Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Ave Maria Law Vs. Wayne State Law Previous Next
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Tndetroiter
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Username: Tndetroiter

Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.158.164.229
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've been accepted to both the Ave Maria School of Law and the Wayne State Law School. I'd like some unbiased opinions on both schools from people who are familiar with both.

Ave Maria is giving me $30,000 over 3 years, but Wayne's out of state tution is cheaper and I probably could get my Michigan residency back after a year. Ave Maria has an official concentration in International Law (which is what I want to do) so my degree would state that I concentrated on IL. Wayne has no such concentration, but offers all of the IL courses that Ave Maria does.

If I go to Wayne, I could take courses for credit at the University of Windsor for no extra cost, but I could do the same at U of M if I went to Ave Maria. Both schools have good foreign exchange programs. I think Wayne generally has a better reputation than Ave Maria, but that may change in the next 10 years with the amount of money Monahan is throwing at Ave Maria. Ave Maria already has the highest bar passage rate in Michigan.

I've visited both schools and I really like them both. I don't necessarily agree w/ Ave's conservative idology, but I'm not a Democrat for the same reasons that they're conservative. At the same time, the idea of living in the city appeals to me. Opinions please. It's a tough decision to make and I've got about a month to make it.
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Drm
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Username: Drm

Post Number: 882
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.136.139.55
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wayne State, no question about it. An official "concentration" doesn't mean anything; all that matters is that you earn a JD from the best school that you can get into.
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Drm
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Username: Drm

Post Number: 883
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.136.139.55
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Ave Maria already has the highest bar passage rate in Michigan.


Almost forgot: this is the kind of stat that sub-par law schools like to throw around. Again, it doesn't mean anything. Law school does not prepare you to take the bar exam -- your bar review course does.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 772
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is an article about Ave Maria in this weeks Newsweek, I have not had a chance to read it.
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Rberlin
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Username: Rberlin

Post Number: 398
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.208.244.183
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't Wayne the 2nd rated in the state?
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Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936

Post Number: 320
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 207.200.116.139
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congrats on your acceptance to the two institutions. Don't go quail hunting........
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1044
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

... That might be true for many schools... but dont you think it is something that Ave Maria's law school's exam passage is about 95%? I think that any school that is in that range must be doing something right...

BTW, there is no school, Ave Maria, Wayne State, or Harvard that can adequetly prepare any student for the real life challenges of paperwork, court procedings, and the stress of 90% of your work being being pushing pens.. Not only that, but running a law firm is complicated as any other business.. and working for someone really isnt much better because your first 15 years is going to be doing all the paperwork for your senior partners. No law school can provide you that.. but, they can give you the backround knowledge to figure out ins and outs of the clusterfuked system and give you knowledge of possible loopholes that can earn you a reputation... until you have enough golf games with judges behind you.

.... The lawyers that make the big $$ are the ones that are well connected... not necessarily the ones that went to a good law school. But the less time you have to worry about getting out into the field, the more time you have to make those connections. I think the sooner you get into your craft, the better you will stand sooner in life.

Also consider that Ave Maria is very close to U of M and is a tight nit group.. you might graduate into a class with many of those connections right off the bat... considering where many of the students family's come from... Its very possible that your drinking buddy's dad plays golf with every district court judge in SE michigan every saturday afternoon... Those are the things that are invaluable to your vocation... as hokey as that sounds..
I have several friends that are VERY, and i emphasize VERY sucessful lawyers, and its always the case of how they got there...
Thats how you earn the respect of your clients to blow tens of thousands of their hard earned dollars $$ on you because you can get them through the legal system without them getting screwed...

Unfortunatly, Justice and the law are at best distant cousins... and there are many good people that have been raked through the coals in the legal system... either bogus sexual harassment suits, a worker that sues you because he's addicted to vicodin after he slipped a disk in his back... even AFTER you fully paid for his disability, your workmans comp went up, and the IRS is on you. The good deals you can provide those people is worth the big $$...
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Drm
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Username: Drm

Post Number: 884
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.54.64
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

... That might be true for many schools... but dont you think it is something that Ave Maria's law school's exam passage is about 95%? I think that any school that is in that range must be doing something right...


Yes, that means they might be teaching students to pass the bar exam, rather than providing them with a proper legal education. Big difference.

Picking Ave Maria because its close to Michigan doesn't make sense. My law school was close to lots of other (lesser) law schools and we didn't socialize with them - the students at those schools did not benefit from being near my school, and those students do not work at the caliber of firm that graduates of my school do.

When you're trying to get your first job out of law school, the school you went to makes a huge difference. Success in the field is another thing, and once you've been practicing for a while, nobody cares where you earned your JD. The fact is that Wayne State will open up a lot more doors for a person than will Ave Maria. I bet that you couldn't get an interview at the big firms in Detroit with an Ave Maria JD. And if you can't get an interview in Detroit, forget trying to take that Ave Maria degree to a bigger market, like Chicago. It will get you nowhere.

Wayne State will allow you access to a much larger alumni network of practicing attorneys. This will definitely help you not only to get your first job, but throughout your career.

Ave Maria will do whatever they can to attract quality candidates because they have to. They have no reputation, they have no alumni network, etc. I wouldn't waste my time and money.
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Tndetroiter
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Username: Tndetroiter

Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.158.164.229
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ray,

That's the funniest thing I've heard in a day and a half, maybe three quarters.
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Brian
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Username: Brian

Post Number: 3304
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.32.197
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Its not how good you are as a lawyer but how many people know you came from a popular school. Is that why the quality of lawyers and their lawsuits is awful?

Thank Goodness that the engineering field or even the field of medicine is not like that. Everything would break and then when you went to get a good doctor to fix your broken bones they wouldn't know what to do.
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Tndetroiter
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Username: Tndetroiter

Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.158.164.229
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 11:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think just about everything in life is about who you know.
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Mcpd1300
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Username: Mcpd1300

Post Number: 56
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 68.42.175.57
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 2:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wayne State University, no question.

Ave Maria is a scary scary school. They're right wing ideology cuts VERY deep into almost every aspect of their teachings. It's headed up by Tom Monaghan, the founder of Domino's Pizza. He's rabidly right wing and scary. He actually states he's 9 months older than the birthday on his birth certificate, because he includes the time he was in the womb.
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Everyman
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Username: Everyman

Post Number: 43
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 24.136.14.239
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 8:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drm's advice is spot-on.

Re: hanging out with other schools' students. More likely than not, unless you know someone at the other school, you might see them once or twice a year if there's a joint bar review or something. Even then, it'd probably only be the few hours at the bar.

WSU is probably the superior option, depending on what you want to do.

Do you want to work BIGLAW or its Detroit equivalent?

Do you want to work at a smaller firm?

Do you want a clerkship, some sort of gov't work ... perhaps public interest?

I think these are salient questions. I'm pretty sure Ave Maria just became fully accredited. It has a chance to be a poor man's Notre Dame, IMO, in that it may place clerks better than its ranking would indicate.

I'm a 1L and had to do the whole choosing between schools thing last year, so I feel where you are coming from.
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Czar
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Username: Czar

Post Number: 2937
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 72.49.166.173
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 9:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ave Maria is a scary place. Unlike other Catholic law schools, it pretty much dictates that its faculty need to hold certain positions on the law to teach there. I don't think this would adequately prepare any law student for the real world, unless you plan on volunteering for the current right-wing fundamentalist Christian government militia upon graduation.
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Sarge
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Username: Sarge

Post Number: 217
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.28.88.45
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wayne over Ave Maria any day for the reasons DRM cites.
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 592
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 70.233.4.107
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 2:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A ve_Maria_College

I was sure its moving. So you would be going to school in florida?
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 1347
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 72.25.177.194
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 3:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tndetroiter, first, I'm no lawyer, but these posts were interesting nonetheless. A couple of observations:

Alexei289's post is full of red flags. If you wish to practice law the "old" way, then follow Alexie's sort of thinking: " backround knowledge to figure out ins and outs...clusterfuked system ...knowledge of possible loopholes...earn you a reputation...enough golf games with judges...lawyers that make the big $$...the ones that are well connected... not necessarily the ones that went to a good law school....less time you have to worry about getting out into the field, the more time you have to make those connections...with many of those connections right off the bat... considering where many of the students family's come from...Its very possible that your drinking buddy's dad plays golf with every district court judge in SE michigan every saturday afternoon... Those are the things that are invaluable to your vocation... as hokey as that sounds..I have several friends that are VERY, and i emphasize VERY sucessful lawyers, and its always the case of how they got there...Thats how you earn the respect of your clients to blow tens of thousands of their hard earned dollars $$ on you because you can get them through the legal system without them getting screwed...Justice and the law are at best distant cousins...The good deals you can provide those people is worth the big $$..."

Czar piles on later with more left-wing wacko nonsense - only one place for ya - in that Christian militia!

You mentioned you're not a Dem - and recent Supreme Court activity indicates that the Dems are screaming about losing their big stronghold - bypassing the folks but still getting their way thru judicial activism. You can see by Alexie's post that it starts at the bottom and works its way up.

Brian spotted the absurdity of it when he first quoted, then wisely stated: "'Its not how good you are as a lawyer but how many people know you came from a popular school.' Is that why the quality of lawyers and their lawsuits is awful? Thank Goodness that the engineering field or even the field of medicine is not like that. Everything would break and then when you went to get a good doctor to fix your broken bones they wouldn't know what to do."

There are many ways to practice law, and there are great lawyers getting folks successfully thru this system without huge bucks. If your sole issue is to make big bucks, then by all means take the "ho" route - Alexie describes that group perfectly and you'll have money galore and friends to laugh and drink with until you die. It also is hardly the way the system is supposed to work - but since it makes lots of money, many protect it.

Mcpd1300 displays his true leftist colors & ignorance by his post "Ave Maria is a scary scary school. They're right wing ideology cuts VERY deep into almost every aspect of their teachings. It's headed up by Tom Monaghan, the founder of Domino's Pizza. He's rabidly right wing and scary. He actually states he's 9 months older than the birthday on his birth certificate, because he includes the time he was in the womb."

What Mcpd1300 is upset about is that Monaghan is openly Catholic and practicing his beliefs, including being pro-life. The idea that life begins by having a unique DNA created at the moment of conception and a beating heart a few short days afterward is absurd to Mcpd1300. In France, you have one birthday - the day you were born. Those annual events that follow are anniversaries of your birth, or "anniversaires". Other cultures also count those 9 months in the womb as part of your age. Mcpd1300 is simply another leftie frightened that the very left-leaning legal system in the USA may be infiltrated or influenced by those with moral & political views different than the status quo, threatening his fading political high ground and perhaps his stronghold on even concervative's reliance on lefties for legal advice. Think "I'm melting, I'm melting."

In a nutshell and IMHO, Drm & Everyman get it right - even tho I must admit I'm a Wolverine.

I hope that in the end, you will make a choice both in schools and in practice that you can, later in life, explain in great detail to your Mom, your spouse, your children & your grandchildren, and that they will be very proud of you - and that you, in turn, will have ample reason to be proud of yourself.
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Mcpd1300
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Username: Mcpd1300

Post Number: 57
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 68.42.175.57
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 3:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, Karl, I'm a Catholic as well. What you and Monaghan are preaching are extreme right wing interpretations of Catholic law, some of which the Vatican don't even agree with. We all have the right to our opinions. I don't disagree with that. However, in the interest of the best education for law, I think it'd be a much better option to attend a school that has a viable future in continuing education, not a school that has to run to Florida and is currently entangled in a legal battle.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 774
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 4:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would also seek the advice of friend or contacts you may have in the field of law. They will help you look at choosing a school that best fits you. Politics is involved in everything, you can not avoid it. The best judicial minds are ones that try not to look at issues from personal standpoint, but by the letter of the law. I would choose a school that best fits you want out of an education, and what offers you the chance to best prepare you personally for your future career. I am also Catholic, and much like what Mcpd1300 and others have said, what has been written is an extreme right wing interpretation of Catholic Law.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 1350
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.230.22.99
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 4:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds like even for Catholics, Ave Maria would still be a good choice, since you'll learn things it appears you won't learn elsewhere. Upon graduation, you'll still be totally immersed in the mess of the current legal system anyway for the rest of your career. Seems like an intelligent mind might be better for the short experience at Ave Maria.
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Gdub
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Username: Gdub

Post Number: 993
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.221.78.226
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 4:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ave Maria, not just a school, but soon to be its own town (in Florida, of course). From Newsweek:

"Though he says nonbelievers are welcome, Monaghan clearly wants the community to embody his conservative values. He controls all the commercial real estate in town (along with his developing partner, Barron Collier Cos.) and is asking pharmacies not to carry contraceptives. If forced to choose between two otherwise comparable drugstores, Barron Collier would favor the one that honored that request, says its president and CEO, Paul Marinelli. Discussing his life as a millionaire Catholic who puts his money where his faith is, Monaghan says: 'I believe all of history is just one big battle between good and evil. I don't want to be on the sidelines.'"

Creepy.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11 434439/site/newsweek/
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 778
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 4:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I smell lawsuit. This guy will take federal money for some part of his plan, then they will force him to follow the federal law and poof, there goes Monahan's bubble.
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65memories
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Username: 65memories

Post Number: 243
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.73.57.235
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 4:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wayne State...far superior. And as a Catholic, I can warn you: don't get caught up in any Monoghan religious extremism. You might as well go to Falwell's Liberty University
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Jiminnm
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Username: Jiminnm

Post Number: 314
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 69.241.164.222
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 5:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Having a law degree from Wayne, I do have a prejudice towards them. I went there after working in the business world for several years and was impressed with the overall quality of the students and the faculty. Wayne has an excellent reputation in Michigan, less so out of state. U of M has the out of state panache, but I think the homage given their legal education is a bit overblown. Deserved or not, I expect there may be a bit of baggage associated with a degree from Ave Maria until they've been around longer.

Bar exam passage rates can be misleading, although Wayne's is usually 1st or 2nd. By your second year end, you'll have taken the vast majority of the courses that will be tested on the bar exam. The rest are elctives you choose. But, bar exam review courses are essential for fundamental review and exam taking techniques (I took BarBri and PMBR). Wayne has some clinical law classes where you may actually handle some pro bono cases. Their moot court teams are always highly ranked. You need to think about where you might want to work and utilize the employment info the school has (Wayne has excellent placement services and gets a lot of firms in to interview students each semester).

Alexei is giving you a pretty cynical perspective on a legal career, and one that's not entirely true. You can make your career what you want it to be. I know a lot of lawyers who started their careers knowing no one, with no contacts, that became quite successful because they were really good at what they did. If you know that International Law is your desire, then look for the firms and companies that need that expertise. Develop your own legal expertise, attend related bar seminars and conferences when you can, join the related bar committees, write for the legal publications in your field, and develop your business expertise because I expect that a fair amount of Intl Law will concern intl business dealings and transactions. Knowing someone may get you in the door, but solid performance keeps you there and opens more doors. If you're in the transactional field, I expect much of your long term success will depend on how creative you are in closing difficult transactions when difficult negotiations might otherwise end without a deal. Oh yes, you'll work a ton of hours initially, and only slightly less later.

I worked for a corporation and not a law firm, and taught occasionally in the evening. I did not have the pressure to bring in clients, but instead had to deal with the same ones over and over (a different type of stress), and there also were different budgetary constraints (especially if managing outside counsel).
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3617
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.251.9.62
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 6:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Sounds like even for Catholics, Ave Maria would still be a good choice, since you'll learn things it appears you won't learn elsewhere.



Ave Maria was founded by Catholics like Tom Monaghan that wish to shape and form a cadre of lawyers focused on fighting battles for christian right. The lead lawyers on the Pennsylvania intelligent design case were from Ave Maria. Make no doubt about it, the school is the Catholic Law version of Bob Jones University.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 210
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 68.41.162.189
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 8:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've heard nothing but good things about Ave Maria. It takes a special kind of person to go there, I'll bet. I don't know the quality of the overall legal education, but it should appeal to conservatives and others who wish to to challenge many of the ultra-liberal views on things. As a Catholic, I would certainly have considered going there if for no other reason that.

However, I'm a WSU Law graduate and practiced law until 1979. I had a great legal education. I enjoyed it. I was very stimulated by my professors. One of my sons is a U of M Lawschool graduate and I think he got a good education, but not as good as WSU's. I was hiring partner in my law firm (20+ lawyers) and although I recruited at U. of M. I hired only one person from the school and that did not work out. I did hire 3 from WSU and they are now very successful. I tried to hire folks who struggled to get thru, had families, and had to take a lot of night school courses. They struggled to get thru and that counted more with me than a U. of M. grad who's resume had his/her grade point average out to 4 decimal places. I wanted to hire people who could find the court house. U. of M. is a highly rated school and you'd have a better chance of getting a job w/ a silk stocking law firm than if you graduated from WSU or Ave maria, but in the long run you'll do great having graduated from either school.

Good luck.
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Romanized
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Username: Romanized

Post Number: 194
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.4.97.70
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 8:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While your points might have merit, for this debate to have any credibility, you must also talk about the left wing slant of most other universities.

I personally don't have a huge problem with it. But it would be hypocritical to call a school creepy for its right wing affiliations, while ignoring the majority leftest faculties of many other colleges.
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Everyman
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Username: Everyman

Post Number: 44
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 24.136.14.239
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 8:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the affiliation debate is overplayed unless he/she is looking for a clerkship. On SCOTUS, Scalia commonly picks from Notre Dame, a school that pales in comparison to most of the schools that get clerks.

Granted, neither school is gonna get you a clerkship there. I also don't know that either school has gotten any CoA clerks, at least anytime recently. On the state/district level, it'd be the boost provided by the extensive WSU network vs. the (almost certainly) smaller boost provided by zestfully Catholic judges.

So, unless you want to do a clerkship with a really Catholic or conservative judge then work in litigation *or* become a member of the Monaghan army, I really don't see anyway you could justify picking Ave Maria. This is particularly true given the rumblings about the LS being moved to Florida.

My (probably) final $0.02 given the way I recently went through the process.
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Spaceman_spiff
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Username: Spaceman_spiff

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 24.56.252.143
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 10:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tndetroiter,

First off, congratulations on your acceptance to law school. I am currently in my first year at ave maria, so I understand the decision making process you are going through right now. Although I chose Ave, I was offered scholarships to many other schools, including Wayne state. I attended classes at U of M, MSU/Detroit college of law, U of T, Wayne, and U of D Mercy as well as Ave before making my decision, and I advise you to do the same. However, obviously I attended only a class or two at each, and therefore I can only speak about Ave with any kind of accuracy.

Tom Monaghan is one of the benafactors and founders of the school, along with a number of its faculty. For information on the construction of Ave Maria town in Florida, check out www.whoseamsol.blogspot.com. Currently, only the undergraduate institution in ypsilanti is being moved, and no decisions have been announced regarding the law school. When I was looking into Ave, I was told that the school would not be moved 1. before 2008 and 2. without recieving authorization from the ABA.

As a student at Ave Maria, I can state with full confidence that the education available there is excellent. However, they certainly do possess a specific, faith-based mission. This mission is reflected daily in their classes, seminars, guest speakers, and even their student organizations. There is a pro-life club, but no pro-choice club; a college republicans, but no college democrats (or green party), group. Most of the students are conservatives, and almost all of the faculty and staff seem to be.

I am a liberal, agnostic, pro-choice democrat with a less than perfect personal history. My classmates know all of this information (less a few sordid details) and there is little or no tension relating to my opinions and beliefs in the school. Of my closest friends at Ave, there are just as many muslims or protestants as conservative catholics, and even a few non believers. It is a small school, and this has all the normal effects; a close interaction with faculty combined with knowing the names of your classmates significant others without ever meeting them. There is a strong catholic identity especially among the administration and faculty. This identity is most obvious when every class period begins with 75% of the class saying a hail mary or an our father before discussing the erie doctrine or concurrent tortfeasors. After that, I would say that the discussion parallels that of any other school.

I have a good friend from undergrad who just graduated from Wayne, and he speaks highly of it as well. Both should be good choices, I've never really been sure how much of the reputation of a school is hype. I think that the quality of an education depends more on the person's effort to learn than the quality of the school. Feel free to email me if you have any questions, or if you can get to the D, we could give you a tour of Wayne and Ave. Good Luck and Best Wishes
-Spiff
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2424
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 10:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is Judge Bork still teaching a class there?
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Mcpd1300
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Username: Mcpd1300

Post Number: 58
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 68.42.175.57
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 3:38 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Refreshingly good post Spaceman_spiff. Thank you for a very acknowledging commentary regarding Ave.

I still, am very scared of the rhetoric that has floated out of Monaghan's mouth (and pocketbook), but your post has changed my overall opinion of Ave Maria as a school.

Thank you very sincerely...
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Czar
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Username: Czar

Post Number: 2938
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 129.137.179.215
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everyman, ND's Law School is a top 25 law school according to most rankings. That said, there is a disturbing creep to the right at that law school ever since Scalia joined the Supreme Court. He picks a lot of clerks from ND's law school and, in turn, ND's law school hires a lot of Scalia's former clerks for teaching positions.
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Spaceman_spiff
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Username: Spaceman_spiff

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 24.56.252.143
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Judge Bork teaches at least one class at Ave that I know of. I am currently taking a course which is taught jointly by Bork and the dean of the law school. However, it only totals two credits across the academic year.
-Spiff
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 1362
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.230.22.99
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Czar, after reading Alexei289's very enlightening post above, some folks are delighted to see, as you call it, "a disturbing creep to the right" anywhere in the legal system, including the law schools.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 181
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 12:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The funny (i.e., strange) thing is when leftists self-delude themselves into believing that they're centrists and that they speak for the majority.
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Tndetroiter
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Username: Tndetroiter

Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 149.149.7.228
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 1:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl,
I could have phrased my first post a little better. I am a Democrat, but not for the social reasons (I oppose abortion, gay marriage, and the death penalty). I'm a Democrat because I think the Republican Party's economic and tax policies are ludacris. I don't necessarily agree w/ ALL Democratic policites, but I find myself agreeing w/ the Dems more than the GOP. One of my favorite books is "What's the Matter with Kansas" by Thomas Frank (sans the disparaging Detroit references). That being said, I volunteered to help w/ a Democratic Congressional campaign in Louisville, KY in '04 and it was one of the most disillusional experiences of my life. Anyways, I'll write more (on law schools), but I have to go to class right now.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 242
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 1:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'Pizza pope' builds a Catholic heaven:
http://tinyurl.com/pe43z
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Tndetroiter
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Username: Tndetroiter

Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 149.149.7.228
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 2:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When you say Judge Bork, do you mean Robert Bork?

Bob, I'm currently finishing up my B.A. here at Tennessee Tech. That being said, the legal prefessionals I know down here aren't that familiar w/ either Wayne or Ave Maria. They're more familiar w/ school like Vandy, UT, Memphis, Samford, 'Bama, Georgia, Ole Miss, ect. I'm considering Wayne and Ave because I'm ready to come home.

I've also been accepted to Michigan State, but I visited the place and didn't really like it, it seemed more like a facotry hell bent on pumping out lawyers rather than creating them. I've also been wait-listed at Penn State and Valparaiso, but am not giving much consideration to either. I've still yet to hear from Oregon, but expect a reply anytime now.

Spiff, do you know of any students at Ave that have taken a class/classes at U of M? I know that at Wayne I can take classes at Windsor and considering that I'm interested in International Law, it might be beneficial to recieve some Canadian instruction.

I did like the close-knit vibe I got from Ave's student body when I visited there, but the faculty at Wayne seemed very nice when I visited there, too. Its a tough decision, but I am kinda leaning towards Wayne. I remember when I was about 15 a lawyer friend of my Dad's mentioned that Wayne produced good nuts and bolts lawyers and I told myself when I started applying to different schools that I would go to Wayne if Notre Dame said no (and ND did say no), but I really liked Ave when I visited it. Anyways....
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 1365
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 72.25.177.194
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 2:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tndetroiter, would enjoy talking more with you about the economic and tax policies of both parties, if you have an e-mail contact please let me know. Good luck in choosing schools.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1453
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 2:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't really know much about law, but remember that Ave is on the edge of a small city, and WSU is in the center of a big one.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3628
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.103.104.93
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 5:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tndetroiter....

For all that is good in the world, read the link Jimaz posted. That should answer any lingering doubt as to the real mission and scope of Ave Maria. If you don't think that will translate down through how classes are taught and what is omitted / added / skewed you are sadly mistaken. Any place that goes to such extremes will have no problem throwing out anything that does contradicts their ideology.

(Message edited by skulker on February 27, 2006)
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Mjb3
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Username: Mjb3

Post Number: 91
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.145.222.252
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 5:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you go to Ave Maria, you could work hand in hand with Tom sending bibles to El Salvador and doing greco-roman chants...

I have degrees from MSU and WSU. I think WSU is the obvious choice for you, Esquire....

But if Notre Dame was your dream school, maybe roman catholic education is for you. I hope the nuns don't wrap your knuckles with a ruler if you have an original thought...
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Awfavre
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Username: Awfavre

Post Number: 26
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 69.3.206.177
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 5:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tndetroiter, also consider the clinical/internship/externship programs both schools offer when weighing your options. Getting practical experience is priceless, and many schools offer programs where you're doing real-world work.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 395
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 5:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mjb3: if you had gone to a Catholic school you would have known that the term is "rap your knuckles" not "wrap your knuckles."
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 185
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 6:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

rapping knuckles: Must be regional.

Our order School Sisters of Notre Dame (SSND) nuns (imported by Colonel Pabst from Bavaria around 1860 or so) in M'Waukey never used corporal punishment or even threatened it. There was a waiting list of dozens of kids for each class of 42 in my school.

If they stepped out of line, they would be sent packing. We have no drops or expulsions in my class (42, usually), other than those moving from my neighborhood for all eight years.
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Tndetroiter
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Username: Tndetroiter

Post Number: 19
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.158.164.229
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 6:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lets not let this turn into a running commentary about the Catholic faith or Monaghan's beliefs. This is about which school offers what.
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Everyman
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Username: Everyman

Post Number: 45
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 24.136.14.239
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 7:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

TNdetroiter.

As I mentioned earlier, it all depends on what you want to do. Do you want to work in the public or private sector? For a firm, in-house somewhere, or hang your own shingle?

Also, there's really no such thing as "International Law" per se. It is one of the most common misconceptions 0Ls have, and one I had when I applied to schools. Generally, you would be doing the same sort of work, just with an international actor involved. For example, if you did M&A/transactional work, one or more of the parties involved might hail from a foreign country, but you'd still be doing the same sort of work.

There is a small subset of international lawyers that do international public work (consider a place like the Hague) but even this work is more often than not just international flavours of crim or contracts work. However, these positions are hard to come by if you didn't attend YHSCCN or one of the other T14 schools.

Two sites that may be of interest to you are:
http://www.lawschooldiscussion .org/prelaw/ (will be unrealistically optimistic/supportive)
http://xoxohth.com/main.php?fo rum_id=2 (will be either spot on or unduly rude/pessimistic, depending on who answers you).

Doing a search for "international" should yield you some insight.
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Tndetroiter
Member
Username: Tndetroiter

Post Number: 21
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.158.164.229
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 7:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really don't know who I want to work for. I think I kinda want to do some work in the public arena, something with the state department or the like would be nice. On the flip side, I could see myself getting tired of government protocol pretty fast. I just dunno...
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Wmuchris
Member
Username: Wmuchris

Post Number: 247
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.51.137.10
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What about Wayne State .vs. Detroit Mercy? I've been accepted into both and would like some input from some of the people who have been a part of both.

What are the benifits of UDM?
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5599
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.42.168.211
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UDM is a fine law school. I know several attorneys who attended.
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Spaceman_spiff
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Username: Spaceman_spiff

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 24.56.252.143
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tndetroiter,
I do know some upperclassmen who have taken classes at U of M. I believe that the policy on transferring credits is fairly open. I believe that there is a limit on the number of credits you can transfer, but I haven't looked into it personally.

Just to weigh in on another issue, from my experience last year, Wayne seemed more appealing than U of D to me.
-Spiff
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Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3190
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 192.220.139.2
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 6:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pish posh, scholarships.
Pay your tuition and move on.
That Ave Maria scholarship is but a downpayment to Chirst the rest of your life, tithing to every priest in the World.

Going down to Wayne's bus stop campus is a world apart from Ave Maria. You'll thank us for the recommendation.

jjaba, Car Stop WSU Grad. school class of 1965.
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Dag
Member
Username: Dag

Post Number: 197
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.188.238.215
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 1:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sorry I did not participate in this discussion earlier. The average starting salary for Ave maria grads in 20k lower than the average WSU grad. The comparative exclusivity of the schools can not be afequately masured because Ave maria refuses to release all of the admission criteria.

These may not be significant factors for some, but they are for many, including myself.

Further, for what it's worth, each clas is begun with the Lord's prayer.
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Dag
Member
Username: Dag

Post Number: 198
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.188.238.215
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 1:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The initial bar passage rate for the two is very close as well 82% for Ave Maria and 80% for WSU.Once again, take it for what it's worth.
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Tndetroiter
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Username: Tndetroiter

Post Number: 24
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.158.164.229
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 1:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who knows of any good apartments near Wayne?
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Tndetroiter
Member
Username: Tndetroiter

Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.158.164.229
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 2:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Somebody once posted a link to a Midtown Historical Housing website or something or other w/apartments and houses for rent. Can anybody post this link?
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Belleislerunner
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Username: Belleislerunner

Post Number: 230
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 68.33.62.174
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://detroitmidtown.com/05/m idtown.php
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Mrsocks2002
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Username: Mrsocks2002

Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 69.212.213.160
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 5:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/ 02/catholic.town.ap/index.html

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