Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 A NUCLEAR WEAPON OVER DETROIT OR LENINGRAD Previous Next
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Dan
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Username: Dan

Post Number: 1178
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.47.194.247
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 6:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In looking for some info on nuclear war, i stumbled onto this, and thought some here might find in interesting.

A NUCLEAR WEAPON OVER DETROIT
OR LENINGRAD: A TUTORIAL ON THE
EFFECTS OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS

http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/ nuke/7906/790604.pdf
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1029
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 6:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wow... The most spread out metro in the US would be wiped out by one bomb... EVEN if they used a medium strength bomb at 15,000ft.... and thats if they hit downtown... they can do more if they move the location 4 miles up woodward...


that really sux...

But on top of that water lines would be useless and contaminated... I dont know why they included that in there...
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Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936

Post Number: 263
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 207.200.116.139
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 7:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pity the survivors.
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Atl_runner
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Username: Atl_runner

Post Number: 1812
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.209.118.72
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 7:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

5 psi. Enough to blow out walls and roofs, but leave metal frames standing.

In other words, one 25 MT bomb detonated at 15k feet would essentially wipe out all of Metro Detroit. It would be 1000 years before it would even start to recover.

I'm not putting this in there for political purposes, it just made me think.. this is why we need to keep Nuclear weapons out of Iran and other extremist countries. One bomb over one city would do untold collateral damage to the whole world.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2391
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.54.14.33
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 7:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What timing - I'm in Las Vegas now and just finished touring the Atomic Testing Museum. If you're ever here and want a break from the strip, it's definitely worth the visit: www.atomictestingmuseum.org

Not sure if it's still in the archives, but we had a thread on this before. I think the conclusions of that report are considered to be pesimistic, not that anything less would be business as usual.
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Bate
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Username: Bate

Post Number: 58
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.101.227.115
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 7:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darn! No matter where it is, check the guest book and Mikem will have beat you to it. I'm due to check out the Vegas area in June. Did you get to do the 8 hour trip to the Nevada test site? Regards, Eric (bate).
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Bate
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Username: Bate

Post Number: 59
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.101.227.115
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 8:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I forgot...for more fun nuclear information grab a copy of "The Plutonium Files", by Eileen Welsome. Quite an interesting read.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2393
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.54.14.33
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 8:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No I didn't; they only offer it once a month and my timing is bad. I will do it some day. The museum is top notch and between the photos, film footage, and displays, I feel like I've already been there. (I feel radioactive too.)

Soaking up the sun now on the campus of UNLV, watching cheerleader practice.
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Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936

Post Number: 264
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 207.200.116.139
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 9:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I first moved to Las Vegas in 1984, I applied for a security position at the Nevada Test Site. After many preliminary procedures, they bussed me out to Mercury, NV., the headquarters for the site for a physical.

Half way through the physical, they gave me a lunch voucher and sent me to the cafeteria on the base.

As I sat down with my tray of chow, I looked across the table from me and observed a heavy set man with bushy eyebrows, wearing a lab coat, eating his lunch. He looked like a clone of Dr. Edward Teller.

And I said to myself, "That's gotta be the guy that pushes the button."

Anyway, after six weeks they offered the job, but by then I had secured a postion as security director of a local hospital, so I turned 'em down. But the trip there was an interesting experience, to say the least.
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The_aram
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Username: The_aram

Post Number: 4685
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.213.175.233
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read somewhere that if Detroit were hit by a direct nuclear attack, glass shards from the Renaissance Center would reach Chicago. I find that a little unbelievable, but I guess it could be true.
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Krawlspace
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Username: Krawlspace

Post Number: 241
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 69.246.63.183
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:26 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, Mike..
How long are you out there for? I will be attending the Bar & Nightclub convention March 5-9. Not much of a gambler, so I have been looking for distractions. I knew the museum was out there but I had no idea of how close it was. Definitely will make the trip.

Just a side note on some great Atomic literature:
War Day by Strieber, Whitley & Kunetka is my number one WWIII novel.
On the Beach by Shute of course.
Fail Safe by Burdick
Alas Babylon by Frank

I also read some great non-fiction Atomic books that I have to go in my library for. I'll post them tomorrow.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 806
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.213
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I could find my old course book from the euphemistically entitled "Disaster Preparedness" Navy manual, I could find all of the formulae to figure out answers to all of the esoteric questions about an event over Detroit for various yeilds. The anticipated non-combatant casualties from an exchange were truly staggering, and these were considered acceptable losses (and you thought the FEMA response in NOLA was bad).

I highly doubt that recognizable glass shards would reach Chicago, due to prevailing winds and some physical laws, but microscopic glass spheres could reach heights to enter the jet stream.

More concern was placed in scenarios over a few initial, very high detonations, for EMP, to destroy every non-hardened piece of electronics. This would so debilitate our society, that any lower detonations would probably not be needed, except against priority military targets, and maybe psychological effects on the population.


Damn, I spent too much time in the past learnin' this crap.
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Jeffrey_thomas
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Username: Jeffrey_thomas

Post Number: 34
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 1:04 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Qoute- "wow... The most spread out metro in the US would be wiped out by one bomb... EVEN if they used a medium strength bomb at 15,000ft.... and thats if they hit downtown... they can do more if they move the location 4 miles up woodward..."

You are quite right the actual crosshairs were the I-94/I-75 interchange.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3513
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.255.242.233
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 1:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gherkin oh my Gherkin? Is that you?
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 36
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 9:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Take comfort in that Detroit should be way down the list of likely targets. It's already known as the "Beirut of North America."

Nah! Toledo or Findlay, Ohio are more likely.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 3235
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.79.167.30
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 9:51 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

anyone ever see that Trinity dvd that is out? It has all these old films of all sorts of nuke blasts.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 10:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glad you got a few blasts out of it.
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Krawlspace
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Username: Krawlspace

Post Number: 242
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 69.246.63.183
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 1:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Take comfort in that Detroit should be way down the list of likely targets. It's already known as the "Beirut of North America."




Ummm... Not quite. During the cold war, Detroit was in the first wave plans made by Soviet strategists even when the preferred method of delivery was by bomber, most likely the TU-4, which was a copy of the US B-29. The abundance of Nike missile sites in Detroit and the suburbs was a direct result of this. Throughout the life of the USSR, Detroit was seen as the hub of American industrial strength, and was always high on the target lists, even in a "limited exchange scenario". Today, Russia is estimated to have over 7000 weapons deployed of various delivery types. Rest assured that in a full exchange your eyes would be melting weather you think Detroit to be the Beirut, or Paris, of North America.
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Sticks
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Username: Sticks

Post Number: 71
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 69.136.142.60
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 1:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It also depends on what kind of strategy anybody launching a nuke wants to persue. Suppose Iran had ONE, just one, nuke to launch. Who would they hit? Detroit (and essentially Windsor thus bringing in another country), home of the Big 3 and the busiest Canadian/US border crossing? NYC, the largest city population-wise in the US? Washington D.C. hoping to nuke all the leaders and disrupt the chain of command?

Or they could just lob one into Montana or North Dakota, kill a couple hundred on a Reservation and say, "wanna call our bluff now?"
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 40
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rip van Krawl: Psst! Wake up! It isn't the 1940s or 1950s any longer. The automobile industry is decentralizing pronto out of Michigan, so don't be too alarmed after you rub your eyes awake that even the modern de Soto plant closed decades ago.

In addition, our military can go on without bringing Windsor into our future fighting plans also. The Canadiens, like the Italians before them, seem to go on war manuevers by practicing the surrender hands-position. Of course, that jest refers to their recent wussy civilian leadership, not their soldiers.

In case anyone might be interested in the range of Iranian attacks, the map posted today shows that most of Europe east of France is at risk. Shahab 4's range

Telegraph Iranian article

(Message edited by livernoisyard on February 12, 2006)
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Paulj
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Username: Paulj

Post Number: 334
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 68.79.80.163
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.nuclearpress.com/vi ew.lasso?id=0012&-token.f=3

The more likely, more devastating, and less apoclyptic-movie-like scenario.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 118
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Amish would struggle to restrain themselves from chuckling in that scenerio. :-)

(Message edited by Jimaz on February 12, 2006)
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 506
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.10.63.140
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yea, Detroit is certainly still a target.

The Ren Cen was near the top of the list for terrorist targets (top 5), because it symboloizes American Industry with GM, and being a huge building on an international front
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Paulj
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Username: Paulj

Post Number: 335
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 68.79.80.163
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'quick, everyone to the hills of Lancaster! We need to learn to churn our own butter!'
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 42
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, the EMP would cause us to revert to a form of the Iron Age. Even having an older car won't help much because the electronic fuel pump's circuitry at the Quicky Mart would also be useless.

Time to invest in an abacus before the mad rush to get one.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 119
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I still have my slide rules. They don't run MS Word very well though.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 43
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Slides will rule again as entertainment! What kind of rules must your kids adhere to on theirs?
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Jimg
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Username: Jimg

Post Number: 559
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 4:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is anyone concerned? Simply Duck & Cover!
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Krawlspace
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Username: Krawlspace

Post Number: 243
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 69.246.63.183
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 5:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rip Van Krawl?

Again, not quite.

I hardly believe the reason for a nuclear strike on Detroit today is due to the De Soto or any other factory. Your post stated the city wasn't a high priority target. You were not very clear as to who's target list you refer. If you mean a terrorist group's list, you are probably correct. If you refer to a rogue state like Iran or North Korea, right again. However, in a full nuclear exchange with China and/or Russia there is no doubt Detroit is targeted, even if based on the population of SE Michigan alone.

Helen Caldicott, the president of the Nuclear Policy Research Institute said in 2005

quote:

Russia still has 2,500 nuclear weapons and the United States has 5,000. There are only 240 major cities in the entire Northern Hemisphere. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has concluded that 40 nuclear weapons are targeted on New York City alone. There are probably 50 or 60 of them targeted on Washington, D.C. Every city and town in the United States is targeted with at least one H-bomb or thermonuclear weapon. And the Russians build really big H-bombs.




I hardly wish to debate semantics, but to suggest that Detroit is not high on the list targets in a full nuclear exchange due to the decline of the automobile industry is, I feel, incorrect.
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Clark1mt
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Username: Clark1mt

Post Number: 55
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 4.229.15.89
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 5:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit as an urban center is certainly a valid target for a nuclear strike by a nation-state. In addition, the Ambassador bridge and the rail and road tunnels are potential choke-points to be attacked for purposes of economic destablization. In a full-on nuclear attack, every major manufacturing facility would likely warrant its own warhead, including the Ford Rouge plant, The facilites along Van Dyke, and the GM Pontiac assembly plants. Assuming a reasonably large-yield set of weapons, most of the suburban Detroit area would be flattened as a result of the existence of such places.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 44
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 7:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't forget to duck under your desks. That's what the public schools in Milwaukee taught during the 1950s. However, attending the nearest school (a parochial school but two blocks away) from the primary target in Milwaukee back then - the A. O. Smith Co which was a bomb maker and chasis builder - we were told that it didn't matter much what we did...
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 122
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 8:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trying to imagine someone telling schoolkids "it doesn't matter much what you do." followed by "Oh, and while we're at it, Santa Claus doesn't really exist." Anguished crying ensues. LOL!
Dead Santa
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Jerome81
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Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 911
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.142.86.133
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 5:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Duck and Cover. What a joke.

Don't forget duct tape and plastic bags.

The sad reality is that it will probably happen in some size and some way sometime before the end of the world....
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Detroitduo
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Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 491
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 194.138.39.56
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 9:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you really want an amazing Nuclear bomb experience, go to the Nuclear Bomb Museum in Hiroshima, Japan. I have never had a more powerful experience than that. They have tons of footage from the bomb explosion, plus artifacts and results afterwards. They have the whole timeline from the creation of the bomb project to selection of cities by the US (including some very interesting letters from the US government) to the day when the U.S. flew over and dropped it. The remainder of the museum shows the aftermath. the first 100,000 people died instantly and then the next 250,000 people died from radiation, burns, lack of food/water, etc. 350,000 people died, because the U.S. wanted to flex their muscles.

The letters I mentioned before say that the U.S. govt. wanted to bomb a major city with alot of population and no warning, because they "wanted to see what would happen."

I was never more disgusted in my life. (and daily reading about G.W. Bush makes me want to throw up.)
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Philm
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Username: Philm

Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 66.77.102.10
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 2:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"this is why we need to keep Nuclear weapons out of Iran and other extremist countries"

Read the previous post, then think again in the context of the current inept administration.

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