Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Affirmative action ban would hurt state's future Previous Next
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 18
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 2:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alright, I'm throwing it out there what do you kids think?

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060309/OPI NION02/603090484
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Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936

Post Number: 351
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 207.200.116.139
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 3:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the governor should use a lighter shade of lipstick.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3298
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 3:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This has been done to death, here. The only other new news I know is that the City of Lansing passed a symbolic resolution condemning Affirmative Action ban, I think that Detroit is the only other one to have done this. If those against this really hope to defeat the proposal they are really going to have to get on the ball.
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Zulu_warrior
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Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2610
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.251.27.41
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Governor is right. But people dont see it.

Wait till the tipping point is reached in the state's population loss. Reduction of national clout, no middle class to work technical jobs, little state gdp. We will be the Mississippi of the North. 0oops were already that.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 26
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michigans problem is that the middle class isn't working tech jobs. They are working U.A.W jobs. Which are disappearing rapidly.

U.A.W. guy does not want to go to school and learn a new skill. He would rather sit around, bitch and wait until he can find another job that requires no education.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 27
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michigans problem is that the middle class isn't working tech jobs. They are working U.A.W jobs. Which are disappearing rapidly.

U.A.W. guy does not want to go to school and learn a new skill. He would rather sit around, bitch and wait until he can find another job that requires no education.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8221
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.99.72
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What about all the IT guys that I know who have lost jobs to India? They have been well educated and now don't have schitt.
Along with assembly workers, middle management is getting their asses handed to them too.
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Belleislerunner
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Username: Belleislerunner

Post Number: 232
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 198.204.133.208
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Roll with the changes or get left behind. To mope. Simple as a dimple.
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2552
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And everything is all fair to everyone huh BelleIsle....

smdh
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1664
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.106
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually Goat, a recent study showed even with the exporting of IT Jobs to China and India, Tech jobs are still one of the highest growth industries in the country.

While certain specific feilds are being outsourced, many other areas are still showing substantial growth.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/2 3/news/economy/jobs_it_offshor ing/index.htm?cnn=yes

Also Manufacturing Jobs are only dissapearing from Michigan not the country as a whole. So it's local policies/businesses that are killing jobs.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/0 9/news/economy/jobs_bluecollar /index.htm?cnn=yes
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Belleislerunner
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Username: Belleislerunner

Post Number: 233
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 198.204.133.208
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"If life were fair, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead."
--Johnny Carson
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 8222
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.53.99.72
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What are these so-called highly skilled jobs? Yes, the "Big 3" have been downsizing and yes the Japanese plants have come into play but what about all of the feeder plants? I think there is a bit of spinning going on. How can we lose this many plants but see an overall increase? That doesn't make much sense.

Thanks for the links BTW.
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2553
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 5:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Becuase reality never really hits until you become a part of it GOAT yanno?
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River_rat
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Username: River_rat

Post Number: 46
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.166.44.44
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 6:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Granholm's article trots out every hot button, every catch phrase, and every PC mantra that exists. Another politician pandering to what she sees as her political base.

I firmly oppose the initiative to ban Affirmative Action; let' s defeat it. But Madam Governor, stop the platitudes and go out and get jobs for your constituents.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3300
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 6:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She's a politician, but one of the better ones, although that doesn't say much about the profession.

I'm glad this has turned into a racially-charged, name-calling shouting fest...yet.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3253
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 192.220.139.10
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 6:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now the liberals can boycott Michigan AND South Dakota.

Remember when Phoenix lost the Super Bowl because of the ML King Holiday? Remember when Denver lost convetions over gay rights?

jjaba.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 253
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 7:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And both Denver and Phoenix have booming economies. Apparently, they are doing quite OK for themselves, even without some relatively insignificant convention-type events.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3303
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 9:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, because economic success is the only way (or even the best) to gauge the success of a city. Detroit was once an economic powerhouse, too...with a helluva lot of social unrest bubbling under the surface that brought it down in one fell swoop. These other cities would do good to learn from Detroit. I look at a city like Vegas, for instance, and IMO, it is just a few decades away from a social stroke, and this goes for quite a few of the so called "successful" sprawling messes out there. BTW, Arizona is a sickeningly racist state. The only difference is that the minority populations are not as vocal as they would be in a place like Michigan.

(Message edited by lmichigan on March 09, 2006)
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 363
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 9:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Still, I think Phoenix would have preferred to have also had that Super Bowl. Bigotry is costly.
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Downtowntom
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Username: Downtowntom

Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 9:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

C'mon folks, this statement by our great Governor is nothing more than a trial balloon being floated up to check the political winds for the upcoming elections in nov. They dont have a chiseled in stone strategy yet so they are merely checking for public opinions on issues to see which way they will have to bend to get the most political leverage. Believe me, this issue will swing back and forth, pro and con, many times in the next few months.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 255
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 9:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Phoenix is close to number 1 in economic development. Denver and three other CO municipalities are in the top 20 or so in high tech. However, CO's tourism is hurting when some of the recent past winters were warm and short.

They wouldn't gain that much with the Stuper Bowl. It meant more for Detroit, yet its own afterglow is almost extinguished. It probably didn't help all downtown establishments for that week when their regular customers had lousy access and didn't shop or otherwise do business there. And as with all SBs, a month later and who even remembers which two teams were playing?
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 179
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 9:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Personally I don't see Granholm's link between this ballot initiative and the overall future of our economy; just more political ass kissing for votes. IMO Affirmative action is state supported racism and I will happily check "Yes" this November.
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Jiminnm
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Username: Jiminnm

Post Number: 326
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 68.35.85.184
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 10:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jimaz, Phoenix will get the Super Bowl as soon as the new Cardinals' stadium is finished. That seems to be the determinant these days. Bigotry has nothing to do with it.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 367
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 10:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernoisyard, I'm sorry, maybe it's just me. I doubt I will ever be able to understand how bigotry could possibly ever be profitable. I mean, profitable business is one thing and, well, businesses subsidizing unprofitable prejudice is quite another. It's like a tax paid to an ideology.

Peace and prosperity to you, sincerely.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 368
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 10:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jiminnm, we'll have to wait and see. Personally, I don't care. I'll be in Michigan! Weeeeeeeeeee!
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 236
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.214.179.36
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 11:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grandstand is continuing to do what she does best....grandstand.
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Zulu_warrior
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Username: Zulu_warrior

Post Number: 2613
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 11:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wait till America starts outsourcing Urban Planning jobs.

Then the outcry will be tremendous.....
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 381
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.221.66.98
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 4:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I want affirmative action in the city of Detroit. Perhaps a quota of jobs required to go the Irish to start with....
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2557
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 4:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Johnny can i reccomend this for dinner tonight?
F:
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Michiganjfrog
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Username: Michiganjfrog

Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 198.212.237.23
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 4:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Affirmative action ban would hurt state's future



Why? Getting rid of racist policies (i.e. affirmative action, which judges people by their skin color) is bad? Are you worried that racists would avoid our state? I'm not...they can stay away for all I care...
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2559
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder when will those that call Affirmative Action a racist initiative figure out that not only does it help Blacks gain a semi level playing field(theoretically), but other Minorities as well? IN fact...WHITE WOMEN are the biggest winners when it comes to Affirmative Action since they are a bigger minority in this country than anyone else! So everytime I hear "skin color" and "racist policies" I wonder if its merely just think that they really don't like one or two particular groups in general that it helps.

Learn what it's really about and who it helps and THEN come in and make a rational argument for why you are against it. Any time the issue of Affirmative Action comes about a lot of white folks (not all) make it a black/white thing, when African Americans are not the only ones that benefit from it.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 36
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think I know of only one group that it does not help.

White college educated men like me.

Rock on A.A.!!!!
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2560
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

no 321 cause u got MWP to help you out...

MWP = Male White Priviledge

...you know...that thing that so many of you don't want to acknowledge exists?
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2165
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zulu' "Wait till America starts outsourcing Urban Planning jobs. ..." LOL!
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 38
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit_stylin,

That bus passed me by.

Daddy and his friends didn't find me my job. I did. Alone.

Get off your crutches and try again.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6966
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Didn't you know that everything is fair and on an equal playing field D_S.

http://detroitnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060310/O PINION03/603100362&SearchID=73 238059406365

Wall that divided this neighborhood sends new message


quote:

A white developer built the 1/2 -mile long concrete wall in the early 1940s to separate a black community from the middle-income white housing project the developer wanted to build to the west.

Appraisers considered the black community a high-risk slum likely to default on federal-backed mortgages. But the white developer had no trouble getting a government-backed loan after the wall made it clear his project wouldn't be racially mixed.




Its always been fair and the AA community has had more than ample time to make up for the inequalities of the last 400 years.

Brian - I understand your POV but you have to look at something like this on an overall level, not an individual personal one.

I am a white, college educated male that grew up with little money. I made it through college working tons of hours and taking out a ton of student loans. I have earned where I am but it by no means makes everything equal in every situation.

There is still a lot of discrimination in housing, the workplace, college entrance (that whole legacy pont system seems to go by untouched), predatory lending, etc.

But it is always easier to claim people are lazy than to admit the horrible past of our country.
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 2562
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.202.227.12
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry baby boy but this EX SOLDIER clawed and scraped his way to everything that he has ever had, up to and INCLUDING my COLLEGE DEGREE (which would have probably otherwise been worthless in the world controlled by the MAJORITY w/o Affirmative Action).

<<<never used crutches but merely spent a lifetime of tossing oppressive weights off my back...

Sorry you missed the bus...you got a long, hard walk ahead of you...

Hope you got comfortable shoes...
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 39
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hold up. I didn't call anyone lazy. I just hate the implication that because I'm white I had things handed to me.

I work in Real Estate and if Channel 4 does some undercover story on me it won't air because I don't descriminate. The only color I see at work is green!

I do have good shoes stylin' but why do you say I have a long, hard walk ahead of me? I'm good.

M.W.P. isn't everywhere!
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6969
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree that MWP isn't everywhere and on the surface it seems very unfair to people like us. That is why situations like this require people to look at things on a larger context than on the individual level.

As for not discrimating. I did not mean to imply that you were part of the problem in that regard. With any profession the vast majority are probably working to make money but there are definitely some that 'steer' people to where they should go.

The recent report on C-21 Town and Country shows how real and active the steering still is. The construction of the 5/3 (I think) banks in the city show how alive and well predatory lending is.
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Detroiternthemist
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Username: Detroiternthemist

Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 64.118.149.50
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 5:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

321brian,

you're in corp american hiring for a job. You have 2 resumes exactly the same from education to skills and accomplishment. Only differnce are the names resume 1 from Tom Luptowski and resume 2 is from Tyrone Jackson. Which will you hire?
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 40
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 6:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That last investigation on Channel 4 made me cringe. I just wanted that guy to shut up. I wish they would play footage of a good agent once and awhile.

Yes, steering does exist. Can't deny it, but I think as some of the older agents get out of the business things will improve. They are from a different time where thoughts like that were common place. Hate to make excuse but..old dogs/new tricks?

From day 1 in R.E. school DO NOT DISCRIMINATE was drilled in to us. So obvious but yet necessary.

I don't know much about 5/3. What do they do as far as predatory lending?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 6970
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 6:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed that it is probably older realtors and a few that want to keep a certain clientele. I also believe that it is a very small amount of lenders.

5/3 was required to build branches in cities that have high AA populations due to charging higher interest rates to black borrowerers when all else was equal.

I don't have the whole story but I can check on it.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 41
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 6:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tyrone Jackson.

Why?

1. because he will get the people who want me to hire more minorities off my back.
2. i'm prejudice against polish people.

But seriously, I would have to interview them both and see what they had to say.

Way back when, a teacher of mine was trying to get us to understand the struggles of women in college in her day. She said that with all things equal she would hire the woman because she had to go through more to get where she is.

I would assume the same with Tyrone if I was just going on resumes.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 42
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.62.19.247
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 6:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1,

Please find that link.
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Michiganjfrog
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Username: Michiganjfrog

Post Number: 3
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 198.212.237.23
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 6:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

That bus passed me by.

Daddy and his friends didn't find me my job. I did. Alone.



Same here. In fact, I am in debt up to the wazoo in student loans. I didn't qualify for minority scholarships :-(.
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 180
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 9:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit_sylin,

O.K I'll agree with you AA is not only a racist policy, but a sexist one as well. "Two wrongs don't make a right" has never seemed more appropriate. IMHO AA cheapens the accomplishments or those that benefit from it; and it unfairly punishes the truly deserving. As for "making this a black/white thing"; after rereading all the posts it appears that you were the one singling out any particular race. Perhaps you should dust off that mirror before making accusations.

Getting back to the thread: If anyone finds any evidence that AA has economic benefits for Michigan go ahead and post away. I'd love to see them. Until then I'm sticking with my conclusion that Jenny's argument is unrelated nonsense, and is purely for political gain.

(Message edited by Johnnny5 on March 10, 2006)
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2046
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 11:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The guv is just proving herself to be ditzier and ditzier every day.

For a woman who thought that quoting Dr. King would help make her point, she only ends up shooting herself in the foot (again). If only she had actually taken the time to go and read a few line down, she may have found this:


quote:

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.




Just counting down those days until the MCRI is passed and the racists like the guv as well as the other who oppose it will have to deal with the above "dream" first hand!

Wonder what they'll do then to stir up some trouble?
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Warriorfan
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Username: Warriorfan

Post Number: 275
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.43.81.191
Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 12:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why not SES-based affirmative action? There are black doctors and lawyers and other upper-class African-Americans living in the burbs and send their kids to private schools, don't tell me that those kids need an extra 20 points on their UofM admissions applications because of their skin color. Shouldn't the goal be to extend educational and employment opportunities to the poor and disadvantaged, regardless of race? How does preferential treatment to an upper-middle class black kid from the burbs and ignoring that dirt poor white kid from the trailer park help bring about equality?
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English
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Username: English

Post Number: 497
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.144.82.207
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 1:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But the children of black doctors and lawyers don't do as well on tests and on their report cards as the children of white doctors and lawyers. Research shows that. My personal experience teaching upper middle class kids in A2 shows that.

In fact, the research shows that aggregately, black kids from the upper middle class earn around the same grades and even LOWER test scores than white working class kids!

This is a problem that goes beyond SES.

There are only three possible explanations: 1) genetics, 2) culture, and 3) society.

#1 is the basis of the work of Hernstein and Murray, Taylor, and Sailor, who are largely denounced by US academia as white supremacists. I look at it differently: let's look at the scientific evidence with a clear eye, and if it says that people of African descent are academically inferior, then so be it.

However, I'm happy to note that their theories have been disproven in three ways. First, there is the example of African and Caribbean immigrants, who, SES being equal, perform on par with native-born whites (although they do less well than NE Asians). Second, there is the evolutionary model--one of my profs this term is a physicist who later began researching language and learning, and his conclusion is that if blacks are genetically inferior, it disproves the evolution of human cognition. Jared Diamond and others have also pointed out that IQ tests do not measure the extent of human knowledge. Third, recent advances in DNA testing prove that race is largely a societal and cultural construct, not a biological one... there are Americans who "look black" but have very few or no traceable sub-Saharan African ancestry, and there are Americans who "look white" and have significant African genetic ancestry.

So we may feel free to debate (ad nauseam) the other two explanations for the achievement gap: culture vs. society. Is it black folks' fault that their kids don't do as well in school? Is it the fault of society? Does the explanation lie somewhere in between?

Finally (and this is the most important question): is it in our society's best interests to close racial gaps in economics, social status, educational attainment, etc.? Brown ordered us to do this in schooling "with all deliberate speed"... we're 52 years and counting...
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Shave
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Username: Shave

Post Number: 1091
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 3:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem with Affirmative Action as it relates to Black Americans is that it was not designed to reach the least among us. Affirmative Action from a Black perspective was a means to protect the social and financial interest of the Black elite. It was the Black elite that staved off reparations for newly freed slaves. This small, Black social hierarchy has created an imbalance of wealth amongst Black Americans in an effort to protect their own financial, social, and political interests. Yes, White women have benefited handsomely from Affirmative Action. So, too, have the Black Americans that the bill was designed to help--the Black elite. Remember, we are only as strong as our weakest link. Affirmative Actions is not reaching the most socially afflicted amongst us--the poor, working poor, or the lower middle-class. For this reason alone, it is a flawed, elitist policy. Racism plays a very, very minute role in this debate.
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2422
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.51
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 3:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So Shave, you recommend a combination of BOTH race-based and class-based affirmative action? I'm all for it. However, I find class-based affirmative action very problematic, since like you said, majority of blacks attending the ELITE schools in the country come from middle- and upper-middle class backgrounds.
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Shave
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Username: Shave

Post Number: 1092
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 6:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not recommending anything. Rather, I am putting forth the argument that Affirmative Action is more class-based than race-based (nothing more). The Black elite class supported and pushed for Affirmative Action because it suited their needs, wants, and desires. Once again, the lower echelons of Black society has suffered at the hands of the Black elite. Once we as Black people recognize the true enemy, then perhaps "we as a people" can move forward and begin to openly compete as a race. As Blacks, we are constantly pointing and blaming outside of our own domain. For once, we need to take off our blinders and realize that the most elite amongst us has created more inequality between the races than others. Take a look at the political structure in Detroit for a very good example of the elite Blacks pimping the poor Blacks. It is just like a lot of African nations that are seemingly impoverished. The aid comes in from various sources. However, the individuals at the top grab their piece of the pie first. If there are any scraps left over, they may decides to spread them amongst the individuals that the aid was intended for in the first place. Haiti comes to mind when I think about this scenario as well. The elite are definitely looking out for themselves as well as those closest to them. Yet, whenever their power structure is threatened, they seek support from the little man by crying out racism. It is ironic that Mayor Kilpatrick is not playing the race card since his re-election. All is well in "Kwame-ville" (poor Black Detroiter be damned!!!). Alas, you can't blame him. He is being true to form--a Black elite with an elitist mind-set.
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Detroiternthemist
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Username: Detroiternthemist

Post Number: 22
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 68.252.71.123
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 7:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Deep Shave.......but what does that have to do with AA.
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Shave
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Username: Shave

Post Number: 1093
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It has everything to do with Affirmative Action. The class-based issues surrounding Affirmative Action have been glossed over and tossed to the side for the more passionate race-based arguments. It was brought up on this thread that White women have benefited more from Affirmative Action than any other minority group. However, in most debates surrounding Affirmative Action, I have yet to witness anyone actually bring up intra-racial, class-based arguments. If any of us are going to have a true in-depth discussion regarding Affirmative Action, then we must entertain all sides of the argument. Oftentimes when discussing Affirmative Action, it instantly devolves into a Black-White issue when, in essence, there are far-reaching implications. The Black elite is comfortable that we only view Affirmative Action from a racial perspective. In essence, by not exploring this class-based discrimination, we leave self-serving, self-interested Black Americans to prosper at the expense of Blacks that may need the extra incentive to compete in higher education as well as the work place (all the while blindly turning our heads in the direction of other minority groups). Its almost as if we are letting the real crooks off the hook.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 399
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 68.2.191.57
Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I almost posted this earlier but relented after noticing some suspicious editing on the webpage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A firmative_action .

There's some interesting stuff there regarding Martin Luther King Jr.'s unclear position on socioeconomic vs. race-based affirmative action.

FWIW.

Interesting thread.
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 383
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.221.66.98
Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 9:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So are we saying that those that would benefit from affirmative action really are inacapable of making it on their own against perhaps superior races or sexes or nationalities?

That standing toe to toe, they just don't cut it?

That given decades and decades of this policy, they still really aren't up to the task?

Who are these inferior people?

Help me out?

If its the Irish, I say screw it, we'll do it on our own....at the least, we will try to stop hurting the state like the title of this blurb indicates we must be doing.
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2429
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.51
Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 10:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shave, you should check out Cathy Cohen's The Boundaries of Blackness. She talks about the intra-racism within the black community. She calls it secondary marginalization.

Yale professor Cohen combines rigorous research and fresh sociological insights to build her argument that a black political agenda based solely on race promotes exclusionary practices. Cohen tracked responses to AIDS by black civic and church leaders and media in New York City (where, since 1990, AIDS has infected more blacks than any other racial or ethnic group), finding that they have espoused an understanding of racial identity that privileges middle-class, heterosexual males, while using code words "to designate who was expendable." Starting at the beginning of the AIDS crisis, she compares coverage by network television news and the New York Times with that of black newspapers and magazines. Cohen attributes the failure of black media to focus on AIDS at the beginning of the epidemic to homophobia, classism and sexism, resulting in the extreme stigmatization of the most disempowered members of black communities. She finds that in the 1980s, the black political response to AIDS came largely from black lesbians and gays. In recent years, women and children of color have come to be most at risk, while the black media focuses on alternative treatments and new heterosexual dating patterns in response to AIDS. Although Cohen's analysis is encumbered by academic jargon, it is astute and eye-opening.
Copyright 1999 Reed Business Information, Inc.
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Shave
Member
Username: Shave

Post Number: 1097
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 10:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Ltorivia. I will be sure to study this professor's writings.

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