Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2006 » Vinton rat « Previous Next »
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 504
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.42.176.123
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's a huge inflatable rat stationed next to the Vinton Building restoration this morning. A handful of picketers were there, too. Didn't see what union they are with, although they did look quite cold.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1656
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL, Can someone get me a picture. I can't get down there today. I'd like it to go with the rest of my Vinton pictures.
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Tetsua
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Username: Tetsua

Post Number: 539
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.40.225.48
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How's the Vinton project going anyways? I've seen people walking all around that building lately.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1643
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God forbid that people don't want to pay the unions over bloated salaries when redeveloping a building.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5610
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Man it was freezing out. That costume didn't keep me nearly as warm as I thought it would.

Skulker's shift is in the afternoon, when it's warmer. Lucky bum.
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Rayraydetroit
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Username: Rayraydetroit

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 67.72.98.45
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I saw the name "Ferguson Demo" written on the picket signs. That's the Mayor's controversial buddy. I thought I saw Bobby Ferguson standing there on a cell phone. Demo is taking place for condos in the building; apparently already sold out.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1657
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

RayRayDetroit, Welcome to the forum. You may want to look at this thread to see how much we know about the Vinton.

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/62684/61276.html

A number of Forumers are investors in the Vinton Project.
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Rayraydetroit
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Username: Rayraydetroit

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 67.72.98.45
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey thanks Ndavies for the link and welcome. I should have been involved in this some time ago. It was the Pieroni/AAA bldg discussion that got me going. I've also known Lowell from a few years back.

I'm a broker involved downtown since early 80's. When I was with Farbman back then I had the Vinton (600 Woodward) listed for office space leasing. It was probably 50% occupied at the time. I really got into downtown RE when I moved into a loft in the Wright Kay Building in 1986.

Now I'm hooked on this dialog and cutting into my time for online newpapers and solitare.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5614
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my time for online newpapers and solitare.

Rayray, marry me.
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 995
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 136.1.1.33
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL. :-)
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L_b_patterson
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Username: L_b_patterson

Post Number: 287
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.229.203.64
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well at least the picketers are getting paid by the unions to pickett.
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Llyn
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Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1441
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.61.197.206
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ndavies, what is the current status? The building must be in demo... is new construction starting right after that? Facade improvement?

rayray, itsjeff is such a tease. At first he wanted to go dancing with me, but now he just treats me like the straight guy I am. I'm so crushed.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5342
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.156.92.83
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The rat was gone as of 20 minutes ago... :-(
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 27
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 67.38.87.62
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

His shift ended at 4:30, so it would make sense that at 4:13 he was on his way home. Must have had a buddy punch him out at the end of his shift.
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Eric_c
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Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 666
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.21.62.206
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 5:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course! Couldn't miss 4:20 now, could he?
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Everydayislikesunday
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Username: Everydayislikesunday

Post Number: 219
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 141.217.84.103
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I drove by, attempting to get some pictures around 4ish, and it was, indeed, gone.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8157
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.99.184
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 6:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This isn't the first union demonstration (if it was in fact that)or strike where I have seen the picketers leave before 4:00.

What happened to "solidarity"? I guess when it gets cold or your ass is on the line, anything goes; Even shanking your union "brother".
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 788
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.221.34.173
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh and so you're proud of hiring scab labor, huh Goat? I suppose scabs have more solidarity, eh?
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8158
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.97.104
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nope, but I sure as heck will hire whoever I need to at a price that is reasonable to BOTH parties.

Pffft, where did I ever say I would hire scab labour? Because a union says strike doesn't mean it's worth striking over now does it?

Spin away 'cause you are one damn good spin doctor.
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Username: Jdkeepsmiling

Post Number: 44
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 69.222.52.39
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To: Any of the members here who are renovating the Vinton Building. My name is James Davidson, and I have been lurking for many months and finally started posting in December. I am the manager of a building supply wholesaler (windows, roofing, kitchens, appliances, flooring). I have a deep mental commitment to the city, and am thrilled to see you taking it upon yourselves to put in sqweat equity to return this gem to its former glory. As a thank you, if you have not already done so, I would be willing to provide building materials at a VERY discounted rate. We only sell to contractors or builders, but if you are acting as your own general and will be installing much of this yourself, I am sure I could make a significant dent in the amount you pay for specific materials. My biggest area I might be able to help would be windows and kitchens. I know you may be far along in the process and might have already obtained these materials, but if not, I am sure i could be of great service. We offer a full line of kitchens and windows, and have a professional kitchen designer on staff who could field measure and sit with each person to fully develop thier vision for a kitchen. The rate I would be able to offer you would be slightly below the rate that contractors pay when they purchase material. Please let me know if you are interested. My email is Jdavidson1@gmail.com. Thanks and good luck.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 789
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.221.34.173
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Nope, but I sure as heck will hire whoever I need to at a price that is reasonable to BOTH parties." --Goat

I.e., you would hire scabs. What's the problem?
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Gumby
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Username: Gumby

Post Number: 910
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 204.39.225.113
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 3:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What does it matter if they hire non-union workers or circus midgets? What business is it of yours? This kind of mentality is why I hate unions. The "I am going to but my nose in where it doesn't belong because i have some skewed sense of entitlement" mentality. It is not like this is a city owned project. This is a bunch of private investors unsing their own money to better the city. As far as i am concerned the unions can go do some unmentionable things to themselves.

Can we please stop with the use of the word scab by the way. These are not people who crossed the picket line at GM to obtain a job. They are people with families to feed. They were there before the picket lines.
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Dday
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Username: Dday

Post Number: 814
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 65.209.165.170
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 9:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone even know why it was there? Can someone explain to me why you HAVE to hire union labor or risk the wrath (and supposed humiliation) of the infatable rat?

Knowing many of the people who are involved, I'm sure that they found the rat quite humorous (as did I when I read this thread).
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8159
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.96.227
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dday, because these are union towns and the union said so! That is the only logic that I can see coming from the other side in this debate.
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Atl_runner
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Username: Atl_runner

Post Number: 1832
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.98.116.13
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unions using strongarm tactics instead of competative rates and efficient work is what will eventually kill them off. Entitlement is a bitch.

In fact, I would go out of my way to not hire union for a job like this.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5624
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are you sure it just wasn't a reference to Histeric?
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 794
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.221.34.173
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If there's no sting to it and you don't care about unions, why does the word "scab" even have sting to you?

Shrug it off.

Why hire union labor for construction?

Why not always pay people the least amount you can, or even better, outsource their jobs to China?

If your boss says someone else will work cheaper than you will, then don't squawk, right? Walk away from your desk and get a job at Wal-Mart.
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 28
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 67.38.87.62
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Pffft-

Who does the repairs at your house?
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 722
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 4.229.69.50
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

fergusonrat
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8160
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.96.227
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pffft, answer this...if someone who is NOT union, gets paid fairly well and does a good job why should I hire union?

This has nothing to do with paying the least amount for work done. We all know that the cheapest isn't always the best. Just as the most expensive isn't always the best.

Mauser, thanks for the pic. It made me laugh. Gotta love union mentality.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 795
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.221.34.173
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Gets paid fairly well."

Yeah! I bet they do.

Why am I not surprised that a project being done by Forum members is nonunion?
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 67.38.87.62
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Pffft-

Who does the repairs on your house?

Union painters?
Union plumbers?
Union electricians?

Union laborers?
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8162
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.96.227
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pfft. Answer the question. I know many non-union workers who get paid very well for their job. I also know of many non-union workers who do a far better job than union workers do.

Not everyone can go out on their breaks and lunches to get stoned or drunk you know? But I'm sure it helps to keep their mind on track when they have to work in such grueling conditions. It also keeps the end product from having any defects too right?
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 796
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.221.34.173
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah, come on Goat. You're not elevating this argument enough to make it interesting for me. Surely you can do better than trotting out the old "union workers get drunk at lunchtime" saw.

I hope you're driving a Honda and buying your clothes at Wal-Mart, I wouldn't want to think of you being a hypocrite, or dealing with unions in any way.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 797
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.221.34.173
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thnk, or whatever your name is...

I guess in your neck of the woods you don't have union plumbers or electricians. Where's that, Howell? Novi? Next time you see a plumber van on the freeway, look for the union bug on the back or side. It's not that hard to find.

Ditto electrical. If you want to make sure the electrical co. you call to have someone work on your house is union, just call the IBEW, they'll tell you. You're showing your ignorance here.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8163
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.96.227
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, I don't shop at Sprawl-mart, don't drive a Honda (and if I did many are made in N. America anyway so I would still be helping create jobs on this continent).

I didn't say I wouldnt deal with unions. What I DID say was that why do I HAVE to deal with them (unions) if I can get a person to do the same job at a fair price for both parties with great results?

So I guess you can't answer the questions that we have all posted for you, but instead continue to spin...Good job Dr. Pffft.
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Thnk2mch
Member
Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 67.38.87.62
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Pffft-

What about your house?

The Vinton is private property, just like your house.
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Hardhat
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Username: Hardhat

Post Number: 100
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.228.2.235
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here we go again with the anti-union stuff.
Sooo... what's going on is that a group of union tradespeople are protesting the payment of substandard wages and benefits on a construction project. On their own time. All within the law. What's the problem?
They're making their own small effort at preserving the area's wage and benefit standards for construction workers, both union and nonunion.
It amazes me that with all the outsourcing of jobs to other countries - at ridiculously low rates of pay - these guys get hammered here for trying to stand up for themselves and their craft.
They're actually doing something about what they perceive is an injustice. This attitude that paying everybody low wages, whether it's building cars, building factories, or sweeping floors, is the wave of the future, and that we can't fight it, is ridiculous.
Paying low wages has a ripple effect throughout the economy. Just ask the people who build boats, furniture and yes, autos if they miss having workers around Southeast Michigan with disposable income.
Like it or not, folks, we're all in this together, and the "I've got mine" mentality is taking our whole country along the Wal-Mart/China model, where workers are expected to take low wages sitting down and with their mouths shut.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8165
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.96.227
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What about those who don't want to work for a union? Do they have substantial wages and benefits? How do you know that any of the workers involved are being paid substandard wages?
What is substandard wages? $5.00/hr? $30.00/hr?

I now of many places that the workers are paid better than unions with better benefits and more perks, and the reason is to keep the unions out. A few other companies I deal with pay all the above because they want the best workers possible.

So just because it isn't union doesn't make it slave labour. Just as not all unions suck the money from the owner of a company. But don't tell me I HAVE to use union workers, that's pure BS.
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 524
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 68.61.98.175
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Goat, that means those workers are benefiting from the union too. We're raising all the boats. Which is the point.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8166
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.96.227
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In some cases yes. But certainly not in all. Which brings me to my question (and others) again...Why do we HAVE to hire union workers?
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Hardhat
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Username: Hardhat

Post Number: 101
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.228.2.235
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Goat:
I don't see anyone telling you that you HAVE to hire union. Please do a little digging and remove that bug up your ass.

Here's a little pertinent info based on U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics:

Union members continue to earn substantially higher wages and receive superior benefits at work than nonunion workers, according to recently released data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS).
In fact, union wages are increasing faster than nonunion wages, giving union members and their families a better chance of maintaining a middle-class standard of living.
A typical union worker made $179 a week more in 2005 than a nonunion worker did, a gap that widened by $10 from the year before, according to the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Construction workers earn $343 a week more if they’re union.
Full-time union workers had a median weekly income of $801 in 2005, BLS says – 28.8 percent higher than the $622 median that nonunion workers earned.
The union advantage translates into more than $9,300 a year in extra pay for union households.
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 31
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 67.38.87.62
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If they are on the "A" list at the hall, and know the right people.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8167
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.96.227
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No bug up my ass. Take a look at your union buddy Pffft.
Does it mean that those who are investing in a private enterprise should be picketed because they didn't use union workers? Fuck that! That DOES put a bug up my ass! Anyone can do whatever they want with their OWN money, and shold not be picketed because of it. You should be able to hire whoever you want WITHOUT the intimidation.

BTW: I would support unions more if they didn't protect the "workers" who steal and fuck around on a daily basis. They should be removing those workers and working with the various companies to weed out the weaklings. Instead companies have to provide these douchebags with psychologists and AA meetings, DAA meetings, because to do anyting else they may have a wildcat strike. How fair is that?

It seems the unions want it both ways.
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Spartacus
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Username: Spartacus

Post Number: 97
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 209.114.251.65
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raising all boats? Absolutely not. The purpose of the Union is to cause a transfer of wealth from those not in the Union to those in the Union. The above market compensation that Union members get has to come from somewhere.

Goat-- I thought you were a union member, aren't you a teacher, or do I have the wrong guy.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6856
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, now a question since I think that HHs arguments info is off topic.

What is a fair price for a day of work, not how much someone makes. The additional costs will be pushed off on the consumer so some of us may not want to pay more than the market dictates for labor when the additional cost is passed on to us.

I am a proponent of every job possible staying in the US but that does not mean that every worker in the US is entitled to a pay greatly beyond what the market would dictate. I would love to make $1 MM a year but the market does not dictate that for my skill set.

There is a large grey area between minimum wage and union wages. Union wages are great for union employees but many of us (like the Vinton folks) do not feel the need to pay a wage greater than what the market dictates for the same work.

QWuality work deserves quality pay but "The union advantage translates into more than $9,300 a year in extra pay for union households." results in higher costs to consumers.

It is blackmail IMO. If the work is that much better and a deal for the price people would jump to hire union but that is not always the case. That is why developers assume homes will cost 20-30% more to build in Detroit. In one aspect unions being required in many projects by the city may result in developers looking elsewhere.

There is minimum wage, a fair wage and in some cases a bloated union wage. In some cases the union wage is the fair wage for the project and the qulaity but definitely not in all cases.

As private developers the Vinton people have every right in the world to hires contractors that meet their requirements. As a union the union members have a right to protest.

Pfft - You still haven't answered. If you do work on your personal residence do yo hire union or are those wages only fair for others to pay.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8169
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.96.227
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spartacus, not a teacher but I am working towards becoming one. Chances are I would have to join a union (I have been in unions in the past and I couldn't stand them), which I guess is a necessary evil. However, I will not go willingly with what a union says just because the union says it.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 9922
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.228
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whom do I contact at the union in regards to the rat? My dogs would love to play with that thing for a day.
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 526
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 68.61.98.175
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am so tired of the "unions protect bad workers" argument. The halls of my workplace are jammed with incompetent, helpless members of the management class who protect each other and keep each other employed. My union has to represent lazy incompetent workers, it's true. Everybody deserves representation, just like the legal system in this country. Everybody deserves a fair hearing on their job performance, I'll support that notion to the end. It makes me a little sick that my union rep spends a great deal of his time defending the bad performance of the scabs in my workplace - federal law dictates that if you work in an open shop, you get every one of the benefits of union membership without having to pay dues. So these scabs, hired off the street, their only qualification the willingness to benefit from the hard work of others, get to waste my dues money keeping their jobs. But that's the way it is, and we have a better, more fair workplace because of the work of the union.

Why anybody would belong to an organization and toe a line is beyond me. You don't give up your brain when you join a union (well, maybe you did, Goat) you just get the benefit of organizational support. You could use your membership as an opportunity to fix what you don't like about unions. It's far from a perfect system but better than most.
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 32
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 67.38.87.62
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about......

Work, get paid.

Don't work, get fired.
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Hardhat
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Username: Hardhat

Post Number: 102
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.228.2.235
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1,
There are Federal and Michgan laws in place to determine the "prevailing" wage for construction workers on state and federally funded projects. The federal law was put into place in the 1930s to prevent unscrupulous contractors from bringing in low-paid gangs of workers from out-of-state, willing to live in tents or shacks, and pay them a pittance in order to win contracts and pocket the huge profits. Local workers were getting screwed, big time.
The Vinton does not fall under this category of being federally or state funded, I don't think.
However, for those who don't think that local construction workers' wages and jobs aren't being underminded, look to the illegal $8 per hour Mexican drywallers and landscapers. They're everywhere.
Technically, construction pickets cannot legally protest the use of nonunion labor. They can legally protest the payment of substandard wages and benefits to those workers.
Finally, I don't get your "blackmail" argument. About the only actions construction unions take any more are these kinds of protests. There isn't much leverage to do anything else. Strikes are extremely rare these days.
Union tradespeople are one "brand" of construction worker, nonuinion workers are another. Some employers believe the union brand is more productive (unions spend millions every year on training) and worth the higher pay, other employers want to go with the lower-priced nonunion workers.
Why there is so much anger being spouted at unions for trying to legally uphold pay standards is beyond me.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6859
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HH - I agree 100% that unions were absolutely necessary when they were brought into existence. I also agree that the $8/hour pay is ridiculously low.

I agree with pay standards but I do not agree with what many unions believe the standard should be set.
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Detourdetroit
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Username: Detourdetroit

Post Number: 169
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my background and sentiment is more socialist than capitalist and conceptually unions make a great deal of sense to me. but i believe that unions have to change fundamentally because (at least locally) they have evolved into a mindset that hurts as much as it helps.

i always thought that at a basic level, unions are supposed to protect the workplace and ensure safe, fair environments for workers to conduct business. however, unions have come to be guardians of not only the workplace but also the job market - a position that inherently puts union leadership in positions where they become dealmakers and complicit in subverting market forces.

This obfiscation of the job market allows for a system that ensures corruption and complacency IMHO in the long run. Anecdotally, I was a member of a union in NYC that did offer benefits, but where I was essentially a second class citizen because my job title had been negotiated as part of a package the year before to ensure those with seniority did not lose benefits. All this to say I became a phantom full time employee - I had to work one hour less than regular staff (got less benefits) but had the same responsibilities. The second year of my employment, there was a huge scandal at our union where the president was indicted for having a Tribeca penthouse built for himself using dues and inflated trades payoffs...

but i digress...Our region's blind pro-union paternalism is KILLING our economic possibilities as a dynamic city. Losing jobs to China sucks (and talking about our own consumer behavior and trade parity is a whole other can of worms), but we are doing nothing to re-educate and evolve our workforce to address this inevitability. From an outsider's point of view, union leadership has no clue.

Local union leadership killed DARTA a couple of years ago - this proposal, while not perfect, is one of the few pieces of legislation that actually has the potential to move and PROGRESS our sorry state of affairs.
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 527
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 68.61.98.175
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I completely agree that unions have to change with the times to survive and to more efficiently help workers, which is their reason for being. I agree, like in the private sector, that the shit be swept away and the hardworking be rewarded.

I got tired of complaining and got myself elected to a office in my union. Whether I'm part of the problem or part of the solution - ask our members! But I'm trying to bring my best to the union who got me my health benefits and vacation pay and job security (such as it is).

Which has nothing to do with the Vinton picket. Don't we as Americans have the right to dmeonstrate if we think something is wrong? I think it's un-American to sit on the sidelines and bitch.
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Michigansheik
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Username: Michigansheik

Post Number: 94
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 63.65.97.67
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THey have no reason to picket, the owner can hire whomever he/she desires.
Most unions problems are internal, JOB BANK for one, thats what they should be working on. Paying people not to work raises what you have to charge for those actually doing labor.
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 529
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 68.61.98.175
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is wrong with job bank? It remains a great idea. Think of it as a "golden parachute" for the working class.
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1205
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.238.170.40
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a brother who is an electrician and IBEW member. The IBEW electricians are constantly getting training to expand upon their skills as well as keep current with technology and building materials/techniques. Their skills and know-how are outstanding. Rarely does his crew get cited by building inspectors.

I've seen work done by numerous licensed but non-union electricians and it was substandard work with lots of problems when it came to inspection time. The contractor usually called in a union crew to straighten things out and get it done right.

I've seen a lot of construction work done both residential and commercial. The work done by union crews has been done far better and finished at or very close to the deadline. I've only seen major problems happen with non-union crews.
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Nem
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Username: Nem

Post Number: 28
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 67.154.60.226
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The point is not whether the quality of the work is the equal or varying between unionized and non-unionized construction crews, thats a whole different debate all together. The point is that as PRIVATE owners, developers of PRIVATE property should be able to choose whatever construction crews they want so long as they follow city/county/state regulations and their work meets city code when finished. Unfortunately, protests like these are the kind of events that keep companies from bringing blue collar jobs into Michigan. The unions have the legal right to protest, but in my honest opinion I feel that in this particular case it may not be in their best interest in the long run.

(Message edited by nem on March 02, 2006)

(Message edited by nem on March 02, 2006)
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 532
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 68.61.98.175
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And union members have the right to picket them.
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Nem
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Username: Nem

Post Number: 29
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 67.154.60.226
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lol....I was editing my post as you posted that :-)
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Rusty
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Username: Rusty

Post Number: 383
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.194.127.158
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now we finally have ourselves an actual "benefit" that can and should be marketed to the general public. If you offer a superior service/product, then those who are looking for quality, will take notice. No different than buying a TV, car, house, etc. However, if you charge more than Joe Shmoe down the street but do not offer any additional value, then your ass should be left at home.

Labor is no different than any other market. Supply and demand play a major part in the process. Evolve and continue to add value or be gobbled up by others who can do the same thing at a cheaper price. Your affiliation with a certain group, union or association should play no part in the decision. Add value above and beyond your competition or be prepared to enter a price war with your competitors.

Thats the way the game is played in my job/industry, why shouldn't it be the same for yours?
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 33
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 67.38.87.62
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

QUOTE: " Don't we as Americans have the right to dmeonstrate if we think something is wrong? I think it's un-American to sit on the sidelines and bitch."

I think it is un-American to publicly shame a property owner for not hiring someone they chose not to for what ever reason they have.

Oldredfordette, I ask the same question to you:
Who does the repairs on your house?

Union painters?
Union plumbers?
Union electricians?
Union laborers?
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Michael
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Username: Michael

Post Number: 719
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.38.3.228
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Union or non-union. Who cares? When I'm doing a project, three things matter most; Quality, Cost and Time.

I have hired and worked for and with both union and non-union. When doing a job, you know the budget you have to work with, the timeframe in which to get it done and the quality that is require for given tasks. Given those three factors, you know from whom to solicit bids to get your job done, union or not doesn't matter, who can deliver does.
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Rusty
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Username: Rusty

Post Number: 384
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.194.127.158
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And next time you purchase a computer, car, house, etc. you better choose my company. Forget others that may offer a similar product at a lesser price. If you don't choose my company I'm coming to your house and placing a big inflatable cock in your driveway. Why, because I feel your decision to purchase services/labor/parts from ABC Company is wrong....and as an American its my right to protest.

sound silly?
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8171
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.71.58.236
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oldredfordette, cut the bullshit! I have been in unions as stated and not one of the fucking organizations did me any good. As a matter of fact, they were both detrimental to my workplaces and trying to change them did no good, as all they did was tell you no end of story.

I have been on both sides of the fence and I like the non-union better.

Maybe your brain has gone to mush because of the propaganda spewed forth by the union mentality.

BTW: My profession deals with both union and non-union shops and for what it's worth. The "union protects bad workers" does exist to the utmost extreme. Seen it, involved in it, and shake my head at it. If you feel that it doesn't exist knock yourself out, I know better!
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6864
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In defense of Redfordette - NOt all unions are run the same and have the same attitude towards change.

There are probably unions that are more a hinderance but there are probably some that are flexible and working to change and adapt to the current world.
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 533
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 68.61.98.175
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

T2M, yes yes and yes - when I have control of the hiring. MrORD, as an union electrician, does most of that job. But I live in a condo, and we must use whoever is paying off my condo association. Which is why I have a roof leak that is over 10 years old.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 206
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am not taking sides on this....but GOAT, if you plan to teach in Ontario you will owe your level of wages and benefits to the fact that teachers in the province are represented by successful unions.
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Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft

Post Number: 798
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 12.34.51.20
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm baffled by this "home construction" thing. Maybe I live in a well-built house or something but I've only had to use a plumber and an electrician. Both are union guys. So is the SBC guy who hooked up my phone service and oh -- when he found out I'm a union member he did even more work than needed. Sweet ...

Goat, your attitude is just sheer bitterness. Do the world a favor, if you have to teach, make sure it's a charter school where you have absolutely NO union benefits.

(Message edited by pffft on March 02, 2006)
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 35
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 67.38.87.62
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

QUOTE:
"I'm baffled by this "home construction" thing. Maybe I live in a well-built house or something but I've only had to use a plumber and an electrician. Both are union guys. So is the SBC guy who hooked up my phone service and oh -- when he found out I'm a union member he did even more work than needed. Sweet ... "

So you paid the union plumbers hall and the union electricians hall full wages, benifits and dues for the work performed, I am sure.

And the SBC guy did more work than he needed to because you are a union guy too? In others words he stole from his employer for his brother.

Nice.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8175
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.71.58.236
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I understand that but as I stated I don't care for unions very much.
Yes, I understand that they are needed but many unions are just bloated corp.s themselves. The Ontario Teachers Union are a bunch of scum who hold children hostage for monetary gain. If they don't like the hours they work then why become a teacher?

The teaching profession is a job that you do because you want to make a difference, you want children to learn and teach them how to think for themselves. It is a passion! It is not to have weekends off, summer holidays, Christmas breaks and what have you. Sadly, many people get into the profession for just that! But they sure as heck have a rude awakening when they do get a job in this field.

If I do get a teaching job in an area that has a union you can be sure I won't follow and walk in line like a good commie does. But I know if I step out of line there will be many that will want to take my union membership away and thus lose my teaching position. Again, unions want it BOTH ways.

So why again do those involved in the Vinton project HAVE to hire union workers? If they don't they get picketed? What about the guy who hires a window installer and he isn't in the construction union? Should the union go picket his house?
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 799
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 12.34.51.20
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Ontario teacher's union is "a bunch of scum"..."holding children hostage"...

"Bunch of scum"? Way to go, elevating the level of discourse here.

What right-wing website do you get these anti-union cliches from? Can you not form any original thoughts in your own head?
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 800
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 12.34.51.20
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As for "union halls" and plumbers and electricians, thnk, you're really pretty clueless here.

Many plumbing companies, and many electrical companies, employ union workers. You don't pay a union hall, you pay an hourly rate when the guy's in your house. You've probably had a union electrician in your house and you didn't even know it.

Duh??!!!!
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Everyman
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Username: Everyman

Post Number: 46
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 24.136.14.239
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lol, this whole union/non-union thing reminds me of the city/suburbs stuff, with people just blindly following 'their' side.

I don't see the benefit of unions to anyone other than those involved in the union. In fact, I'd venture to say that any benefits to other parties could more efficiently be reached by private cooperation without all the trappings and bureaucracy of the union.

If the market dictates a skiller electrician should get $10/hr., then so be it. Similarly, if the market dictates they should get $100/hr., so be it. Auto workers complain about losing jobs, but they didn't complain when they were getting paid (overpaid?) $100k+ with shitloads of overtime. The economy is cyclical. Instead of getting a new vehicle with the A-plan, financing a new house with boom wages, or getting a big screen, people should have saved (but that's off-topic).

Regardless, much like racism is indicative of weakness, I think lowbrow tactics like these are indicative of the relatively weak position of many unions in modern capitalist economies.
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 36
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 67.38.87.62
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pffft....
Actually, not at all clueless.

And I (as well as you )know plenty of union plumbers, union electricians, union carpenters and union plasterers(lathers) that would work side jobs any time for cash, with out batting an eye. The rules are different then.

Why does any one have to belong to your "club"
to be considered doing the right way.

Union - non union
Catholic - Baptist
Left handed - right handed
Bud - Miller

Who cares, feed your family, I will feed mine.
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Llyn
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Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1442
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.61.197.206
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree that some people choose sides and don't or won't think outside of them.

Being in the construction business I have no problem with people earning a decent living, and if unions help provide that, hey, fine by me. More power to them.

What drives me up the wall are union tactics. If I can't get a job done because of some non-sensical rule, or I'm told I have to spend additional money because the union wants specialized work that should rightfully belongs to my people, then I have a problem. The union business managers have the approach that "whatever is mine is mine and whatever is yours is mine". At one point I had a screaming match with a union business manager whose demands were actually forcing me to break the laws in the city of Detroit to get a job complete.

Do I have anything personal against the idea of unions and strikes? No. But do I like dealing with unions? No. If I could avoid ever having to deal with them again, I'd never use another union contractor. I can screw in my own damn light bulb without a union electrician's help, thank you very much.

(Message edited by llyn on March 02, 2006)
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 801
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 12.34.51.20
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dude,

These are not side jobs. There are residential electrical companies, that do work on your home and mine, that employ union electricians. Ditto plumbers.

Trust me on this.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8179
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.71.56.18
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pffft, if you could think with the brain that may be in your head you would realize that teachers in Ontario were going to strike if they didn't get an extra 15 MINUTES of prep time. That's right...15 MINUTES! The teachers union is scum. They make great wages, great benefits, great retirement packages, so what are they bitching about?
Heck I would teach for half of what a full salry teacher makes and still be happy with that pay.

(Message edited by GOAT on March 03, 2006)
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 175
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where are the Vinton investors? I'll admit I have not read this entire thread(nor do I know the names of all the investors), but I did not notice any of the owners here voicing their opinion. Nor did I notice any of the owners defending their hiring practices. So what's the deal? Are you paying the non-union guys a fair wage? (I'm not accusing, just wondering why no one is speaking up).

(Message edited by Johnnny5 on March 03, 2006)
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8181
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.71.56.18
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 6:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They probably don't want their name dragged in the mud (and wrongfully I might add) anymore than it already has. I wouldn't say anything either. From those involved I would hardly think they would pay the cheapest wage. Just more union BS.
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1002
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 136.1.1.33
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DetourDetroit said it best. I can see how people in unions would want to support other unions, but I don't think supporting unions helps society at large (which is all I care about). There are too many negative side effects of unions, not enough positive effects.

The best reaction to the rat is to ignore it. (Or maybe, take a few pics.)

On the bright side, year by year the city of Detroit is becoming less and less a bastion of unionism. It'd be interesting to chart the percentage of Detroit residents who were union members over the last 60 years, I'm sure it has plummeted. On the other hand, I imagine the percentage of union members in the suburbs has gone up somewhat over the same time period.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1658
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.212.213.210
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep, I have some pictures. I got a good laugh out of it. It's entertaining to watch the shit spin up from both sides of the argument.

The Vinton Board has no say in the personnel a subcontractor hires.

There will be plenty of union labor used throughout the project.

The Rat's funny.
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Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft

Post Number: 803
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 12.34.51.20
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice language, Goat.

Rude, crude and coarse. Your education has served you well.
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 176
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The Vinton Board has no say in the personnel a subcontractor hires. "

In other words they don't really know who is doing the work? If it was my building (which it is not) I sure as hell would like to know that the guys were properly trained, insured and licensed.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8182
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.71.56.18
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure has! And considering your posts and your attitude towards those who see things differently; I won't back down from anyone including you!

...watching a child seek attention.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1659
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.212.213.210
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

In other words they don't really know who is doing the work? If it was my building (which it is not) I sure as hell would like to know that the guys were properly trained, insured and licensed.




Laughing my ass off at the ignorance in this statement. Did you personally know the person who bolted the wheel on the last car you bought?

We hired companies not individuals. The companies we hired are responsible for this part of the equation. The companies are licensed and insured. They are on the line to make sure thier people are suitable for the job. That is the sole purpose these companies.
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 37
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.65.11.152
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Two Michigan Carpenters union leaders convicted of corruption.


http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2006602280436
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 178
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ignorance of the statement? If the contractor was using a union workforce you could be sure that they were trained and licensed to perform the work. Obviously you hired a "company" to handle the rehab of the building, but that still does not change the fact that they may be hiring people who are not licensed/insured/trained. If that's good enough for you then so be it.

And no I don't personally know the guy that tightened the lugs on my wheels, but I do know that he/she was properly trained, fairly paid and legal to work in the U.S.
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Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft

Post Number: 809
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 12.34.51.20
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 6:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For everybody ranting about how the UAW ruined the automakers with the Jobs Bank, here's a story about how it was actually GM's idea:



http://www.careerjournal.com/j obhunting/jobloss/20060306-mcc racken.html?cjcontent=mail

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