test and that there are forumers willing to discuss it. (Many of these discussions end up smelling much worse than the initial reports but that's part of the fun, eh?) It is a rare opportunity indeed to discuss in detail a major Detroit development project while it is happening with others who are either knowledgable or at least interested in this stuff instead a just readin it in the paper shaking yer head and muttering to yourself.

Darwinism, I think a lot of what you see as Skulker's entourage ganging up is part and parcel of the sorta thinking reflected in Eric_c's earlier post
I'm of the opinion that the Book-Cadillac project will be entirely successful. There are too many good people who have been working on this one for far too long for it to fail.

Well that's nice and all that but comeon that post begs so many questions... but anyway ...

Darwinism, I believe you may be one of the disillusioned FOBC supporters (I may be wrong about that) who at one time mighta been allied with those who you now consider adversaries (via what transpired with the whole Statler/ml demos and the historic-preservation/hitlist nastiness). There is nothing wrong with becoming disillusioned, it represents growth and deeper understanding don't fight it embrace it.

Yay Detroit, but Yay the real Detroit, scar tissue and tumors AND WHAT causes them are part of it, swaggering staggering Detroit. It is a terrible wonderful place. It is a complicated place there are virtually never clear good guys and bad guys, right and wrong, or even yes and no answers to this sorta stuff. (imo that's why it is so compelling.)

(Message edited by rustic on February 03, 2006)
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5471
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 12:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, if you'll read my earlier post, I am leery of the BC proposal, too. I'm not "defending" skulker. I am taking 3rdworld to task for his obnoxious, sarcastic and superior attitude.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 381
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 12:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rustic: I agree that it is healthy to have such debate and such disagreements, because a development of such magnitude is indeed compelling. I am glad that there are not one, not two, but multiple people who are chiming in with their own perspectives. However, it is rather mean-spirited to call certain people names while allowing others to speak freely. How can Brian and 3rdworldcity's comments be considered arrogant and condescending, whereas Skulker's are not ? There just seems to be somewhat of a double-standard here and strong bias for certain individuals against others. And that is where it becomes unhealthy.

Itsjeff: If you are going to call 3rdworldcity or Brian out for being arrogant and condescending, then you should also call Skulker out as well. As far as I can tell from the tone of their postings, they are all just fine. Or they could also all be considered very condescending and arrogant. Not only 3rdworldcity.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5472
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 12:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker lays it on pretty thick, but being arrogant doesn't define him, like it does 3rdworld. Skulker contributes to the forum in other areas, shows up at FSC, provides information and advice, etc. ALL 3rdworld does is complain and criticize. Nothing else. You were saying earlier that we should respect 3rdworld's take on the deal. But he never offered one. All he did was criticize the deal and insult the people behind it.
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Eric_c
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Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 621
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.76.202.10
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 1:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Darwinism, I think a lot of what you see as Skulker's entourage ganging up is part and parcel of the sorta thinking reflected in Eric_c's earlier post
'I'm of the opinion that the Book-Cadillac project will be entirely successful. There are too many good people who have been working on this one for far too long for it to fail.'

Well that's nice and all that but comeon that post begs so many questions... but anyway ... "

-Rustic

I'm very glad to know I'm part of Skulker's "entourage", Rustic. I'm also glad you're astute enough to realize that it "begs questions". The fact of the matter is, I'm a car salesman, not a property developer or banker. My time is spent managing my own business and I don't generally have the opportunity to research the ins and outs of major development deals. As a result, I rely on other people for information, then run it through my own filter.

Having said that, I will support any and all efforts to rehabilitate and reuse Detroit's defining icons, because the history and architecture of the city is what I love. I don't care how it happens or who works on it, just as long as it happens. Based on what I've learned, the potential benefits far outweigh the risks, and the people who can see beyond today know that.

As a Detroit resident-homeowner, I'll be the first to tell you that our tax dollars are wasted everyday in this town. The very fact that the City itself is Detroit's largest employer demonstrates that the mayor and city council have no idea what a free market is. Using creative financing methods and tax incentives to bring one of our gems back from the dead and back to the tax rolls is no different in my mind than the city employing citizens simply for the sake of employment.

Whatever...back to work.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5473
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 2:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

<---wishes Eric C would shut his arrogant ass up, too
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Eric_c
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Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 622
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.76.202.10
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 2:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't make me love you now, hear?!
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 844
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.253.101.92
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 2:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darwinism, you haven't been here long enough to see how Brian twists logic and ignores facts regarding this project. Everytime Skulker or someone else with knowledge explains something to him, Brian twists the words around and posts some ridiculous fantasy.

For example, it's been explained to Brian many times how tax credits can be converted to their present cash value, however, if you read his message above, he still questions it.

For another matter, he doesn't understand how private activity bonds work (that is ok, most people don't, it is a rather complicated and obscure subject). Brian and I had a very long discussion regarding this about 2.5 years ago where I spent many hours trying to explain in detail how the city taxpayers would not be on the hook. Again, Brian chose to disregard the facts.

Financing large projects like this is complicated but Skulker and others have taken the time to share their knowledge with anyone who asks. If his tone seems to be condescending, it's probably because he's tired of repeating the same thing over and over for the past 3 years.

While skepticism is necessary, and discussion regarding this topic is healthy, Brian has lost all credibility on this subject. I'm surprised that Skulker even bothers to acknowledge him anymore. Anyone who wants to legitimately discuss this project would be better off not to cite Brian if they want to be taken seriously.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3492
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 2:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Therefore the DDA can provide loans that don't have to be repaid and use the money to demolish bldgs without asking the CC or mayor if its ok to spend the money.



Absolute Bullshit and you know it Brian. You know full well the City Council approves the annual DDA plan that details investments like the Book Cadillac. No you are just outright lying.


quote:

This was also denied when this deal was first mentioned.


Actually quite to contrary. My posts have always clearly described the capital risk for the DDA loan. Brian may beconfusing his inability to undersatnd that had the EZ bonds been used, the City would have no obligation for their repayment.


quote:

But because of the way the DDA interferes with the market in the CBD, a bank can't commit. The DDA can loan money to projects that will fail and therefore drive other projects into bankruptcy.


Actually, what the DDA is exactly what it was created to do, which is to provide extra fiancing for challenged projects to get off the ground and to reverse market trends.


quote:

I have yet to see the statement anywhere that this deal is so great that others were foolish not to jump in when they had the chance.




And you wont see that statement anywhere. It is a challenging project. One that requires financial assistance to reach fruition. The DDA is providing financial assistance tot do that to reverse market decay. Not a hard concept to follow.

Brian also puts the cart before the horse. Developers go to banks fisrt, find all the capital they can and then, if and only if, they are unable to secure adequate financing to they go to the DDA for assistance. IF a project cannot show they are unable to secure all the necessary financing, the DDA doesn't touch it. In essense the project needs to prove they are unable to secure all the fiancing. The assertion that was made that the DDA steps in front of banks and prevents them from lending is completely absurd.

PS Darwinism: I have been ignoring your posts mostly, but I gotta say something here. Yes. I came down hard on you on the first thread you started because you came across as a completely arrogant and condescending prick yourself. And it wasn't just me. Many otheres read the same, felt the same and reacted the same as I did. Of course you have gone back many times and edited those posts to remove any of the offending language so it appears others were overreacting. Nice trick eh? Grow a fucking spine and get over it.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2017
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 2:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric_c, okay fine, so you really don't care about market viability or how much $$$ the city risks for this or certain other development deals. Fine. Further for some reason you are apparently equating working on this project with "good people" and that these "good people" are for some reason gonna succeed (while there are lotsa projects run by lotsa other "good people" that don't succeed). OKAY fine. This is precisely my point to Darwinism, that there is more than simply fiscally rational or even commonsense rational support behind this development project. Among the questions this sorta thinking begs is why? Why THIS project? WHY this building? But anyway exploring these questions wasn't the point of my post to Darwin', nor is it the point of this post to you ...

(Btw I didn't say you were part of skulker's entourage, I said that what Darwin' SEES as skulkers entourage was ALSO reflected in your post ... perhaps that slipped past your filter.)

Eric_c, oh yeah one other thing, hey we all have day jobs (or at least most of us) AND you (as is the case for all of us on this thread) have taken the time to post yer thoughts -- playing the I'm just a humble car salesman card is disingenuous. Gimme a break.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 196
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.220.224.87
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 2:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker: "What equity is going to subordinate to 4 loans?" My answer: Every borrower in every deal I'v ever been in (lots), and especially a borrower who can't come up w/ equity equalling the traditional 20% downstroke. That question tells me a lot about you. Even so, you have enough knowledge to be involved in some way w/ the deal, and I do hope if it goes forward it's successful. (As to the tax abatement issue, I had no idea what the deal is, but I'm not surprised. If this is going to be such an economically successful deal why can't it be conventionally financed? I know the answer, but maybe the others don't.)

Dial4hipster: you're correct. I was being snide. Must be catching.

Itsjeff: My biggest fan. You say I'm arrogant, and a lot of other bad things. I disagree, after much reflection, about being what you say I am. However, as to "arrogant" you may be right. (But, if so, it's justifiable.)
















(You didn't choke on that did you?)
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5475
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 3:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

However, as to "arrogant" you may be right. (But, if so, it's justifiable.)

:-)
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2276
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.248.3.161
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 3:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Then skulker has been using the name of Coleman Young to justify his position. Is it really necessary? Can't the BC deal stand on its own?"

...Coming from the same person that somehow finds a way to negatively inject Archer and Hendrix into a range of topics.

Brian, disingenuous and dishonest once again.
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2033
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 63.149.5.130
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 3:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Metro - Weird once again! hahaha
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Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 382
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 3:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

PS Darwinism: I have been ignoring your posts mostly, but I gotta say something here. Yes. I came down hard on you on the first thread you started because you came across as a completely arrogant and condescending prick yourself. And it wasn't just me. Many otheres read the same, felt the same and reacted the same as I did. Of course you have gone back many times and edited those posts to remove any of the offending language so it appears others were overreacting. Nice trick eh? Grow a fucking spine and get over it.




Arrogant and condescending prick ? I don't need to grow a fucking spine, cockface. I am walking upright just fine. I guess this is the Skulker that some are so fond of. He can be a fucking asswipe with anybody, and that is all fine and dandy but people like 3rdworldcity and Brian are condescending and deserved to be insulted.
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Eric_c
Member
Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 626
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.76.202.10
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"This is precisely my point to Darwinism, that there is more than simply fiscally rational or even commonsense rational support behind this development project. Among the questions this sorta thinking begs is why? Why THIS project? WHY this building? But anyway exploring these questions wasn't the point of my post to Darwin', nor is it the point of this post to you ..."

Then what is your point, Rustic? You're babbling.

I happen to believe that the Book-Cadillac project is THE defining historic property left in the CBD and will be the catalyst for continuing redevelopment of similarly historic, albeit smaller projects.

Incidently, when I "took the time to post my thoughts", the "job card" was "played" simply to illustrate that I've got my own business to think about and don't have time to pour through page after page of financials on the B-C - shit other people are PAID to think about. Maybe that slipped by your filter.

(Message edited by Eric C. on February 03, 2006)
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2277
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.248.3.161
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Ilovedetroit"...weird, dishonesty, disingenuous, once again.

What gender, race, occupation/income, political affiliation, sexual preference, residence, event attendance, etc. are you claiming today? What unwanted sexual advances are you going to make today (still trying to "meet" people from the forum)?
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Dabirch
Member
Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1356
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric_c -- You've been on here for over 2 years, learn to use the "quote" format...

Meet ya for brunch at Misha's this weekend?
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Dialh4hipster
Member
Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1390
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.250.205.35
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cockface! I love it.
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Eric_c
Member
Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 627
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.21.62.206
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've been on here for a lot longer than that! Perhaps my number of posts demonstrates the amount of time I actually have to chat online.

As far as Misha's - no way! It's been closed for years! Condescending prick! :-)
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5477
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Daburch you conceited ass! I'll meet you for brunch in HELL!
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Dabirch
Member
Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1359
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Itsjeff - Will you be selling Amway?

Eric_c - how could you have been here "a lot longer" than "over 2 years".

That makes no sense.

As for DialH - you love cockface...who knew?
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Dialh4hipster
Member
Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1393
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.250.205.35
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well I love the expression being used in this thread, that's for damn sure! We'll leave any other interpretations out of this discussion.

I like how Darwinism is all scholarly and fatherly in the beginning, but when he gets cornered rational thought goes out the window and out come the insults.
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Eric_c
Member
Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 628
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.21.62.206
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was made aware of this site while talking to a young man standing next to the Hudson's hole back around spring or summer of 1999. Shortly thereafter, I joined.

Back then, I was "Eric C.", not "Eric_c" - that was before Lowell changed whatever he changed and everything started anew.

Perhaps that will help it make sense. ;)
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5478
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Christ-on-a-bun that was a boring story, Eric_c.

I mean... damn.
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Eric_c
Member
Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 629
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.76.202.10
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What the fuck is this?! Pick on Eric day?!

I'll have you know I was responding to the condescending prick, not the Amway selling asshole! :-)
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6662
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Hudson' hole" - "Cock face"

Starting to sound like a low grade porno to me.
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Eric_c
Member
Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 630
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.21.62.206
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Low grade somethin'!
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Dabirch
Member
Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1361
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric_c --

Actually my point was whenever you joined (as long as it was over 2 years ago) is "over two years" ago -- so definitionally it could not be a lot longer than OVER 2 years ago (see the word "over" implies "more than", so 6 years ago is "over 2 years" ago). Regardless, use the damn quote format.
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Eric_c
Member
Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 631
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.76.202.10
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

?????????????????????????????? ????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I've been on here for a lot longer than that!"

What part of this statement don't you understand?! Are you drunk?!

Fuck yo' quotes, Dabirch!! FUCK YO' QUOTES!!
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3493
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Skulker: "What equity is going to subordinate to 4 loans?" My answer: Every borrower in every deal I'v ever been in (lots), and especially a borrower who can't come up w/ equity equalling the traditional 20% downstroke.




So you know lots of folks with $22 million who are willing to place the cash as 15% equity on a first in last out basis? I'd like to meet those people. They don't operate in markets like Detroit or other central cities on historic rehab projects. Auto dealerships in Washetenaw County or subdivisions in Las Vegas, yeah. Hotel deals in a rust belt central city. Not that many.
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Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2019
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

umm eric_c, the point I am making is exactly what you are saying. Each of your subsequent posts reinforces it more strongly. You
believe that the Book-Cadillac project is THE defining historic property left in the CBD and will be the catalyst for continuing redevelopment of similarly historic, albeit smaller projects.
You apparently think it is a really big deal and its importance in getting accomplished apparently trumps any fiscally (or any other) rational concerns. You apparently are happy trusting the powers-that-be to accomplish this project. Okay fine. That is precisely the point I was making to Darwinism -- that there are others who share your view and on this forum and THEY take any discussion about sniff tests, fiscal responsibility or even commonsense re the BC as some kinda assault and respond agressively. It is these sorta replies that I think Darwinsm views as skulkers entourage. jeez was that so hard? Was I that unclear in my earlier posts?

eric_c, I guess I misread your post re your job. sorry.
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Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 383
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dialh: I should buy you a beer or a latte sometime if opportunity arises.

Anyway, it is healthy and beneficial for this DetroitYes community to indulge in good discussion/debate such as the Election thread, such as the Madison hotel demo, such as the recent Donovan building demo, such as the Book-Cadillac redevelopment and etc. However, as polite and as courteous and as scholarly/fatherly and as mellow as one can be, that should not give another any right to be a plugged-up asshole by name-calling. It is not just about me, obviously this thread contained a number of other posters who are insulted. The bottom line is clear - I don't tolerate rude bastards trying to fuck around with name-calling. It is uncalled for. You will not find me insulting others first, because that is simply not how I am.
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5479
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, man, we need some waders for this thread.
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3494
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

However, as polite and as courteous and as scholarly/fatherly and as mellow as one can be....

You will not find me insulting others first, because that is simply not how I am.....




That would have been a good way to introduce yourself to this forum Darwinism, but it not how you chose to do it.

You came in with an attitude that Detroiters were parochial and and in need of your words of wisdom proceeded to somewhat politley but very clearly insult many people.

Now you seem unable to put together thoughtful posts on these topics except to attack my posts and trying to negate them by whining that I once called you a name * gasp *. Hardly "good discussion/debate".

Stop crying. Start contributing.
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Eric_c
Member
Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 632
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.76.202.10
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rustic:

1.) Yes, you were that unclear. You rambled, and I lost you.

2.) I'm glad you understand (if not agree with ) my take - we spend money on far less valuable causes everyday.

3.) I'm glad that you recognize my meager comments weren't intended to in anyway be interpreted as "aggressive".

4.) "umm eric_c," and "jeez was that so hard?" have no place in civilized discussion. I don't at all deal well with shitty attitudes from people I've never even met.

5.) Thanks for the appology re the the job.

Let's agree to make sure we meet and have a beer before we get shitty with one another from here on out. I'm at ecriteser@hotmail.com.

-Eric
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Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 385
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

That would have been a good way to introduce yourself to this forum Darwinism, but it not how you chose to do it.




For the record, I have posted in a number of other threads prior to the one that couldn't seem to exit your small mind.


quote:

You came in with an attitude that Detroiters were parochial and and in need of your words of wisdom proceeded to somewhat politley but very clearly insult many people.




Many people ? Who ? I don't remember insulting 'many' people, to be outright honest. I wouldn't have thought that of all people, you, would even need to pull quantity onto your side.


quote:

Now you seem unable to put together thoughtful posts on these topics except to attack my posts and trying to negate them by whining that I once called you a name * gasp *. Hardly "good discussion/debate".




What the heck are you trying to say ? Attack your posts ? I was merely defending 3rdworldcity's comments/POVs ..... and you consider that an attack ? You must sure have a serious inferiority complex issue.


quote:

Stop crying. Start contributing.




Gotta say the same to you in this regards. No reason to dig up old shit, because I don't keep track of every single post that I make on Internet forums, let the old shit fertilize the ground. Get over it and stop holding grudges, it ain't healthy.
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Dabirch
Member
Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1363
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Let's agree to make sure we meet and have a beer before we get shitty with one another from here on out. I'm at ecriteser@hotmail.com.




Take it from somebody who was on the wrong side of eric_c's wrath prior to meeting him -- he becomes much more tolerable after a couple of beers. I'd take him up on the offer.
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5480
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.203.125
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 5:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We need to get WilliamX back so he can deny being contentious. We'd have like a bullshit trifecta.
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Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2020
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 7:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

eric_c, re. yer post:

(1) sorry, it can be difficult to convey conversational speaking to written posts
(2) Hey, I'm glad you shared your take re the BC. IMO it represents a significant train of thought re the BC renovation.
(3) np
(4) re the shitty attitude you started it (with yer dismissive "whatever"), so nyah nyah. :P but anyway if the shittiest this forum ever gets is our recent exchange it would be a much improved place indeed
(5) hey np

Sincerely I didn't mean anything nasty to you re my initial post to Darwinism. In fact when it comes to the cranks on this forum I think I'm generally one of the most polite.

Re the beer, perhaps next time I'm in town ...
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Eric_c
Member
Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 634
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.21.62.206
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 7:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

See how easy that was, Dabirch? :-)
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Merchantgander
Member
Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1553
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 9:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bump
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Llyn
Member
Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1411
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.61.197.206
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 1:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sorry if I've ever said anything to ever offend anyone. Please accept my humblest apologies and forgive my bumbling attempts at suggesting a possible position which I realize may or may not be correct in nearly every aspect. If there's anything I can ever do to make everyone feel more comfortable with me in some small way, please don't mention it because I just feel I won't be able to live up to even the small expectations I and others place on myself. Thank you so much for allowing me to offer my completely unqualified thoughts to you, and please know that I recognize the high qualifications that are brought to this forum. Once again, thank you all for your kindness and generosity.
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Merchantgander
Member
Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1558
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 1:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think I have a tear in my eye. Anyone have any Puffs. :-(
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6682
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 1:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nope - but I'm sure some people will offer you something to rub your face on.
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Merchantgander
Member
Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1560
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 1:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That wasn't very nice you hurt my feelings. I think I'm too sensitive for this website.
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Reetz12
Member
Username: Reetz12

Post Number: 26
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 216.144.213.130
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 2:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Kwame is having his third? Fourth? ground breaking for this building coming up!
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3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 199
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.214.190.1
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 7:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Llyn: Wow. You have expressed my very own thoughts so much better than I myself could have.
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Burnsie
Member
Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 388
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 35.12.26.123
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 2:07 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess it was pretty naive of me to notice that this thread had recent additions to it, and to hope that meant additional news on the building. Instead, it's the same old bitching back and forth. I can't say that I've never indulged in that on this site, but it amazes me how some people have the energy and time to keep it up endlessly.
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Jasoncw
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Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 114
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 148.61.248.170
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 10:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^ I agree, whenever this thread is bumped I look at it thinking there is some news, but there isn't.

There haven't been any on-topic posts in this thread for a week.

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