Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Unlikely Comparison: Torino - Italian Detroit? Previous Next
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3170
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 4:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, with the 2006 winter Olympics beginning, I decided to look up the host city of Turino (Turin), Italy. Though there are some key differences, their are some uncanny resemblences between the two (at least their modern selves). First off, they are both around the same population (900,000 give or take a few thousand in either direction), they both peaked at around the same population (Detroit, 1.8-2.0 million, Turino, 1.5 million). Both are heavily industrialized or were, and are major automobile manufacturing centers (or were). And both are losing population or have stablized (Torino may have grown .8% in the past three years, probably because of anticipation of the Olympics).

Take a look at its Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T urino

I couldn't believe the similarities. Does anyone else know anything about the two that either greatly differ, or seem very similar? Hopefully, I'll learn even more. I'm kind of getting tired of some of the negative threads, and hope that this can be something different in the end.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 27
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 8:34 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, it's Torino. The cities in the northern one-fourth of Italy were part of German-speaking Austria until the late 1800s. That's why many of its residents still refer to it as Turin, which is how it was called. Most of these towns and cities in this "Quadrangle" or "Quadrilateral" - named after the four major cities nearby in northern Italy - region of erstwhile Austria have dual names of the maps and atlases.

My cousin Karl, among others, in the Kaernten province of Austria was engaged with neraby Slovenins and Italians in the Kaernten Alps in securing an Olympic bid (which obviously was not awarded) around 1998 or so for the current Games. He has a practice in sports medicine in Klagenfurt and has been the Austrian ski team's trainer/physician ever since he got out of medical school. He participated in the Innsbruck Games and was the only Austrian other than Franz Klammer to win a gold back in the 1976 Olympics. Back then, he was called the "Austrian Eagle," when he was the world champion ski-jumper during the 1975/1976 season.

Turin is home of Fiat - not the most secure auto company in the world. Is this the similarity to Detroit to which you are alluding?
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Riverratracer
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Username: Riverratracer

Post Number: 26
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 207.67.146.54
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those who claim any similiarities between Detroit and Turino have obviously never been to Turino. End this thread before anyone has the opportunity to display any more ignorance.
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The_aram
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Username: The_aram

Post Number: 4684
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.213.175.233
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 12:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

End this thread before anyone has the opportunity to display any more ignorance.




Let's just shut down the entire board, then.
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 510
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.212.169.194
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 12:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Damn you people and your personal viewpoints and opinions.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3058
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 12:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ford Turino. Great ride.

FIAT, Fabrique Internationale at Turin.

That Mazerati in the Opening Ceremonies shows the connections with automobiles in Turnino.

Rivertracer should debate the issue, not diss the thread. We know, Turin is older than Detroit and Turin is near huge mountains called The Alps. But there may be other Detroit Connections.

My question is about Detroit's Italians. Where are they mostly from? They are a big deal in Detroit and helped to build this city.

jjaba bets that the Westside of Turin is incredible.

How do you get everybody to leave the hall at an Italian wedding in Detroit? Yell, out, "Hey Gumbas, the cement didn't dry!"

jjaba, car-shop John, Old timey Detroiter.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 327
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.210.161
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 1:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another mention of Torino-Detroit similarities
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/ winter06/columns/story?id=2325 537
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 497
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 70.236.179.227
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 1:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

from the article:

"The home of Fiat, Torino occasionally is referred to as the Detroit of Italy -- although, thankfully, we won't have to read any stories about how Jerome Bettis grew up here. Like Detroit, Torino has lost many of its auto-manufacturing jobs in recent decades, but it is trying to revitalize itself "
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 706
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 70.233.7.222
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 2:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only thing (other than the Alps) I remember from Torino is the smell. They burn garbage in the mountains up there... it puts Melvindale to shame.

And the Ferrari in the Opening cermonies was kick-ass.
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Expat
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Username: Expat

Post Number: 27
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 24.60.133.101
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 3:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Probably the major difference between Torino and Detroit is that, as the seat of the House of Savoy, Torino was, for a time, a royal capital, and therefore has a quite elegant city center, complete with former royal palace.

That's not to say that there aren't some similarities. Torino has had to deal with the decline of the Italian auto industry (and done some creative things renovating former FIAT sites for alternative uses).

Finally, re: Jjaba's question. My guess would be that the vast majority of Detroit Italian-Americans are from nowhere near Torino but, rather, from the south of Italy, which is a different world from the cosmopolitan (nearly "Swiss") Piemonte region. (However, a lot of the autoworkers in Torino auto plants at their height in the '60s and '70s came from the South in search of economic opportunity, much like many Detroit autoworkers came from the American South).
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 31
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 3:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan: What do you have against "glue factories?"
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2037
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.163.181.81
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 3:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Turin: once the seat of the house of Savoy.
Detroit: once installed seats in Plymouth Savoy.

Yay Plymouth!
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Eastside
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Username: Eastside

Post Number: 782
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.246.10.58
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 4:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I second Riverrat
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Mpow
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Username: Mpow

Post Number: 170
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 200.65.7.84
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 5:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I-ve been to Torino, and I can definitely see comparisons to Detroit. I think it is an appropriate thread. Actually lots of African Italians live there too, came there from mostly Madagascar and Angola to work in the factories, not unlike the migration from the south in the case of Detroit.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 62
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.60.133.115
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 5:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most of Detroit's Italians don't come from northern Italy. Most come from Sicily. In downtown Detroit there is a Roman Catholic Sicilian Parish. Right there next to Blue Cross Blue Shield.
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Eastside
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Username: Eastside

Post Number: 783
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.246.10.58
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 6:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My grandparents came to Detroit from Sicily...first job was selling papers downtown.
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 499
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.10.63.140
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 6:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Article in today's Detroit News also links Turino and Detroit
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Riverratracer
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Username: Riverratracer

Post Number: 28
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 71.126.174.16
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 7:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To repeat, there is no comparison between Detroit and Torino. Let's limit those making any comparisons between Torino and Detroit to those who have actually been there and the thread will quickly (and mercifully) end.

I'm glad at least one person on the thread recognized the difference between a Ferarri and a Mazerati(sic).
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2392
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.54.14.33
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 7:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So what you're saying is that Detroit is nicer.

Come on man, show us your hand.
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Arab_guyumich
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Username: Arab_guyumich

Post Number: 742
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 141.217.98.141
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 7:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll take a Coney Dog over bologna any day!
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Riverratracer
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Username: Riverratracer

Post Number: 30
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 207.67.146.54
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 9:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love 'em both. Detroit and Torino. But they are not alike. If I had to say which was my fav... Big D would be the one. Spent the best days of my life here.
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Wmuchris
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Username: Wmuchris

Post Number: 191
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.51.137.10
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 10:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3171
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just found out that Torino is one of Detroit's sister cities. Thanks for all of the replies, everyone, and I guess even the negative ones, though I'd wish Riverratracer would tell me why this thread was such a horrible idea instead of the continued "They are nothing alike." Expand.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3060
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

2000 Rustic posts and you are still nuts. jjaba,LOL at your jokes.

Savoy schamoy, you are right. Plymouth was a great ride. But so was FIAT, RIP in USA.

Rivertracer, 30 posts and he's already Lowell's censor. This thread could be pretty good and could last until the Olympic Torch goes out. If jjaba has anything to say, it could last longer. jjaba welcomes your posts, so there. Who knows the issue dates of Ford Torinos? Which plant? How many produced? We know it came in a V-8 and a Urinate.

jjaba, pass the lasagna.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3514
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.255.242.233
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 1:17 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba, close but not quite....

"Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino"
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Global_village
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Username: Global_village

Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 139.168.120.246
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 6:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ferrari now owns Maserati. They plan to actually do something with the brand name, whereas Maserati never did and generally only sold 700 cars worldwide per year. Witness the beautiful (6-speed manual, twin-turbo) Maserati Shamal, only 300 were ever made.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3063
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 8:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba stands corrected.

FIAT. Fix IT AT Toledo.
(Oh wait, that's in Spain.)
FIAT. Fix It At Tuscany.

jjaba.
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Detroitduo
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Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 493
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 194.138.39.56
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 9:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was just in Torino this past weekend.

It is a very beautiful city. Like many Italian cities, it looks run-down, but it really has alot to offer. I think there are many parallels between Torino and Detroit, but Torino has one thing Detroit lacks. A country and government which help to prop it up during it's tough time.

I will be going back in a week and I will give a further assessment. All in all, Detroit is Detroit. It is a very special place and it has a special place in my heart. I had a bigger impression of Milan than of Torino.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 396
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.209.187.90
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 9:53 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The funny thing around here on DetroitYes is that to NEVER, EVER make comparisons or insinuate resemblance of Detroit with any city anywhere on earth whatsoever. It is a death-wish to do so.

It is common sense around here to realize that Detroit's problems are absolutely unique and would have never, ever occur anywhere else on the face of the earth. Therefore, its solutions should also be unique and thought from the ground up. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to learn from Torino, Italy or Coventry, England or anywhere else in the world for that matter. To do so would be condescending and sinful.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3515
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 10:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I disagree with your assessment Darwinism. I think posters and lurkers on this forum do recognize the value in looking around to other places to glean lessons learned and to benchmark best practices, especially in muncipal services, regional cooperation, taxation policy etc... I see it happen frequently, witness the interminable number of transportation threads. It is healthy, lively debate.

I think when folks hackles get raised it is because another poster implies that Detroit and is a complete basket case and must discard itself and everything it is (culturally, stylistically, the very fiber of it social being) and attempt to mimic some other city instead of staying true to itself while working to exploit and improve its unique features. To do so is to insult the PEOPLE and RESIDENTS and their core values, beliefs and lifestyles. That is very different from looking for helpful economic development tips such as how to fund transportation.

The funny thing around here on DetroitYes is that some folks STILL can't fathom the difference between the two approaches and fancy themselves matyrs railing for what is right only to be crassly persecuted.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2039
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 2:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think Ferrari owns Maserati anymore, I think they unloaded it onto Alpha Romeo about a year ago. The latest Maser Quattroporte is an absolutely beautiful sedan (photos don't do it justice see it for real) ... Mio Dio !
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3520
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 3:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

RUSTIC MUST DIE! He has commited the cardinal sin....

It is Alfa Romeo, NOT Alpha Romeo....

The Alfa is another acronym. It stands for Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili.

To clear up the confusion...

Fiat owns Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, Lancia and Maserati, all the premier nameplates of Italy.

They further own Iveco, New Holland, Teksid, Magneti Marelli and Camau.

They do not and never will own Lamborghini which is owned by Volkswagen Audi Group.

skulker - proudly Alfisti
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2041
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 3:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker gits huffy over alliterative typos now? (Hell, I wish I had written Alpha Romero to really get ya going.)

Wasn't Ferrari management running Maserati under Fiat's restructuring, and now doesn't Alfa Romeo management now make the calls?
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3522
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 3:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Rustic, but there are just some things that a man cannot be forced to abide and misspelling Alfa Romeo is one of them. For even suggesting that, I condemn you to have Lucas lighting systems on all your cars from now on.

From what I have been able to piece together, Maserati management, branding and direction was always under Fiat which was concerned with filling out niches in their brand portfolio. To get there, establishing performance and reengergizing the brand led to very intense collaboration with Ferrari. For example, Ferrari engines would be retuned and rebadged for Maserati and critical chassis data shared. For a while it was alomst if Ferrari had doubled their model line and production, although Maserati took responsibility for assembly etc The vision for the Maserati brand is to be much less bespoke than Ferrari but more exclusive than Lancia or Alfa. Now that they have the brand stabilized and re-established, Alfa is collaborating more than in the past to help bring costs back in line while Maser is still sharing engineering with Ferrari.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6706
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 3:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So who owns Alpha Roomayo?
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Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2044
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 3:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker,

Fiat Divides Maserati from Ferrari to Bolster Alfa Romeo

Following Separation from Ferrari, Maserati Plans New Alfa-Romeo-Based Model

Alfa-Maserati Partnership to Produce Executive Car

and just for fun:
Hey ya think I should trade in my Merc Sable Wagon in a couple of years for one of these?
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3070
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 3:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just curious, Maven Skulker. Is it Fiat as you write it or FIAT like it should be?

jjaba's neighbor had a vehicle badged Maserati built by Chrysler. When was that and is that arrangement gone?

Thanks in advance, Skulker.

jjaba.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3524
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 3:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the updates, my piecemeal info was not too far off the mark and those links help clarify it all. BUT given your familairity with Italian cars, your misspelling is now considered even more egregious.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2045
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 4:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey I like 'em as much as the next guy (tho if it ain't from Detroit it ain't in my driveway), I'm just not a dick about it, ya know?
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3526
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 4:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dude, relax, I'm just having fun...like I can actually hex your car to have Lucas lighting.

The mispelling is just a pet peeve of us Alfisti, ranks right up there with people who pronounce it Row-MEE-oh.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2047
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 4:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

keep it up and I'm gonna start pouting and complaining that yer being mean to me ... :-)

hey didn't Kid Rock's dad sell Alfas? I heard he had a Romeo car dealership ...
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3527
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 4:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba:

In the beginning, Fiat was written as FIAT and back before Mr. Romeo got involved it was plain old ALFA, but both those conventions went away before WWI by the deliberate actions of the companies themselves in their materials and documents.

The only place you consistently see ALL CAPS for either brand is on their badges.
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2217
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 12.75.18.152
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 4:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jjaba speaks of a vehicle known as the "Chrysler TC by Maserati" built from 89-91 or so. Kind of a lower-budget Allante.

I liked the looks of the TC and the Allante but Italian soft-top engineering left something to be desired. It's not a good sign when the Italian engineers have multiple classifications for water leaks from the soft top -- "Class A", "Class B", Class C" -- depending whether it's an occasional drip, a regular drip, or a steady stream running down the inside glass.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3073
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 4:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker and Rustic are excellent teachers. We actualy learn from them. Now kiss and make up.
The comment about Kid Rock made jjaba laugh.
jjaba thought Kid Rock's family grew Romeo apples. They make great pies BTW.
BTW, is there an Alfa Juliette?

jjaba, LOL.
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Skulker
Member
Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3528
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 4:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ahhhhhhh jjaba...

In the 1950s and 1960s, Alfa produced a model known as the Giulia and another, smaller version known as the Giulietta. They spanned many years and had many many iterations. The history of the Giulia and Giulietta would run longer than the Old Car Factory Thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A lfa_Romeo

Knowing jjaba's era, the Giula / Giulietta are the cars he was parked in when dreaming of Sophia Loren.

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