Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 An outsiders POV of the D during SBXL Previous Next
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Mudmarker
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Username: Mudmarker

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 69.246.42.41
Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 10:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The other day, a man from ATL working here for the superbowl pulled me aside and asked me. "what up with all the racial segregation in Detroit" and we talked for a while about it. I said there really isn't too much hatin going on but there is definitely more segregation that other major cities I have been to. He said he loved the city itself and saw alot of potential but hated being here because of the division. Hope this isn't too heavy for this forum, but.....what up with that anyway D?
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2397
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 10:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yo ask them suburbanites...

I'm just being real...
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1383
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 10:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Or the call em out coalition...
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Gumby
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Username: Gumby

Post Number: 823
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 204.39.224.122
Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 11:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ummm. He was from Atlanta and he was questioning our racial segregation. Man it is worse here than I thought.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 839
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lookin' for a story, that's all

ps the nastiest column I've seen so far, surpassing the crabby writer from Colorado, was in the Atlanta paper.

(Message edited by lilpup on January 31, 2006)
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 9845
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 1:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hell, I didn't find out I was white until I moved here. If that wasn't enough, nobody gave me the rule book until after I bought a house in Detroit. I was totally oblivious to the fact that white people are suppose to buy homes in some place called Livonia.
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Jenay
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Username: Jenay

Post Number: 133
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.41.224.19
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 1:30 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The riots were the start of the downward spiral, as far as segregation goes.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3006
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 1:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit is not segregated. All the white people moved out and the blacks upgraded to outer neighborhoods. Black people live in a hell of a lot of suburbs too.

What's the point?
jjaba.
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Bagman
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Username: Bagman

Post Number: 61
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.252.70.146
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit has been historicly self segregated. Up untill the Exodus, The jews live in their neighborhood, blacks in theirs, Catholics, greeks, WASPS, City Workers, Mexicians, on and on...Then sunburban living happened and we stopped sorting ourselves by race and started sorting by class.Except for the Mexicans, as they had built themselves a nice little part of the city....that's how I see it........I could go on but I think it's pretty simple, as for what the media makes of it, that's another story
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3007
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jewish Detroiters move every generation. Starting from the Eastside near the Detroit River, they've moved regularly up the Eastside, then across the Westside, into the NW suburbs.

Jews sell to whomever so black people have followed them. They call a neighborhood "played out" and off they go. In their wake, are many Jewish institutions taken over by the newcomers.

This is operant for over 200 yrs. of Jewish residence in Detroit.

jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor.
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Erikd
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Username: Erikd

Post Number: 519
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.214.106
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 4:47 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The suggestion that Detroit is more segregated than other cities is a widely touted "fact" with lots of statistics to back it up, but the reality is that the segregation in Detroit isn't much different than it is in other cities.

NY is often pointed to as a model of integration, but the reality is very different.

In NY, Harlem is over 90% black, and the Upper East Side is over 90% white. In Detroit, Livonia is over 90% white and Highland Park is over 90% black.

The only difference between segregation in Detroit and segregation in NY (or any other city) is the artifical lines drawn around the neighborhoods. Harlem and the Upper East Side are both lumped into the "NY" census count, and this makes NY seem to be integrated. Highland Park and Livonia are separated as individual cities, and this makes (metro) Detroit appear to be very segregated.

The reality of segregation in Detroit isn't much different than it is in most other cities, however the politics of segregation is very different in Detroit than it is in other cities. In NY, Chicago, or LA, the segregated areas are all part of one large government unit, and as a result, there is an effort made to cooperate for the good of all. In Detroit, the segregated areas are mostly broken up into many politically independant fiefdoms, with no common governmental unit acting on behalf of the entire region.

This is the main reason why segregation is so much more of an issue in Detroit than it is in most other places. This is also the reason why metro Detroit has the worst regional transportation in the developed world. This is also the reason why Michigan constantly ranks at the bottom of getting our tax dollars back from Washington. This is also the reason why talented individuals and businesses don't want to locate here.

Detroit's problem with segregation has less to do with the reality of segregation itself, and more to do with the inability to get all of these different areas to work together, in spite of the differences, towards common goals that will help everybody in the region.
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Chow
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Username: Chow

Post Number: 249
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.171.71
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 5:05 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenay, the riots were not the start of our racial problems but rather an effect of them.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3127
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 5:18 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really can't believe a guy from Atlanta (of all places) asked you that. Actually, I find it even more odd that in just a day or two you can make and educated guess about the social mixings (or lack there of) of any particular city.

(Message edited by lmichigan on February 01, 2006)
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3483
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 11:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The riots were the start of the downward spiral, as far as segregation goes.





Go tell that to Ossian Sweet's ghost. The riots were a reaction TO not a cause of segreation.
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Atl_runner
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Username: Atl_runner

Post Number: 1803
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.209.118.72
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 11:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit IS exponentially more segregated than Atlanta. Hard to determine that from Lansing though.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1208
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 11:49 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Erikd, your claim is disingenuous. You're conveniently ignoring that other large cities have segregated suburbs, too. The difference is that Detroit is something like 82% black, and its suburbs are 95% white. If that's not segregated, I don't know what is. No other metropolitan area in the U.S. even comes close to that kind of disparity.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6626
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gotta agree with Dan.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1384
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Statements by Jjaba, Erikd, Jenay, and Bagman earlier in this thread are very ignorant of our real history.

Two books are the best start to really understanding us:

The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Postwar Detroit
by Thomas J. Sugrue
http://www.pupress.princeton.e du/titles/8029.html

And

Detroit Divided
by Reynolds Farley, Sheldon Danziger, & Harry J. Holzer
http://www.biblio.com/isbn/087 1542811.html

The fact is there are quantitative ways of measuring segregation. And Detroit tops the list (btw - I believe NY and Chicago are right behind us). This method is explained in DD.

In Origins, the history of what led up to the riots is laid out.

I'd write more, but I'm too busy right now. But I don't beleive you can intelligently discuss segregation in Detriot until you learn at least part of what is in those books....no matter how long you've lived here.
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Mudmarker
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Username: Mudmarker

Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 69.246.42.41
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 3:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmichigan: He has been here for a few months, and to the rest, the discussion was on a smaller scale than percentages of cities. White and black people don't hang out together, we have our bars they have theirs for the most part. I am white he was black if that makes any difference. Is it a bigger culture gap?
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English
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Username: English

Post Number: 484
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 5:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of my sisterfriends from Florida said the same thing to me when she came up to visit a few years ago. "What is with blacks and whites in this town? You all seem to hate each other." And I must admit, I got tongue-tied for a second there, because what can you say to refute that without being dishonest?

Is it a bigger culture gap?

Yes.

I've explained this before on the forum. When I want to do "white" things (pub crawls, science fiction and fantasy cons) I hang out with my white and other nonblack friends. But I have a "black" social life too, that involves church, my sorority, family, and friends.

Ne'er the two shall meet. My white friends make fun of my occasional lapse into black English, and my black friends swear that I'm the only sistah into the Sci-Fi channel enough to wear the t-shirts and organize cons (not true, but there you have it). But for some reason, race doesn't have the primacy in other places that it does here. We often conflate culture with race in this region, and most people in all groups concerned aren't as interested in crossing boundaries outside of places we are forced to co-exist (work and school).

Another point. In the South, historically, blacks and whites lived side by side, from the very beginning of our nation's history. So although there was segregation, hatred, and mistrust, each knew the other's ways. Later waves of immigration affected this region disproportionately less until recently.

Here in the North, you didn't have the same level of mixing. Until the late 19th/early 20th century, you didn't have large numbers of African Americans living in urban areas of the North. You also had a larger number of European "ethnic" immigrants who in the process of becoming "white Americans" within 1-2 generations had to absorb all of the national mythology, including its views on race. They had no reason to ally themselves with a group that was looked down upon, and they had no reason to ask about the whys and wherefores. Immigrants of color since them have followed the same well-trodden path.

Add to that a group of people--African Americans--who were only a generation removed from race-based slavery, who fled the South not only for economic opportunity but to get away from racial oppression, who like most Americans of the period weren't terribly discerning about groups outside of their own perceptions and stereotypes, who had zero reason to trust most whites and every reason to hate and fear them... and you had the ticking time bombs of our 20th century Northern cities.

My grandfather always said the riot of '67 was NOTHING compared to the riot of '43, which he lived through as a young man around the age I am now. He talked about that event as sheer terror. He and my grandmother also said that whites began leaving the city in the 1950s.

Race just works differently in the north than the south, I guess. I wouldn't say that one is better than the other, but I would just like to note the reverse migration of blacks from the north to the south... and the migration of *everybody* out of our beloved city. It is a problem that demands an answer.

(Message edited by English on February 01, 2006)
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Mkgirrrl
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Username: Mkgirrrl

Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 68.42.169.141
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 6:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What I want to know is what evidence of segregation this guy saw? Where had he been and who was he with?
I don't find this city so outrageously segregated. Ever been to DC?
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1217
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 6:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

See my post above. I'd have to say that DC is more racially mixed than Detroit--no contest.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8103
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.228.67.124
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 6:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

D_S, the city is plenty segregated as well. Though I would say it is more classism than racism. There are many folks in the city (just ask ya'lls boy KK 'bout his campaign) who hate (whether for personal gain or for stupidity) the burbs as much as the burbs hate the city (LBP).
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2399
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 7:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I mean I agree GOAT don't get me wrong. All you have to do is drive out into suburbia and you can feel the attitudes that the people that live out that way have (both minority and non minority), however when you look at the bulk of the people in question guess who they are?

I am never one to paint all white folks as racist. No even in this case. In this region here, most people seem to have a sense of entitlement on both sides (one side more than the other), where they always want something but don't feel that they have to pay for it (ie. "Why can't Detroit be more like Chicago?", or "Detroit needs to do something to clean up it's act but I don't want my city/township/village to have to pay any of our tax dollars to do so even though my home is being paid for through subsidies from other people's tax dollars"), yanno?
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Detroits_own
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Username: Detroits_own

Post Number: 40
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 4.229.120.138
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 7:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

umm Milwaukee anybody? black people are basically stuffed in one side of the city (the north side) and white people are everywhere else.
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Jenay
Member
Username: Jenay

Post Number: 136
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.41.224.19
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 8:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What I meant to say about the riots didn't come out right, but thanks for clarifying. My understanding was yes, there were racial tensions at this time, and I agree that the riots were a result of this tension, but was this not largely the main event which caused the predominantly white population to decline drastically in the city and the black population to increase? I'm talking segregation by city border lines.

This is an interesting graphic showing percentage change of the black population from 1950-1970.



I wasn't even born yet at this time, so I'm trying to learn about all that I can.

(Message edited by Jenay on February 01, 2006)
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2409
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 8:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenay if you want to you can go to the Main library and pull up the articles on micro film from that hellish week, from the News and the Freep.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1385
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 8:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I wasn't even born yet at this time, so I'm trying to learn about all that I can.




Then please get those two books. If you are really interested, it may only be a start, but it is a better start than any number of newspaper articles can give you.
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2410
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 8:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree as well JS. I was trying to remember the names of those books( not thinking that you had just posted them lol).
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Pam
Member
Username: Pam

Post Number: 63
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 67.107.47.65
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 9:25 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting article on the 1943 riot:

http://www.metrotimes.com/edit orial/story.asp?id=5041

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