Discuss Detroit Ľ Archives - Beginning January 2006 Ľ Barbara-Rose Collins ę Previous Next Ľ
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Ct4438
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Post Number: 13
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 67.37.215.187
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 9:31 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, please excuse my ignorance but can someone explain to me what Barbara-Rose Collins was getting at in her comments to Channel 7 about the council's decision re: the Detroit zoo? How did this decision have anything to do with race or racism???

http://www.wxyz.com/wxyz/nw_lo cal_news/article/0,2132,WXYZ_1 5924_4482423,00.html
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Dialh4hipster
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Post Number: 1449
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Posted From: 68.61.187.234
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 9:36 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She was retarded as a congresswoman and she's retarded as a councilwoman. Detroit voters love a retard.
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Pam
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Post Number: 92
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Posted From: 67.107.47.65
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 10:02 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She had a problem with the deadline to accept state funding for the zoo. Felt they were being pressured to make a decision by state gov.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 871
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 10:06 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Collins said, ".....and that weíre unable to govern ourselves""

does a pattern of fiscally irresponsible desicions count as good governance these days?

(Message edited by gravitymachine on February 21, 2006)
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Eastside
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Username: Eastside

Post Number: 785
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.246.10.58
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 10:07 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...retarded ain't the right word.
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Gildas
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Username: Gildas

Post Number: 396
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 147.240.236.9
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 10:09 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't wait for receivership.
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1450
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.187.234
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 10:20 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

She had a problem with the deadline to accept state funding for the zoo. Felt they were being pressured to make a decision by state gov.



I understand her issues with the proposal, even though it pretty much seems like a no-brainer.

What is really beyond my comprehension is how she dragged slavery into the discussion.

She is a half-wit attention whore and nothing more.

(Message edited by dialh4hipster on February 21, 2006)
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Pam
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Post Number: 94
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 10:22 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't understand why they couldn't just ask for an extension of the deadline until they could agree on a plan! Rather give speeches than actually find a compromise I guess.
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 500
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.42.176.123
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 10:28 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it possible the state can just do a takeover of the city council and nothing else?
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 2712
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Posted From: 68.250.8.253
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 10:30 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and why would the State want them? Doesn't it have enough problems?
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 501
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Posted From: 68.42.176.123
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 10:49 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1383
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Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 10:53 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While I cannot pretend to understand, agree with, nor support the decision, and more specifically Ms. Collins justification, maybe, just maybe, after living a history of controlling nothing, of owning nothing, and having everything that is worth something taken away from you, that such a stance can be the only logical stance to take.

You live in a city that was all but deserted by the establishment, so you create your own.

You may not do things right, but at least you stayed and try to do them.

And for the first time in your American history, you are making the decisions. You are in control. You own the assets.

Now, all of a sudden, 2 weeks after "the world was here", you are given 24 hours to decide if you want to hand over control of one of the few things that actually has value?

Everything is great and wonderful in Detroit because Penske and a team of [mostly] outsiders worked to pull something off.

You see all that you have worked for, all that you have fought against, slipping away and taken from you.

While not the right thing to do, if I had been in those shoes I might say "f*ck off, I am taking my toys and going home" as well.
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Gildas
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Username: Gildas

Post Number: 397
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Posted From: 147.240.236.9
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:02 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Their not "her" toys. They belong to the residents of Detroit and the people of the State of Michigan, who will not have them if the zoo is forced to close.

The outsiders were the ones who pulled this off because Detroit could not do it without them, everything is not great and wonderful in the city and the vanishing population is proof.
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Detroiternthemist
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Username: Detroiternthemist

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 64.118.149.50
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:11 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting Dabirch, On top of all that the fact that being over 50y in age and living in the most polar region in the US it may all add up. Here's a vision. The SE Michigan region is probably 2 more generations away from totally non-segregated.
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1451
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.187.234
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:14 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

While not the right thing to do, if I had been in those shoes I might say "f*ck off, I am taking my toys and going home" as well.



Because as an elected official, it is your job to act like you are age 8.

I see your point dabirch, but realistically they knew this was coming in some shape or form. But just because you are in charge for the first time in your American history (e.g. the last 30 years) does not give you license to just be a fuckup. The reason this could be happening:


quote:

You see all that you have worked for, all that you have fought against, slipping away and taken from you.



Is because you say stupid shit that alienates people in the most personal way.

It is certainly the right of the people of Detroit and their leadership to play the race card. It's not been a pretty ride. What is really super fucking annoying is how everyone preaches working together, black and white, city and suburb, until they need to put people on the defensive. And then? You're a racist because you don't agree with them.

Two weeks ago everyone was talking about coming together after the success of the superbowl week. And then we get this from Barbara Rose, our disgraced former congresswoman who got the job with the pension back in the home office. Last month Kwame was preaching Detroit love and a spirit of cooperation with the suburbs. But two months before that he was driving in the wedge to shore up his hardcore city vote.

It's politics as usual in Detroit, I know. But it doesn't mean I have to like it.
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Atl_runner
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Username: Atl_runner

Post Number: 1823
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.209.118.72
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:22 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

You live in a city that was all but deserted by the establishment, so you create your own.

You may not do things right, but at least you stayed and try to do them.




So many problems with this line of thinking I don't even know where to start. The Leadership in that city that 'stayed' is largely responsible for the hole that the city fell into. Who wouldn't desert crime, corruption, incompetence, segregation, blight, and desperation? Blaming everyone that left is not the answer. Placing responsibility squarely on those who held the power and control at the time, is. You control your own destiny.. can be said about almost anything.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 2715
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Posted From: 68.79.99.48
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:24 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dabirch,
Marvelous job of explaining a knee-jerk reaction to people, including myself, that had a knee-jerk reaction to the reaction.

An all or nothing deadline on short notice is probably not the best way of getting a proper decision for something that affects generations to come.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1622
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Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:25 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dialh4hipster, how is this KK fault? He came up with a plan, the CC voted against it. Now the best course of action is to close the zoo. I live in the city and if it comes down to laying off police and fire to keep the zoo open, I say close the zoo.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1384
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:39 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The Leadership in that city that 'stayed' is largely responsible for the hole that the city fell into.




Actually I would have to place the majority of the blame on the a**holes who abandonned the city as being responsible for the hole that the city fell into.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1385
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Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:41 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

You control your own destiny.. can be said about almost anything.




Including your decision to move to Atlanta.

Hope you had fun during the superbowl.

Maybe we'll see you again at the marathon...
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 873
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Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:42 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

no matter who's to blame (both are in my book), is anyone steppin up above the bickering and really coming through for the people of this region? answer: no. business as usual.
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Rust
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Username: Rust

Post Number: 104
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Posted From: 64.118.136.130
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:46 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only thing positive out of this devisive remark is that it would appear that everyone in Metro-Detroit is equally outraged by her words. The unity in disgust by all races of metro-detroiters is good sign.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1386
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Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:51 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am just trying to offer a point of view.

It is easy to be outraged by comments.

I found the comments offensive.

I want to find a way to keep the zoo around -- and I trust we will.

My only point is before reacting to the messenger, at least listen to the message.

Is there any truth to her position?
Is there any reason for bitterness?
Is there anything to be learned from her reaction?

Maybe we, as a region, need to figure out another way of "taking control" of Detroit's assets.

Outside the DIA, I do not believe we have been successful in any of our approaches so far.
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Warriorfan
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Username: Warriorfan

Post Number: 261
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Posted From: 141.217.173.193
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:57 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dabrich,
No one was trying to take ownership of the zoo away from Detroit! The plan simply called for the financial burden of running the zoo to be given to the privately-funded Zoological Society instead of Detroit taxpayers, DETROIT WOULD ALWAYS MAINTAIN FULL OWNERSHIP OF THE ZOO! And on top of the that, the state was going to give $4 million towards the costs of running the zoo, money that has now been forfeited.

Nobody was trying to "take anything away from black people", and I didn't know that the zoo was For Blacks By Blacks, thanks for enlightening me. Of course, now that it will be closing, it will be blacks as well as whites who suffer for it because they too will be unable to enjoy the zoo and it's attractions.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1623
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Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 12:11 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The plan simply called for the financial burden of running the zoo to be given to the privately-funded Zoological Society instead of Detroit taxpayers




Warrior fan what about the $600,000 a year for security the city would still be paying for. What about the $300,000 for insurance the city would still be required to pay. What about the 10 mil in capital improvements the city would pay for the next 2 years. No finanical burden!
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1387
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Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 12:11 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Warriorfan --

Thanks for picking up on the subtlety that was implied.

No, nobody said the zoo was "for blacks by blacks" and nobody was trying to "take anything away from black people".

However, if you put yourself in the shoes of a person, or a people, who have historically had nothing, and then gain control over something, it will be damn difficult to get them to accept to hand that something back over.

Even if that something would be better cared for by another.

That is the point that I was trying to make. I guess I should have spelled it out a little more clearly.

And for the record, I believe I stated:


quote:

Maybe we, as a region, need to figure out another way of "taking control" of Detroit's assets




which in no way implies that ownership would be transferred.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1624
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Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 12:12 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also Warrior fan you totally missed what Dabirch was trying to say.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2740
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.65
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 12:24 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Maybe we, as a region, need to figure out another way of "taking control" of Detroit's assets."

How about moving to Detroit?

Holy shit, what a fucking brilliant idea! Why, that way you could vote on stuff and actually be part of the solution, instead of sitting somewhere an bitching about it.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1388
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 12:27 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ummm..I live in detroit.

Have for quite some time.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2743
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 12:30 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, that was not directed at you, personally, Dabirch. More at the attitude in general that Detroit's assets need to be "taken contol of."

Damn English language. By now you'd think we'd have a plural "you."
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1389
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 12:33 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not a problem H_steve.

I apologize if I was snarky in my response.

Damn that English...
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2090
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Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 1:17 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"y'all" works
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Vas
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Username: Vas

Post Number: 491
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Posted From: 24.180.77.218
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 2:04 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She's an idiot and sad that people would vote her into office.
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2227
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Posted From: 12.75.24.82
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 2:06 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Y'all" can be singular, "all y'all" is unambiguously plural.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2092
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Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 2:17 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yup "all y'all" is even better.
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Forddaughter
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Username: Forddaughter

Post Number: 2
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Posted From: 68.249.244.166
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 2:28 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The symbolism is that Detroit is a black city and that weíre unable to govern ourselves. So we need an overseer, the state legislature, or what have you, to step in and tell us what we must do and how to do it.....That is a racist attitude. I resent it very much. Iím trying not to let it color my judgments, but weíre not a plantation, blacks arenít owned by white folks anymore"

This is the same shit that Coleman Young used to do, refuse to accept help from the suburbs (which in his mind always equaled Whites), try to do it yourself, then fail. This kind of attitude will never EVER help anyone. The reason the suburbs offer help is because they WANT to help. They do not want to CONTROL your damn city, they just want to help. Even the strongest of people need help once in a while.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 5575
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Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 2:41 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But those strongest ones never seem to recognize the help when it shows...or are too proud to accept it. (probably all of us, come to think of it)



(Welcome, Forddaughter!)
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Forddaughter
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Username: Forddaughter

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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 2:44 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's true. I just wish we could get them to realize we only want to help.

Thanks for the welcome Gannon :-)
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Romanized
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Username: Romanized

Post Number: 189
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.4.97.70
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 2:47 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dabirch,

Get the f*ck over yourself. Virtually my entire family and all my childhood friends left the city, and I know all of their reasons why. They can not be blamed for a single one. Who wants to live next to a prick like you anyways.

Even though this city is nothing like a real business, it is still subject to business rules. When you don't satisfy customers, they leave. If Detroit was a business they would have closed up shop decades ago like so many other businesses did. But it is a municipality, so it will dredge on for an eternity.

People like you prefer to look at Detroit as a charity case. I'm afraid you are in the minority. Life is too short that. So quit your bitchin', and stop defending the idiots driving the city toward bankruptcy.
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Atl_runner
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Username: Atl_runner

Post Number: 1825
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Posted From: 68.209.118.72
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 2:53 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Actually I would have to place the majority of the blame on the a**holes who abandonned the city as being responsible for the hole that the city fell into.




Like blaming the rape victim for the rape. We see what kind of 'reasoning' you are using to justify this behavior.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 5576
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Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 2:53 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think we all have the tendency to show up in a situation, assess it within our perceptions, then issue our advice and what we deem constructive criticism and assistance without truly checking to see what the involved participants have already tried and done over their time being directly involved.

Everyone can armchair a good football play, and it might be exactly what is needed to win the game...but marching onto the field shouting orders (or even merely suggesting them) and throwing money at the coach and cheerleaders can only serve to piss off both teams and the officials...no matter how many in the stands cheer you on.


I am teaching myself as I type this...I am as guilty as this if not MORE than the average homey.


In many cases, when help is offered...often you'll hear "We already tried that, go away"...when in fact IF a good idea didn't succeed the first time, it might warrant a revisit in THIS time instead of being summarily dismissed.

Human nature is so cumbersome...but perhaps some sensitivity, decorum, and tact are needed to bring everyone to the same table. It will still be acrimonious, but we need to keep trying.

Let's just pray for clearer heads and calmer hearts...and a better tomorrow that makes these struggles worthwhile.
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Forddaughter
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Username: Forddaughter

Post Number: 4
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 2:55 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well said Gannon
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 5577
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Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 2:56 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's just pray that we ALL get the fuck over ourselves.


That MUST be why Dabirch always looks so damn handsome...mirror abuse.


heh
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1390
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Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:01 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for you kind words Romanized.

Not sure when or why your family moved.

However, those who left the city deserve much of the blame for its collapse.

If everybody didn't leave, then maybe they would be here to vote out "the idiots driving the city toward bankruptcy". Alas, they are not.

People move for a number of reasons, some legitimate, some less so.

To place the blame of the state of detroit solely on the shoulders of the elected officials, is convenient and easy. However, democracy is not supposed to be convenient or easy. In the end, it is the electorate that should be held responsible and not the elected.

And when many of the electorate, both black and white, packed up and moved instead of trying to stay and change things, trying to make things better, then we end up with the situation that we have now.

Citizenship begets responsibility. And when that responsibility is discarded, democracy is weakened.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1625
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Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:10 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Romanized I think you should go fuck yourself dumbass. Who gives a fuck about you and your family moving out of the city? The whole region is dying you clueless fuck, you think you are living in a utopia you are wrong. The problem is you are standing in shit just like the rest of us but because of your rose colored glasses you think you are standing in a flower bed.
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1452
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Posted From: 68.250.205.35
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:11 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dabirch, put a lid on it. I am tired of you being the voice of reason when I am trying to be completely unreasonable.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 875
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Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:11 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"People move for a number of reasons, some legitimate, some less so."

legitimate is a relative term...

it is not up to you to decide who is entitled to leave or stay so stop trying to judge those who have done either.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1626
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:14 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are correct Gravitymachine, it is much more fair to judge the people that live in the city of Detroit.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 876
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Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:19 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I say again, "so stop trying to judge those who have done EITHER"

what part of "EITHER", as in one or the other, or BOTH don't you understand?

I'm just sick of people trying to justify why they live on whatever side of the city line that they do....and I'm even more sick of people trying to pidgeon whole either side into "with" or "against" the city
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 5579
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:20 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get the fuck under yourself, Dial.



Gravity,

Far as I can see, there is no discussion of who is entitiled to do or go anywhere...nor any judgement, just a statement of analysis.

You take out a significant number from one end of the bell curve and the distribution is bound to change...and by this I mean specifically the more affluent reactionary members of Detroit society who move as soon as they can afford it (or the ones in the past who could afford to abandon property)...and their most obnoxious sub-segment, the isolationists.

Isolationists seem to believe that human nature will not follow them into their gated communities. They prefer the illusion of safety and security rather than admitting that we live in an imperfect world surrounded by mere humans.

Reminds me of a short story I penned a few years back...I am de Taliban...when I realized I was actively segregating myself into relative isolation from that which troubles me rather than learning how to deal with it and helping it to not become a larger problem...or bigger yet, just accepting people in whole and working to have us all realize how we affect others.

Next week I'll try to do something about that.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1524
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.217.87
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:21 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

...retarded ain't the right word.



No, the "R" word we should be using is "recall."
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 383
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:22 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Gravity about making a judgement about the "citizenship" of people who left the City. While I continue to live in Detroit, my parents moved from the east-side circa 1974 following the vote-down of Proposal C and the subsequent closing of many east-side Catholic schools. My parents had been Catholic school children and their own oldest children had that priviledge. My parents felt they could not, in good conscience, send their younger children to Denby - a huge lowering of educational opportunity and, even then, a frightening institution. So they moved. Was it race? Was it "abandoning the City"? I do know it saddened them but they felt they had no choice. I am pretty sure that, in the examinations of what happened to Detroit post-1967 riot, the story of the effects of the Proposal C failure ahould be better known and understood.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 877
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:24 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

gannon, someone mentioned that one needed a legitimate reasone to leave the city in his eyes, I'm merely trying to state that he need not concern himself with what others deem a legitimate reason to stay OR go.
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Atl_runner
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Username: Atl_runner

Post Number: 1826
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.209.118.72
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:27 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Blaming the electorate would be racist... right? The leaders are elected to represent. Apparently their representation was fine for the majority. In that case, you cannot blame the minority for wanting a better life.

Random thought, but something so simple, like Term limits (2), may have prevented the mass exodus. Sometimes all it takes is hope.
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Mw2gs
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Username: Mw2gs

Post Number: 155
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 69.213.86.74
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:28 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately it will be the youth who will move this region forward. The older folks have too many deep rooted feelings to ever get past the thing that is holding back true progress. I for one will be glad when you old bastards finally retire, back up, and move to Florida.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1525
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.217.87
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:28 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southwestmap:
Could you refresh my memory, please? What was the Proposal C that you referred to?

Sorry, there are ballot initiatives every couple of years and they all use the same set of letters. I keep forgetting which one is which.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1627
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:32 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem is this isn't just a Detroit issue it is a regional issue but so how Detroit and Detroiters are getting blamed for the zoo closing.

I donít give a shit about where anyone wants to live. Move anywhere you want but donít bitch then about what is going on in the city, you lost that right when you packed up your vote and moved
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 878
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:36 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i totally agree merchant.

edit: with the part about voting that is

(Message edited by gravitymachine on February 21, 2006)
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 384
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:38 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fnemecek: sorry, I had it backwards. It was the passing of Proposal C that led to the closing of most of the Catholic schools in the City in the 1970's. Catholics had hoped to be able to gain some funding for catholic schools, some return on the tax dollars that the parents were paying into the schools funds but not having access to. However, as quoted here:
Proposal C, a Constitutional Amendment barring any form of direct or indirect aid for nonpublic schools

was passed, putting an end to the ability of many schools to go forward. They could just see the end of the road so they closed up shop: St. Rose, St. Charles, St. Philip, St. Martin's, Annunciation and many more.
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Atl_runner
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Username: Atl_runner

Post Number: 1827
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.209.118.72
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:38 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe we all lost that right, but that doesn't mean we still don't care and hope for the best. Also, just because we lost that right, doesn't mean we aren't going to do it (bitch) either.

That being said, I agree with that post at it's core.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1528
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.217.87
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:42 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I donít give a shit about where anyone wants to live. Move anywhere you want but donít bitch then about what is going on in the city, you lost that right when you packed up your vote and moved.



I disagree. One of the great things about this country is that we get to bitch about stuff no matter what.

How many times on this board have we bitched about thing that were happening in Novi, Utica or - more recently - Independence Twp.?

We've bitched about educational decisions that were made in Kansas, even though no one on this board lives in or near Kansas.

Detroit residents have never let geography be a barrier to expressing our opinions. We can't, therefore, realistically expect our suburban neighbors to refrain from criticizing us when our elected representatives do something that is incredibly stupid.

Being of African decent isn't a license to act like an idiot and neither is Detroit residency.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 5580
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:50 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gravity,

Wow, I totally missed that 'legitimate' statement, thanks. Read it and glossed it over.

Time to up the caffeine dosage.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1532
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.217.87
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:55 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southwestmap:
Thanks for clarifying.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 879
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:57 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

no problem gannon, I need to learn to use the quote function on here....I'm so used to off-the-shelf message boards that make such functions quick and easy
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1628
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:02 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fnemecek which group of idiocy do you fit into African decent or Detroit resident? Donít blame Detroit or Detroiters if the zoo closes this is a regional issue.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3588
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:10 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.petitiononline.com/ detzoo/petition.html
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Hockey_player
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Username: Hockey_player

Post Number: 194
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.148.213.218
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:17 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If it is a regional issue, and it should be regionally funded, then what reason under that scenario is there for the city to continue owning it?
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 424
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.209.187.90
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:20 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

2 steps forward, 6 steps back.

Should Bill Spencer and Channel 7 even make such great effort to raise funds ?
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1391
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:21 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

People move for a number of reasons, some legitimate, some less so.




I am not sure what is so offensive about this statement.

It is a truism. Clearly some reasons are legitimate, and some are not.

I did not attempt to determine which ones were and which ones were not.

I did not say subjectively moving because of crime is legitimate and moving because of schools are not.

Objectively, there has to be legitimate and illegitmate reasons.

I am in no way trying to determine what those are.

Just an observation and a statement of fact that has so little to do with the overall point I was trying to make.

If you would like, I can say it again:

There are reasons why those who are in power, after generations of marginalization, want to retain power, and will lash out at those, however possible, who try to take it away.

Do I agree with the statements BRC made? No.
Do I want the zoo to close? No.
Do I think there is something here the the entire metropolitan community can learn from? Yes.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2095
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:32 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southwestmap, losing ~40k catholic families to the suburbs in ~15 years (combined with the tailing off of the baby boom generation) are what killed parochial schools in Detroit in the 70's not the inability to finagle public $$$ towards the end to prop up schools in dessicated parishes.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1629
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 68.61.196.207
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:36 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Hockey_player
Member
Username: Hockey_player

Post Number: 194
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.148.213.218
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:17 pm:

------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------
If it is a regional issue, and it should be regionally funded, then what reason under that scenario is there for the city to continue owning it?




I could careless if the city owns it.

But my guess is that some people will complain that Detroit has pumped millions of dollars over the years into the zoo, why should they give up all that they have put into it just because the region is willing to fund it now.
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Damon
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Username: Damon

Post Number: 654
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 172.161.35.94
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:15 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This time last year, it was the Belle Isle Aquarium, now its the DETROIT ZOO?

I think Im going to be sick.
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Romanized
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Username: Romanized

Post Number: 190
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.4.97.70
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:15 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Merchantgander,

Watch your tone on this board you hormonal little bitch. I could give a f*ck about you getting emotional about hearing the truth. Its people like me that can relate to those who leave, that know what it takes to get them back.

It only takes listening to mixed up little twits like yourself to know why this city is hollowing out with the quickness.

(Message edited by Romanized on February 21, 2006)
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Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 385
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:20 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, Rustic, Catholics left the City when their schools closed in the 70's. Lately, the last schools have closed and the churches because the critical mass is too small. Check the history of Proposal C and you will see that the Catholic church in Michigan and the Archdiocese of Detroit saw it as a critical, defining moment.
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Merchantgander
Member
Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1630
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 68.61.196.207
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 6:42 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Romanized I used the same tone as you dumbass. Again I don't give a shit that you left. I know why people leave dumbass, hell my parents moved out of the city, some of my friends have moved out of the city. The problem is there are too many ignorant people like you that arenít intelligent enough to understand the big picture.
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Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2028
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 6:45 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Still waiting for the city to go into receivership and a financial manager appointed to clean up the mess left behind by racists like barbara rose collins...
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Toolbox
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Username: Toolbox

Post Number: 838
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.125.129
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 7:00 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Romanized

Dabirch,

Get the f*ck over yourself...................... Who wants to live next to a prick like you anyways.




I would live next to Dabirch. I hear he has a hot, trampy MILF of a wife. He lives in a pretty sweet area and has some intresting drinking pals.
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Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2098
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.163.181.81
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 8:08 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

swmap, you are absolutely incorrect -- you are putting the symptom ahead of the disease. (Hell the start of public school bussing in Detroit should have been a cash cow for neighborhood Catholic schools -- I know mine got a big influx of former public school students in the first couple of years of bussing. Every couple of years we also got a fresh group of kids from the nearby catholic schools as they closed.) Catholics moved outta Detroit in DROVES in the late 50s, throughout the 60's and early 70's ... consider all of those parishes that opened in greenfield suburbia in the 50's and 60s atop a basically flat metro area base of Catholic families, where were all of these parishoners coming from?

sw, anyway we are waaay off topic ...
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Michigansheik
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Username: Michigansheik

Post Number: 89
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 69.242.214.54
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:56 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

she must drink guiness,

BRILLIANT!!!
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2341
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.131
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:58 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everyone: how would you feel if you received messages or verbal attacks with such derogatory terms such as "monkeys?" That's why Barbara Rose-Collins used the plantation remark. She was speaking to the racists out there who think the city council, a predominately black group, cannot make decisions for themselves.
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Metrodetguy
Member
Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2340
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.248.5.174
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:04 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ltorivia, check again. Collins made her remarks on Monday. Patterson's comments were on Tuesday.
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Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2342
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.131
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:17 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I did not say that Patterson made those remarks, Metro. You know, Rasputin really does make you sound stupid.
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Metrodetguy
Member
Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2342
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.248.5.174
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:26 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ltorivia, constantly citing sources such as Rasputin makes you look and sound stupid. Bottom line, you're still young and confused about who you really want to be in life, and I understand that.

Miss Northwestern University/big city Chicago woman...or come back home and be the wanna-be militant/separatist (with just enough ego fueled by academic credentials to really make yourself look stupid) that is really harming the community but thinks that she's helping

At some point sooner rather than later you're going to have to take a long look at yourself and decide, because in this life, you really can't have it both ways. Think about it.
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Mrjoshua
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Username: Mrjoshua

Post Number: 695
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 69.208.126.37
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:29 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Everyone: how would you feel if you received messages or verbal attacks with such derogatory terms such as 'monkeys?' That's why Barbara Rose-Collins used the plantation remark. She was speaking to the racists out there who think the city council, a predominately black group, cannot make decisions for themselves."

Nothing like employing racism to combat racism. Ms Rose-Collins succeeded in displaying her own insecurity and immaturity. She is an embarrassment to the City of Detroit and should make a public apology. If she refuses to apologize she should be asked to resign. This nonsense is even more disappointing after all the progress that was made during the SuperBowl.
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Matt_the_deuce
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Username: Matt_the_deuce

Post Number: 510
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.248.252
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 1:52 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just saw a clip on the news where she did in fact apologize for the plantation statement. No strings attached - she said she shouldn't have said it and it was wrong to say it...
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 5583
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 3:01 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's pretty cool.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 817
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 3:05 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The more we discuss these city related issues, the more confident I am becoming to know that most of the cities problems stem directly from the city councils chambers.

This say something one day and apologize the next crap is starting to get old here.
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2082
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 68.40.225.35
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 8:18 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good comments mades by some of you - other than dial4hipster - Detroiters are not stupid and we don't always elect "retards". I will admit that BR Collin's comments were pretty dumb and unfortunately so dumb that they are drawing people from the real issue - the zoo!

But we as Detroiters have had almost everything taken from us - they are trying to ensure that the deal is fair for Detroiters! I am not sure what will happen but I agree with Merchant that I would rather have police and safety than a zoo that mostly benefits the suburbs.

I am at a draw on this issue...not sure where I stand yet. But I am not blaming either party yet till I have more facts. NPR seemed to do a good report yesterday that was somewhat balanced but I dont rely on the News and the Freep for anything. They are AGAINST Detroit and will make the mayor and CC look as bad as they can.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1392
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 8:52 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I would live next to Dabirch. I hear he has a hot, trampy MILF of a wife. He lives in a pretty sweet area and has some intresting drinking pals.




Why thanks, I'll let the little lady know how her reputation has grown...
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 1709
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.2.148.42
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 8:52 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many Detroiters are stupid, and we have a long history of city officials saying embarassing things. (he wasn't elected, but does anybody remember Donald Lobsinger?)
But we are no more/less stupid than the rest of the country.
Did anyone catch Sen. Rick Santorum's blaming of the Catholic Church Pedophilia scandal on "liberalism" a while back?
Give the people a little credit. Alonzo Bates is out of office.
BRC has stepped up to the plate as the councilperson most likely to spew foolishness. JoAnn Watson is close behind.
There's always going to be elected officials who get there by appealing to people's ignorance.
The Bush-Cheney regime is a perfect example.
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Rjk
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Username: Rjk

Post Number: 260
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 9:09 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Everyone: how would you feel if you received messages or verbal attacks with such derogatory terms such as "monkeys?""

Since I'm not a ten year old child I'd ignore it.
And if I'm a politician who is looked to for leadership I would certainly hope that I wouldn't let my public comments be governed by some idiots who have access to the internet/telephone.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 135
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 9:10 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"But we as Detroiters have had almost everything taken from us..."

When is this self-defeating entitlement mentality ever going to stop? Try self-empowerment first.

Kids could help themselves in later life by going to school and geting a real education, not dropping out or getting just a meaningless HS diploma. An academic base is good enough for starters. The major remaining pieces should fall into place after that...
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2086
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 63.149.5.130
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 10:18 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Barnesfoto - Good comments. But don't forget the stupidest vote of all - 51% of this country voted for that idiot George W Bush - the man who lied and got us into a trillion dollar war!
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2344
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.131
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 10:27 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Metrodetguy, you know NOTHING about me, so while you can continue to condescend me by bringing up my education (who is the dumb one, Metro???), I believe what the city council is doing is fair. We need to know the real deal about this. I refuse to throw insults and names at the city council when most of us do not know the entire reason why the Council rejected the original proposal.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 141
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 10:36 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"...51% of this country voted for that idiot George W Bush - the man who lied and got us into a trillion dollar war!"

Sounds like someone is brushing his/her teeth with gunpowder and shooting off his/her mouth.

I passed the CPA exam three decades ago, and still I cannot understand the manner in which these war costs in that statement were determined. [Perhaps, the above claim has no basis in fact...]

A much saner source other than a raving forumer for the cost in Iraq is from the anti-war Nation Priorities Project - around $243 billion.

(Message edited by livernoisyard on February 22, 2006)
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 724
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.39.170.77
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 10:45 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Why thanks, I'll let the little lady know how her reputation has grown...




From the man who tried to trade her for a sweater...
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Dabirch
Member
Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1395
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 10:47 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ouch...

But it was no ordinary sweater - it was a cardigan.
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Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon

Post Number: 5585
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 10:48 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, you're right 'yard...$250 billion here, $250 billion there...who's to amplify that to a trillion, right?


But then again, how long have we been in the action...around three years? Since some people have estimated that we get to keep managing this mess for another seven years it just might BE a trillion dollar war action before it is done.

Perhaps it has no basis in fact totalling today, but is certainly valid over the expected run of this action these cowboys started.


Great website, though, thanks for the link.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 142
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 10:55 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh! I get it - not. And Ild is an objective, Bush-hating historian and Art Bell/George Noory time-traveller.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 5586
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 11:03 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just because ILD isn't objective you have to pick at their amplifying a cost estimate by what, 3.5 to 4 times of what it currently IS?


Hell, even that website you posted increases faster than the sales ticker on the old McDonald's signs...and that is just on cost estimates, right?!


Now if we factor in the increased efforts to counteract the great recruitment tool we have become for our enemy there...we might get to a trillion even faster--WEE!! Big fun.

Not.
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2087
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 63.149.5.130
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 11:05 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernois- I am not bashing the CC (I think BR Collins comment were dumb as it is drawing attention away from the real problem) - I think they voted against it because they did not understand enough of the ramifications of what they were voting for. Apparently it landed on their desks with little digest time. I am against giving away what we have. I am also tired of the press and suburbanites (many are on this forum) telling us what to do! I am also tired of being called a dumb Detroiter because of who I voted for (yes I voted for KK). I think part of the solution is the suburbanites need to cough up some money for what they mostly use in our city! Someone else said it on here - they don't have any culture (Somerset does not count) and so they come to get ours! My guess is that zoo has 75% non-Detroit residents there everyday.

With the war cost I threw out a trillion as that is what the war will probably end up costing PLUS over many years - not what we have spent now. Regardless of the dollar amount it was a lie that got us there and that money could be doing a lot more here in the US OR abroad in assisting with health funding or education programs.
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The_aram
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Username: The_aram

Post Number: 4693
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.213.175.233
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 11:10 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

dont rely on the News and the Freep for anything. They are AGAINST Detroit and will make the mayor and CC look as bad as they can.




That's a pretty strong and baseless statement. Care to back it up with facts?
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2345
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.131
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 11:15 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ilovedetroit, I blame the entire media for painting an image of "us vs. them." The City Council was never against the Detroit Zoo; rather, they would not vote for something they had not thoroughly examined. It would have been careless of them to ratify it, and then realize later that they would lose rights in the bid too. People can cry, howl, and scream all they want; I back the city council in this decision. The Zoo will stay open. Just don't paint the City Council as a group of imbeciles.

(Message edited by ltorivia485 on February 22, 2006)
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1953
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Username: 1953

Post Number: 692
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 209.104.146.146
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 11:21 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The city council is clearly incompetant and largely racist.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 143
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 11:31 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I am against giving away what we have."


A city that is grossly in debt [What is the bonded debt part of it up to already - a measly $1.7 billion plus?] doesn't really own much. It owes instead and takes it from taxpayers - wherever it can...
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Rosedaleken
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Username: Rosedaleken

Post Number: 133
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.43.125.146
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 11:36 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some of these reps leave alot of doubt. At least with McPhail we had some guarantee of competence, mixed with personality flaws. Now we just have the flaws. What does Conyers know? Reeves? It's a recipe for disaster. I resent having to agree with the Mayor too.

And ILD, you probably still resent the election coverage. Document some bias or let it go.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1397
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:01 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

they would not vote for something they had not thoroughly examined




Ummm...have you ever been to a city council vote?

Trust me, they vote every day on things that they have not thoroughly examined.

Maybe not on things as important as the zoo...but they do it frequently.
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 727
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.39.170.77
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:13 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And how can Councilmember Conyers take the Administration to task by saying on Monday that they were sending "BooBoo the Fool" (Ron Kagan) to their offices all week to talk about the plan and present them with the plan and then in the next breath have her fellow members say that they can't vote on it because it was "just" dropped on them?
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1454
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.250.205.35
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:14 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to clarify that I don't have a problem with the CC examining this issue further - ok, well I don't have a HUGE problem with it.

My issue is tied to the hypocrisy of several of our local politicians and to the obvious mental illness of BRC. My issues with her go back 15 years and my beliefs become more firmly held as time goes on.
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2088
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 63.149.5.130
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 12:37 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rosedaleken - I have no election "bias"...I don't care anymore. As long Lord Voldemoort didn't win I am happy. :-)

With this issue. I think the mayor's office probably didn't do the proper job of lobbying the CC. Yes, Monica Conyers may have said that Kagan (who I am not a big fan of) was lobbying all week but I believe the final plan arrived late? If that is case I would never vote on lobbying till I saw and read the plan. I DO think the mayor's office is doing the right thing. The zoo is a luxury that we cannot afford in its current state of management. I do not know the answer. I wish I did. I do know that we should not give it away. I do know that the suburbanites need to cough up help with the zoo. Those are things that I know.
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Llyn
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Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1421
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.61.197.206
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 2:03 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm really sorry I missed the earlier part of this thread where all y'all were bitchin about people bitchin about people who bitch. That was sweet.

"Unfortunately it will be the youth who will move this region forward. The older folks have too many deep rooted feelings to ever get past the thing that is holding back true progress. I for one will be glad when you old bastards finally retire, back up, and move to Florida."

Which reminds me of a completely different "R" word...
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Zulu_warrior
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Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2523
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.251.27.41
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 2:15 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1953

Thats the Warren City Council, right?
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Quickdrawmcgraw
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Username: Quickdrawmcgraw

Post Number: 47
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 63.77.247.130
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 2:16 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keepin it real:

1. Folks on this forum need to stop the foolishness. Some of y'all are acting like the group that is currently in office, city and suburb alike.

2. As a Detroit & Black Resident, I have elected for folks in office (unfortunately some didn't get in) to represent the city administration and do so with a level of decorum. Race-baiting is not going to make our city a world-class city for anyone in this region. Why should I even suggest folks to move to this area when I have politicians and folks on here actin' ridiculously.

3. The CC has a point and it is their choice to make an informed decision. What the CC should have done, knowingly how folks are passionate about an institution, is made a public announcement on why they didn't accept the proposal and requested to be given ample time. Proactivity wins over reactivity.

4. The City needs to be ran like a business and unfortunately we don't have everyone on the CC that has the mindset.

5. The KK administration is not off the hook considering they shouldn't have dropped a deadline driven proposal last minute with changes. It wasn't fair time for appropriate decision making no matter how simple it may seem to us. They should be given time to ask the hard questions.

6. The Zoo is a regional attraction and everyone should have a right to say about the institution and its future politically, socially, culturally or otherwise. Everyone has a stake in it. If this survives then we can move on to other institutions where all in the region and visitors can benefit.

And to keep it real, we all know what group attends and pays admission more to the zoo. Let's wake up!!!
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Metrodetguy
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Username: Metrodetguy

Post Number: 2344
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.248.10.75
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 5:17 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Again Ltorivia, one minute you're flaunting your academic credentials, but the next minute you're acting like a fool quoting Rasputin, quoting "what somebody told you", and throwing out hysterical accusations of racism at anything that you don't agree with, all in order to back up your usually severely flawed point.

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