Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Mall in Detroit? Previous Next
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Ericdfan
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Username: Ericdfan

Post Number: 83
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.41.117.60
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you guys think Detroit is ready for a mall?
The only place that I could see it being built is in Downtown of close to and it it would almost certainly spell doom for Northland.
Would it generate enuf business?

I was Dallas a few years ago and the have a beautiful mall downtown called the Galleria. We would definately have to build something spectacular..Northland is outdated and the facade updates that they put in place were toio litte, too late if you ask me. Kinda the same thing for Livonia mall, but its just ugly..Fairlane is nice on the inside, but most of the outside is drab. Ppl like to shop in attractive surrondings. IMHO, the detroit area is pretty oversatuarted as it is tho.. I mean if you look at the Westland/Livonia area, at on point they had 4 Malls in 10 minutes of each other. Then you have southland in taylor and Fairlane in Dearborn. With so many choices in the "safer" and "nicer" suburbs I doubt that a mall would survive in Detroit presently. Just would like to hear your thoughts...
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5417
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Malls are out. I doubt there'll ever be another built in Michigan. "Lifestyle centers" are in.
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Dag
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Username: Dag

Post Number: 161
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.241.254.67
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Insiteful, yet just a tad premature within the development of downtown methinks.
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2337
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SO ummmm...what's the diffrence besides the names?

They both suck...
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Kova
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Username: Kova

Post Number: 175
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 141.213.184.173
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

are lifestyle centers those like new urbanism things?

(Message edited by KOVA on January 24, 2006)
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Mbr
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Username: Mbr

Post Number: 27
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 69.246.43.231
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lets fill up the retail spaces we have downtown then we can start talking about a mall.
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Ericdfan
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Username: Ericdfan

Post Number: 84
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.41.117.60
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is lifestyle center like a strip mall?

Strip malls don't work that well in michigan if you ask me...I know I don't like walking outside when its cold, but the do get enuf business in most cases and i guess thats all that matters in the end...
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Ericdfan
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Username: Ericdfan

Post Number: 85
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.41.117.60
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mbr,

I can agree with that..
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L_b_patterson
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Username: L_b_patterson

Post Number: 281
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.229.198.58
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i was downtown cleveland and they have a beautiful mall called the galleria. The food court court is the busiest thing. No single business has operated there continuously since the mall's opening. Major tennants include the Hungarian History Musuem, and Lynn's chotchkie boutique. The entire area is devoid of any pedestrian activity. Don't forget to have your parking validated.
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Ericdfan
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Username: Ericdfan

Post Number: 86
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.41.117.60
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

cleveland sucks
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5420
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice mall, tho.
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Dag
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Username: Dag

Post Number: 163
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.241.254.67
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LB, is this the mall that is connected to the Hyatt east of the Public Square and Tower terminal?
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Tomoh
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Username: Tomoh

Post Number: 63
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.205.183
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ericdfan, I used to live in Dallas and the Galleria, if you're talking about the large mall with the indoor skating rink, was a few miles north of downtown in a suburban area (albeit a suburban area with a lot of highrises).

A lifestyle center is like a privately developed mixed-use outdoor mall, with "main streets" with stores that are built facing the sidewalk, but you don't park right in front of the store. The one in Novi was supposed to be a lifestyle center. The closer they get to New Urbanism, the better they are, but I think mostly they stay too similar to conventional shopping centers. They stay too small and are thus small islands surrounded by a sea of parking (like a mall) and the residential portion is too small or too separate. The main problem, I think, is that they are often built in worthless suburban sprawl locations rather than as infill in urban environments where people from the existing surrounding neighborhoods can just walk on in.

As for a mall downtown, there's already a significant retail component in the RenCen, dunno if you could call it a shopping mall, but it's not overly successful as a shopping destination. I think arcades in some buildings downtown would be cool, although really those kinds of tenants could and should fill in the existing empty storefronts. I sure wouldn't be opposed to a private developer wanting to construct a new mall downtown but the reality in many American cities today is that the city governments are heavily subsidizing and paying for anchor department stores to be in downtown malls.

But maybe the city should make a concerted effort in bringing a few dozen chain stores onto a single drag downtown to create an outdoor shopping street. Washington Blvd for instance. Some parking lot could be developed into a covered arcade to house even more stores in a small area. I'm not sure how many stores the city would have to sign onto this to have it compete with regional malls as a shopping destination.
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Wmuchris
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Username: Wmuchris

Post Number: 145
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.51.137.10
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't exactly say that Cleveland sucks.

Now i'm not trying to make a big deal about it, but. How would you feel if somebody at Clevelandyes.com started throwing out blanket statements about Detroit?

I know we are used to it, but I was pretty sure that many of the threads on this forum end up with us defending our city from the verbal and written stones thrown by our suburban residents and journalists.

As Detroiters we should refrain from rippin on other cities, especially those in our region. Cause we have all heard what other people have to say about us
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 908
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't the Wintergarden the start of a mall?
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Super_d
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Username: Super_d

Post Number: 616
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A downtown mall is the most prosaic and unimaginitive idea for a downtown space__ Malls were created from the mind-set of suburbia plutocrates, not for pedestrianism or urbanism.

super d(motordetroit)
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2197
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 12.75.24.48
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Village of Rochester Hills is a "Lifestyle Center". Just a bunch of stores on a fake street surrounded by parking lots. I drove through once and didn't stop, not my cup of tea.

x

If it was a comprehensive mixed-use development with residential and commercial added to the retail and restaurants it might be more appealing. Still, it seems like they're trying to replicate a faint quasi-urban environment for people who'd rather live in the suburbs. The way Royal Oak's downtown has developed looks like another attempt to do urban-lite. We can mock them, and we probably should :-), but another way to look at it is that there is a growing latent desire for a more urban experience. That trend is good for cities like Detroit.
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Ericdfan
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Username: Ericdfan

Post Number: 87
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.41.117.60
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ah...now I know what you are talking about with a lifestyle center..yeah they reall need one of those in an urban area where ppl could just want into...isn't there one in Troy or something?

I agree that washington blvd would be a great shopping street for downtown..they havedone such a nice job of making that street look absoluetly phenonminal.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 750
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it is time for a mall. But as I stated on other threads whoever developes the site would definitely have to incorporate housing, business and retail.

good sites for something like this??? Hudsons site, along the riverfront(east of the Ren Cen, west of JLA)
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Ericdfan
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Username: Ericdfan

Post Number: 88
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.41.117.60
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 12:13 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just don't see where else a mall would fit in in the actual city right now..thats really the only reason why I mentioned downtown..

and cleveland is really not that bad. Browns Stadium is really nice and the rock and roll hall of fame is really cool if your into that.

I know this a lil off topic, but I took a road trip to my dads house in Kentucky this past month. I drove straight down 75 and none of the Ohio downtowns are attractive as Detroit...Cinn. prolly comes the closest..
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Tomoh
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Username: Tomoh

Post Number: 64
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.205.183
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 12:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Track75: Totally, there is so much pent up demand for urban living in Metro Detroit that isn't being satisfied and thus we see the lofts being built in Royal Oak, which to me is close to what downtowns should be except that downtown R.O. is still quite small. But the thing to take away from this is the trend, the fraction of the five million people living in the suburbs who'd rather live in an urban environment. It's a great amount of people potential. Greater Downtown Detroit has a limited number of products for that crowd today but the variety of the products is increasing as the "pioneers" develop these neighborhoods, attracting elements that'll make them more desireable to a greater number of people. There's still going to be people who prefer the R.O. experience or something even more stale, but at least they'll potentially be supporters of light rail on Woodward!
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Dag
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Username: Dag

Post Number: 164
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.241.254.67
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 12:17 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

super d.

I agree to a large extent but disagree to a small degree. Some urban malls when properly designed can act as regional magnets that allow for people who would normally not be likely to venture downtown to have a reason. However, having a traditional subruban mall would not be a goal and would take away from the urban landscape. Urban malls should be limited in scope and targeted in use.

I would right more and in more detail but I am slightly intoxicated.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 752
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 12:19 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Build it up, promote it, support it...and they will come.
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Tomoh
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Username: Tomoh

Post Number: 65
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.205.183
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 12:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ericdfan, of the downtowns in Ohio, Cleveland and Cinci's are by far the largest in terms of tall buildings. Like Detroit they used to be much more populous cities. Dayton and Toledo's downtowns are smaller than Windsor's.
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Superduperman
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Username: Superduperman

Post Number: 58
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.246.17.152
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 12:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what about making Hart Plaza similar to The Underground in Atlanta,its only used about 31/2 months out of the year,Detroit enclose the open spaces downstairs and lease them out
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Naturalsister
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Username: Naturalsister

Post Number: 447
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.42.169.65
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The GM Wintergarden is a micro-mall. Hines Management can't seem to beg anyone into the place. It only has 6 stores and 2 restaurants.

Long way to go. The Riverfront Shops could do well - if they doubled the amount of retail and HEAVILY promoted it. There is a severe lack of advertising for the stores that are there now.

From the street (Jefferson) you can barely tell there is any shopping inside. Riverfront Shops boasts 60+ establishments, Millender included.

I would guess around 15% of the business is done through outsiders visiting the Ren Cen. Hotel guests help quite a bit. The GM employess seem to go to work, then go home to their malls, strip malls, and 'lifestyle centers'.

Here's a tidbit from an insider - Hines and the Marriot don't get along. Disaster.

later - naturalsister
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1010
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:47 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anyone been to the 34th street mall in Denver??

Imagine summerset stretched out over a mile.. and every so often there is a side building, with passages inside that open up to a 3 story outdoor mall... with escelators and such almost like a courtyard with surrounding shops... ancored by 2 good sized department stores.. but on a much more urban smaller scale. This allows people to be more enclosed from the wind and snow but can keep them in an urban setting and gives a spot for department stores to operate in a natural setting for them.. while not obliterating it from the rest of the neighborhood.


Malls in urban settings are nothing new.. Its not that big of a deal in most modern American cities... I dont know why it is here.. Maybe because we have never experianced one here.
THey are the same thing just radically different design.... kind of like a neighborhood vs a subdivision.
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Everyman
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Username: Everyman

Post Number: 30
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 24.136.14.239
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 3:38 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Google the "Circle Centre" mall in Indy. It is right downtown by the city center and is well integrated into the urban environment.
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Jerome81
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Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 902
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.142.86.133
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have my vision. And it is similar to the "lifestyle center" mentioned here....except it isn't an artificial one.

The key to it all is that it CANNOT be done piecemeal. I believe the reason malls have been and remain popular is because people like they can go to ONE location and find all the shopping they're possibly looking for, chain store or otherwise. Opening a random Nordstrom in Detroit or an American Eagle here and an Old Navy there just won't work. People would rather go to Somerset where they can have all those stores plus 100 others, all in one spot. THAT is why Somerset is popular.

Say we take Washington Blvd. Turn the whole street into a "mall". All at once bring in big box retailers, restaurants, bars, and a big ass cineplex. Combine the retail with residential on upper floors when only ground level stores are used. This would create the kind of destination draw that would really be able to compete with any mall. The kicker is that people can still get everything they possibly want, but on top of that can get something that no mall can ever compete with....an urban environment.

This is what makes Michigan Ave great. Or Union Square in San Francisco. All the stores and restaurants and hotels and residential you could possibly imagine, but in an urban setting. Where walking the streets is part of the fun. Where you can sit on the patio outside a cafe and enjoy a meal while you people watch.

The best "lifestyle center" I've ever seen is Santana Row here in San Jose. Its a little small, and a bit generic (as it was created out of nothing). But the ambiance is spot on. Great stores. Unique restaurants. Cars on the "street". Upper level residential. My vision would take something like this and translate it to a street or set of streets in Detroit.

Anything less just won't have the draw to bring people to shop and spend money there. It is truly all or nothing.

Santana Row: http://www.santanarow.com/
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 132
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:19 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the primary purpose for investors of an urban mall was to (shamelessly) make money, how should they protect their investment after it becomes overrun with teenagers and the real spenders stay away? Couldn't happen again?

Eventually, any leases that aren't yet breached will go unrented and the mall goes bust.

That's problemo numero uno.
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1354
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.250.205.35
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shamelessly making money. Shocking.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 3662
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 207.74.110.184
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 8:38 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mall in Detroit HAHHAAHA!!!!! Not in 200 years. So far most of the shopping malls are in suburbantopia. Two had closed down ( Wonderland Mall in Hitlerland Livonia and Tel-Twelve Mall in Africantown Heights Southfield). In the past 50 years, suburbantopian shopping malls has destroyed 75% of the mom and pop traditional businesses not only in Detroit, but in other parts in the suburbs. Other suburbantopians tried to compete with shopping malls by building psuedo downtowns, but it's not enough to lure more families. What we the comsumer must do not to shop in any of those suburbantopian shopping malls until the weekend and lean our support to local mom and pop business. Let's give them a chance.
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Wmuchris
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Username: Wmuchris

Post Number: 147
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.58.36.2
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Uh oh.... I'm agreeing with Danny.

Maybe I really should have called in sick today.
:-)
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Islandman
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Username: Islandman

Post Number: 45
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 68.42.171.59
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trapper's Alley was the closest thing downtown Detroit had to a mall since Hudson's closed. It was actually great during the mid to late 80's, but look what eventually happened to it.
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Genesyxx
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Username: Genesyxx

Post Number: 417
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 209.69.165.10
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think downtown Detroit could sustain a mall if it was placed in the right area. If this construction boom continues within the next 10-20 years, then the area will have to request a mall. Every major city has at least 1 mall downtown. I think Detroit can do the same.

BTW, crews are clearcutting trees/weeds from the Gateway Park (or whatever they're calling it) at State Fairgrounds. Any new news on when they're going to start building?
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1194
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 12:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There used to be a name for these "lifestyle centers". For some reason, "neighborhood" rings a bell....
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Evelethcdenver
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Username: Evelethcdenver

Post Number: 90
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 71.211.141.143
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The 16th Street mall in Denver is alright. It is really neat during the day from all the office people down there. The Hard Rock Cafe and several other bars make it fun at night. There are a few hotels for visitors from out of town. But other than that, there are lots of homeless people and punk kids down there starting fights and stuff like that. It was not built a mall, but several store fronts and coffee shops take up the first floors of the buildings. No auto traffic, just mall busses that shuttle peds down 16th Street.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2220
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 71.144.118.89
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Remember Kilpatrick's "plan" to restore the Statler and have an outlet mall there?
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Detroitduo
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Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 464
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 194.138.39.52
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can proudly say I did ALL of my Christmas shopping downtown Detroit. It was amazingly stress free with the lack of crowds and fighting for a parking spot. I just walked everywhere and had a GREAT time! Even had Chicken Gumbo at the HAPPY CREAM!!!! YUM!
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 3195
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 65.222.10.3
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

many retailers pull away at building a mall due to fear of high theft rates. Eastland has some of the worst in the area so many retailers use that as an example.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1195
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, not every major city has a mall downtown. Those that do, the malls are typically dead or dying. Really, there isn't any quicker way to kill a downtown than by putting a mall in the middle of it. Ask Cleveland how well their two downtown malls are doing these days....
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Rust
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Username: Rust

Post Number: 79
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 64.118.136.130
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 2:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't forsee nor do I want to see a traditional suburburn mall in downtown Detroit.

I can envision a small collection of retailers connected via an arcade as being viable and desirable.

A large inclosed mall doesn't create the foot traffic and urban atmosphere that makes a city interesting and attractive.
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Mike
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Username: Mike

Post Number: 568
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 66.227.165.194
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtown already has a mall... its called the RenCen!

Restaurants, shops, and a food court.

What else do you need?

If a major national retailer was going to open up shop in the D. It would most likely be in the RenCen.

The RenCen in turn would have to expand its hours, and lure other shops in there.

No one major retailer is going to go in alone. You need flagships.

I say if you have ten shops, national retailers, then the Downtown Detroit area would have enough to lure people and be a so called shoping destination.

Boutique shops are were the charm is, but no one is flocking to downtown or will recognize shoping there until there are those cookie cutter national retailers there
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Mplsryan
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Username: Mplsryan

Post Number: 124
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.26.164.215
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm suprised Detroit hasn't had a mall proposed since the 'arcade' shops of the 20s and 30s. Mpls has 4 malls including the sister Galleria to Dallas' on its southern edge. Lots of high end stuff, Saks, Marshall Field's, Neiman Marcus, Tiffany's etc. They struggle but they add a lot of life. Of course they are all connected by Skyways on Nicollet Mall- a street turned shopping arcade in the 1970s.
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Ericdfan
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Username: Ericdfan

Post Number: 89
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.41.117.60
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am very much in support of mom and pop business and even other retailers like payless shoes and Radio Shack, but I think a Mall is a real possiblity in the next 10-15 years if the upward trend continues...eventually ppl will demand one..I think we are the only large city in the Us that does not have one..
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J32885
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Username: J32885

Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.114.53.1
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If Detroit ever gets a mall, I hope they make it similar to Navy Pier in Chicago where it's a mix amusement park/retail/fine dining.
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Cushkid
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Username: Cushkid

Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 136.2.1.103
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What if the Heimloch bulding was made into a arcade similar to Nickels arcade in AA
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 206.80.246.224
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is true that many major cities have downtown malls, but a large portion of them are failing or have failed--many were built toward the end of the mall "boom" to compete with sucessful suburban developments and within 5 or 10 years many find themselves in the position of the Cleveland Galleria. The ones that tend to work are in very large downtowns that have massive amounts of both downtown workers and downtown dwellers. Eaton Center in Toronto works for this reason. Detroit would be best to stick with smaller scale 'arcades' like the Renaissance Center, or in it's day, New Center One. Someone said earlier that malls are dead--which is sort of an over-simplifaction. The mall craze was followed by the big box power centers and now there is a flurry of new urbanist-lite "lifestyle centers". Like malls before them, these are trends--and like all trends they come and go in favor. The enclosed suburban mall is "mature"--that is, there are plenty of them to serve the populous, so you don't see many new ones built. That forces retailers looking for growth to seek alternative developments--hence we get lifestyle centers for the time being. I have seen some great ones in the south--but in the midwest they are useful for only about 2/3 of the year. Fountain Walk in Novi hasn't exactly set the world on fire, has it? It's actually the so-called "dead concept" of Twelve Oaks that's being expanded instead. Village of Rochester Hills seems to be working, and Taubman is bringing some seriously heavy-hitters into The Mall at Partridge Creek. That being said, Taubman still builds traditional enclosed malls in high-growth areas of the country such as the Mall at Milennia in Orlando. As for now, Detroit should be happy it doesn't have an 80s or 90s era mall downtown--it would just be another problem to fix.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6634
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's annex Harper Woods. Just like that Eastland is a Detroit mall.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1210
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eaton Centre also has a subway station directly underneath it.


quote:

I have seen some great ones in the south--but in the midwest they are useful for only about 2/3 of the year.




Wrong. Ever been to Chicago? Boston? New York? Toronto? Lifestyle centers are nothing more than an attempt to replicate neighborhoods, by people who only know how to build subdivisions and strip malls. The cities I mention here are all thriving, cold-weather cities, with real neighborhoods where people walk around 12 months of the year--not theme park Disney replications.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 206.80.246.224
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not sure of your point Danindc--what I was saying was the purpose-built 'lifestyle centers' don't work for me, and others, when it's cold and windy--that's in comparison to an enclosed regional mall. Those cities you mention are all great with thriving neighborhoods, enclosed malls, strip plazas, etc--all co-existing. They are also different from Detroit when you look at the numbers of people living and working downtown. And you are correct--the Dundas TTC subway station is underneath the Eaton Center in Toronto--and it's also connected to PATH, which is really a huge underground mall that connects all of the major buildings in downtown T.O.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1213
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 3:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, do you use your neighborhood only 2/3 of the year?
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Tetsua
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Username: Tetsua

Post Number: 502
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 69.246.5.196
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 4:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's the status of "The Shops at Gateway Park"? I drove by the site (8 and Woodward) the other day and saw there was machinery pushing around some big mounds of dirt. Is this thing actually going forward, or is this something unrelated?
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Hooha
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Username: Hooha

Post Number: 78
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.81.52.188
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 4:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The funny thing about fountain walk is that it's just a big strip mall. The only place where there's retail is on the "outside," right next to the parking lot. Everything on the inside is more nightlife stuff, like the movie theater, Hooters, Lucky's, the bowling alley, the teenage hookah lounge, etc.

Malls can work in urban areas, there just has to be demand for it. I've been in plenty of malls on Michigan Ave. in Chicago that do brisk business, but that's because of office workers and people living downtown. That said, a mall would be a bad idea for the D right now. But since you asked...

I'd put a mall on the site of Tiger Stadium. There's plenty of room there for a good-sized mall and adjacent lots for sale for parking garages. Since it's right next to a highway, it'd be in and out shopping for suburban tourists who are afraid to set foot in Detroit and it would be something pretty to look at on the drive into downtown. Also, if you could have a good chunk of the stores with street entrances, it could help give a boost to the surrounding area and create some sidewalk traffic.

And finally, I once visited a mall in Birmingham, Alabama called the "Galleria." How many Gallerias are there? Is it a chain, or just the result of uncreative developers?
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.33.56.156
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 5:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

major cities with successful retail centers downtown---DC., Baltimore, Philadelphia, NYC (of course), Boston, Chicago, San Fran, Seattle, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh. I am sure there are more. For successful retail, residents willing to shop there are needed---Detroit is simply not ready for that step yet. But it looks like it could happen in the future.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 166
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 5:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

North of the border Toronto and Ottawa have successful downtown malls. However, both cities have a large number of downtown workers and residents (with reasonably high disposable incomes).

Unfortunately, Detroit isn't there just yet.
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 39
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.33.56.156
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 5:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

every major Canadian city has successful retail in the centre.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1430
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.212.39.25
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 11:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jtl, good point about annexing Eastland Mall. This would be the easiest way for Detroit to get a mall.

The Pointe Plaza concept of shopping is something that might work in Detroit. For those unfamiliar with this plaza, it's like a parking garage with retail on the ground floor with a walkway enclosed in glass. It is also connected to St. John Hospital and so it gets a good deal of foot traffic from hospital employees.

What's nice about this shopping complex is that it's like a strip mall. With all of the stores on the ground level and on the outer walls of the parking garage, you can get in and out of any store quite quickly. The glass-covered walkway is wide and heated so that you can come in from the elements and take off your coat.

What's also nice about this shopping complex is that it has a good mixture of stores, somewhat like a mall. Nothing like a Marshall Field's, but you have a drug store(Rite-Aid), a wine store, a Bo Rics/Fantastic Sam's, a Blockbuster, a Barnes and Noble, and three restaurants: a greek restaurant, a Buddy's Pizza, and pastry store and restaurant that sells muffins, bread, and soup and sandwiches(can't think of the name).

Given that St. John Hospital is the anchor of the complex, a shopping complex like this might work well attached to one of the Detroit Medical Center hospitals, Henry Ford Hospital, or Sinai-Grace Hospital. The traffic flow from hospital employees and visitors could help maintain many of the stores during daytime hours.
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Quickdrawmcgraw
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Username: Quickdrawmcgraw

Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 63.77.247.130
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 12:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll be happy if Detroit lands a Target store downtown for all of those new residents (including me!)
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1224
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 12:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

What's also nice about this shopping complex is that it has a good mixture of stores, somewhat like a mall. Nothing like a Marshall Field's, but you have a drug store(Rite-Aid), a wine store, a Bo Rics/Fantastic Sam's, a Blockbuster, a Barnes and Noble, and three restaurants: a greek restaurant, a Buddy's Pizza, and pastry store and restaurant that sells muffins, bread, and soup and sandwiches(can't think of the name).




Not to be an ass, but in some circles, that qualifies as a neighborhood. Building retail in Detroit is difficult enough--let's not make this more difficult than it really is by trying to find the next fantastic "concept" that we can "market" to "consumers".
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1432
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 68.255.237.155
Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 8:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danindc, I don't follow you. I was just telling everyone what kind of stores are in this shopping complex. There used to be a Sam Goody but they went out of business.

I just think that the types of stores give this complex a good mix, especially the sit-down restaurants. There are few if any of these kinds of shopping complexes in the city. Therefore, it would be nice to have some similar to this one, which is anchored by a business or medical complex.

How things are set up at Compuware's HQ is very similar, but it's downtown. We need things like this in other areas of Detroit.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1231
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 2:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Such a retail corridor need not be a "complex", which implies that the whole shebang is owned and operated by one entity. To me, a "complex" is something that is marketed, just like a subdivision is marketed for residential purposes. It's a difference between a real, organic neighborhood, and a commodity posturing as one.

I think the appeal of this particular place to you seems to be that it contains "basic needs" kind of establishments, intended to serve a small geographic area. This is the same intent as a traditional neighborhood. Basically, this entails small retail establishments fronting on the street, and largely patronized by those who live within a 10 minute walk--drastically different from a shopping mall.
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Spitcoff
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Username: Spitcoff

Post Number: 67
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 69.242.221.186
Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 3:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What about a vertical mall like the watertown in Chicago. Put it where the old Hudson building was.
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Eric_c
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Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 639
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.220.224.157
Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 4:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, ladies...the Sam Goody at Pointe Plaza (Moross and Mack) was replaced by Bath and Body works!
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Bagman
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Username: Bagman

Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.252.125.69
Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 10:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't see any National retailer looking to open in Downtown anytime soon. I know CVS is new, and I would bet that if we were able to see their lease we would understand why they are here, but I know Borders took 3 years before they would sign a lease in Compuware Building and they opened what I call a Borderette - no cafe, no real music and DVD section. What we have is a chicken and Egg problem...The big retailers will not return until there are enough people to support them, the people will not return until they have something to return to.......
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Dave
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Username: Dave

Post Number: 91
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.244.189.225
Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 2:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Galleria in Cleveland was opened in 1890 and is the oldest indoor mall in the country. It is not a chain. Yes Jag, the Hyatt's lobby opens off it. It is an arcade like Trapper's Alley was and doesn't have national chains. I love it (especially the 1890 bar where you can buy cognac or single malt scotch and an expensive cigar. Laphroig is only 7 or 8 bucks). I also like downtown Cleveland. I envy their theatre district. The only problem with the city is the difficulty finding a liquor store downtown. It must be the only city outside the muslim world that doesn't have liquor stores all over the place. I've only found one in the downtown and they close at 6.
dave
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2023
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 2:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dave, I think you are muddling up two different places in Cleveland: the arcade and galleria at erieview. The Arcade is the old 1890s mall, it had been fixed up a bit in the early 90's and then was really fixed up more recently with the addition of the Hyatt(?) hotel. It is a very nice space, tho imo it was nicer before it went as upscale as it is now esp as a public space to cut through as one walked around downtown Cleveland. FWIW, there is ANOTHER arcade mall a block away from "The Arcade" in downtown Cleveland too .... it usedta be run down I haven't been thoru it in several years I have no idea of it's current state. The Galleria in Cleveland is kitty corner from the RaRHoFaM and is kinda like Detroit's New Center One but newer and, I think, smaller. It is in a fairly isolated location and generally not very sucessful.
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Dave
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Username: Dave

Post Number: 92
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.244.189.225
Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 2:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OOPs! Sorry Rustic, you're totally right. My memory has gone with my eyes, ears, and other critical organs. I was talking about the Arcade. I was there and in the one a block away (don't remember the name) in mid January. Bought pizza in one restaurant there , and I think Chinese in another.
dave
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 198
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.214.190.1
Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 4:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fastcarsfreedom: You beat me to it. Of all the urban malls I've visited, including several "Gallerias," Toronto has the best. The Eaton Centre is great (multi-story hi-rise), but my favorite is the PATH. For those who have never visited, it's a several block square UNDERGROUND mall accessible from most major office buildings, hotels etc. Tenants sell just about anything anyone could want, and there are several fresh food stores, many restaurants, 2 Waldenbooks, one on each end, drugstores, meat markets etc. Great place.

The larger hotels such as the Sheraton Centre also have extensive retail.

Al Taubman made a heroic attempt to create a mall in downtown Detroit, in, I believe, the late '70s. It was to be on the Kern and Hudson's blocks and he even bought the Cadilac Tower to tear down: He was goin to tear it down to provide the last remaining space he needed. However, even though he had tremendous clout w/ the major retailers, none supported the idea and the deal died. Not enough housing/people downtown.

Subsequently, Taubman and Fisher in an attempt to revitalize housing in the downtown area, built Riverfront Apartments, a project that had little if any possibility of becoming economically feasible. CAY called it "Al and Max's gift to the City."
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1234
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 4:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The concept of a shopping mall did not exist in 1890 when Cleveland's Arcade was built. There were two smaller arcades across Euclid Avenue--the Colonial Arcade and the Euclid Arcade.

I'm still trying to ascertain why anyone thinks a mall in downtown Detroit would do anything but die on the vine. Seriously, the 1980s are over.
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Quickdrawmcgraw
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Username: Quickdrawmcgraw

Post Number: 43
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 63.77.247.130
Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 6:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't wanna mall, wanna destination!!!

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