Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Greektown still looking for hotel site Previous Next
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 340
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.210.161
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Casino hunts for a hotel property
Greektown trails MGM, MotorCity
BY GRETA GUEST
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

February 17, 2006

Greektown Casino is still trying to obtain land for its hotel, raising the possibility that it might be built elsewhere in Greektown.

The casino has been unable to make a deal with the Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral to lease its parking lot at Monroe and I-375, where it had hoped to build a 15-story, 400-room hotel, said Aaron Payment, chairman of the Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians, which owns 98% of the casino.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060217/BUS INESS06/602170400/1019&templat e=printart
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Matt_the_deuce
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Username: Matt_the_deuce

Post Number: 501
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.248.252
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 6:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Once again I believe this is just a negotiating tactic to try to get the church to budge a little bit.

I'd be surprized if the casino dumped it's current site plans - but you never know I guess.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1446
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 70.227.217.52
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 6:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greektown Casino will stay in third place long after I am dead and gone. Poor decisions are the reason why they will always lag behind the other casinos.

The initial decision to build the permanent casino at Gratiot, away from Greektown proper, was there first poor decision.
There second poor decision was not finding a way to use the Athenium Hotel as their hotel. There third poor decision was not negotiating with St. Mary's Church to buy the parking lot just south of the church. Their fourth poor decision is not using the city land at the corner of St. Antoine and Monroe to build the hotel, instead of worrying about adding a f'ing 3500 car garage. Cut down the number of parking spaces in the proposed parking deck and they'd have room for a hotel.

I still think the best option would be to buy the land that holds the St. Mary's school building and build the hotel there and connect it to the casino and proposed parking deck. Clearly that option is problematic.

BTW, there fifth poor decision is their decision to expand the present casino over half of Lafayette. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. This expansion detroys the entire streetscape. Why can't Greektown Casino be happy with earning $335 million it's making on average per year, instead of worrying about being in third place. They have a good thing going but just want to be greedy.

(Message edited by royce on February 17, 2006)
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 915
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 7:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why don't they just build the hotel on the vacant block bordered by Randolph, Lafayette, Brush, and Fort... and link up to the Athenaeum Hotel/International Center, the parking garage at Brush and Lafayette, and the existing casino via a series of skywalks? This is how they often expand casino properties in Nevada: piecemeal. It's not always pretty, but it works.
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 651
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 7:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce, do you have any f***ing idea what you are talking about? You are also a f***ing genius to think that buying the St. Mary's school building is a great option......if you knew at all what you were talking about, you would know that the reason we are in third place is because we don't have enough, nor connected, parking. The misunderstandings in your post would fill volumes, but "earning" $335 million is enough said.....there is a huge difference between Gross Revenue and Net income.....
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 652
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 7:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fury, just try to wrench that extremely valuable flat-parking lot away from its owners. They want 18MM for it.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1448
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 70.227.217.52
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 7:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gambling_man, I don't care. These are my f'ing ideas and I like them. It's ok if you don't. There are no misunderstandings in my post. I know exactly what I said and what I meant.

There are fewer connected parking spaces at Greektown Casino than at the other two casinos. I realized that. However, I enjoy going to Greektown Casino more than the other two, and every time I go I walk or I catch the People Mover. Why is WALKING such a hard concept for people to get? It won't kill you.

Ok, here's the best option I can come up with for solving Greektown's parking problem. Tear down all of the businesses on Monroe Street and build a massive 5000 car parking deck. It will be attached to the casino. Gambling_man, problem solved.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 919
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 7:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gambling Man,

Aha. I figured it was something like that. Too bad. What a waste.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 1797
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.81.13
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 8:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First of all the Atheneum is owned by Jim Papas and Ted Gatzaros. They probably don't want to sell. If they did sell the hotel, they would have to sell the International Center Building (Fishbone's) as well since the 2 buildings are integrated (both Ferry-Morse Seed Warehouse buildings at one time). Also, using the Atheneum would mean that only 800 new hotel rooms would be built by casinos, way down from the original 2,400 (800 each), then down to 1,200 (400 each).... and now only 800 rooms. That would suck.

Remember Papas and Gatzaros are both forbidden by the state gaming commission from having anything to do with any of the casinos (accepting casino comps, etc.), although I'm sure that doesn't mean selling property.

I don't think that the St. Mary's School building has a large enough footprint, and besides it is the LAST example of commercial Victorian Gothic architecture left downtown (aside from some church rectories). I would hate to see it destroyed. I wouldn't mind a Chuck Forbes style move of the building though.

The Greektown folks are definitely in a quandry. No matter where they want to put the hotel, the sellers will want an exhorbitant amount.

The worst thing that happened to Greektown was losing Papas and Gatzaros as 40% owners (didn't pass the state gaming commission clearance). They own a good chunk of the Greektown area.

Although it won't happen, I think the best idea would be to move the historic church (NW corner of Beaubien & Monroe) a block or two away (along with moving the Irish pub at the far end of that block), and build the hotel on that site. But again, that won't happen.

Yessirree, the Greektown owners are in a quandry!

Hey you guys, lighten up! What did you guys do, get home from a bad day at work, kick the dog, and then logon? :-)

(Message edited by Gistok on February 17, 2006)
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1427
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 8:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Although it won't happen, I think the best idea would be to move the historic church (NW corner of Beaubien & Monroe) a block or two away (along with moving the Irish pub at the far end of that block), and build the hotel on that site.




I think moving the church would be a political hot-potatoe.

I also think you are mixing up Marilyn's on Monreo with Ol' Sheleighly's. The Irish pub is on the NW corner of Brush and Monroe. Marilyn's is across from Fishbones.

But I like the way you are thinking...

What about the parking lot on the north half of the main block in Greektown?

Who owns the parking garage at Randolph (the one I always park for free in)?
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Dag
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Username: Dag

Post Number: 185
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.211.222.214
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 8:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know that this seems like a stretch but in other cities there have been examples of adaptive use of the land that exists above interstates and major arteries. In the west coast there are examples of parks and greenspace being built above interstates and I believe in Boston there is a hotel that was built above an expressway.

I do not believe that land is in high enough demand to warrant this I do think that it could be a potentially attractive solution that would help to anchor the eastern end of Greektown as well as creating a more tangible link to the area on the opposite side of 375.
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Nellonfury
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Username: Nellonfury

Post Number: 95
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.43.156.135
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 4:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CASINO WINDSOR RULES!!!!!!
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1449
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 70.227.217.52
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 7:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think a hotel at Randolph and Brush on the site of the casino's current parking lot would be a stretch. However, it is way passed the time that they convert that lot into a parking deck like the one next door to it. The ground floor would have room for retail/restaurants.

Quite honestly, I have a fear that if the Greektown Casino doesn't get the parking lot land from the church, it is going to use the land/building where the Loco Bar and Nikki's Pizza is located, displacing two of my favorite restaurants.

Remember, at some point in the search for more room, Greektown Casino was considering using this spot. With the new valet parking deck next door, it is not inconceiveable that a hotel could go on this site.

BTW, I'd still like to know, Gistok and Gambling_man, what is this love affair with the St. Mary's School? For me it's a building where the bums sit on the stairs and beg for money. Also, it's painted a hideous beige color. It's inconsequential to me. The argument that it doesn't have a big enough footprint is suspect. As many projects in Downtown Detroit that have been shoe-horned into spots(JLA and the new Greektown parking deck), this argument is weak.

Now, if you include the lot next to the school, it would probably have the footprint of the Hilton's Garden Inn on Gratiot and Brush. Then go vertical about the height of the Blue Cross/Blue Sheild tower and you have a good size hotel. If it doesn't give you 400 rooms, so be it.

Continuing on that note, I think this 400 room ceiling has been a joke from the very beginning with these casinos. I can't wait to see what the occupancy rate will be for the MGM Casino's hotel once it opens up. Maybe when the permanent casino first opens up it will fill those 400 rooms on the weekends, but after that I doubt it.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 1801
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.72.43
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 11:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce, There are only about 3 dozen 19th century commercial buildings remaining in downtown. 2 dozen of them are from the 1890's.

Of the dozen or so from before 1890, most are located in Greektown/Bricktown and lower Woodward just north of the Vinton Building. Detroit should not have to lose another 125+ year old building of that era. With all the parking lots that are available, it would be a shame to lose that building. I think it's a moot point anyway. The church ain't gonna sell that land. I don't blame them. They don't want to look out their front vestibule and look at a Casino complex. The Victorian Gothic school building is sort of a buffer to them. And besides bums and a bad paint job are not a good enough excuse for condemnation.

On the otherhand, it would be OK to do a move of that building, no problem. I bet it would look good on the ML site or somewhere else in Harmonie Park.

I also would not like to see the historic Boydell Building, or the gloriously restored orange brick Globe Building destroyed for a hotel on the block on the SW corner of Beaubien and Lafayette. They too are from that era.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1450
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 70.236.187.104
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 5:26 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, I'll agree that a move of the school would be preferable to tearing it down. Aesthetically, it's just not one of my favorite buildings. It is in the ideal location for the hotel because the hotel could be attached to the casino. Then a skywalk could be attached to the new proposed parking deck at the northeast corner of St. Antoine and Monroe.

However, I do agree with you when it comes to the Globe Building. It is a beautiful building and I'm glad it was initially spared demolition to make room for the first proposed permanent Greektown Casino site.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 810
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 9:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tear down Nikki's and the Loco....Oh nooooo..would that include bazoukis as well. tsk tsk tsk.

I thought that the parking structure across from the Atheneum was built to expand. Didn't they say that a hotel could be built on top of that structure when they built it???
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 654
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 1:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lot's of good ideas, all of which have been thought of......the Catholic church has now become the biggest slum-landlord in Greektown (and flat-lot owner), and has no plans to do anything about it. They could care less about what is good for Greektown or downtown for that matter. Ideally, the Hotel should be connected to the casino....leaving many parcels unusable (ie: the top of the parking Garage) The hotel should also maximize its visibility from the expressway.....difficult to do several blocks from it.......The Greek Church just doesn't want to part with their flat parking lot....a real shame really.
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 655
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 1:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce, your follow-up post earlier was very insightful....thank you for listening and writing intelligently. I didn't mean to get all huffy-puffy, but this is a subject that is very near and dear to my heart.....
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1460
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 70.236.187.104
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 1:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gambling_man, thanks for the kind words. I am curious as to why this subject is near and dear to your heart. If you'd care to elaborate I could get a better understanding of your thoughts. However, if you don't, I'm OK with that too.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2734
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.209.191.149
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 6:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"the Catholic church has now become the biggest slum-landlord in Greektown (and flat-lot owner), and has no plans to do anything about it."

Excuse me, because we won't let the casino have our lot or our school building?
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 811
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 7:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really think I know this gambling_man. Probably do if you ever go to the Sault often.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5541
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 8:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce, Gambling_man is addicted to nickel slots. The subject of the Greektown casino is important to him because it holds the mortgage on his house, car and grandmother.

Quite sad, actually.
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 656
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ham Steve, "Have our lot...", and "let the school building Rot for 30 years" are two very different things.......My point is that they have become like every other slum landlord downtown.....oblivious to progress, and sitting on their building doing nothing.....waiting for the big payday.....which will never come. Worse for them, there are no other abandoned or empty buildings in Greektown.....so it sticks out like a sore thumb.....
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Dag
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Username: Dag

Post Number: 188
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.188.238.215
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:38 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GM I mean no offense in saying this but the implementation of casino on consecrated ground could be contrued as quite antithetical in nature to many. While I agree that the church should be taking a more proactive role in creating a living, vibrant community, I can understand the point if they choose not to sell to the casino or the casino's hotel based on moral or theological grounds.
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 657
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Broken Main, not often.....but often enough....
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2739
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.65
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 12:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get real, Gambling Man. The church is hardly a stumbling block to rebuilding downtown. A stumbling block to the casino's profits maybe, but not to Greektown or downtown.

The church has been there for over 100 years, returning just as much to the community as it takes. Can the casino say the same, with their millions in profits being removed every year?
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 659
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry to burst anyone's moral bubbles, but the Catholic church has used gambling (ie: Vegas nights and Bingo) to amass huge amounts of cash. What have they done with it....Hmmmm...let's see....close numerous schools and churches, while giving 10 MILLION dollars to supporting the Anti-Gay Marriage ballot last election......Take that one to the bank.......And if you want to know, I was raised catholic, and attended catholic high-school.

PS, No matter if they don't want to sell to the casino or not, that school building is a haven for bums, pigeons, and is an eyesore in an otherwise vibrant neighborhood.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2747
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.65
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's a huge crevice between the weekly bingo nights run by a parish and the systematic fleecing that occurs at a casino. To suggest otherwise amounts to a falsehood large enough to invade a country through. And those funds are used by that parish to support the parish's programs, whatever those may be.

A haven for bums and pigeons? Please. You have less concern for the bums than anything else. You don't want the bums around because they might deter casino patrons.

As for an eyesore, how so? The windows aren't boarded up, the doors aren't standing open.

(As for your personal faith, just because someone is "raised" something doesn't mean they were taught correctly or learned anything.)
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Gumby
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Username: Gumby

Post Number: 899
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 141.216.1.4
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am confused as to how the parking lot is "consecrated ground". i could understand if they were going to knock down the church but lets get serious this is a freaking parking lot. Plus it would be a hotel going up there not a casino.
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Manrooter
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Username: Manrooter

Post Number: 389
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gumby, I once did it on that parking lot. It's sacred to me, at least.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6824
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Gumby, I once did it on that parking lot. It's sacred to me, at least.




But not so much to the victim, I mean other participant.
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Manrooter
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Username: Manrooter

Post Number: 390
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The, uh, manrootee?
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Gumby
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Username: Gumby

Post Number: 901
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 141.216.1.4
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess that would make it scared. I stand corrected.
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Gthomas
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Username: Gthomas

Post Number: 49
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 192.135.141.99
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 9:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Build it on the Valet perking lot ?
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Dag
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Username: Dag

Post Number: 189
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.188.238.215
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:38 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The land on which a church and the auxillary buildings of a church is often considered hallowed ground or consecrated. While I agree 100% that it is just a parking lot and thus has no religious significance at all, I am sure there may be a very vocal contingent that would believe that since the land is under the ownership of the church that it would be sacreligious to sell the land to a casino.

I can see the parallel but I think there is a sizable gulf between bingo night in order to raise money for providing for less fortunate of our city and a casino whose primary goal is to obtain a profit for it's shareholders.

While I do not beleive that the church should hold out, I honestly can not fault them for taking actions which would preclude a casino from building adjacent to a house a worship.

Honestly, I feel tat both are houses of worship and should be treated equally.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 203
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dag: A casino is a house of worship? Is that what you meant to say? That's interesting. Care to expand?

(Message edited by Jimaz on February 22, 2006)
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Dag
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Username: Dag

Post Number: 191
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.188.238.215
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 1:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think when you look at it in the abstract that you can make the argument for it. A house of worship is intended to fill you with belief and hope, allow for you to pray to a higher power to help and guide you.

While this is cynical in nature, all of the aforementioned qualities can be applicable to a casino as well. For some a casino can be just as venerable an institution as a church or temple. Both the Church and the casino act as magnents for the lost souls of our society and while people look for spiritual wealth and metaphysical gains from the Church they look for physical wealth and carnal gains from the casino.

While the Holy Communion is given at the altar there are different altars in the casinos where people willingly place their offerings.

You feel where I am coming from?
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 204
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 1:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dag, oh, yes. Very interesting. There's a basis for this in ancient beliefs. It's unusual to see someone echoing that point of view today.

I'm thinking along the lines of "The Origins of Consciousness in The Breakdown of The Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes.

When the gods were perceived as receding, various auguries were consulted instead to determine their intentions -- as a last resort.

Casting of lots, reading of entrails, etc. were considered means of divining the proper course.

I'm not saying it's true, and neither are you, I think, but it's interesting psychology nonetheless.

Thanks.

(Message edited by Jimaz on February 22, 2006)
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1043
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 1:49 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

... I dont get what the big deal is having 3 blocks of any size, connecting the parking deck, casino, and hotel by skywalks... Im sure they can find a casino on a large enough footprint... and the parking lot and hotel will just have to be built skyward... I see no reason why another site near the people mover cannot be found to build a massive parking deck, and just force all foot traffic through the peoplemover.. Why not use it for what it was designed to do you know? Perhapse even put some money into it to make sure it works right.. Godforbid you ran part of a return track to the deck as well... maybe the city could fill in the rest of enough $ was put forward... Maybe buy up some more land next to the peoplemover and sit on it... its going to be ALOT more valuable once the traffic picks up on it.

I just think greektown is refusing to think outside the Detroit Metro Mentality... why not come up with something revolutionary that can either spin off some other income other than the casino or find a way to not only solve your problem but come out of third?

.... Land issue problems are resolved in NYC, Chicago, and other high density areas... Why cant it in Detroit where there is an over abundance of it.

Shit... you might have to face it.. if the guy wants 18 million.. that might be what its worth now... doesnt that help you out in terms of property values?
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 661
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gthomas, what valet parking lot?

Dag, the church is already adjacent to a casino, not sure I see your point.

Alexei, nobody rides the peoplemover.
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Huggybear
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Username: Huggybear

Post Number: 150
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 192.217.12.254
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 1:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

G_M:

-- We know the casinos have an incentive to spend as little as humanly possible.

-- We know that landowners have an incentive to sell for as much as possible - or if they are sufficiently motivated, to keep things the way they want them.

Is this really a problem driven by the Catholic or Greek Orthodox parishes? This is hardly a compelling argument - and one that only ends up alienating a lot of people.

1. Your land acquisition "difficulties" demonstrate how a market economy works. You have to buy at what the market will bear. And buying desirable (or useful) property in this city is still expensive. It happens on every project - and there is no Poletown principle to cling to.

2. Your land acquisition/construction costs are likely already built into your business model. And it would not be surprising if they are ending up as tax deductions one way or another. So are you or the taxpayers really bearing the added costs of land acquisition?

3. Despite the fact that revenue might "only" be $365 million, casino businesses make money and are typically worth a lot of it. You don't need to see the EBTDA numbers or apply the 8-14x multiples you often see in the casino industry to see this. You can look at the sheer amount of litigation, the contentiousness of ownership and profit sharing issues, the sale price of interests, and the massive projected costs of building the permanent facilties for MGM and Motor City. You don't build stuff like that if you can't make it back - and more.

4. The school building/parking lot/slumlord argument is not very compelling - no matter who was the owner. The school building is on the periphery and is near no active business (except, arguably, the parking deck). The surface lots are pretty small - and outside of Greektown. Does anyone even pay any attention to that building or that lot? Did anyone pay any attention to the fire station that was torn down for the temporary casino?

If neither church wants to sell, you just have to think of some new way to approach the problem. I'm sure that you have a lot of bright people working for your organization and someone can come up with something more popular than attacking religious institutions.
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Dag
Member
Username: Dag

Post Number: 192
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.188.238.215
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 1:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GM, the church did not have an initial choice in the matter, they do now.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 146
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 1:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Too bad for Greektown that they cannot use eminent domain! The region doesn't need any more of Metro D's funds being exported as there already is. Gambling is for losers...
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 662
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 5:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Huggybear, please don't chime in on subjects you have no experience with whatsoever:

1. I never said we were having difficulties acquiring land.

2. Tax Deductions? For Land? Purchasing any asset is never a deduction.....the depreciation on it is......Land, however, does not depreciate...unless it is a mine or gravel pit, which does deplete. The shareholders of GTC will bear the full brunt of any added costs.

3. Casino businesses make money. OK, so do all businesses....if they do not, they are out of business......Sale prices above 8X EBITDA have NEVER been seen in this business....a more typical multiplier is 6-7X....Motor City sold for just under 8X....watch for Ms. Illitch to have some problems with her loan covenants....although I do not know how much cash she put into the deal.....also, Motor city is adding their hotel and some space onto the casino....hardly massive amounts of money.....they are doing it because they have to....MGM is building brand new because they can, and they want to rule the market.

4. "The school building isn't near any active business"....What do you call Hellas, Laikon, Lavdas, Ham Shoppe, and the Casino? The lots are outside Greektown???

Finally, I'm not sure where you think that I, or anyone else has "attacked" a religious institution.....Do you think that a religious institution is beyong reproach? No one can point out facts about that religion or church that some people may or may not like? I am merely pointing out that many churches are in downtown areas all over this country. Most have learned to blend in and become part of the solution, not sit on empty buildings and become part of the problem. The casino has many other options, it's actually a shame that these parishes (who have extremely small and declining membership) will not benefit from progress.
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Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2755
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.209.133.247
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 6:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How is the school building harming Greektown, Gambling Man?

Along with the 5 businesses you listed, you can add 5 or 10 more. I'm not aware of any Greektown patrons who are scared away by the old school. I've never seen anyone stand at that corner, look up and run away in fear.

I think you need to reconsider your initial comment, "They could care less about what is good for Greektown or downtown for that matter."

For you to later wonder where you attacked a religious institution is to expect us to have the reading comprehension skills of a 4 month-old.
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Gambling_man
Member
Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 663
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 6:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve, do you think that people look up and say, hmmm...this is a well-kept, clean neighborhood that looks safe?!? WTF.....Have you ever seen a group of old ladies, who have come to the casino on a bus to enjoy their afternoon, apprehensive to leave the casino in the first place, leave the casino, and two steps outside, notices the drunken, cracked-up bum sitting on those church steps, barfing up his "lunch"....they run straight back into the casino and never visit any of the restaraunts or want to walk around downtown Detroit EVER again....not to mention what they tell their friends when they get home.
How is my comment that they could care less about what is good for their community around them an attack? It is not only my perception, in talking directly to them, it is quite apparent that its God's truth...Amen.
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Gambling_man
Member
Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 664
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 6:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve, your posts have me riled up.......By your own logic, NONE of the abandoned buildings downtown harm business downtown..........there's some 4 month-old logic for you......I'm sure in someone's mind, an abandoned, shitty building screams safety, cleanliness, and activity, but obviously not in this Bizarro world. I'm also going to cut another argument off at the pass: "If the old ladies are scared by that, they don't understand that that is what goes on in big cities, and we don't need them down here anyhow" We need EVERYONE down here folks, not just the "hipster" wannabees, armchair architects, "urban pioneers", communists, and building huggers that have infested this site. Business is about making money folks, most of them do it, and it pays for EVERYTHING we have in this country.....including all of YOUR belongings. PS, there's nothing evil about it....
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Huggybear
Member
Username: Huggybear

Post Number: 151
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 192.217.12.254
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 7:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

G_M,

First, I apologize on the location. For some reason, I was thinking of the rectory and not the school. To tell you the truth, I've never paid much attention to the school - since the small end faces Monroe, it is at the end of the block,and it doesn't look that bad - at least at night. Ugly color, though.

But to your other points:

1. I think it's pretty clear that you have been upset about the land issue throughout this thread. And while we are looking at your wish list, don't you need Lavdas too? The school has a pretty small footprint. And the jewelry shop would be the only gap in the Monroe frontage. So isn't it a little disingenous to be complaining about the effect of the school on Lavdas, since the wrecking ball would be coming next for green marble and putti?

2. I should have been more clear: your "facility" (land+fixtures). I'm sure in the end the land is going to be chump change against the depreciable improvements to it. It's not hard to see that for a given room count, less land means more building means more to depreciate.

3. Maybe Detroit does not support the same multiples as Vegas does - but those multiples are not published here nor was that even the point. The point was simply that these are not some boutique retail shop or small cafe eking out a miserable existence.

4. On the location issue, although there is a small amount of parking off Monroe (which may be owned by the church or Lavdas or both), the real mother lode of parking is on the Lafayette side, which doesn't really belong to any "neighborhood." I drive past these lots every day (at least twice), and they are not striking as "blight."

Honestly, since you guys knocked down the fire station and a couple of small buildings (or maybe the City did it for G&P?), there is no cohesive "neighborhood" at all on the Lafayette side. So it's not like those lots are ruining things.
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Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2756
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.209.133.247
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 8:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keep your knickers on, Gambling man. We're not talking about any other building except for the school building.

You're right back to mentioning bums as scaring people away.

Which is it, is it the bums or the building?

If you think for one moment that bums would disappear if only the school building were occupied, you're fooling only yourself.

You still have not shown how Father Ed or any of us at Old St. Mary's "could care less about what is good for Greektown or downtown for that matter."

The only thing you return to is the fact that we will not allow the casino to have our building or parking lot.

Get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The church has been there for over 100 years, long before your systematized fleecing operation moved in. Our parishioners come from all over the metro area, as far as Brighton, and they don't just hop back into their car after Mass. We may not head into your gaming palace, but we're supporting the neighborhood just the same.

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