Discuss Detroit Ľ Archives - Beginning January 2006 Ľ Why no Belle Isle Conservancy? ę Previous Next Ľ
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Blondy
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Username: Blondy

Post Number: 949
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.212.173.138
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 9:08 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With all the talk of CM Park being successful as it is a private park...it makes me wonder. Why isn't Belle Isle a private park?

Or, a state run park?

Shed some light for me please.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1593
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 9:13 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit will never give it up.

State won't take it over now that they are building and will have to maintain the new park on the river.
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Gianni
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Username: Gianni

Post Number: 209
Registered: 05-2004
Posted From: 209.104.144.90
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:40 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Or at least some aspects of the park, like the aquarium, skating pond, canoes, horseback riding, could be set up under something like the CM Conservancy. There was a lot of big money for the Campus Martius park, and I believe the river walk is also funded and maintained by a conservancy. I doubt that kind of money is available for Belle Isle right now, but it sounds like a great idea to me. It's not like the City would be giving it away to the suburbs or the state. If CM and Riverwalk can be set up like this, why not some or all of Belle Isle. I think something like that happened in Central Park, NYC.

One thing I never understood about the Belle Isle Aquarium controversy is this: There was a bond issue approved by the voters for, I believe, the Belle Isle Zoo. The Aquarium was part of the zoo. You can see the results of this in that there is new construction for the Nature Center on Belle Isle. Why couldn't some of this money have been used for the upgrades needed on the aquarium? I have never heard any explanation for this.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 402
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 12:44 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perhaps Skulker has the answer .....
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Gumby
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Username: Gumby

Post Number: 885
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 204.39.227.202
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:21 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker wants all the buildings in the park knocked down because he hates them.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5529
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:22 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perhaps Darwinism is a whiney biotch who has yet to contribute anything of substance to this forum except for his opinions, most of which are uninformed.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1598
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:28 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No itsjeff, Darwinism believes he is a martyr.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 403
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:32 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

itsjeff: I don't remember having any run-ins with you, but the above statement suggests that you are trying to antagonize and being a crotch-sniffer. If you choose to antagonize, I am all game. Otherwise, you should cut it out.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5530
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:32 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

<---virtually bitchslapping Darwinism.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 404
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:35 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

<--- SOB itsjeff, I'll bitchslap you so bad, your mom won't recognize you from a pile of poop.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5531
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:38 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"pile of poop?" What, are you 10 years old?
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 405
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:39 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I could be 5-years-old, if you would be 4.
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Wmuchris
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Username: Wmuchris

Post Number: 204
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.58.36.2
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:51 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My mom says I'm the best looking guy in school.

Guys, this is getting Ridiculous.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6763
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:53 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

who has yet to contribute anything of substance to this forum except for his opinions, most of which are uninformed.




For a minute there I thought you were talking about me.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3547
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 3:33 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, here's an answer...folks living in Detroit have not stood up and led a grass roots effort to create one.

NYC residents did it for Central Park, Pittsburgh residents did it for a four park system as have many other cities. I'd love to see Detroiters strongly investigate this potential for Belle Isle.

This is a best practices / benchmarking exercise that could easily be adapted to Detroit. Note this is a call to adapt a policy / program to local conditions and not a critique or suggestion that there is something fundamentally wrong with Detroiters or that we should instead attempt to become Pittsbugh or NYC.

Darwinism: Dude. Give it up. You seem unable to post anything useful or interesting anymore, but merely sad little things like you have posted above. Like Mark Cuban said...."Yeah, I own him." More ranting just makes you look more foolish.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1599
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 3:43 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Darwinism: Dude. Give it up. You seem unable to post anything useful or interesting anymore, but merely sad little things like you have posted above.




In defense of Darwinism, he has never been able to post anything useful or interesting. It is not something new.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 406
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 3:45 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

...but merely sad little things like you have posted above.





quote:

Like Mark Cuban said...."Yeah, I own him." More ranting just makes you look more foolish.




What in the world are you talking about ? First of all, I am chiming in to Blondy that perhaps you have an answer to her question - which you evidently did, as displayed above. How is that defined as being sad little things ? And how is that ranting ? Let me tell you something ..... the ones who are foolish and looking like idiots are the ones who are here antagonizing others and ruining fellow forumers' threads. I can say that I have not done that to Blondy or to anybody at all throughout this entire forum. So, what do you have to say now ?
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5532
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 3:48 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I stand by my earlier assertion.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 407
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 3:51 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

merchantgander: Seeing that you are an active participant in HotfudgeDetroit, I must say you sure have lots of useful and interesting contributions to DetroitYes. I wonder if you make the same comment to people like Bob_Cosgrove and Hornwrecker too. My guess is you probably say that they have never been able to post anything useful or interesting as well, and that is not something new. HotfudgeDetroit is the perfect fit for you.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1601
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 4:10 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darwinism is that the thanks I get for trying to help you out. I get your back with Skulker and you try to insult me, shame on you.

Now let get a few thing straight.

Donít compare yourself to Bob_Cosgrove or Hornwrecker you have nothing in common with them.

Secondly, I donít try to hide the fact I post on HFD. That is why I use the same username over there. That site is extremely educational and entertaining. Iím not the only person on DY that post on that website, Iím just one of the few that uses the same user name.

I apologize if I treat you like a idiot, I cannot help it you make it too easy.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1602
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 4:11 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As far as HFD being a perfect fit for me, I take that as a compliment.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3549
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 4:15 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darwinism:
Your post above that engendered a reaction from others (and me) started off in a very similar vein to other posts you have made on many other threads the vast majority of which then continue on by being sarcastic and caustic and personally attacking me. You followed the start of your post on this thread with an ellipse that implies to the reader "well you know the rest", i.e. Skulkers an asshole who once called me a poopyhead wah wah wah.....

The fact that others picked it up immediately and reacted to it ought to give you pause that you are beginning to sound like a broken record and that folks are getting very tired of it appearing on threads when no other useful information is posted by you.


To flesh out a response to Blondy...
The majority of the urban park conservancies that have come about have been community driven with foundation and corporate endowment support coming along later. We have the models in Detroit that could be easily duplicated. The sense I get is that the Riverfront Conservancy, which, lets be honest, is functionally an arm of GM hit the ground running before any conservancy for BI was realistically considered. The fact that the conservancy was well planned, well conceived and had serious GM mojo behind it, allowed it to gobble up a ton of foundation and corporate moeny to do their thing. It would be very difficult to create a new conservancy for BI that would compete with the DRFC for funding.

I think it would be a far far better thing for the DRFC to move on expaning programming and bailiwick to include BI before moving westward as it is now. The west side will be in flux for another ten to fifteen years while the BiNatioanl border crossing task force sorts its shit out and gets through law suits. In the mean time BI languishes....

So why is DRFC not doing anything about BI and yet seems intent on building a massive park to the west of Riverfrnt Towers?

Simple. DRFC is GMs way to prevent competing riverfront development. GM owns 16 acres of land they are trying to redevelop and don't want competing developments now or in the future to their property. The DRFC is still trying to twist the MDNR in to trying to get more of the casino land away from the City so the City can't build out more of its land and compete with GMs 16 acres.

http://www.pittsburghparks.org /

http://www.tpl.org/tier3_cd.cf m?content_item_id=11050&folder _id=175
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 408
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 4:22 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Darwinism is that the thanks I get for trying to help you out. I get your back with Skulker and you try to insult me, shame on you.




I must have overlooked what you have done for me. If that is the case, I owe you one. And most certainly shame on me for being ungrateful, to have bitten the hand that feeds me.


quote:

I apologize if I treat you like a idiot, I cannot help it you make it too easy.




Don't have to apologize because it goes both ways, as I often return the favor as well.

Speaking of HFD, it is surprising to see people actually critisize Sharmaal and Detroit Synergy. Well ..... I guess since the site is extremely 'educational and entertaining', it shouldn't be that surprising after all.

Now, can you all just get back to Blondy's topic ?
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 409
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 4:33 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker: I am having trouble reading your small font. As much as I can make the message out to be, I have one simple thing to say ..... I have yet to personally attack you, unless it was reactionary and unless you have been antagonistic and condescending. So, stop the bs about people picking up this and that, and folks are getting tired of this and that. Aren't you all satisfied now that you have completely fucked up Blondy's thread ? I have seen the same attitude problems from the select few elite individuals over the past few weeks ruining Mauser's thread, and recently Dove7's thread ..... and a few times in the past Alexei's thread.

Why don't you all let Blondy's thread go on from here on without interruption.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1604
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 4:43 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darwinism, I'm keeping score at home too so how many threads have been ruined. Should I include this thread or is it still salvageable.
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Lakesuperior
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Username: Lakesuperior

Post Number: 110
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.77.170.94
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:03 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

one of my dream jobs is to help run, and to help fundraise for, a reinvigorated belle isle. sigh...
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 410
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:07 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I sure hope it is salvageable because Blondy doesn't deserve the contrary.

Belle Isle was a very popular destination for families back then. The yatch club was very prestigious and the casino was also there to provide activities for many who visits. There used to be an aquarium and a zoo that are sufficiently well received by the public. I know a number of older generation Detroiters who have very fond memories spending quality time with their parents and grandparents at Belle Isle during weekends and school breaks.

I am curious what can the people of the city do to reclaim such a jewel on the Detroit river, so that it can be returned to its former glory. Privatisation is perhaps an option, but what steps do we need to make in order to expedite the process. Or do the people of Detroit just sit and wait until some corporate entity wishes to pitch in and start a conservancy ?


quote:

... folks living in Detroit have not stood up and led a grass roots effort to create one.




Well, I guess if we care enough to discuss it here, perhaps there are folks who are willing to stand up and get the wheels in motion.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5533
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:29 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You make it sound like a cess pool. Belle Isle is in good repair. For the past three or four years it has been mowed regularly and thoroughly picked-up every Sunday evening. There's little to no graffiti any more. And now that the old stables are gone, I can't think of any structure that's a particular eyesore.

The conservatory, zoo and nature center need upgrades, but even then, Belle Isle can still be considered magnificent.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3551
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:32 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I am curious what can the people of the city do to reclaim such a jewel on the Detroit river, so that it can be returned to its former glory.




Try exploring some of the links above already posted.

And some of these....

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/ 0613/p01s01-ussc.html

http://www.post-gazette.com/ne wslinks/19990606parks.asp

http://www.urban.org/pubs/park s/

http://www.cityparksphila.org/ about/
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6768
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:33 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

For the past three or four years it has been mowed regularly and thoroughly picked-up every Sunday evening.




Is itsjeff talking about himself? :-)

I agree, there is a very visible improvement over the last few years. Still a lot to do but alot has been done.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 411
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:36 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

You make it sound like a cess pool. Belle Isle is in good repair. For the past three or four years it has been mowed regularly and thoroughly picked-up every Sunday evening. There's little to no graffiti any more. And now that the old stables are gone, I can't think of any structure that's a particular eyesore.

The conservatory, zoo and nature center need upgrades, but even then, Belle Isle can still be considered magnificent.




Blondy, perhaps Belle Isle is doing just fine without the need to be a private park or a state park after all. According to the post above, if the city can pool together enough funds to upgrade the zoo, nature center and conservatory, Belle Isle could be back in business in no time.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3553
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:40 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Belle Isle could be back in business in no time.




Belle Isle is still a vibrant an active place that is meeting the needs of the vast majority of its users. It could use some upgrades and it could become a braoder reaching amenity, but it does meet it daily uses well.

I don't understand why anyone would consider it "out of business" at this point.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 412
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Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:50 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The way I see it, and the way the people whom I have spoken to see it, Belle Isle could certainly accomodate more people ..... way more people. Vibrant and active from the memories of the folks I talked to may well have a different quantifiable perspective compared to the vibrant and active from the Belle Isle of Summer 2005 or Spring 2006.

If Belle Isle is in good shape, and is meeting the needs of its users/visitors, then we shouldn't worry about it being state-run or private or federal, do we ? In that case, Blondy has been shed the light that she had requested in the OP.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3554
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Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:56 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Vibrant and active from the memories of the folks I talked to may well have a different quantifiable perspective compared to the vibrant and active from the Belle Isle of Summer 2005 or Spring 2006.




I would wager the only substantive difference is the color of the skin of the current users versus the users of the past.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 413
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 6:07 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In full disclosure, I talked to various individuals from various backgrounds ..... Jewish Detroiters, Polish Detroiters, Chaldeans and Arab-Americans, African-Americans, Hispanics, Asians, Irish-American Detroiters ..... so I believe the difference of viewpoints should cover the spectrum from Whites, Black, Yellow, Brown, Carmel and so on. Therefore, the substantive difference between then and now isn't so much the color of the skin(it is one of the difference seen, but not as high up on the list as you had wagered), but instead the number ..... pure head count of people spending time with their families on the island.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1605
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 68.61.196.207
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 7:04 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BI has the best driving range around.
Allot of the infrastructure has been updated.
There are always a lot of people there during the summer.

While BI is not perfect it definitely not failing I would give it a B-.
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Sister
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Username: Sister

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 7:31 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a person who is on Belle Isle several times a week, Belle Isle is packed on Saturdays and Sundays. I often hear that no one uses Belle Isle and I agree with a previous post that people are talking about color not numbers. There are many people from all over the metropolitan area and country that visit Belle Isle. Belle Isle is looking better and it is a credit to city employees that the lawns are mowed and trash picked up. Belle Isle could greatly benefit from a conservancy that would raise money for infrastructure such as sewers and roads and for endowing its historic structures. To totally upgrade the conservatory alone would take over $15 million. There are several comfort stations that need repair in addition to the structures near the White House. There is an historic barn back there that should be preserved. The casino, peace tower, boat club, fountain, etc. all take lots of money to keep them up let alone improve them. Hopefully, this is something that is coming soon.
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Blondy
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Username: Blondy

Post Number: 954
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.212.173.138
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 8:11 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you all for your responses.

I certainly would never call BI "run down"....

But there is much room for improvement.

I am also curious. There is the "Turkey Grill" (I think that is what it is called)....how is a private business allowed to operate on the island?

What ever happened to all the Flynn Pavillion Hoopla?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6771
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Posted From: 66.19.21.191
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:31 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

TG,I believe signed a deal with the city to be able to run the business on the island.

It is the same Turkey Grille people as on Woodward north of the new center area.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3556
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.34
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 1:10 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

but instead the number ..... pure head count of people spending time with their families on the island.




Interesting, because I see a lot more people using BI now than I did 15 years ago when I first moved near downtown and the numbers seem far greater than when I I visitied BI as a sprat with my grandma 30 years ago.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2308
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 71.144.119.72
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 1:13 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There isn't a BI Conservancy because that would "equal" "privatization", "Whites/suburbanites taking over", and/or "taking it away from Detroiters/Black people".
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 414
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.209.187.90
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 6:40 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Interesting, because I see a lot more people using BI now than I did 15 years ago when I first moved near downtown and the numbers seem far greater than when I I visitied BI as a sprat with my grandma 30 years ago.




I am not disputing your own personal experience. I am simply stating from polls and studies that we have conducted every weekend over Summer 2005, Summer 2004 and Summer 2003 as well every other weekend during Spring and Fall of 2005, 2004 and 2003. These data are from as diverse of a demographic as can be acquired and as diverse of the time of the day as possible as well.

If the people of this thread are witnessing a more positive environment in terms of the number of head counts spending time on Belle Isle, hey I am all thumbs up. Believe me, I would love for Belle Isle to be packed to the brim as well with every parking space occupied and every grassy patch occupied by Detroiters having a wonderful time. And if that is already the situation now, as shown in testimonials from Sister and Skulker, then I am a happy-camper.

Organizations such as Friends of Belle Isle, Friends of the Detroit River and Friends of the Belle Isle Acquarium should read this thread and see the positive accounts ..... I am certain they will be very delighted.
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 519
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.212.169.194
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 7:42 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perhaps your polls and studies should include driving across MacArthur.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 415
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.209.187.90
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 8:30 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

East_detroit: That was funny. I guess we must have erred over the past 3 years collecting data driving across Mackinac Bridge instead of the MacArthur Bridge. Oh boy ! All those manhours spent on analysis and interviews and research done for our client who wishes to know about Belle Isle. Geez, we sure f*#ked this one up bad by not even getting ourselves onto the island physically to do what we are paid to do. Time to issue a refund. :-)
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Blondy
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Username: Blondy

Post Number: 955
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.212.173.138
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 9:12 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darwinism,
Can you tell us who your client is?
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1607
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 9:25 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was a study a couple of years ago, that stated that the city needed to invest 200 mil into BI to bring it back to its glory years. I did a Google search to try and find the study but wasn't able to come up with anything. The were a few stories about federal and state dollars that were going to be used to fix the canals and some other infrastructure improvements that were going on but not that study. Maybe someone with better search skills will be able to find it.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 416
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.209.187.90
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 9:51 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Can you tell us who your client is?




Blondy: Our consultancy agreements prevent the revealing of our clients' identities unless they choose to do so on their own via press releases. I can tell you that it is a private philanthropy who is interested to explore the possibilities of Belle Isle being a privatized park equipped with a visitor center and so on.
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Detrola
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Username: Detrola

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 69.14.28.209
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 9:53 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belle Isle has seen several upgrades in recent years. New driving range, new big slide, water slide near the bath house, new playscape. The Detroit Recreation Department does a great job of maintaining the park with ever dwindling resources. The question is how much longer can the city afford to do this.

The vast number of posts on this forum seem to ignore the fact that detroit is fast running out of money. In late 04 nearly all part time workers in the recreation department had their health benefits eliminated. In early 05 several hundred lost their jobs. In late 05 the city began closing several of it's recreation centers. Last month more rec dept employees lost their jobs. By years end 20-25 of the city's 30 or so recreation centers will close. All these cut are to deal with budget shortfalls of past years. The tax base continues to erode. The cuts made this year will not be enough to solve the current budget problems. Next year could be worse.

The county or state park system may end up running belle isle by default. The point may come when the city/recreation dept simply can not afford to maintain or police the island. Sorry to paint such a grim picture. Hard times are here and it will get worse. The friends of belle isle and other such groups through out the city need to agressively pursue fund raising and corporate partnerships. We sit upon the precipice. If action is not taken soon several of the things we love about the city will go the way of the acquarium.
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Sharmaal
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Username: Sharmaal

Post Number: 728
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 136.2.1.103
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 9:56 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amazing Driving range! I was wondering the other day when it's gonna open back up for the year. I've taken a bunch of people there and everyone says it's the nicest they've ever seen. And it's ALWAYS busy.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1608
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 10:04 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last year it open in early May.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 417
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.209.187.90
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 10:29 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detrola is absolutely correct. The resources just aren't sufficient to do Belle Isle justice.

When we were approached in 2002 regarding this study, I was presented with an outline of their plans ..... as mentioned above, a visitor center ..... on top of that, there would also be golf cart rentals, regular/tandem bike rentals, skating rink, skateboard/halfpipe ramps and etc. All in all, a place to attract families to get together for quality time enjoying fun activities.

With the current city budget situation, the prospects of Belle Isle will be difficult to say. Isn't there a thread about the Detroit Zoo and budget problems already here on DetroitYes ?
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Atl_runner
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Username: Atl_runner

Post Number: 1819
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.209.118.72
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 10:46 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll be Tri'ing on Belle Isle this June. After I put the Island to that real life test, I'll have an informed opinon on it's true state. A swim off her banks, A few loops around her on a bike, followed by a run. What better way to get a good feel. My state of the Isle address will be released shortly thereafter.

ok, really. The last few times I was there, the Island looked great. IMO, the Island is about 65 percent of what she should be. It would be nice to see a conservancy though. One with real power and ambition.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3557
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 11:03 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

If the people of this thread are witnessing a more positive environment in terms of the number of head counts spending time on Belle Isle, hey I am all thumbs up.




I would have thought that some one who has spent three years allegedly conducting polls on BI would have been observant enough to recognize that they have an increasingly greater number of people to poll.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 418
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.209.187.90
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 11:14 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I would have thought that some one who has spent three years allegedly conducting polls on BI would have been observant enough to recognize that they have an increasingly greater number of people to poll.




From the choice of words above, I can most certainly claim the statement below.


quote:

Like Mark Cuban said...."Yeah, I own him."




And for a few short hours, there appears to be no interruptions to Blondy's thread. I guess there are individuals who just needs to be the center attention at all times.

(Message edited by darwinism on February 17, 2006)
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3558
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Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 11:32 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just questioning your observational skills.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1611
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.164.127
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 11:40 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darwinism

Is it possible for you to post the 2002 study.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2731
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.65
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 11:50 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just don't touch the eastern end of the island in all these "improvement" schemes, alright?

All this talk about making it better has me wondering, what if the people who currently use it like it quiet, a respite from the big city? What if they don't want to see if jammed full of cars, with people occupying every square inch of the island?

What then?
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Wmuchris
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Username: Wmuchris

Post Number: 221
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.58.36.2
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:12 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hamtramck Steve seems to be asking what is known in some circles as the Wilderness Question.

http://scholar.google.com/url? sa=U&q=http://leopold.wilderne ss.net/pubs/269.pdf

Is it better to have a more authentic wilderness environment? Or is it important for people to be able to enjoy it in it's natural state.

Writers like Aldo Leopold have an interesting perspective on this question.
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2309
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 70.228.59.156
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 3:49 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Merchant, I remember that study as well. Even Dept of Recreation head Beckham quoted from it.
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River_rat
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Username: River_rat

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.166.44.44
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 4:24 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Blondy, every time there is a Belle Isle thread we have to hear from the tree-huggers, the joggers, the zoology and aquarium gang, the recreationists and just about everybody else with a pet project for the island.

Every thread I have made the same offer on behalf of my group. Privatize it. What are we, some commie country? Stop all the polls and politics, AND, at the same time, solve some of fiscal problems of Detroit.

My group has a standing offer to buy Belle Isle, with the bridge, for 1/2 billion dollars ($500,000,000) We will even let the DYC and USCG stay!

Detroit has enough parks anyway.

the river rat (formerly known by a different name on the forum, but too many people too angry at me, so i'm starting anew)
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 822
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.141
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 4:41 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

the river rat (formerly known by a different name on the forum, but too many people too angry at me, so i'm starting anew)




I think I know who you are, and I must commend you on not ending every post with a tee hee, or a LOL.

Admirable restraint shown, sir or madam!

See, I can be just as big an ass as the rest of you.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 419
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.209.187.90
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 4:47 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, I am envious of the many forumers who are professionals in their respective jobs and still have so much time to post on here every minute of every day.

Anyway, to answer some of the questions above without violating any NDA clause per se because as with other forumers, my words here are solely my own, personal opinion and shall not be representative of the company where I work.


quote:

Just questioning your observational skills.




Well, you may have to be questioning that for a long time and have that thought linger in your mind. I do not micro-manage my staff and tag along with them every single time when we have a project/study such as this. I trust that they will report their findings during our weekly meetings. I have gone on site with them and perform field work together with them quite a few times, and I did not observe any inconsistency in their poll results on Belle Isle. Besides, we have more than two dozen consultancy projects going simultaneously and the Belle Isle study was just one of them. There were projects related to private and parochial schools, public schools, health care, insurance, commercial real estate, residential real estate, IT services, sports apparel/footwear, hospitality industry, food manufacturing, farming/agricultural, banking and so on. My observational skills are doing just fine, thank you for being concerned.


quote:

Is it possible for you to post the 2002 study.




The philantrophy group approached us in 2002, but work didn't began until Spring of 2003. The results of the study are also the exclusive property of the client and I certainly do not have the liberty to post the results. I can say that the study report was extensive (a few hundred pages for each year) and covers many minute details including the point brought up by Steve above.


quote:

All this talk about making it better has me wondering, what if the people who currently use it like it quiet, a respite from the big city? What if they don't want to see if jammed full of cars, with people occupying every square inch of the island?

What then?




Steve, I can assure you that you are not the only one who felt that way. The methodologies of the study covers the exact parameter that you have expressed - what if we want Belle Isle to remain pristine so that one can get away from the hustle and bustle of the city. Some other parameters include a timed entry and exit data whereby a count of how many vehicles and persons enter and leave the island within a specific time frame. There was also a parameter indicating what people are doing while they are there and how long do they stay. There was a parameter in which ages of people are recorded and how many people are there solo, as a couple and as a family. There were dozens of parameters involved, and Steve, there were even people who wishes no cars are allowed on the island. All these things are accounted for. So, Steve, your thoughts and opinion have been represented in the results.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6779
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 4:49 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

$500,000,000 equates to about 500K per acre with about 6 miles of shoreline. Not that great of a deal for the city unless the deal is that it stay as a park, no private development.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 420
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.209.187.90
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 4:51 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River-rat: Did your offer get turned-down ? What is the status now ? Are they at least considering your group's $500 Million offer ?
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River_rat
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Username: River_rat

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.166.44.44
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:12 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, the offer letter has 23 pages of legal stipulations and clauses among which, of course, requires the City of Detroit to cede any claim for taxation, control and dominion to a new legal entity. When presented several years ago to the office of a previous mayor, it was dismissed. So when a new Belle Isle thread comes up, I repeat the offer. Obviously, it would cease to be a part of Detroit and that would enable our group to establish a nw municipality. The problems would then be negotiating with the State government, but altogether a meaningful offer.

Earlier in the thread someone said, "Detroit will never give it up." Who knows?

the river rat
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6780
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:20 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a fiscally conservative person that supports privatization of the zoo, Eastern Market and most city entities I think the thought of selling BI to a private entity is outrageous.


quote:

Well, the offer letter has 23 pages of legal stipulations and clauses among which, of course, requires the City of Detroit to cede any claim for taxation, control and dominion to a new legal entity.




So is the intent that it will be a city/township like entity unto itself. How can the city justify that to the citizens?


quote:

The problems would then be negotiating with the State government, but altogether a meaningful offer.




I completely disagree.
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River_rat
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Username: River_rat

Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.166.44.44
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:20 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker--never, ever have used the two cyberspeak items you cite.



the river rat
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River_rat
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Username: River_rat

Post Number: 5
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Posted From: 68.166.44.44
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:24 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1----"How can the city justify that to the citizens?" re: privatization of Belle Isle

Answer=$$$$


the river rat
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

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Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:26 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So if I offered you enough for your family would you be willing to give them to me.

There is fiscal responsibility and there are short term fixes. This is a short term fix that is not in the best interest of the citizens of Detroit. Won't ever happen. I will guarantee you that.

Privatization for other aspect so the city, however need to be considered and implemented if it can hep the city reduce costs.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 824
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.141
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:33 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

River_rat, sorry for the cheap shot. Getting a dig in, at your expense, for me being cited as an example of contribution to this forum earlier in this thread. There was a much hated user recently banned who used those annoying expressions in every single post it made. So when you posted that you had a previous incarnation...

How does a city go about vacating ownership of previously incorporated land? Is there a mechanism in the law in place?
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2069
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:45 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey river_rat, don't think yer BI deal is gonna work, you probably need to add another zero to your offer to get it to be seriously considered before being rejected. ... BUT ... for one LESS zero can I interest you in a hotel? ... brick, great location, needs some TLC, financing available ... lol!
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River_rat
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Username: River_rat

Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.166.44.44
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:45 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Hornwrecker, yes, there is a legal mechanism for vacating municipal sovereignty.

My previous posts have always been dignified in their language and presentation, it is only the ideas and proposals that made me somewhat less than loved.

the river rat
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 2687
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Posted From: 70.236.183.80
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 6:13 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My knee-jerk reaction to the river rat's offer is NO WAY.

I will give it further reflection, but I'm guessing my response will be the same.

Any serious consideration by our elected officials of this offer, my guess would be, political suicide.
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River_rat
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Username: River_rat

Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 207.67.146.177
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:06 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Political suicide? What if it were presented as a cash offer of $1000 to every registered voter in the city?



the river rat
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 421
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Posted From: 69.209.187.90
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:24 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

river_rat: I am rather neutral on this issue because on one hand, I am concerned about the city of Detroit and the people of Detroit losing accessibility to Belle Isle. On the other hand, I have seen islands being sold throughout the world for various sums of money to private entities due to budgetary/financial reasons.

I am wondering if the city is negotiating with you to double-or triple-up the offer, or did the city flat out tell you off with absolutely no room for dialogue ?

Another angle of view would be in regards to state receivership ..... would your group have a better chance to purchase the island if the city of Detroit goes into state receivership ?
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 2689
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Posted From: 68.79.94.77
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:43 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If just the suggestion of a usage fee inflamed so many.
I'm guessing the outright sale of BI, would not sit well with most of the citizenry.
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River_rat
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Username: River_rat

Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 207.67.146.177
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:58 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The city (former mayor) simply said NO. No negotiation. I doubt the city being in receivership would help; both the city and the state are so hog-tied in politics and political self-interest that any serious attempt at purchase (which our group's is) would be mired in litigation for a period exceeding my remaining life span. Hint at my age: Evers, Wertz and Groth were in the outfield when I rode the DSR to Briggs Stadium. Still, the offer to buy would be there if it could happen.


the river rat (formerly known by a different name on the forum, but too many people too angry at me, so i'm starting anew)

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