Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2006 » L Brooks and Mass Transit « Previous Next »
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Gogo
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Username: Gogo

Post Number: 1199
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Transportation: Shuttle woes spor talk of cooperation

The shuttle glitch illustrated the need for a better regional bus system, said Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson.

"We need to get the damn transportation system up to a major city level," he said Monday. "That has to be priority one."


This is a particularly interesting quote considering that Detroit donated 300 buses to shuttle people, while the suburbs gave 25. The majority of people using the shuttles were from the suburbs.

Is this a change of heart for L Brooks or more hot air blowing out his pie hole?

I find the term "major city level" to describe where our bus system needs to go interesting. Does this just mean that its something the "city" needs to take care of, releiving himself of any responsibility? Or does he truly envision us all working together (finally) to get this mass transit thing solved??

Hopefully this experience will serve as a catalyst to bring everyone to the table to work for a better mass transit system. However, I find any such talks difficult to invision with a poopface like LBP in office.
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Username: Jdkeepsmiling

Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 208.50.91.234
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

L brooks give not a shit about the city. I live in Plymouth, so I am not some jaded Detroiter, but he always seems to rip Detroit down, and never wants to cooperate on anything. Maybe this finally made him realize that something needs to be done. THe frist step is the creation of a Regional Transit Authority that has actual power. We do not need DDOT and SMART busses running. There should be one bus system, controlled by the RTA, this is how any other city does it. I don;t care where the RTA is located, lets just get a regional system so then we can move on to light rail.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1547
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To be fair to LBP has always been for a regional transit system. He is not for light rail but has been a fan of consolidating and improving the bus system.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 742
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Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I want to first say I am not a fan of L Brooks, but I think he saw the only problem at the Super Bowl was our regions mass transit. Maybe seing how the system was maxed out made him realize how important mass transit is to the success of our region.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1235
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, Brooks should know that no other major city has suburban buses running downtown where the average trip length is over 10 miles (I'm talking to you--SMART!). It's horribly slow, inefficient and expensive to have bus trips that long....
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 172
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Associated Press article in today's Windsor Star:


Mass transit snarls Bowl

Associated Press
Published: Tuesday, February 07, 2006

DETROIT - If there's one weight slowing down Detroit's rising Super Bowl star, organizers say it is transportation.

The city is at the core of one of the largest metropolitan areas in the Untied States but does not have a comprehensive mass transit system. That weakness that showed itself during Super Bowl weekend, when suburbanites coming downtown for a winter festival overwhelmed a shuttle bus system.

"Everything was absolutely perfect, except the Park and Ride," Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick said at a post-Super Bowl news conference Monday.

Outlying lots, particularly Saturday night at a Macomb County shopping mall, were filled to capacity, and there were reports of people waiting hours for buses headed downtown.

More than 300,000 people used the shuttles Saturday alone, and Kilpatrick conceded that officials didn't expect such large crowds.

He said the region needs mass transit, adding that Detroit lost a professional bowling tour stop to Salt Lake City because it has a mass transit rail system.

Detroit operates a bus system within its boundaries, but it is separate from a three-county suburban system. There are no commuter rail lines, and many attempts at creating a regional transit system have failed.

Larry Alexander, president of the Detroit Metro Convention & Visitors Bureau, said mass transit is critically important to luring large-scale events.

He said he would like to see rail service between downtown and Detroit Metropolitan Airport, about 20 miles away in Romulus.

Detroit's competitors for event business, such as Chicago and Washington, all have train systems in place, he said.

Frank Supovitz, the NFL's senior vice president of events, said the lack of rail service wouldn't hurt Detroit should it seek another Super Bowl because the city was able to move large numbers of people with buses last weekend.

But rail service "is certainly helpful," he said.

Kilpatrick, a Democrat, said that during Super Bowl week, he brought Michigan House Speaker Craig DeRoche downtown.

DeRoche said he and Kilpatrick agreed to work together on mass transit.

"While we don't have anything to announce immediately, I hope to be able to find solutions that work that we can both get behind," DeRoche said.

Last year, Congress allocated $100 million to the region to study rapid transit in a 50-mile corridor from Detroit west to the airport and Ann Arbor.

© The Windsor Star 2006
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 836
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.18
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Brooks fears that mass transit might reverse, or at least slow, the flow of people into OC...by redefining the city proper as the geographical center of the region and his great taxbase might gravitate back towards the middle instead of further out into his domain.

lets hope something comes of it!
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1236
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow. 300,000 riders on a Saturday, and the waits were 2 HOURS? That alone should illustrate why a bus-only transit system is a bad idea. You're never going to be able to move the amount of people required to generate critical mass.

Now, I think this is a fair comparison because the DC and Detroit regions are about equal in size. Our Metro carries over 300,000 people on a normal Saturday (rail only), and the longest waits are 12 minutes. It's time for Detroit to start demanding better.
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Hockey_player
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Username: Hockey_player

Post Number: 192
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.148.213.218
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, all that stands between people choosing Detroit over Birmingham is a bus system. All else is equal.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 838
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.18
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hockey-player...I'm sure you know better than that!

It doesn't have to be "better", it just has to be new and different to the people experiencing it...it might repulse some, it might intrigue others....bottom line, once you get people moving around, people will discover new things about the city and about other areas of the region, instead of continuing to live in a media-fed vacuum in suburb-X
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Mw2gs
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Username: Mw2gs

Post Number: 141
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 70.229.41.55
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mass transit through the city is useless if people dont have a need to get in and out of the city on a regular basis. Bring more employers first then concentrate on mass transit. The game and the number of people moving in and out wass an isolated event which isnt the norm YET.
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Detroitduo
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Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 489
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 194.138.39.52
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Boy, LBP must have gotten a bug up his ass. I hope the damn thing festers until we get a frickin' transportation system worthy of our #11 city status. Even Grand Rapids is getting a light rail system before Detroit. That should have pissed LBP off about 3 years ago! This must be a Vicodin+Gin induced rant...

So, now I'm waiting for LBP's follow-up rant about how he will not support anything that will require his tax payers money....
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 746
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another thing that should show how people would use mass transit is the very cool amount of people that used the DPM all during Super Bowl week. It was packed, and this should show that if we had a more conprehensive mass transit system, people will use it. This should wake up call to our politicians. I
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 2609
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Posted From: 69.219.119.154
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hope this is more than just another soundbite. I won't repeat my personal bitch about this past weekend, it's in another thread.

I believe, for a variety of reasons, mass transit in this region should be at the top of the list of priorities. Many depend on it to get to jobs, school, etc. To those that do, it is a necessity, not a luxury.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 364
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brooks may be making this point: about the only thing the City of Detroit was directly responsible for was the shuttles - and look where that project ended up. The FBI coordinated the security. Host Committee coordinated the Winter Blast, snow removal, Ford Field matters,city decor, building artifice, homeless party, highway clean-up,etc. Visitors Bureau handled national media center.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 747
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Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Which is why we need a comprehensive mass transit authority that is regional, not just run by one city or county. Our region banded together to pull off the Super Bowl, and we need to continue that momentum into fixing our regions other problems and this will help us turn around. Mass transit would help fix Detroit unemployment rate, helping people that can't get to jobs by any other means but mass transit.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 390
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's build a modern mass transit system ASAP, and bid for another Superbowl soon. After the grand event last week, I believe many Detroiters are hungry for more such occasions.
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Gogo
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Username: Gogo

Post Number: 1202
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southwestmap - This is exactly the problem, the attitude that Detroit must solve all of this regions problems. Poverty, homelessness, mass transit, etc. while the suburbs can sit on the sidelines and point out all the problems and not contribute.

The bus statistics are symbolic of this regions attitude to solving problems. Detroit offers 360 buses despite its financial difficulties. Suburbs offer 25 because they don't want to interrupt their regular services. Then LBP has the nerve to say the shuttles need to be better.

A regional mass transit is everyones responsibility, not just Detroits.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 748
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Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let me point out that when OC hosted the Super Bowl it was considered a disaster all around. Detroit as a host was considered a huge success.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6671
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Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pontiac if it fails is Detroit. If it succeeds it is OC, not Detroit.

Didn't you know that's how it works?
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 183
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dana Johnson - chief economist for Comerica - mentioned on WJR this AM that the $300 million or so from the SB was mainly psychological and would not do much fundamentally for Metro Detroit financially. He said that without job creation and new firms (re)locating here, the old problems will still be present or get worse.

Mass or rapid transit won't do much otherwise. Detroit won't be much of a tourist attraction in the near-future, even with another SB in 6 to 20 years.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3500
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Brooks may be making this point: about the only thing the City of Detroit was directly responsible for was the shuttles - and look where that project ended up.




Not really true. DDOT was in charge of the supplying the busses and the routes while the host committee was responsible for the passenger staging and other related logisitics. They were also responsible for supplying DDOT with ridership estimates so DDOT could make adequate plans.

The Host Committee failed to provide even remotely accurate ridership estimates and did a very poor job of creating comfortable and logical staging areas. They had not even planned for things like lighting or chutes at the Fort / Cass staging area.

DDOT, DPW and the DDP Street Ambassadors stepped up to the plate to try to solve a huge problem while it was unfolding Friday and Saturday. DPW and the Ambassadors installed over 500 pieces of chute railing while wraingling over 9,000 people into lines in the middle of rain and snow. DDP hunted down and had temporary lighting installed.

It also did not help when the Wayne County Sherriffs walked off the job at Fort Cass on Friday night at midnight because no-one had authorized overtime, leaving Ambassador Volunteers to try to direct traffic without flashlights, whistles or authority until DPD could show up and unsnarl the mess.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1237
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Mass or rapid transit won't do much otherwise. Detroit won't be much of a tourist attraction in the near-future, even with another SB in 6 to 20 years.




Yeah, because rapid transit is just for tourists.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1407
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the overview Skulker.

Even more info than I was able to provide here:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/for ums/index.php?s=20a7de26432bd9 8c4a09f04253f7dd6b&showtopic=2 1385&st=20
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 474
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.10.63.140
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hey Js,

gonna report about the Capitol Park meeting :-)

....waiting in suspense heh
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 366
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Myers and Skulker - I appreciate your input on the episode. However, who/what is the transportation logistics expert here? Is it supposed to be the Host Committee? Do you doubt that the HC had a transportation committee and that DDOT was on that sub-committee? Isn't DDot the supposed expert and shouldn't DDot have had some thoughts on staging, etc to share with the HC.

Moving a lot of people in a single day is not beyond many big city transportation departments. I agree that there is not the experience here - but there should have been the expertise. And what about the People Mover? Why not enough cars in play?
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1193
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the demand for the park and ride was way higher than authorities expected, considering this is metro Detroit. This gives us some hope...if we keep building up in downtown (so that downtown isn't half parking lots anymore) perhaps people will be more willing to use buses. Make parking scarce like it was last weekend means raising demand for transit. I think the "modern transit system ASAP" pleas will fulfill themselves with continued and unrelenting focus on making downtown Detroit a premier location, and continuing to use expansionary economic policies and incentives to create more landmark developments. When people want to go downtown (or need to, because their place of employment is there), and they know they'll be fine down there w/o a car, then relying on transit will be a normal thing.

How many people used the park and ride from Wayne State? That seemed like the most ideal setup. Alot of DMC employees used their parking in the Mack/Canfield area and just hiked through Brush Park, and that was a good idea too.

It was funny to see all of those downtown parking areas people depend on for Tigers/Lions games rendered pretty much useless last weekend as we were turned into a walking-intensive downtown...the way it should be.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3503
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

However, who/what is the transportation logistics expert here? Is it supposed to be the Host Committee? Do you doubt that the HC had a transportation committee and that DDOT was on that sub-committee?




A Superbowl Host Committee is charged with all aspects of the game and its associated events and support infrastructure. The SBXLHC did indeed have a transportation committee and yes DDOT was part of it as were NFL's event coordinators. DDOT was charged with working out the routes and securing adequate busses. SBXLHC took the lead on logistics for securing sites and permits, crowd management and other issues.

DDOT does not run Superbowls and relied the estimates from the SBXLHC and the NFL and had enough resurces based on those estimates, which we now know were waaaay off.

DDOT repeatedly asked what kind of staffing the needed to supply for the sites and they were told to supply a handful of people to hold signs and to control the number of people going on to each bus. SBXLHC was to do the rest. SBXLHC failed on this. In all fairness, one of the key SBXLHC personnel on the transportation committee suffered a stroke on the Monday before the game and the rest of the SBXLHC had to try to step in and pick up the pieces of the projects he was working on.



quote:

And what about the People Mover? Why not enough cars in play?




The DPM had the maximum number of cars possible on the track running.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 179
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IMHO, Metro Detroit should start simple with two rapid transit lines (either light rail or BRT on dedicated lanes). One from DTW to Detroit thru Dearborn, and the other down Woodward from Detroit to Pontiac or Auburn Hills. The two lines should connect somewhere in Detroit and be serviced by Transit Windsor's tunnel bus.

The area needs rapid transit down Woodward and it is embarrassing that there is no rapid transit from the airport. In most cities it costs a couple dollars to take a bus/train/subway from the airport to the city -- in Metro Detroit it costs a cab ride.

What does it cost me to take a bus (on a dedicated roadway) from downtown to the airport in Ottawa? Less than $2 cdn if I use tickets -- and Ontario is one of the worst for subsidizing transit.

KK and LB: two lines. That’s all. Start with buses on dedicated lanes, move to light rail when the system gets established. Everyone else is doing this…why can't Detroit?
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 845
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.18
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

speaking of buses, I spotted a few of those GM diesel-electric hybrid buses around town (GM owned I presume, given the decals all over 'em)...why doesn't DDOT have any of those?
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 3679
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.174.238
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If Mayor L.B. Patterson of New Detroit wants a mass transit system. He should plan on it right now.
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Wilus1mj
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Username: Wilus1mj

Post Number: 31
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 216.111.89.3
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have Penske talk with L.B., he's a Oakland County constituent.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

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Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southwest,

I just strolled up in a red jacket the night of and tried to help out. The only information I had was what I overheard or what I was told.

Everything that Skulker wrote fits with what little I know. I lot of it goes way beyond.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3161
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really don't have much to add than besides the fact that I believe just improving or consolidating a bus system is a half-assed, half-baked idea. I swear, Phoenix (a city nowhere near as dense as even a declined Detroit) is going to have a region-wide light-rail system before Southeast Michigan does.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only rail system that makes any economic sense at all for Metro Detroit, especially connecting Ann Arbor, is commuter rail on pre-existing, standard-gauge tracks. Light-rail would be too expensive because special, dedicated ROWs must be built for its entire length. The time to have gone that route should have been when the freeways were first designed and built. It's way too late and expensive for that now.

Downtown Detroit would impose a problem in any case, and some mileage of it would have to be underground, especially along the Detroit River. A subway in Detroit might be a bit scary, in any case considering its crime potential.

The principal users would tend to be suburbanites near the railroad grid or those commuting to park-and-rides, not Detroit city residents off the rail grid. So, I can foresee many Detroiters (city of) complaining about suburbanites getting special consideration, etc. City residents would have to rely on the mismanaged DDOT bus system for the time being. However, if and when Detroit goes into receivership, the agency in charge then could fire the DDOT in one fell swoop and rebuild it from the ground up.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3163
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Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you realize that commuter rail and light rail exist in almost every major metropolitan area? They work together, not against each other. They serve two different purposes, and both are needed. Do you know nothing of light rail? I've seen you repeat this exact same argument before many, many times.
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Harsensis
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Username: Harsensis

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 70.156.185.133
Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 11:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would love to see a better mass transit system in Detroit, but it is still the Motor City and the car companies still have influence over the city. It would be great if GM didn't kill the old trolley system years ago. I like that idea of starting out with the two lines and then build it out from there. Toronto has a nice setup with the subway and bus lines going out from that.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 7
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Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 7:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patterson will be on WJR at around 7:10 AM Thursday. He really put down any light rail yesterday on WJR. He favors only bus mass transit.

He also said that the mis (or mal) managed DDOT loses $80 to $85 million/yr. That a $1 billion every dozen years.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 181
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Link to Toronto's version of the OC's bus rapid transit system (ugly sentence). The system is less than a year old. The plan is that eventually part of the system will move to LRT.

The system connects with Toronto's subway system.

http://www.vivayork.com/
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 9
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Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only thing worse than a tax-and-spend Dem (or GOP) is a tax-and-spend Canadien...
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1242
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I would love to see a better mass transit system in Detroit, but it is still the Motor City and the car companies still have influence over the city.




Yawn. Is that why Chrysler, Ford, and GM came out in support of a regional transit system? The Big Three are more worried about staying solvent these days than influencing public policy.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 752
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Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 2:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Big Three are probably hoping to get contracts to be part of building a new transit system. GM has its hybrid busses. They need new business right now.
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2053
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 63.149.5.130
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All I want for Christmas is a transit line from downtown to Detroit metro...all the flying I do it would be so nice to park and take a train to the airport!
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 184
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GM Hybrid buses as mentioned by Bob. I am sure GM would be thrilled if these formed the backbone of a Metro Detroit rapid transit system.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/ar ticle.aspx?contentid=4022529&s rc=News
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Sknutson
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Username: Sknutson

Post Number: 426
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 67.114.23.202
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The only thing worse than a tax-and-spend Dem (or GOP) is a tax-and-spend Canadien...




Actually, the GOP is more fond of "Borrow and Spend" these days.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 753
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, Bush loves to spend on his programs, but cut things that are actually useful like student loans, and putting money into Amtrak, which needs more money, not less. Bush loves funneling money into Iraq where they will just blow up what we are building, but cut something that helps people in our own country.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 186
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 70.28.0.156
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am not sure if this article has been posted....

Rogers’ Motion Moves Stalled Transit Debate:
Oakland County commissioner steps up to Detroit’s 30-year struggle

By Keith Schneider and Scott Anderson

Great Lakes Bulletin News Service

http://www.mlui.org/transporta tion/fullarticle.asp?fileid=17 001
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Erikd
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Username: Erikd

Post Number: 520
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.214.106
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 1:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am amazed at some of the anti-transit views in this region. This quote from one of the posters on this thread is a perfect example of the backwards thinking that holds us back:

quote:

Yes, all that stands between people choosing Detroit over Birmingham is a bus system. All else is equal.



What a stupid statement. REGIONAL transportation is not about pitting one local community against another. the whole point of regional transit is to tie the entire region together for the benefit of all. A light rail line on Woodward would benefit Birmingham AND Detroit, not improve Detroit at the expense of Birmingham. This type of project would enable Birmingham residents to take a train to Pontiac, Royal Oak, Ferndale, WSU, Cobo, DIA, downtown stadia, casinos, the theatre district, Greektown, and downtown office jobs. The suggestion that this is something that would only benefit people living within the city Detroit couldn't be further from the truth.

People need to get over the moronic mindset that regional infrastructure improvements will only benefit one local community at the expense of another. It may come as a shock to some people, but improving things on a regional level will help everybody in SE Michigan by making us more attractive to businesses and residents.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 6:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patterson talked quite a bit this week in various WJR interviews this week. He insisted that he only favored bus mass transit. He considered the commuter and light-rail proposals to be expensive boondoogles that could cost upwards from $1 billion to implement and would require high operating subsidies.

At current expenditure rates, the DDOT will burn up $1 billion every dozen years, as it is. And its typical rate of service is only putting out about 70% of its scheduled runs, even at the recently revised lower level of service.

Patterson said he does not subscribe to the foolish "Build it and business will follow." nonsense. He stated he would not bet his county's funds on that costly undertaking.
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Gogo
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Username: Gogo

Post Number: 1208
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Patterson said he does not subscribe to the foolish "Build it and business will follow." nonsense. He stated he would not bet his county's funds on that costly undertaking.




Interesting. But he will subscribe to the cut taxes and services/programs nonsense and business will follow.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 9:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We'll have to see what happens with his statewide SBT referendum, won't we?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6687
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

He considered the commuter and light-rail proposals to be expensive boondoogles that could cost upwards from $1 billion to implement and would require high operating subsidies.





quote:

Patterson said he does not subscribe to the foolish "Build it and business will follow." nonsense. He stated he would not bet his county's funds on that costly undertaking.




But he will support a $1 Billion of I-75. Of course he won't support it with his taxpayers money, he will support it with the money of all taxpayers in the state.

Get drunk and drive into a tree already.
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Noggin
Member
Username: Noggin

Post Number: 46
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 71.227.102.104
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now which cities do not have mass transit?

Real Estate
Worst Cities For Traffic
Forbes.com
By Robert Malone

NEW YORK - The worst traffic in the U.S. is getting even worse. It pollutes as the vehicles idle. It wastes the time of trucks and passenger cars. The annual delay per driver is in excess of 47 hours per year. It creates delayed shipments. It wastes more than 2.3 billion gallons of fuel each year.

The cost of U.S. traffic delays is, conservatively, $63.1 billion a year, based on 2003 figures, the Texas Transportation Institute says. And it's not getting any better.

"We would think that today the figure might be $2 billion to $3 billion more with the rise in fuel prices,” says David Schrank, author of the 2005 Urban Utility Report for the Texas Transportation Institute. He suggests further that despite this escalating problem, the commuting public has not changed its driving habits all that much. People have done some chaining of chores and shared driving to malls and offices. But the driving has continued, and the delays continue to get worse.

Go to Forbes.com to see the worst intersections for traffic
traffic1_419x98.jpg

"In L.A. the traffic delay problem extends from sunup to sundown," says Schrank. "There is really no letup between.”

By the Texas Transportation Institute's reckoning, the cities having the worst traffic problems are:

1. Los Angeles, Long Beach, Santa Ana, Calif.
2. San Francisco, Oakland, Calif.
3. Washington, D.C.
4. Atlanta
5. Houston
6. Dallas, Fort Worth, Arlington, Tex.
7. Chicago.
8. Detroit
9. Riverside, San Bernardino, Calif.
9. Orlando, Fla.
11. San Jose, Calif.
12. San Diego

California has a decided edge in winning the award for the worst traffic, since five of its cities (or city regions) make the top 12 list. Several of the cities mentioned are well known as trucking, rail, air and sometimes sea hubs for logistics. The convergence of services taxes the infrastructure.

More dubious awards may be given for worst highways as determined by Overdrive magazine. They are I-10 in Louisiana, I-44 in Missouri and I-95 in New York.

I-10 had to be an outstanding problem during the duration of Hurricane Katrina. The worst highways seem to be associated with major cities, cities with major airports, large bodies of water (needing bridges that often result in fewer lanes, given their cost), rivers and huge suburban commuting populations.

Given the existing levels of expenditure on these roads and city infrastructures, all that's foreseeable is much more of the same. Can these problems be solved? Yes, but it takes incisive planning, political agreement, commitment from the top and earnest follow-through execution by all.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6691
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't tell LBP that, he will go on a little rant bitching that we need to widen roads.
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Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How do you say, "Let them ride buses!" in French?
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Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1243
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah--the TTI list! How fun and misleading!

The problem with that list, is that it focuses on metropolitan areas and not cities. For example, within DC, the public transit system is pretty damn good, but get into the outer suburbs of Northern Virginia, and it's a complete traffic nightmare. The TTI's categorization of data by metropolitan area isn't unlike the joke where Bill Gates walks into a room, making the average person in the room a millionaire. It's not untruthful--just a bit distorted.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 20
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd love it if Bill Gates sat on my couch. For the brief time he'd be here, my average income would rise tremendously and there'd probably be a loose $ million or two left behind in the sofa.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 9882
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.228
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DaninDC,

I totally agree. I commute 30 miles each way, coming OUT of Detroit. My whole commute is smooth sailing at a good 20 mph over the speed limit the whole way. I can't say the same for those that live in Novi and commute to downtown, as their commute is double mine and often entails bumper to bumper traffic. The closer I get to the Detroit city limits during my commute home, the thinner the traffic gets.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6695
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

$1 B boondoggle. But the roads are a great deal:

http://detroitnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060210/M ETRO05/602100318

$358M in snarls are down the road
No relief in sight for Metro Detroit commuters

Let dump 300-500 Million in roads every year and claim mass transit is a boondoggle. Does he even listen to himself sometimes?
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6696
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But then again the lion's share of those 358 MM is in OC so of course LBP is happy that we are all subsidizing work in his county.
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Machoken
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Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1121
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.145.38.104
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If LBP ever listened to himself, he would just think 'Gee I'm a goddamned foul mouthed bastard!'
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Noggin
Member
Username: Noggin

Post Number: 47
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 71.227.102.104
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How can LBP drink and drive if the roads are not fixed up?
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Upinottawa
Member
Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 187
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 2:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Reviewing LBP's comments (posted above), he essentially is saying that DDOT is a poorly managed money pit while saying that transit needs to get up to a "major city level". He could mean smarten up Detroit/DDOT. However, he could be saying that DDOT doesn't work so it should be disbanded and a new transit authority (DARTA?)needs to be created.
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Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 24
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 5:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DARTA was vetoed by Engler as he left office. Patterson did indeed favor DARTA.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6701
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that he still favors DARTA as does KK. That does have the potential to bring about some regionalization.

Of course I think they work together better than it is portrayed. The LBP is always right KK is always wrong that is typical in the papers isn;t always the case.
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Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 25
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DARTA

One of Governor Engler's last acts was to veto HB 5467, the bill creating the Detroit Area Regional Transportation Authority. The veto was a surprise to many as the bills passed with bipartisan support and represented over 2 years of work by many well-respected groups including the Detroit Regional Chamber of Commerce and Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson.

Under the proposal, DARTA would have overseen the operations of the Detroit Department of Transporation and the suburban SMART system. The bill would have allowed local communities to opt out of the system if they chose. Many suburban legislators vigorously opposed the legislation while city of Detroit lawmakers called it a boon to economic development in the area.

Governor Engler cited the defeat of the charter school expansion bill in the Senate during the December 30 final session as the reason for vetoing the bill. In his veto letter, Governor Engler stated that education and transportation problems in the city needed to be dealt with together and that this proposal only represented a solution for one of those problems.
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Jams
Member
Username: Jams

Post Number: 2615
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.233.4.53
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While you argue the benefits of light-rail, commuter rail, rapid buses, or horse drawn jitneys on various routes.

Think about this, this region has thousands of people that depend on mass transit, TODAY. Anyone wish to discuss this issue outside of aesthetics? LRT Detroit to Ann Arbor or a line up Woodward does nothing for a worker at Chalmers and Seymour needing to get to a job on a day-to-day basis. I don't think that person will care too much about someone that uses the system to head out for a night of partying because of fear of a DUI, when he spends many hours a day getting to and from a job needed to survive.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3168
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jams, until transit backers can convince the general public that mass transit is not just an extra, but a necessity, don't expect to see ANY effective mass transit. That is exactly why the route proposed MUST be a popular one, to convince everyone else of how much it would help their specific areas in the long run.

It is quite obvious that Detroit can not do it on their own, and the Metro sure as Hell isn't going to help pay for a line that they would only view as helping Detroit, at the moment. That much is clear, as unfair as it may be. That is why a line connecting Detroit to the airport, or Ann Abor is so incredibly important. It will make getting effective mass transit in Detroit just that much more possible.
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Jams
Member
Username: Jams

Post Number: 2618
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.233.4.53
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 2:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also see the obverse, a line that is not an immediate success could push efforts for effective Mass Transit even further back in the region.

Somehow, education of the public that Mass Transit is a viable and valuable alternative to the personal vehicle must be part of any plan.

At this moment in time my anectdotal evidence makes me believe that will be a hard sell. I can't tell you the number of times I've been applauded for choosing a life without a car. Those same people than offer me at least a ride to the bus stop two blocks away, as though it is unimaginable just to walk.

I do realize my points are my personal experiences and bitches, but research is a cumulation of individual facts collected to draw a conclusion affectng many.
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Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2326
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.131
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 2:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernoisyard, monorail! monorail!
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Jams
Member
Username: Jams

Post Number: 2620
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.233.4.53
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 2:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Reliable Transit by whatever means!!

Reliable Transit by whatever means!!

Reliable Transit by whatever means!!

ASAP
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Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd

Post Number: 522
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.214.106
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 5:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is some food for thought/clarification on the transit issue:

Jams makes a good point about the need for improved transit to all areas, and not just one or two lines.

This is a valid point, and it is something that would be addressed in a comprehensive regional transit upgrade. The implemetation of a regional system (possibly with a few rapid transit lines on major routes) would benefit all transit lines, and not just the few rapid transit lines. A merged bus system combined with a few rapid transit lines would result in less overhead and the elimination of duplicate and/or competing services.

The cost savings realized by merging DDOT and SMART would free up a ton of money to put towards inmproved service.

The amount of money that is wasted by planning 2 separate schedules, printing 2 different sets of schedules, maintaining 2 different websites, advertising for 2 different bus systems, paying 2 sets of management and support staff, etc. would be much better spent on more busses and drivers. One of the other big benefits of a regional system would be the end of competing bus routes. The frequency of pick ups would have a big increase just by merging the two systems. Every day, people have to watch half-filled busses pass them by as they wait for the competing bus system to pick them up on the same route. It is a model of inefficiency.

The addition of light rail or other rapid transit lines on a few major routes would also benefit the other routes by freeing up a ton of busses and drivers to service "secondary" routes, resulting in better service on every route, not just the new rapid transit lines.

The creation of a regional transit system, featuring rapid transit lines would enable Michigan to receive federal funding for a lage portion of the construction and maintainence of the new system. The anti-transit crowd loves to throw out big numbers to scare taxpayers (for example, LBP "considered the commuter and light-rail proposals to be expensive boondoogles that could cost upwards from $1 billion to implement and would require high operating subsidies.")

Don't be fooled by the so-called "high cost" of a real transit system. If good transit systems were nothing more than "expensive boondoogles", metro Detroit wouldn't be the only large city in the developed world without one. I suppose the anti-transit crowd in SE Michigan knows something that all the other big cities don't. The fact that we are losing jobs and residents to areas with better transportation systems must just be a coincidence. The only regional transit system that is an "expensive boondoogle" is the one in metro Detroit.

The lack of a real transit system in metro Detroit costs us far more money than the cost of building one will.

For decades, Michigan has ranked last in getting back the tax dollars that we pay for mass transit. Last year, Michigan only got back 43% of the tax dollars that we paid out for mass transit funding.

Don't let the anti-transit crowd fool you into thinking that Michigan would need to collect billions of extra tax dollars to fund a better system. For decades, we have been paying taxes for mass transit that WE DON'T HAVE! Thanks to local leaders like LBP, Michigan taxpayers have paid out billions to fund mass transit systems in Denver, LV, Houston, LA, Pittsburgh, NY, Chi, etc. The real kicker is that we are now losing our companies and our most qualified young people to these same cities. Go figure that one of the top reasons cited by the people leaving Michigan for these other areas is the better transit systems (that have been built with lots of Michigan tax dollars.)

If you like paying taxes to build and maintain mass transit in other states at the expense of Michigan, keep supporting the anti-transit leaders in metro Detroit. Maybe you will get to see your tax dollars at work when you visit one of the cities pulling jobs and residents away from Michigan because of their superior infrastructure.
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Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 26
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 8:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't expect anything significant for regional mass transit to occur other than, perhaps, more expensive "studies" for the next two/three years. By then, there should be indications of how little of Metro Detroit's industrial base might be left. Paul Smith of WJR was at the Chicago Auto Show earlier this week and got into some pretty heated interviews with auto company and UAW leaders, especially with Gettelsfinger about the abused and wasteful jobs bank. Smith said that many shoes have yet to "fall from the closet," which are expected to herald yet more dire news about the downsizing of Michigan's role in manufacturing.

Besides, there could be a potential deficit of close to $1 billion in state general funding also to consider. Granholm will definitely not receive any passes in this respect. She might have to throw even some of her political base overboard.
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Ray
Member
Username: Ray

Post Number: 633
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.41.160.200
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 2:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(Sigh)

The opposition to mass transit here is really irrational. I think some of the opponents have ugly, ulterior motives.
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Bob
Member
Username: Bob

Post Number: 755
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think in the next election there should be a huge turnover in elected officials. The ones we have for the most part are the problem. Just read the Macomb Daily article from yesterday about Sen Sanborn from Northern Macomb, he loans his own money into the campaign to make it look like a huge war chest to scare away potential candidates. We need to clean house around here and get some elected officials who will actually stop thinking about party politics and actually do what is best for the state and region.

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