Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Idea for Train Station?? Previous Next
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Bobj
Member
Username: Bobj

Post Number: 465
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.40.89.238
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 12:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was in Cincinnati last weekend and went to their museum center and took a tour on the history of the building the museums are in. I have been to Cincinnati lots of time and saw the Musuem Center before, but never went in.

Anyway, the building that the Musuems are in (Cincinnati History, Natural History, one other and an Imax Theatre) is their former train station. Construction was started in 1929 and completed I think in 1932. It functioned as a train station for about 40 years, then was mostly closed. Now it houses the museums and a small train station, the center atrium is used for "festivals" (last week end was Art in Appalachia), and then parts of the building are restored as a testimony to the original use and can be toured.

It is a beautiful art deco building. There were thousands of people there last Saturday.

Although our train station would not really be suitable for a museum center, I thought it was a great reuse of a beautiful landmark building. I saw this a lot when I took tours of Lisbon and Barcelona as well.

Other than police hq, has there been creative ideas floated for the train station?
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.33.56.156
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 12:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

land around public park space is usually a great investment. for years, i wondered why nothing has been accomplished for the train station. that entire area around the park could be spectacular.
the depot could be residences due to its shape with retail on the first floor. oh well--sometimes i say to myself---only in detroit are these ideas not motivating.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 68
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.60.133.115
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 1:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to see the first floor retail. 1/3 of the tower as office space and the final 2/3 of the building, residential. On the Michigan Central Station, I have kind of lost hope for the building. It seems as if the building will sit and rot for another 6 years and then just be demolished. If the station got renovated it would have a huge affect on Corktown and would probably pave the way for a new use for Tiger Stadium. I will keep some hope, but it is slowly fading.....
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 125
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 2:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a plus, it has underground parking!

I agree that the top portion would function well as a residential tower, but I question how practical that would be financially. Technically, the few number of units that would fit into that building and be sold would not even come close to equating the cost of a renovation. We are talking 300 million minimum to renovate this place.

I still think MCS would make a wonderful hotel/casino. There's those beautiful open vaulted rooms and mezzanines that would be perfect for such uses. The back of the building can also be expanded if necessary. And as I mentioned, the underground parking structure is already there.
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Bobj
Member
Username: Bobj

Post Number: 469
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.40.89.238
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 2:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rbdetsport,

Unfortunately, I think you are right, Michigan Central will most likely be demoed with the current thinking around here and the cost to renovate.

Corktown could really benefit by having something happen with Tiger Stadium and Michigan Central
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 170
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 3:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A casino in that building would be amazing. I wish the Archer administration would have made it a requirement that all the new casinos be placed in abandoned structures.

(Message edited by Johnnny5 on February 25, 2006)
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L_b_patterson
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Username: L_b_patterson

Post Number: 285
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.229.206.0
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 5:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hall of justiceatcha!
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Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 126
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 7:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Questions are:

Who would pay for the demolition of that building, is there money available to remove it?

Why demolish it? Why spend the money anyway? Is there some significant value in the land it sits on?

Am I suggesting we let it sit around forever? Possibly. People seem to find a poetic likeness for the building from all over the country, and the building gets 100's, maybe even thousands of visitors each year. Maybe one of those days, someone will come along with the money to fix it up.

The building isn't going to deteriorate much more than the condition it is now. This is good from a preservation standpoint. It can allow some time for the city or Maroun to find developers. Maybe it just isn't the building's tiime yet.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 829
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 10:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For the sake of the neighborhood, find something to make of it. Yes, it is a beautiful building, but there has got to be something they can do with it. Living half a mile away from it now, I now see it more regularly than before and I find it to be one of the most beautiful buildings in Detroit. My out of towner father-in-law found it amazing. I also hinted at him to discuss this issue with the tribe (He works for Kewadin in the Soo) about how great a casino would go there.)

Also my brother-in-law filmed his music video there recently. From my understanding, they charge a pretty hefty sum just to use the building.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 1040
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Its going to be a converted into tomb for Manny.
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 128
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Every year the U of M architecture school does a formal that usually has a couple hundred in attendance. We looked at renting the station to make the event interesting, but it was a bit out of our price range. Instead, we rented a vacant warehouse that has working restrooms and security. We'd have to rent all that in addition with getting space within MCS. I'm hoping the money generated from people using the station for certain activities is going to pay for its renovation.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 833
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Psip...nice one!!!
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Leyland
Member
Username: Leyland

Post Number: 59
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 207.74.209.4
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hall of JusticeYES! Wasn't one of the Green Lanterns from Detroit?

Broken_main, who is your brother in law? What band is he in?

I thought the idea to make it Police HQ was stupid... it should be turned into something that would make money and that people would enjoy.
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Broken_main
Member
Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 835
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He is in a local band out in Grand Rapids. His groups name is Dissonant or Dessonant...never good with the spelling.
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 129
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 12:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I thought the idea to make it Police HQ was stupid... it should be turned into something that would make money and that people would enjoy."

You could enjoy it if you got arrested!
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 391
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 35.12.22.213
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 12:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wolverine wrote, "The building isn't going to deteriorate much more than the condition it is now."

I doubt that. It looks like hell now but it'll easily get worse. Water will continue to do its relentless work, infiltrating cracks and gaps. Freeze thaw, freeze thaw, spall and crack, the whole structure getting more unstable each year. Sure the steel skeleton may stay intact, but if all the masonry gets shot to hell and falls apart, what's the point?
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2114
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 1:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you wanna play fantasy with the MCS:

(Note this will never would ever happen BUT...)

Tear down the eyesore office tower (which is the real eyesore blight). The train station itself could have made an IDEAL train museum (affiliated with the Ford museum). Imagine visitors to the Ford could take a train to the MCS train museum (or the other way around). Trains parked on various tracks. Historic engines in the lobby wings ...

Pure fantasy of course.

Slightly more pragmaticly, the best thing that could possibly happen to the MCS is outraged SE mighiganders force Maroun to tear that schitt down ... with a pointless office tower above it and it's distance from the CBD it was a white elephant the day it was built. 90 years later given the ups and downs of metro Detroit is even more of a pointless husk. (This will likely never happen ...)

The second best thing that could possibly happen is the CoD forces Maroun to secure and repair the building in at least a mothballed state as it is currently a public nusiance and hazard in its present condition. (This also will never happen, of course.)
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 130
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 1:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, the key is to prevent moisture infiltration within the cavity between the wall. The parapet is fortunately designed in such a way that such infiltration would be minimal. In fact, the roof is in fairly good condition with no visble cracks or seams in the seels that would allow water to get into the walls below. On each level, the walls still remain plastered for the most part. As long as they remain this way, it should prevent water from deteriorating the mortar joints of the interior masonry. Other than that, the structural system doesn't appear to be affected from the elements. Rather, any damage that has occured appears to be the result of scarring from interior demo, abatements, and maybe vandalism.

Realize, that most of the visible decay is cosmetic to the building. I have yet to witness any severe structural problems with this building that I only see in other abandoned buildings due to the type of construction.

It's already known that the entire facade will need replacement. I was implying however, that we aren't going to see chunks of the cornice collapsing or the domes falling down within the next 30 years because of the way the building was built. I know my two years of classes about masonry, steel, and reinforced concrete isn't enough to determine the precise structural conditions of MCS, but from what I've seen in the station firsthand, and based on what I know, I don't think we have to worry too much about making repairs immediately.
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56packman
Member
Username: 56packman

Post Number: 68
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 129.9.163.234
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 1:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JohnnyS--bravo--That's what I thought (and said) when the whole casino thing was brewing--Instead of buying and condemming half of the E. Jeff riverfront, the city says "OK, there are going to be three licences issued, one will be for the Book Cadillac, one fo rMCS and the other one for the Fort-Shelby. Don't tell us you can't afford it--if anyone can , you guys can" that's it. My former employer was attempting to obtain one of the three licences and only had plans to locate in MCS. There were drawings and models executed for presentation. But Archer did what he did (he ran a fairly honest administration compared to what came before and after him) but his sister-in-law was in charge of what stayed, and what was demo'ed, and there wasn't much vision or feeling there. Bulldozers will roll on MCS late one night, in defiance of any court order, and once again, it'll be "to late to save it, oh well, it has to come down now" and no one will spend a minute in court or jail as a result. In the words of Homer Simpson " Ahh, very nice, Detroit style".
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 775
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 4:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sadly, I think given the current economy in Michigan, we will se sometime in the next 2 years the demolition of MCS. No one has the capital right now to sink into projec to use the MCS. Just look how long it is taking the get the financing together for the Book Cadillac. It is going to happen, but it has taken a long time to get all the pieces together.
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Corktownmark
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Username: Corktownmark

Post Number: 168
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 68.61.194.191
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 4:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

why talk about casino locations, you planning number 4? Question for Wolvorine were did the 300 M number come from? Office or justice center sound better then empty or casino to me.
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Matt_the_deuce
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Username: Matt_the_deuce

Post Number: 523
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.248.252
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 5:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IMO It won't get demo'd any time soon - it would cost too much money. The fact that the city and the state are broke will prolong it's life.

It's also out of the way a bit - not in the CBD. So the political pressure to demo it isn't that great.

Would dispaying it as a ruin really work?

I think it would. The first accepted ruin (structure of that scale) in the US. Imagine that building with a great light display (all white/soft yellow) If you thought it looked cool now, I could only imagine what it would look like lit properly.

The pshycological commitment to that is pretty enourmous though. Then there's the whole economic committment. When will the time come where the best use for the site is redevelpment?
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Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 131
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 9:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The 300 M is what I recall coming out of the engineering study (which also found demo to be not practical with Detroit's finances) Actually the cost is within a range 200-300 Million to renovate except I'd expect it to be more if the station is expanded, or enhancements were made to its underground parking. I recall Kwame tossing out a lower cost for a renovation which was plain silly.

Having a designated ruin in Detroit would be something different, although I'm not saying that is the best idea. People are fascinated and mystified by it. It's really quite surprising how the interior is not as bad as it looks from the outside. Maybe this is due to periodic cleanup of the building or something. I always thought it would be nice if the public could somehow get a glimpse of the interior, but there would be so much insurance risks involved.
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 8
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 12.45.2.92
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 9:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh but it gets better. Not only could Greyhound move their DETROIT HQ there, but Amtrack could move some services there(if Greyhound commits) and add the new DDOT bus depot SMART and DARTA also. Have the entire regional service center all under one roof. Open a couple of small restaurants on the ground floor, and arcade for kids a fountain in Roosevelt Park, a parking deck and you have yourself the making of the largest transportation hub in the nation. Next the city and government could have a international gateway located there with quick access to Canada. Hey you could even take a train to Canada and DETROIT. I start a new tread and add A quick sketch next month if you would like to see my idea. I had it for years.313
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Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 1722
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.2.149.109
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 9:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

keep dreaming. Maroun is a big spender when it comes to land acquisition, but not when it comes to building maintainance.
The cost to demo the place will be pretty high, given the extensive underground tunnels/basements, etc, and though Maroun the Vampire, could easily cover it, he doesn't want to. Thus, every time demolition is discussed by the CC, some phony plan is unveiled, and then...nothing happens.
Maroun is a major contributor to the war chests of both Kwame Kilpatrick, and his mother, Rep. Carolyn Cheeks-Kilpatrick.
So I think the building will hang over the neighborhood for a good while.
I've gotten used to it.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2545
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 9:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



(Message edited by zulu warrior on February 26, 2006)
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2546
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 9:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's my solution......


picture

"Target is acquired, pickels are hot. Zulu Warrior requesting permission to fire?"

"Roger Zulu, fire at will"

picture

"target achived, high order detonation, Zulu returning to base....

picture
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The_rock
Member
Username: The_rock

Post Number: 1023
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.42.251.225
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speaking of trains, the big model train show is this weekend at the Rock Financial Showplace in Novi.
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Hornwrecker
Member
Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 862
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.125
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 12:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't know you were Swedish Zulu, how bout that gold medal in hockey for the Red Wings Swedes. I would have chosen one of these recently retired F-14s with a strike package.

F-14, USS Enterprise (CVN-65) Sea of Japan
(F-14 on elevator, USS Enterprise (CVN-65), Sea of Japan, Hornwrecker 1983)

Rock, another train show this Sunday at Macomb CC South, Gratiot Valley Show.
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Zulu_warrior
Member
Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2548
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.251.27.41
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 12:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We bought a few planes from the Swedes !!!

Shall I order up a strike package? (lol)

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