Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2006 » Something called, "Independence Township" needs a big hospital « Previous Next »
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5508
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Township hospital plans spark debate

Basic question is: Does Independence Township need a big, new hospital?

By NATALIE LOMBARDO
Of The Oakland Press

Independence Township could be the newest hotbed for hospitals.

There's available property to build on and no hospital in the immediate area - and Interstate 75 would give hospitals a foothold in northern Oakland County. Some might want to diversify, instead of relying solely on downtown locations.

"With the growing population, traffic patterns and increased times of emergencies, it's not a matter of if, it's only a matter of when they put a hospital here," said Dr. James O'Neill, physician and founder of the Clarkston Medical Group, which has served the community with 24-hour care for the past 40 years.

http://www.theoaklandpress.com /stories/021206/loc_2006021202 .shtml
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 568
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 68.250.2.39
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

who cares its the boonies
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Itsjeff
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Post Number: 5509
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Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A $600 million medical care village - including a five-story hospital on 80 to 90 acres at the southeast corner of I-75 and Sashabaw Road - is the most recent proposal for the in-demand territory.

Should boonies get a $600,000,000 hospital?
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 570
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Posted From: 68.250.2.39
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NO I don't think they should get road improvements from older cities and suburbs ether. They chose to live on small 2 lane road with no hospital. But the hospital will be built there because more people have quality health insurance im sure. You don't want to lose money in an old area with poor people.
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The_aram
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Username: The_aram

Post Number: 4686
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.213.175.233
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the anti-suburb rhetoric just boggles my mind sometime.

you people are going to bitch about building a HOSPITAL? come. on. what's next, the people of Independence Township don't deserve nearby police and fire department presence?

Laughable.
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 571
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Posted From: 68.250.2.39
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not anti-suburb just anti-spawl. It's the boonies thats it. I honestly do not care anymore. It will happen that more people will move there. Oh well. Its a fact people will leave the city. Its a fact i may never see effective public transport in detroit(metro area). I have already ceded these facts
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Cris
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Username: Cris

Post Number: 356
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Posted From: 71.227.26.44
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Independence Township is Clarkston, isn't it? I'm surprised they don't have some kind of hospital facility there already. Where do they take the casualties from Pine Knob, er, DTE Energy Music Theatre?
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5510
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Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 5:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When Bette Midler collapsed, she went to Pontiac General. They have emergency centers in north Oakland, but this is a $600 million dollar project. That's unheard of in this area. I think Huron Valley-Sinai cost around $100 million.
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Clark1mt
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Username: Clark1mt

Post Number: 54
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 4.229.15.89
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 5:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would imagine a good chunk of the $600M is for land acquisition.
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Cris
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Username: Cris

Post Number: 358
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Posted From: 71.227.26.44
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Huron Valley-Sinai was built in the 1980s, and they've put on a couple of big multi-million dollar additions since. Not that I have any idea how much hospitals cost these days, but I wonder how much it would cost today. It's also located on a spot that, at the time it was built, was really the "middle of nowhere" and an area that had not yet gone sky high in value. Actually, it still feels like it's in the middle of nowhere. It was quite small originally, and started by a grassroots community group in Milford that was worried about the long distance to any hospital facility from the area.
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Chow
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Username: Chow

Post Number: 257
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Posted From: 68.42.171.71
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem with this sort of sprawl is that it does not fix any problems. By building roads or in this case a hospital further out, we just end up advocating more sprawl. It just allows us to build even further out. Now in a healthy city, this would not be a problem; but we are a high-sprawl, low-growth region. We need to adopt new smart growth policies and renew our interest in creating better quality of life in existing areas. Otherwise we are just going to continue to decentralize.
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 147
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Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

North Oakland county is a prosperous, growing area that as the article mentioned could use this type of facility. The fact is that many people live there and are moving there. Why should they not get a new hospital facility? Also being close to I-75 it will be accessible to the population centers of Flint, Pontiac and even those areas closer to Detroit.
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 120
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 141.213.196.136
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So are you implying Flint and Pontiac don't have hospitals? uh okay. I think they deserve a hospital, but nothing this huge, maybe a better 24 emergency center at most that can adequately meet the current population. I definitely hate sprawl, but I think all people deserve healthcare close by in emergency situations, but nothing like they are asking for. Let's face it, if they want good services or even good roads they should have thought about it ahead of time before building out in the middle of nowhere. I'ts not an argument about suburbs vs cities. It's about living smart.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1635
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Posted From: 69.212.59.169
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't the southeast corner of Sashabaw and I-75 Pine Knob/DTE energy? Why would you put a hospital next to an outdoor concert Venue? I don't think they will co-exist very well.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 123
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Uh oh. I smell a Homeland Security plan brewing.
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 577
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Posted From: 68.250.2.39
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

correct wolverine
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Dsmith
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Username: Dsmith

Post Number: 86
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Posted From: 68.41.202.23
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You guys are fucking morons. Is Lowell planning on changing this site's name to Northof8mileNO.com?
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 125
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Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Only with the morons' consent. :-)
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 148
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Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"So are you implying Flint and Pontiac don't have hospitals? uh okay.

WTF kind of statement is that? Of course there are hospitals in Flint and Pontiac; but it makes a lot of sense to locate between two major areas so that the faciltiy can serve both cities as well as the growing local community. Obviuosly it is still in the planning stage, but I don't see why a business would want to invest 600 million into a hospital unless they knew there was a market.

"I think they deserve a hospital, but nothing this huge, maybe a better 24 emergency center at most that can adequately meet the current population."

Is what others deserve really up to you?


"Let's face it, if they want good services or even good roads they should have thought about it ahead of time before building out in the middle of nowhere. I'ts not an argument about suburbs vs cities. It's about living smart."

Good services and roads? Like in Detroit and Flint? We're not talking about a farming community 100 miles from nowhere. I'm all for improving the city, but the truth is that with our current healthcare system money talks and hospitals are interested in servicing paying customers.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 885
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Posted From: 69.14.122.204
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From Grand Boulevard out to 8 Mile = Sprawl, early 20th-century style.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 1033
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 12:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Genesys Health Park (1997) is only about 10 miles from the new location.
Genesys is at Holly and I 75.
The new hospital is being built by Flint-based McLaren Health Care Corporation

http://msufame.msu.edu/Family_ Practice/healthpk.htm
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 216
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Posted From: 69.212.40.11
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 12:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It must be stopped.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1501
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Posted From: 69.212.59.253
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 12:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Should boonies get a $600,000,000 hospital?



If they pay for it themselves, let 'em have it. Just don't ask taxpayers in the rest of the state to fund the thing.
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 581
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Posted From: 68.250.2.39
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 3:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fury i would call it growth. more population than before. now less population growth but still spreading out
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2331
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.131
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 4:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GO HMOs! Screw the poor and uninsured!
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 5
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Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 1:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The "sprawl" that is so often derided in these forum threads has been around here for a long time. Sometimes it appears that "sprawl" is derided because of its low-density nature, however, it is a free country and not all people like to live in high-density areas. The other argument against "sprawl" seems to stem from a win-lose viewpoint, that is, the central city loses something when low-density growth is allowed to occur on its outskirts.

Using either viewpoint, Rosedale Park would have been considered "sprawl" back when it was built in the early 1920's. If anybody had a problem with it back then, their tongues were very likely stilled when it was annexed by the expanding City of Detroit on September 18, 1925.

I think that what we are really attempting to address with our opinions here is how best to manage growth in the southeast Michigan region so that it is a “win-win” for everyone. Growth in and of itself is a necessary and desirable thing for a region to have - how, where and when that growth occurs can be managed to a certain extent, but it is often shaped by events and physical constraints that are beyond anyone's control or by decisions made many years previous.

An examination of how Detroit and its environs grew can be helpful in understanding why things are the way they are today. Much of the data I've included in the following section comes from a study conducted in the late 1960's by the Doxiadis Associates, of Athens, Greece, in conjunction with Wayne State University and The Detroit Edison Company ("Emergence and Growth of an Urban Region - the Developing Urban Detroit Area, Vols. 1-3").

============================== ====================

"Sprawl" as a phenomenon was first observed on the outskirts of Detroit prior to 1900. As the city's population grew in the late 1800's, the central business district (CBD) expanded from the riverfront up Woodward Ave., encroaching on residential neighborhoods. It is important to note that the natural barrier formed by the Detroit River shaped the direction of this expansion and exaggerated its velocity. The river's proximity also accelerated the conversion of the commercial area along the riverfront into port and warehousing uses.

Those who could afford to move to more attractive surroundings farther out from the CBD did so, and the remaining housing stock, now in mixed-use settings and worth less, became rental housing that soon deteriorated from a lack of maintenance.

Detroit's population grew from 285,000 in 1900 to 466,000 in 1910, a 63% increase. This created even more pressure on the CBD, which responded by expanding horizontally and vertically. The rapidly growing automobile industry, which had located along the railroads on the existing periphery of the city, were soon caught by the expanding commercial areas and leapfrogged by new residential development. Even more residents with the means to move, did so during this period, resulting for the first time in a net population loss within the CBD.

During the period of 1910-1930, Detroit became the "Automobile Capital of the World", greatly increasing the population and wealth of the city. The City's population increased to 994,000 in 1920 and it was 1,569,000 in 1930. During this period, the City of Detroit instituted their first attempts at land-use planning and zoning, but the "horse was already out of the barn" in many areas.

Car registrations nearly quadrupled during the 1920's, enabling even more families to move away from compromised residential areas and live farther from their places of employment in a less dense residential neighborhood. In their place, lower income groups moved into these residential areas which were deemed less than desirable due to their proximity to the expanding commercial and industrial uses.

With Detroit's major transportation arteries having been laid out over the old Indian trails like spokes on half of a wheel, most inbound traffic naturally converged on the hub located in the CBD. With streetcars still as the primary mode of moving people in and out of the CBD prior to the 1920's, this was not a problem since the streetcars would discharge and pick up passengers and move on out of the district. However with the increasing numbers of autos being used during the Roaring 20's, they competed for the same road space as the streetcars, slowing travel time for everyone coming in and out of the CBD, plus they needed to be left in the CBD while their drivers conducted their business. This created terrible congestion in the CBD area and also the need for a new land-use in the CBD, the parking lot.

The CBD responded to the economic boom of the late 1920's as well as the traffic and physical constraints by expanding vertically within the CBD and by jumping north past the manufacturing district to create the New Center area. As a result, even more residential neighborhoods found themselves in the shadow of expanding commercial and industrial areas. Now however, those who could afford to move did not necessarily re-settle at the outskirts of the Detroit city limits - with their mobility, they could choose to live in the outlying suburbs and beyond the reach of annexation. Again, lower income groups would fill the gaps left behind, primarily Eastern European immigrants from 1910-1920 and in equal measures with southern blacks from 1920-1930.

By 1940, Detroit's population had grown to 1,623,000, a 9% increase over the previous 10 years. During that same period, the number of car registrations in the region grew by 26%, despite the Depression Era economy, which put a halt to the expansion of the CBD. However, the additional need for parking, coupled with less need for commercial space, caused an increase in the amount of area dedicated to parking lots in the CBD, which began to negatively affect the look and feel of the CBD.

The 1940-1950 decade saw another huge surge in Detroit's population (26.9%, from 2.38 to 3.02 million), fueled by wartime production in "the Arsenal of Democracy". However, the decline of the CBD continued unabated, as did the quality of its housing stock. Car registrations increased more rapidly than the population, especially in the post-war boom period. The traffic congestion and parking demands in the CBD reached the critical stage. War-time restrictions on building materials prevented new commercial construction and thus could not offset the demand for the additional parking lots which were created in the CBD (by 1950, almost half of the CBD area within the confines of today's Lodge, Fisher and Chrysler Freeways consisted of open spaces and parking lots, double the amount of 20 years earlier). The same war-time building material restrictions contributed to the further deterioration of the housing stock and expansion of slum areas in the city.

Ironically, the automobile industry, which fueled the economic growth of Detroit and southeast Michigan, indirectly contributed to the decline of Detroit's CBD as a result of the congestion and parking demands created by privately owned automobiles purchased with the wages it spawned. Also, the dominance of the auto industry in the region and the high wages they paid helped suppress the creation of a strong, diversified manufacturing and service economy. Furthermore, the post-war growth of passenger car ownership and daily use contributed to the demise of streetcar service in the city of Detroit.

It is doubtful that there was any conspiracy by General Motors (or any other corporation) to get rid of the streetcars in Detroit. Their demise was simply the result of two factors, first the need to improve traffic flow on existing streets that were choked with passenger cars and streetcars and secondly the poor management of the quasi-public, over-built and over-staffed Detroit Street Railways (DSR).

For example, the 1947 switch from streetcar to buses increased throughput from 2500 to 3500 vehicles per hour on Grand River at Quincy:
http://www.trolleybuses.net/ds rdot/jpg/usa_m_det_ad_timken_1 94709.jpg
A 1949 report on the DSR written by the Detroit News pointed out the long-standing problems and mismanagement at the DSR:
http://www.trolleybuses.net/ds rdot/jpg/usa_m_det_art_whatswr ongwiththedsr_194904.jpg

In the late 1950's, Detroit used the available Federal Interstate System Highway funds to build expressways through the city and into the CBD in an attempt to revive the failing CBD by eliminating the reliance on the obsolete radial system of major arterials. However, this proved to be a flawed strategy, since the expressways wiped out many neighborhoods in close proximity to the CBD, further hastening the decline of the CBD.

A significant event that facilitated growth in the region was when the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department (DWSD) completed their Northeast Water Treatment Plant in 1956 to supply water to customers in northeast Detroit and the northern suburbs. In 1974, the DWSD finished a new water intake in Lake Huron along with a new water treatment plant, both near Lexington, MI. This project has enabled the DWSD to ultimately provide water service to four million people in 126 communities throughout southeast Michigan.

============================== ====================

We need to recognize that the site for Detroit was determined by French fur traders, who knew that it was an ideal location for a trading post since it was at the intersection of six Indian trails and it fronted on a narrow, defensible and navigable river. If only they had the foresight to know that in the future:

a) the land on the opposite side of the river would become part of a different country, forcing the growth of the future city to the north and west.
b) the major roads that would be built along those converging Indian trails would cause untenable congestion in the future central business district
c) railroads and Interstate Highways would become the dominant methods for long distance transport and that a major east-west transport route for commerce in the USA would run not through Detroit and Michigan but rather seventy miles to the south, limiting Detroit's ability to sustain its early and natural role as a transportation hub

Having said all this, we can continue to attempt an "us vs. them" dialogue and curse the darkness or we can choose to light a candle and look for ways to work together to solve our problems. As you can infer from my mini-history lesson above, many of Detroit's problems are structural and were evident and festering long before the race riots of 1943 and 1967, before the loss of the streetcar system, before “urban renewal”, before the rise in the crime rate, before the decline of the school system, before the "white-flight" of the 1960's and 70's............
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Chow
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Username: Chow

Post Number: 258
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Posted From: 68.42.171.71
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 1:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I doesn't matter if we have a history of sprawl. At this time, we are a low-growth, high-sprawl region. This just continues our decentralization and will only hurt the region in the future.

If the region was growing, it would be a different situation. But that isn't the case.
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Dsmith
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Username: Dsmith

Post Number: 87
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Posted From: 68.41.202.23
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 3:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mikeg, that was an absolutely tremendous post. Thank you.
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 494
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Posted From: 209.240.205.61
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 4:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtown SE Michigan-atcha.

So if Big Beaver is downtown, would Independance Twp and Auburn Hills be midtown SE Michigan with I-75 serving as main street?
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

".... sprawl.... just continues our decentralization and will only hurt the region in the future. If the region was growing, it would be a different situation. But that isn't the case."

Huh? SEMCOG figures show that our region's population grew 1.7% from 2000 to 2005. Granted, that is only one-third the national rate, but it is still positive growth in the face of some of the toughest economic times this region has ever faced. Also, the city of Detroit led the way in 2005 with more new residential building permits issued than any other community in SE Michigan.

This kind of mind-set is counter productive - "sprawl" happened and its outer boundaries aren't going to contract. A dense central city that choked on its own growth in the first half of the twentieth century cannot be recreated by simply preventing growth elsewhere in the region.

The competition isn't between the city of Detroit and the suburbs, it is between our region and those in high-growth states elsewhere.

What needs to happen is for us to do whatever it takes (without burdening future generations) to make our region and communities more attractive to investment decision-makers - and then see to it that the construction we do get will occur as infill or redevelopment in established areas.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 336
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.210.161
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem Chow is refering to is we're that eating up land at a much faster rate than our population is growing


quote:

Detroit’s suburbs are gobbling up land at a pace six to eight times more quickly than population growth, faster than almost any other major American metropolitan region.



http://www.mlui.org/growthmana gement/fullarticle.asp?fileid= 16867
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 856
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.18
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wow mikeg, I had no idea that cities grew over time. /sarcasm

this is sprawl, the bad kind, the unsustainable kind, slash and burn sprawl, the disposable society that SE michigan has become.......lower income people moving in? house too small? house not "cool enough" too many strip malls? traffic gettin ya down? just move out another 10 miles, throw some houses up on a corn field and then complain you don't have any of the convnieniences of the city!
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1507
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.236.181.8
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mikeg:
You're relatively new to the forum so I'll fogive you for a few things. You probably aren't aware of the fact that almost everyone on the forum is a high school graduate or that the majority of have college or graduate level degrees.

Please save the 10th grade history lessons for 10th graders.

The underlying issue against sprawl is that land consumption is happening at much faster rate than populations growth.

From an environmental standpoint, this causes problems for the entire region as wetlands and forests are eaten up, the ecosystem is disturbed and wild animals are displaced.

From an economic standpoint, it creates a highly inefficent use of resources. In theory, if the property owners financed this sprawl on their own then much of the drawbacks could be overlooked.

The problem is that all too often the developers and property owners want their new roads, sewers and infrastructure subsidised; thereby creating a higher tax burden on the rest of the region.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I had no idea that cities grew over time. /sarcasm"

My point was how and why a particular city grew over time. I'm sorry it went over your head.

"....eating up land...."

What is the highest and best use for this land? This is the test that government must apply, by law, when setting land use regulations over private property. There aren't any comparable legal tools available for government to use for limiting the pace of raw land development - instead they can only "steer" it through the installation of water and sewer utilities. It makes it kind of hard to "steer" new development, when the City of Detroit expanded their water system 30 years ago to 125 other communities in the region.

Regarding the Township that is the subject of this thread, the soil in this area has never been very suitable for agriculture. By 1940, Oakland County had less than less than 25% of the land in the southeast corner being farmed, while Independence Twp. was in the 45-65% range. By 1960, farmland in Independence Twp. had declined to the 25-45% range (I don't have any more recent data available to me but I am sure it is under 25% today).

Should land in Independence Twp. have to sit idle if an owner wishes to develop it? That kind of a position cannot be successfully defended in court, especially if utilities are available.

My point is that the current laws in Michigan tie the hands of government regarding limitation of new development. If you don't like "sprawl, the bad kind", work to get the laws changed. Internecine sniping accomplishes nothing.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6730
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MikeG - Have you given any consideration to the economic consequences to the region of major sprawl with no appreciable growth in population.

Results - More hospitals, more schools, more infrastructure, more EMS, more, more, more. ALl while the tax base and disposable income for the region remains stagnant.

Great planning. Makes wonderful sense to me.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 887
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gee, what do people who really, really, hate sprawl and decentralization DO, anyway?

A lot of them move to New York City or Chicago. They go and live in a brownstone or a two-flat and take the subway to work, to go shopping, or to the ball game. They get their fresh produce in mom-and-pop markets down the street from their apartment, and drink in cozy corner taverns. They walk down ethnic neighborhood streets and buy food from street vendors.

Sounds great, doesn’t it? Well... obviously, you get very, very little of that kind of lifestyle if you choose to live in the Detroit area. And you will continue to get very little of it during your lifetimes.

My point? Metro Detroit is stuck with its current paradigm for the forseeable future. Our local culture discourages walkability and encourages automobile travel (and plenty of parking). You can bitch and moan about the way it is, but it's not going to change.

The best that an urban person can do in this area is find his/her own neighborhood and do his/her part to build it up (as many who post on this board are doing, to their credit).

In the meantime, outside the city gates, sprawl will continue to happen. The people out there will demand police services, fire protection, more accessible water, better roads, and yes, bigger hospitals.

Some of that infrastructure expense will be borne on the backs of taxpayers who live "closer in." That's the way it's been for a century. Life isn't always fair, right?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6732
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed Fury - Many of us stay in the city knowing that to be a sick reality. If it weren't for family I suspect that some may have fled. In the mean time I will support Detroit business, I will stay in the city and I will fight (in my opinion) the good fight that very well may be a losing battle.

I guess I will get the last laugh when the current booming areas begin to see abandonment. Will it help the State and the region? No. Will it prove a point of how many in the State see land and cities as disposable? yep.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 889
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1, kudos to you for your realistic outlook. I don't belittle those who are truly trying to make Detroit more livable. A lot of positive action is being taken.

But the sprawl issue, is, as you said, "a losing battle."

I believe that those who care about Detroit will make a difference over a long period of time. "Baby steps," as they say.

(Message edited by Fury13 on February 14, 2006)
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fnemecek - I apologize if my long post came across as condescending.

Instead of sharing some data that was new to me and which I thought might be useful to other forum members (who are obviously just as well educated as I am), I probably should have just joined the fray by tossing out an opinion laced with a few sarcastic remarks.

MikeG
---------------------
As a municipal planning comissioner, whenever someone at a public hearing voiced a concern for the fate of wildlife living on a nearby parcel being considered for rezoning, I would tell them, "they will adapt, just like they did when your dwelling was built".
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 857
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.18
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I probably should have just joined the fray by tossing out an opinion laced with a few sarcastic remarks."

is there any other way?! :-)
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1508
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.236.173.121
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 1:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Fnemecek - I apologize if my long post came across as condescending.

Instead of sharing some data that was new to me and which I thought might be useful to other forum members (who are obviously just as well educated as I am), I probably should have just joined the fray by tossing out an opinion laced with a few sarcastic remarks.



Mikeg:
Let's start with the data that was new to you. Since we haven't met, please allow me to verify a few assumptions.

(a) You're at least 18 years of age, right?
(b) You're originally from southeastern Michigan, right?
(c) And you're just now learning that Detroit dramatically expanded in the time frame between 1920 - 1950???

If you're still a teenager or a transplant, please accept my apologies.

If you're a native who is 18+, I encourage you to pay a visit to your high school history teachers and tell that they owe the school district a refund.

As far as posts that are opinion based with a few sarcastic remarks, you can join the frey that way.

Or you can address the issue of land consumption happening at a rate that far exceeds population growth.

Or you can address the environmental issues posed by land consumption.

Or you can explain why the rest of Michigan should subsidise the infrastructure of Independence Township.

Or you can recycle randomn facts from a 10th grade history class.

Your choice.

quote:

As a municipal planning comissioner, whenever someone at a public hearing voiced a concern for the fate of wildlife living on a nearby parcel being considered for rezoning, I would tell them, "they will adapt, just like they did when your dwelling was built".



Some adapt; others die off.

The ones that die off pose an ethical challenge for humans.

The ones that adapt by moving into area occupied by humans (e.g., the deer that entered a store in Brighton) pose both economic challenges as well as health & safety concerns for humans.

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