Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Greedy hospitals plan to expand to outer suburbs Previous Next
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2291
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.131
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 6:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A high-stakes fight for patients and their cash is brewing amid the rolling hills and comfortable middle-class homes of northern Oakland County.

Competing health systems are eyeing major projects in hopes of wooing patients who live in the increasingly affluent and populous region that hugs the edge of Metro Detroit.

They're looking to build crisp new medical offices, one-stop health care centers and, in one case, a sprawling, full-service hospital.

"People out there all have jobs and they all have insurance," said Dr. Clare Johnson, president of the Oakland County Medical Society.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060122/B IZ/601220379/1001
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The_aram
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Username: The_aram

Post Number: 4645
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.213.175.233
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 10:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

this is new.

people bitching about new hospitals and medical facilities just because they're proposed to be in northern Oakland County.

the anti-suburb bullshit around here really cracks me up.
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Knocturnal
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Username: Knocturnal

Post Number: 78
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 24.176.50.206
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 10:47 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most "greedy" hospitals are non-profit so it any stays within the organization/health system. Would you rather have some individual who is well insured and more likely to pay their bill or have some junkie run out of hospital the minute an i.v. is placed so they can use it recreationally? The difference between outer ring and inner city.
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Drm
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Username: Drm

Post Number: 791
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.252.125.166
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aram, if the new facilities come at the expense of existing facilities in Detroit and the inner-ring suburbs, then I think it's understandable that people would "bitch" about new hospitals and medical facilities.

I also think there's a good argument that this is another case of people abandoning existing infrastructure, only to have it wastefully duplicated elsewhere. Everytime something new is built, keep in mind that it's not being built because we have an exploding area population. Instead, it's normally built to replace something that already exists.

With the amount of money that we as a society spend on healthcare, I think the last thing we should be wasting money on is duplicating existing infrastructure.

Knocturnal, I'd rather have quality medical care available to everyone, junkies or not. Junkies probably need it worse than I do and people will continue to be junkies whether you like it or not. Just be glad that it isn't you.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 723
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can see where "bitching" is acceptable. When Henry Ford begins to say things like their main campus is to massive for the amount of patients it serves and they start pondering the though of closing parts of it for the sake of the community. Then we will all start "bitching" about all of the hospitals that have LEFT the city. Then Lowell will have yet another ruin to add to his list.
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Rberlin
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Username: Rberlin

Post Number: 320
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.255.76.255
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 1:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't it amazing how much money non-profit hospitals make?
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Ddmoore54
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Username: Ddmoore54

Post Number: 251
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.242.220.249
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 1:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Umm, didn't any of you critics read the article. None of the mentioned hospital systems even operate in the city of Detroit.

The way the healthcare system works in this country is that you overcharge the paying in order to subsidize the free care you offer the poor. It blows me away how people on this board don't seem to understand why a company, be it a auto manufacturer or hospital system, needs to remain profitable. Imgaine if you opened up a shop and were required to provide free merchandise to any person who came in and couldn't pay. Now imagine you are giving away hundreds of ten thousand dollar shirts a month. If these "greedy" hospitals didn't pander to their paying customers then they would be forced to close their doors and the poor would get nothing. It's like calling Robin Hood "greedy" for dealing with the wealthy.

Now, if anything you should be angry that the DMC, Henry Ford, or St. Johns isn't involved. Beaumont is a for profit system that hugely benefits from the fact that its location in Royal Oak means that you aren't getting a lot of indigants walking in off the street. Meanwhile the others deal with this on a minutely basis and are constantly fighting for their survival.
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Romanized
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Username: Romanized

Post Number: 176
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 69.245.75.239
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 2:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That.s right, these folks don't need medical care either, along with roads and things of that sort.

Let me ask, how the hell is this going to hurt the existing hospitals? Why do you need to retread the ridiculous charter school arguements in this case.
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Broken_main
Member
Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 730
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 3:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay Dd....explain it to us non-knowing people how this works...and please explain to us what will happen when the regular patients,that usually come from the suburbs, stop coming to our hospitals because it is so much more convenient to go to the new hospital. what then, will happen to our hospitals??
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Ro_resident
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Username: Ro_resident

Post Number: 137
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.126.140
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 3:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Broken-main, to a degree that is already happening:

DMC operates Huron Valley-Sinai Hospital in Commerce Twp as well as the Orthopaedic Specialty Hospital in Madison Heights.

Henry Ford was given the green light to move some of their beds to their clinic in West Bloomfield.

The certificate of need process is supposed to protect the underserved areas throughout the state.

How can the hospitals keep people coming into the city? Provide better service. I've had physical therapy at Providence and HFHS's Center for Athletic Medicine. I would go back to the CAM in a heartbeat.
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Ddmoore54
Member
Username: Ddmoore54

Post Number: 252
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 68.43.233.205
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 5:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The major hospital systems in Detroit won't be packing up and moving north of 8 mile anytime soon. They have too much infrastructure to just write it off and rebuild. It's not like you are going to sell HF hospital to another company or turn it into lofts. In fact, HFHS just shifted many of their offices to One New Center. Or when they moved their administration and research to 1 Ford Place and restored the existing structure. Does it make sense for them to do this if they wanted to get out?

The types of procedures going on in the burbs are mostly the more bread and butter kind of stuff, although technology is making it easier with the explosion of outpatient surgery and proceedures. However, these OC hospitals are not tertiary care, they are not Level 1 trauma centers (Club Beau excepted), nor do they have the facilities in place to handle such cases. If you are in need of serious or advanced medical care then you will be sent downtown to one of the main hospitals. Also, you need to keep in mind that these are teaching institutions which benefit from the diverse pathology that can only be learned in an urban setting.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1486
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 68.42.168.234
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 5:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great posts Ddmoore54, I work for one of the large health systems in detroit in internal audit and you are correct when you stated that that so many people on this board don't have a clue about how Hospitals have to operate.
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Broken_main
Member
Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 739
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 6:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well...see, now you are educating us. which is always good!!
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Brian
Member
Username: Brian

Post Number: 3278
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.37.84.189
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 6:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This issue has nothing to do with Detroit. Its because of the threat of competition in the burbs from the proposed new facilities that existing facilities do not want to spend the money to complete. They want to retain their monopoly. Beaumont included. They don't want cash rich Henry Ford or DMC coming out to Oakland or Macomb County. Both DMC and Henru Ford will stay at their city based locations. But they will expand as they have already done. They will continue to takeover the smaller systems. Its based on how the healthcare industry is regulated in the state and country.

How can DMC or Henry Ford be greedy if they see sick folks and seek to locate facilities where those sick folks live? They did the same in Detroit. But when they do it in the burbs, they become greedy.
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Ddmoore54
Member
Username: Ddmoore54

Post Number: 253
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 68.43.233.205
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 7:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed Brian.
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 795
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.249.237.241
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 10:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ddmoore, drop the condescending tone. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them ignorant.

Some of us understand economics, and we understand why each individual corporation would take the actions it does -- it's the context in which they are forced to take these actions that I disagree with.
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3061
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 10:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ltorivia485, you've gone off the deep-end, today. First you were mocking a suburban school district looking to upgrade their older schools, and now this? Even a Detroit booster like myself is totally lossed on your attitude today.
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Ddmoore54
Member
Username: Ddmoore54

Post Number: 255
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 68.43.233.205
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 10:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drm,
I'm sorry, but I find the attitude of thinking anytime something happens in the suburbs it is at the expense of the city to be ignorant when it is based on pure emotion rather than the facts and situation at hand.

If a person can disagree in an informed manner that doesn't make them ignorant in the least bit. However, disagreeing with me doesn't give a person a free pass to be ignorant.

The context in which they are forced to take these actions was never being debated, but the actions within that context.
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 797
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.199.158
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 1:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ddmoore, after rereading my original message, I find there is no way you can possibly be referring to me, since my message was not based on emotion, rather it was based on the facts and situation at hand.

In addition, the context in which actions are taken is inseparable from those actions. It is ignorant to "debate" one without debating the other.

I am not disputing the fact that each hospital is making the appropriate business decision for itself. Nowhere in my message do I see anything where that is so much as implied. As a matter of fact, there is really nothing to "debate" here.

At any rate, I do appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge and understanding with us, and I hope that you continue to do so in the future.
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Alexei289
Member
Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1004
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 2:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anyone that takes a crash course in economics knows that a corporation will always push the envelope where there is an envelope to be pushed. They will not go outside their means to do it without just cause for longterm return, and will supply anywhere there is a market. So, if the state allows them to built healthcare facilities out there... and they can be profitable out there... they will build out there, period.

The fact that development (PERIOD) is allowed to go on out there is sickeningly redundant infastructure and is wasting all of our money... but you cant blame the hospitals for trying to stay profitable.
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Metrodetguy
Member
Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2204
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.221.78.58
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 7:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Cash rich DMC"...another "good one" Brian.
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Ddmoore54
Member
Username: Ddmoore54

Post Number: 257
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.242.220.249
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 8:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drm, when discussing pure emotion I was referring to the title of this thread and Ltorivia and addressed your comments for what seemed to me to be a defense of that attitude.
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Llyn
Member
Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1371
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.61.197.206
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 10:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Cash rich DMC"

Brian, you've really got to start researching things before you throw them out as facts. Really.
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Llyn
Member
Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1372
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.61.197.206
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 10:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...but, I agree with your comments on suburban monopoly. There's every reason why Detroit hospitals should be allowed to expand to more affluent areas, and it's called...

uninsured patients.

Hosptials must treat these people, and where do so many of them live? Detroit. The hospitals get some re-imbursement from Medicare, but it's insufficient to cover the costs.

You want to shut suburban hospitals up and make them stop complaining about Detroit hospitals and other hospitals outside their area opening on *their turf*? Then here's what we do. We take the total cost of unisured patients, divide them area-wide or statewide proportionately among hospitals based on how many paying patients they have, and let everyone shoulder the responsibility.

Suburban hospitals are getting a free ride they don't deserve. I have less than zero sympathy for them. If they're so very very concerned about healthcare, they should take some of their cash and see to it that the less affluent have healthcare, too. There's nothing inherently anti-suburb about that - it's how things are and should be.

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