Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Flagstar Bank architecture Previous Next
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 3276
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.252.127.113
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 11:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a new Flagstar Bank on the east side of Woodward north of Maple. It is one of the nicest "new" buildings I have seen in a while. It is the perfect example of neo-Tudor architecture. I was under the impression that this style was all but dead. Does anyone know of the architect that did this project? It is excellent indeed. If you are a fan of architecture in the area, I suggest you take a look at it.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 792
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.221.34.173
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 11:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kind of funny that it took the place of the garish blue-roofed, International House of Pancakes eh?
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Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 497
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.40.89.238
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 8:01 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They built a nice one on Main and Lincoln in Royal Oak too.
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Kathleen
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Username: Kathleen

Post Number: 1179
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 140.244.107.151
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 1:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who's "they"? The same architectural firm? It's not the same bank chain as the one in Royal Oak at Main and Lincoln is a Citizens Bank. I think it looks nice from the outside, but I'm not crazy about the interior setup. I wonder how the folks that work there like it?
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3195
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 2:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba requests a picture since he doesn't know the suburbs. Merci!

jjaba, Westsider.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1226
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.144.83.151
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 2:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patrick, at least at face value, the same goes for the new bank on Kercheval at Cadieux where the old Marathon station used to sit in the city of Grosse Pointe. I'm pretty sure this is a flagstar as well.

While the design is aesthetically pleasing and hugs the sidewalk in traditional urban fashion, thus blending with the rest of the village, my compliments only go so far. It is all veneer, perhaps not even real stone, as far as I can tell. Its just decoration slapped in front of cinder blocks. Once again, they don't make ANYTHING like they used to. But, I guess by post-1945 standards, this is about as good as we can hope for.
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1476
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.250.205.35
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 2:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's still commercial architecture, so yeah Mackinaw, it is all veneer. But it looks pretty. But let's face facts, they are never going to build buildings quite like they used to.

The one in GP is a 5/3 bank I believe.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 1838
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.6.215
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 5:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's a new 5/3 bank on Kercheval "on the Hill" one block east of Fisher Rd. in Grosse Pte. Farms, where a gas station used to be. Are we talking about 2 different banks on Kercheval?

That 5/3 bank in the Farms is very nice with the arched mullioned windows, stonework and Mansard roof.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1301
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

While the design is aesthetically pleasing and hugs the sidewalk in traditional urban fashion, thus blending with the rest of the village, my compliments only go so far. It is all veneer, perhaps not even real stone, as far as I can tell. Its just decoration slapped in front of cinder blocks. Once again, they don't make ANYTHING like they used to. But, I guess by post-1945 standards, this is about as good as we can hope for.




Brick masonry has always been used for facade aesthetic. A modern cavity wall, however, is actually superior to a solid masonry wall.

One, the CMU wall ("cinder blocks") is a necessary structural backup system designed to resist lateral loads from wind and earthquakes. These walls can be designed for the applied forces, whereas solid masonry walls relied on their massing since they have very little tensile capacity.

Two, a cavity wall allows for better drainage. The cavity, flashing, and weep holes efficiently allow the water to drain out of the masonry units and away from the building. A solid masonry wall traps water in the stone and the mortar joints until the water leaks out--either out of or into the structure.

Three, since a cavity wall system is structurally more efficient than a solid masonry wall, it takes up less space, and requires less labor to erect.

Generally, modern methods of structural analysis produce more efficient designs than older structures, which were often overdesigned to overcompensate for the lack of more precise analytical tools or extensive calculations. Current quality control standards and advances in materials science help to produce better, more standard quality of materials as well, leading to a stronger, more predictable end product.

Now, if you want to talk about the EIFS exteriors that you find on your typical big box store, I'd be very happy to agree with you!
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56packman
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Username: 56packman

Post Number: 75
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 129.9.163.234
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DandinDC says "Generally, modern methods of structural analysis produce more efficient designs than older structures, which were often overdesigned to overcompensate for the lack of more precise analytical tools or extensive calculations. Current quality control standards and advances in materials science help to produce better, more standard quality of materials as well, leading to a stronger, more predictable end product." Yeah, yeah, I don't like standing in any building where the floor shakes when so much as a moving cart passes by
(I work in just such a marvel of "how much can we not use" construction).
I'll take a "teens, twenties, thirties building when Irishmen and steel and concrete was cheap" building any day. Bonus feature--you don't have to look at acres of vertical green glass that passes for architecture.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1305
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 6:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm going to guess that you work in a steel-framed building with a concrete slab-on-deck.

Vibrations aren't necessarily indicative of an unsafe design of poor construction techniques. What has happened that over time, materials have improved, analysis has improved, and structures can be built more efficiently with less material. Because of this, floor slabs and beams often have lower stiffnesses than they would require with weaker materials and older construction methods. In older structures, the (typically) overdesigned structural system required lots of mass that served to damp vibrations.

Vibration analysis, unfortunately, is not something that a lot of "old school" engineers consider in their designs. This is an area that has necessarily evolved fairly recently, and has garnered much more attention lately. The American Institute of Steel Construction has now published a Design Guide for engineers that provides criteria for limiting vibrations in structures.

Your building is safe--it's just that vibrations never crossed the mind of the engineer.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 277
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 7:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do they use finite element analysis for this?
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 1307
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 11:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not directly. Typically, controlling vibrations is based on determining the fundamental natural frequency of the structure. If you have a fairly regular floor system, you can do a simplified dynamic analysis. I have, however, for more complicated structures (a monumental staircase for a historic structure supported on a new steel space frame), used finite element software to determine the natural frequency of the structure.

Bet you never thought this thread would go in this direction!
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1228
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 6:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danindc seems to know what he's talking about.

One thing about these new buildings, although they are decent looking, is that I don't even think the veneer which is supposed to pass as stone cuts is actually stone. Do you know what these veneer materials actually are, Danindc?

Gotta agree with 56packman about the colored glass fad, especially prevalent in Detroit right now.

Gistok: there's a bank on the 'Hill' in Grosse Pointe Farms that was built last year over an old gas station, and there is a bank in the 'Village' in Grosse Pointe (which I was referring to at the corner of Cadieux) which is nearing completion, and also was built over a gas station. Both are better looking than your average modern building. I want to say (not completly sure) that both are products of the Monahan Company (I know there's another that they definitly built on Mack in GP Woods), which will be putting out condominiums on the shore of Lake St. Claire in Grosse Pointe Farms this year. Considering the house that had to be razed as a result of GP War Memorial real estate mismanagment to clear the way for these condos, these had better be masterpieces.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 3278
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.148.231.28
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 6:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They already razed the Lodge mansion in GP?
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1230
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 7:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She's a gonner.

It was just too expensive for those folks to move it to that plot in the 300s of Lakeland in GPC. They wanted to raze their 1950s build home and move the Lodge estate there, which would have been incredible.

There is a picture (very disturbing if you love old homes) of the house being razed in the current 48230 magazine, in a section about preservation of old mansions.
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56packman
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Username: 56packman

Post Number: 76
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 129.9.163.234
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 11:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dandin-DC, I understand that the building is structurally sound, and that the engineering is so precise so as to not spend one-tenth cent more on material than is necessary for maximum profits. Not since tha Kansas City Hilton walkway failure have we seen a prominent new building structurial failure. What I was alluding to is my perference for buildings built between the teens and the second world war, and that fact that they are wonderfully overbuilt. From what I have read of contemporary articles relating to the opening of many buildings of that era, the busnessmen involved with their creation did not think that in 30-50 years time their business (or industry or technology)would be history, and they (over)built their edifices to last the ages. Enter the post-war disposible everything era, the land rush to the suburbs, and the urban renewal demolition derby of the 50's-60's, and these buildings simply were not valued for their extreme strength or appearance. The construction (and demolition) industry thrives on this, and if one's meal ticket depends on this, you are going to have a definate opinion as to what stays and what goes.
One thing I deplore in modern buildings is a sense of "what we don't need to spend money on", most notibly ceilings. I have attended cooncerts in brand-spankin' new high school auditoria (which were all high dollar jobs, equipped to the nines) with "Sam's club" open truss "ceilings", ductwork and all. I have worked in old buildings where the most insignificant of cashiers booths have had a finished ceiling. Then there is finish wood work. New buildings either have none at all, or go roxy-rich and throw a lot in, but rarely. New McMansions costing $300,000+ have plastic siding, pressed-wood six panel doors, what little casing there is painted white like rental property. So much of what goes into them is factory created (e.g. "motel-6" plastic shower surrounds)rather than something hand-fashoned on the spot. Ahh, but that's a whole different argument. I beleive that the engineers of the teens-fourties were pretty smart fellows. Not much has changed in mechanical engineering--many of the laws and principals are centuries old. Metalurgy (sp?) has improved, yes. but so has ruthless profitibility, and the sense that "it dosen't need to be that good, it only has to last 25 years".
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 3280
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 65.222.10.3
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 12:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

text description

Is this the Lodge Mansion?
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Noggin
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Username: Noggin

Post Number: 52
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 71.227.102.104
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 12:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The real problem in the Pointes is the invasion of the banks. I have never heard anybody say we need more banks! I have heard a lot of people say they wish they had more places to shop.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 13
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 12:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Noggin,

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Businesses appear where there is a market for their goods or services.

Do you think the people running these huge mega-banks just decide to put a bank in X-location?

They do their homework and go where the demand is.

Everyone says that they need this and that business in their hood' but once it is there guess what? People don't go.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1238
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 12:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, no, Noggin is right to an extent. These banks are building on plots which should be prime for retail. This is not the bank's fault...they want classy buildings in prime spots where the market dictates, as you say, Brian. It is sort of the City's fault for not zoning or placing limitations beforehand. The only other bank in the Village of GPC, Charter One, is located behind the main commerical strip off a sidestreet, which I think is more appropriate.

Re: the Lodge mansion...I'm pretty sure that's it, Patrick. 1900 Queen Anne/Tudor. A little over 5000 sf.

Good points, Packman. I have a neighbor at home who was a builder and studied engineering, and he is quick to point out how modern builders cut corners. At the same time, he is so smart that he understands where the builders of his 1920s house cut corners as well. The overriding point is: building is more schotty today, and even in cases where it is solid, the materials used and craftsmanship employed do not compare to pre-WW II builds. Perhaps it's because homeowners were more patient back in the old days, or they were willing to put forth more inflation-adjusted dollars into their home. Now that would be an interesting study.
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Noggin
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Username: Noggin

Post Number: 55
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 71.227.102.104
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 11:13 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

321brian,

We are supposed to be in a free enterprise system. My point is that the banks are following the money. Unfortunately many of the retailers do not get it. There have been studies done by some of them and all they look at is the number of households instead of disposable income. These same studies have also stated because GP is bordered by the lake that the people can only come from 3 directions. Many of the locals do not want to go to Lakeside or Sommerset but have no choice. That is just the way it is. GP just does not fit in with the typical suburban retail setup so the national chains just do not get it.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1242
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 4:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah the pace of retail development in GP is about the same as Detroit, or slower. It's hard to say how much can be attributed to the mismanagment and haggling of government entities (see the Jacobson's Building on Kercheval for an example), and how much is due to the fact that retailers are so enamored with the newer suburbs on major roads like Telegraph or Woodward.

Some GP-ers are big on Lakeside and Somerset, but a more prevailing attitude is that it is best to keep in local, and many do keep their money in the 313 pretty well.

Another way to look at your characterization of the geography is to say that the only ways out of the GPs w/o going through Detroit or out on a boat are Mack or Jefferson north from GP Woods into Macomb county...the southern pointes are surrounded by the lake on the south and east, and Detroit north and west.
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Mplsryan
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Username: Mplsryan

Post Number: 133
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 24.26.164.215
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 5:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This thread desperately needs pictures of the banks for comparison and analysis.
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Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1244
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 6:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point...i'm stuck in ann arbor right now.
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 1846
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.105.119
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 7:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Part of the problem for retail in the Pointes is the lack of land available for retail. Maybe the numbers add up to tear down a gas station and replace it with a bank, but the numbers don't add up to build small retail space on the spot?

There is only one large parcel of land left in all the Pointes to build something prominent. That is the southeast corner of Mack & Moross (7 Mile) in Grosse Pte. Farms (based on Moross being East/West and Mack being North/South).

Ever since the Sears Outlet store and Hughes Hatcher store were torn down, the city has been sitting on that parcel of land, probably waiting for the Kroger and JoAnn Fabric leases to run out and tear them down as well.

They even bought up 8 residences along Moross and razed them for future development of this large parcel of land. This parcel must be at least 500 feet deep (along Moross), and maybe 400-600 feet wide (along Mack), depending on if they will also include the Wendy's and the Auto Repair shop (go all the way to Kirby Rd.), although it would be "L" shaped due to the Park behind JoAnn, Wendy's and the Auto Shop.

That piece of land is a gold mine of opportunity, as it sits kitty-corner to the St. John Medical Center and the St. John owned Pointe Plaza Shopping Center and the adjacent 5 story office buildings.


(Message edited by Gistok on March 07, 2006)
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Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1245
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 7:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point. I hope it does not turn into a strip mall with parking fronting Mack Ave.
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Rust
Member
Username: Rust

Post Number: 124
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 64.118.136.130
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 7:55 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grosse Pointe Farms owns the land Gistok mentions along with the land the Kroger sits on. It seems from conversations going on that there is a growing interest to make some final decision on what to do with this land. City officials have said they don't intend to renew the lease with Kroger when it comes due.

In that it is city owned land I don't think a low end development will get thru. The citizens who voted to passed a tax increase to buy this land will not want anything put on there that detracts from the community. The decision could be simply to tear down the Kroger and just keep the entire site as park land if the right development can't be done.

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