  Dsmith Member Username: Dsmith Post Number: 95 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 68.248.11.177 |
I'm generally in favor of user-fee funding for just about all goverment functions. Toll roads are going to be a tough sell but I think it is a great idea. -------------------- There are toll roads in Illinois and Indiana, but there are none in Michigan. Now, state lawmakers wants to establish one, and the likely target is Interstate 75. Republican Representative Shelly Taub of Okland County says the tolls are needed to help pay highway maintenance costs. Instead of toll booths, Taub's proposal calls for a hi-tech card sold by the state and attached to cars that could be "read" by cameras. The camera would record the card, and bill for tolls would be sent to the car's owners. Without the card, the camera would snap a picture of the car's license plate, and the owner would be fined. The legislation was introduced Wednesday. http://www.wilx.com/news/headl ines/2429581.html | ||
Spidergirl Member Username: Spidergirl Post Number: 164 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.61.200.101 |
I'd be more than happy to pay a toll on Michigan roads...as long as the money goes to the upkeep of Michigan roads. Every time I drive on the practicaly pothole-free Ohio freeways I wish we had toll roads. | ||
Rosedaleken Member Username: Rosedaleken Post Number: 138 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 68.43.122.151 |
Tolls work better in Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois because they help to spread the upkeep costs of the roads over cross-country motorists who don't pay state taxes. Illinois is a particularly good example since most of the tollways around Chicago don't actually enter the city, sparing local traffic somewhat. Since Michigan doesn't have as much traffic from out of state residents as some other states, tolls would unfairly penalize residents. Maybe if MI residents had 1/2 price tolls, it might be worth considering. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 361 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
Crimony, another way for government to track citizens. Interesting though that it's a card read by camera rather than an RFID. I wonder how they intend to deter counterfeits? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3302 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I'm not so much in favor of this simply because I think there are more practical ways to spend the money we already have such as investing in new road technologies (i.e. new surfaces that hold up to the weather much better, less destructive ice melting chemicals...). I think the big problem is not so much that the roads are overused, but we keep patching them up with with sub-standard materials. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1258 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
I share Dsmith's frame of mind. I'm suprised a republican lawmaker from OC proposed this...but okay. This is where I think we need a toll road the most, because that freeway is abused. By abused, I mean that too many people use it for short trips. Whether it is our impatience or our car-culture or the fact that people aren't good with simple directions, metro Detroiters just don't do surface streets if we can avoid it. This leads to wear and tear on the highways and heavier traffic flow which leads to the demand for constant lane-adding. A toll road could help us alot. | ||
Treble484 Member Username: Treble484 Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 69.14.112.53 |
I worked for 11 years as a Motor Carrier Enforcement Officer and if Michigan outlawed the 11 axle steel haulers and gravel trains like other states, we wouldn't have so bad of roads. Those mega size 160,000 lb. trucks destroy our roads. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 355 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
So how will I get to Traverse City from Detroit with my Nevada license plate? Another moronic idea from Lansing, for cripes sake. And those toll roads in Indiana and Illinois are a real pain in the backside. Stick toll roads where the sun don't shine. And what, Rosedaleken, do outstate tourists use for gas in Michigan??? Every time I gas up it seems I'm paying the Michigan tax, right? Or are you saying I should be exempt? Every McDonald's quarter pounder I buy in Michigan is subject to sales tax. To say outstaters don't pay taxes to Michigan was not well thought out. | ||
Naturalsister Member Username: Naturalsister Post Number: 495 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.42.169.65 |
Do any of you think that the raggedy roads have helped boost the auto industry's sales a bit in the region? Therefore is it possible that there could be several reasons why the roads around here are sooooo sub-standard? I've wondered about this for some time. Why fix the roads and make there less need for new auto purchases? later - naturalsister | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Do you all know that Indiana's governor, Mitch 'Farm Boy' Daniels, plans to sell the Indiana Toll Road? It's most likely the biggest asset in the state, besides the Port of Indiana at Burns Harbor, and he wants to sell it to a foreign company. I live in a county that the Indiana Toll Road passes through and I think it is ridiculous. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3258 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Michigan had the premier roads in the nation since the invention of the paved road on Woodward Avenue. We were the envy of all. Sorry, but you can't designate an Interstate Freeway a toll road after the fact. The Ohio, Pennsy, and Indiana Pikes were tolls before the Interstates, so was The NJ Pike. To help them out, the US Govt. made them interstates so they can get Federal Highway money. So have no worries, I-75 will never be a tollroad. If Michigan wants to build anew, now that's their business. Just don't call it an Interstate. Ray1936 is absolutely right. Non-residents pay up the ass for the services they use. Bed taxes in hotels, sales tax, user fees for parks, monuments, and attractions. Local options tax. Boating permits, dog tags, property taxes on vacation homes. Michigan would charge a tax to swim in a Great Lakes if they could, and in some places they do. The onliest free swim is Belle Isle which Lowell says is a fantastic spot in the Detroit River. jjaba, tells it like it tis. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1333 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.32.126.240 |
Nonresidents don't pay shit. Take this from someone who lives where 70% of the drivers don't pay taxes to use "in-state" roads. Sales tax doesn't even nick the costs of maintaining roads. Wait and see. Virginia is about to make parts of I-95 and the Beltway a toll road, simply because gas taxes don't cover it all. So, would you rather subsidize the tourists, or have decent roads? | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2403 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.51 |
I am against toll roads because Michigan does not receive out-of-state traffic that Illinois, Ohio, Indiana, and Pennsylvania receive on a daily basis. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3306 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
That's only have true. Detroit recieves tons of national and international traffic, but that is only a small part of the state, physically. Regardless, really, most have shown more reaons than one why toll roads wouldn't work well in Michigan. I really do think Michigan would go for a gas tax before they'd ever go for toll roads, that's how hard of a sell it will be. It's not the first time someone has proposed this idea, and it won't be the last. It's always good to lay all of one's options on the table, though, and bring up good debate. Michigan's roads are a mess, and conventional wisdom either hasn't fixed them, or our politicians and citizenry aren't adhering to conventional wisdom, which wouldn't be unlikely. lol | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2405 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.51 |
And we have the 2nd/3rd best public university in the nation. Michiganders certainly do not utilize what hidden gem they have. ::Shakes my head:: | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3308 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Just like our economy, are graduates are being "out-sourced" at a similar rate. Forget just Michigan, Michigan has a wealth of great, public and private universities, which makes our dire situation just that much more painful to observe. It's like we've been having a "going out of business sale" for a few decades, now. Mostly off subject, I know, but a point. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 515 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 194.138.39.53 |
Yea, what about the 1 in 4 Ontario plates I see on I-75 everyday? While, this would be an added cost to me, I'm all for it! Maybe this will even help to push forward for better regional mass transit. | ||
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 453 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 12.2.196.17 |
Like the board says, there are lots of out-of-state plates floating around SE Michigan... but that's what attended booths are for! I'm all for this idea, but only if the money is properly allocated on the streets and freeways! My other concern is how the on/off ramps for toll booths will jam the streets even more. Everything will get thought of... if not, then we'll gripe anyway. | ||
Jfre66_77 Member Username: Jfre66_77 Post Number: 10 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 12.15.1.161 |
There is no question the roads in Southeast Michigan suck, but Treble484 raised an excellent point. The large steel and gravel haulers destroy the roads. The amount of pressure they exert on the surface of the road is probably a hundred times the amount that a passenger vehicle does. Cutting the weight limits on these vehicles will add years to the life of our roads. For the public at large this would translate to a huge savings on many levels. - Fewer traffic jams due to roads being shut down for repair. - Fewer traffic jams = less sitting = more actual driving = saving gas + saving time. - Less damage to our cars due to pothole damage, glass damage (who drives on Michigan freeways and hasn't had to have a windsheild replaced at least every other year?) Granted a change like this wouldn't fix the problem completely, but I truly believe it is a good first step. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 517 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 194.138.39.53 |
No, don't you people get it? It's the Automakers who are keeping our Michigan roads so bad! They have so much clout in our everyday lives that they MAKE us buy new cars by keeping the roads so crappy! Get a fricken clue, people!!! | ||
Tamber Member Username: Tamber Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 84.162.34.40 |
I dated a guy, who new a fellow, who was hired by one of the big three to join this group, and they are the ones who help to tear up the roads. I wish I had more details, I was just so drunk, I can't remember everything, except the conspiracy of it all. If you do a triangulation, you will see that it all points to the big three. | ||
Jfre66_77 Member Username: Jfre66_77 Post Number: 11 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 12.15.1.161 |
While the big three certainly have their share of materials delivered in/on large trucks, as well as ship vehicles on car haulers, I'm confused as to the conspiracy theory on how the big three destroy our roads. Could someone elaborate on how they do this? (btw I do not work for the big three or any of their suppliers) I can tell you that in the area I live, the roads are destroyed by the tandem trailer semis that haul dirt and gravel to and from all of the new subdivisions that are being constucted. These trucks are probably pushing at least 40+ tons fully loaded. Not to mention the fact that as they leave construction sites, they scatter dirt/mud/gravel and other debris all over the roadways from their large tires. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 392 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.21.90 |
A basic flaw in Taub's plan: how will out-of-state people pay the toll on I-75 if the only way to pay is with the card or a higher-priced fine? Will a booth be established at the state line where out-of-staters obtain the card? What if someone enters on US-23, but then gets on I-75 a few miles north? With that complication, there may as well be regular toll booths. It sounds like Taub hasn't thought this one out much. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1335 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Get EZ Pass. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 520 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 194.138.39.53 |
Do what they do in Austria. If you want to drive on the Freeway, you need a sticker. offer stickers for 10 days, 1 month, 12 months. Anyone caught driving on the freeway without the sticker gets a fine 2Xs the 12 month price. Make the 10 day sticker more expensive per day, that way you can charge the out-of-towners more. Anyone daring enough to not buy a sticker gets socked at! | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 100 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
Burnsie: My impression is that they take a picture of your license plate and send you a bill if you don't have a sticker on your car. The only person who is going to make out on this is the guy who supplies the toll equipment. How much is the state going to spend sending out the bills and administering this? If we all agree that we need to spend more on the roads, and that users should pay, then isn't an increase in the gas tax a lot easier way to get this done? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1665 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.234 |
There's another flaw in the plan. If you turn a freeway into a toll road, You lose the federal governments portion of the interstate maintenance fund for that road. So if you go toll you also have to make up for the loss of the federal governments funds. That makes no sense for a state that is already a major donor state to the federal government. By going toll we are effectively choosing to tax ourselves at a higher rate. We're also letting more of our cash that we're already giving to the federal government flow to other states. Also Tolls collecected on an interstate can only be used for the maintenance and build out of that road. It cannot be put into the big bucket to fix any other road. (Message edited by ndavies on March 10, 2006) | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1654 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Ndavies, federal funds are determined by how much gas tax is paid by the state. Michigan receives 92.5 cents for every dollar paid in gas tax. I don't think having tolls would change our reimbursement. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1666 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.234 |
According to the Federal Highway administrations website this is the way toll roads work. http://www.ops.fhwa.dot.gov/to lling_pricing/index.htm a quote directly from thier website
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Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1667 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.234 |
The Federal Government has laws that greatly restrict the ability of a state to convert a federally paid for freeway into a toll road. It appears they loosened the rules a little last year. However they still exact a price for that conversion. From the background statement of the new law changes.
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Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1655 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
I know that. I was talking about Mi funding, if a toll fee could pay for the upkeep of 75 Mi would still receive the same amount of funds but now instead of the money on 75 it could go towards other projects. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1668 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.234 |
So either way you end up with taxing some people extra to pay for roads elsewhere. Still doesn't make any sense. Just raise the damn Gasoline taxes. It would do two things. It reduces the amount people drive, slowing wear and tear and it taxes the people who actually use the the roads the most. The larger heavier vehicles that do the most damage to the roads use more fuel. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 525 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 194.138.39.53 |
MONORAILS! | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 36 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
Yeah, I'd be in favor of a small increase in gas tax...say 5 cents or less? That would cost me an additional 50 cents on each fillup. If the roads were better, that would be worth it. But then again, this is the region that won't spend $5 a year to keep the zoo open. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1669 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.234 |
Most of us consider Road building a nescessity of government. Zoo building is a frill. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1336 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Road building for zero population growth, when you can't maintain what you already have, is a frill. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2341 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.210.54 |
Welcome to the forum Treble484. I totally agree about the ridiculous weights allowed on Michigan roads - highest in the country I believe - which with our freeze - thaw cycle really rips things up. The whole world marvels at the German autobahns and rightfully so. But take a spin on them and the first thing you will notice small the trucks are. IMO the simplest and fairest way to resolve our broken roads is to charge those who use them via gasoline tax, registrations and permits. No new bureacracies and systems to maintain are needed. Just hike them enough to cover the costs. Oh, and Michigan does have a toll road on the I-75... The Mackinaw Bridge which offers a high tech collection system. http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0 ,1607,7-151-9618_11016-95412-- ,00.html | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2408 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.51 |
Lowell, blame the trucking and business industry for keeping the weight limits so ridiculously low. They are a strong PAC in the State Legislature. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1854 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.3.45 |
Last thing I wanna see on Michigan freeways is toll booths. I still vaguely remember the Connecticut incident back in the 1980's where a truck drivers brakes gave way at a toll both and he slammed into the rear of about a half dozen cars waiting to pay their toll. The resulting carnage killed about a dozen people, and the accompanying fireball injured dozens. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1337 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Yes, it was the toll booth's fault. That kind of thing would never happen otherwise. What's the big deal? You have toll booths at the Bridge and Tunnel. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1856 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.3.45 |
DANINDC, let me explain the Detroit bridge and tunnel to you..... you first have to SLOW DOWN to get off the freeway AT EXIT RAMPS, and then you have either stop signs and stop lights, as well as a series of TURNS before you even enter the bridge or tunnel plazas. Try doing all that at 60 MPH. Does that answer your question? | ||
Awfavre Member Username: Awfavre Post Number: 31 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 69.3.206.177 |
With respect to the truck weight limits, a friend who's a retired trucker said the reason Michigan weight limits are so high is so the Big Three can make short-haul shipments of tremendous weights between plants. 1) Is this true? 2) With so many auto plant closings in Michigan, how vital to the Big Three is it to keep the limits so high? 3) If I-75 becomes a toll road, will they lower the weight limits on it to help preserve the road's integrity? | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3265 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Fuggetaboutit. Michigan will never have a toll road nor a death penalty. Some things are sacred. You wanna be like Illinois? Have some pride of place, ok. jjaba, Westsider. | ||
Kilgore_south Member Username: Kilgore_south Post Number: 25 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 24.176.20.117 |
Treble484 - as a professional trucker the words 'motor carrier enforcement officer' always strike fear in my heart  But I have to agree - the huge multi-axle trucks are really the reason for our poor roads. We can't use regular asphalt because these trucks quickly put deep ruts in it. The only viable material is concrete, but it chips away and wears out more quickly than asphalt. We're screwed either way. On the whole, I'd like to keep our roads funded and built by 'we the people.' I don't care if toll roads are in vogue at the moment in right-wing nutjob circles; roads are part of the Commons, owned collectively by all the citizens. So they should be funded collectively by all of us. | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 2618 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Shelly Taub will die a long political death on this one..... Are you kidding? Freeways are to Detroit what shot guns are to Texas.... Its a natural right. "baby come on over....I miss you." "Aw girl, you know I ant got to money for the toll road till Friday." haha | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 39 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
I don't think they should be used here in the city. It would likely only make congestion worse. It wouldn't be a bad idea for long, rural freeways like I-75, US-131, and US-127 up north...perhaps I-69 as well. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 380 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
PERFECT metaphor! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3310 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
It really is a great metaphor, and exactly why, wrong or right, we aren't going to see any major tolls here for decades to come, IMO. Like I said, people will go for a raise in the gas tax before they'd even consider any major toll roads in Michigan. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1261 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
True true. It's still striking me as weird (and admirable) that an Oakland county republican proposed this. (Message edited by mackinaw on March 10, 2006) | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 171 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
bring it - as long as the potholes go away. it's a new millennium, boys and girls. any politician born before 1950 must die (just a random thought...) | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 359 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Whew....am I glad I'm not a politican...... | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.56.156 |
toll roads in Michigan??? unreal. toll roads exist to cover costs for out-of-state travelers crossing a state to another one. md, jersey, masspike, nystatethru, paturn, ohioturn, etc. etc. this rich guy in oc wants the poor folks upnorth to pay to get from point a to point b. very bad idea. maybe if there were alternatives it could be considered. trains anyone??? | ||
Dsmith Member Username: Dsmith Post Number: 98 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 68.41.202.23 |
A couple of notes on Taub: 1. She is the Chairwoman of the House Transportation Appropriations Committee, so she should understand the challenges of road funding. 2. She is running for State Senator this upcoming fall. | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 39 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 71.227.49.60 |
For the roads to survive, the heavy trucks need to be re-thought. If the matter is to find new sources of funding, then maybe a penny per gallon tax increase is needed. It's unreal how many bridges are on the verge of collapsing. There may not be widespread catasthropic failures but you will see much more personal injury grom falling concrete in a short time. This year was mild, what will show is when we get a long sustained heat wave. Especially when the restrictions on loads come off the big trucks. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2420 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 199.74.87.51 |
Angry dad, blame the trucking industry. They have a lot of clout in the State Legislature. And who listens to their profit-first, safety-last demands? Republicans. | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 2624 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
The challenge is not in truck traffic, but more in that wonderful science - Urban Planning. The Federal Highway system was built in a time of national population growth and expansion of suburbanism. The child of Hitler's industrial supporters like Thyssen, the US liked what it saw in the Autobahn and began this expansion in the US. Detroit industrialists enjoyed this as it gave new reason for the expanion of automobile production. So began the Urban planners dream- new communities and wonderful roads to get there. The problem comes in the financing. In the 50's the expansion of the economy allowed for the financing of major projects, with small cheap labor costs. Federal revenues were abounding. Now with the growth in the finaning the war on terror, many projects of infrastructure are taking a backseat to overseas military actions. Since Reagan took office in 1980, there has been a continous siphoning off of the dollars once used by state planning and transportation officials to build and maintain these roads, bridges, and yes, leavees. There is a crisis in Urban Planning projects and it is due to a lack of federal reinvestment in the states. Welcome to the New Federalism. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 2891 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.250.96.213 |
Zulu, Interesting take on the matter. Nothing is ever clean-cut, always many factors involved. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3272 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Zula warrior tells it like it tis. 5 million people in SE Michigan and not a planner ever took public transports. jjaba knows that even the bus managers drive personal cars to work. They wouldn't be caught dead on public vehicles. (No, they drive public cars, sorry.) Thet's the cynicism. Not true in many other American cities. Not only suburbs, the entire City of Detroit is a low-rise single home plan which relies on private cars for the most part. jjaba, Westsider. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3315 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Detroit maybe low-rise for an "older" city, but when you have the sunbelt sprawlers with light rails lines, it gets to see why Detroiters wouldn't support even a small line itself. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 2894 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.212.127.245 |
People in the Metro region like their cars. Until there is a major change in that mindset, there will be no change towards any true mass transit in this region. How many are willing to give up their personal vehicles, to rely on public transit? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3316 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Just as many if not more than has been done in many of the sunbelt sprawlers who have mass transit lines. The automobile influence is greatly overstated, especially considering newer cities who are MUCH more tied to automobile transportation than Detroit. People seem to forget that as ineffective as DDOT is, it still relatively busy compared to the newer, sprawled cities. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 241 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 70.225.118.227 |
Cars bad. Transit good. Tax cars. Tax driving. Build transit. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3281 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Many systems serve the suburbs around the USA. Metro NYC/NJ Transit, Chicago has five Metro lines plus city el service, Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston, San Jose, Portland(Oregon), BART, Miami, Salt Lake City, Denver, San Diego, Miami, Atlanta, Washington/Baltimore, Boston, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Sacramento, St,Louis, Tampa, Cleveland. After you read this list, you can see how far behind Detroit has become in the last 50 yrs. since suburbanization. Can you think of others? jjaba on mass transit systems. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1857 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.203 |
I had a question about the ultra high weight limits on Michigan roads. Which is higher.... A) The cost to ALL Michigan residents to continually fix roads with a shorter road life span. OR B) The cost to the auto industry if weight reductions were implemented? If the answer is "A", then why don't we just give the auto industry a subsidy that would make up for the additional costs to them with lower load limits, save some money on fewer road repairs, and enjoy better roads! If the answer is "B"..... nevermind.... | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 933 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.142.86.133 |
Toll Roads are a waste of time and fuel.....unless they can come up with a system to allow charges without slowing traffic at all. The backups in Chicagoland toll booths are HORRENDOUS. The backups at the Bay Bridge can be 45 minutes or more during commute time, waiting to file through the toll booths. The amount of time wasted is enormous. The amount of fuel and pollution it creates is enormous as well. I don't mind the tolls at all. In fact, in some instances it is nice as if there's a free alternative I'm amazed at how many people will take the free road to avoid paying $2. (Chicago Skyway). Won't happen is my guess. If it does, traffic cannot slow. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1864 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.84 |
Just building the infrastructure of toll plaza's, maintaining them, paying the toll attendants, paying workers to empty the change from the unmanned booths etc., would cost millions. Then there's the administrative people to manage the toll booths... This is all a big waste of money! Just take the extra nickel or whatever out of the gas tax. Why would we even want to bother setting up another government bureaucracy infrastructure for toll collections?? | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 211 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Anyone who has ever driven through Toronto should be aware of the ETR 407. Everything is electronic, no need to stop or slow down. Your plate is read, you get a bill in the mail. Those who use the road often purchase transponders and get a discount. http://www.407etr.com/ This highway is a bypass and runs parallel to the no toll 401. As far as Metro Detroit is concerned, raising the gas tax may be more effective. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1866 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.84 |
Hey Upinottawa, how does that work for American's using that ETR407? They don't have access to the license plate databases of USA states? | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 2901 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.252.12.117 |
Gistok, Your argument that toll roads will create another bureaucracy is the best one I've seen about not establishing toll roads in Michigan. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1340 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Okay, so let's not have decent roads because we fear another bureacracy. Obviously, the Ohio Turnpike is extremely bogged down in red tape, isn't it? | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 2902 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.252.12.117 |
Can you guarantee another bureacracy will insure better roads? It damn well won't do anything for alternative transit systems which are greatly needed in this region. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1341 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Michigan needs better quality road surfaces AND better quality transit. Right now, neither one has a chance with the current state budget, and building more state-operated roads isn't going to help that at all. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 2904 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.252.12.117 |
The topic at hand is CONVERTING EXISTING roads to toll roads, nothing has been said about NEW ROADS. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 212 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Gistok, from the 407 FAQ page: Q. Do out-of-province users get a free ride? A. All users of the highway are billed, including out of province and U.S. users. If you choose to travel 407 ETR you are required by law to pay all tolls, fees and interest. The monthly bill is due upon mailing. I don't think that Ontario and Michigan have a reciprocity agreement with respect to highway traffic collections (I may be wrong). They will, however, send a collections agency after you and harm your credit rating. There were free rides a few years ago. When I was going to Queen's University a friend of mine would use the 407 without charge because he had New Brunswick plates. Unfortunately, they have fixed that problem now. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1342 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
No, but spending money to build new roads costs money--money that could be spent on fixing existing roads. Unfortunately, this is exactly what Gov. Granholm proposed with the Fix It First program, and you'll recall that such a radical idea caused quite an uproar. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3291 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
No tolls are collected on existing Interstate highways. So, unless Michigan builds a new private fucking tollroad, like they built out West 150 yrs. ago, Michigan isn't getting tollroads. Any legislation in this regard outta Lansing is unconstitutional. Gistok has nothing to worry about. The Govt. has enough new FEMA bureaucrats so we don't need anymore right now. jjaba, Transportation Maven, trying to reassure Gitok and Jams. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2049 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Never happen. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 2905 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.252.12.117 |
jjaba, I have no qualms about this happening. One thing I've learned is when Ndavies speaks on a subject he knows what he is talking about. Something, I guess, that comes from that engineering mind that strives for accuracy. If I could ever learn how to resize to post, I'd like to put up a photo of a commerative plate I have from Hudson's series in 1931, showing "early Detroit Toll Gate". Of course, one can check out the placque on the stone on front of the former Brodhead Armory, on Jefferson, marking the site of a tollgate at the old city limit. I think it may have been the last one, but I prefer to have that confirmed. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3294 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Jams, be sure to remind us when you get to 3,000 posts. jjaba sends a prize. Mazel tov on your loyalty to The Forum. Yes, Ndavies does a great job. jjaba, front seat on the Dexter bus. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 216 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
The state could place a toll both on the entrance to the Ambassador Bridge Duty Free Gas shop. That would ensure the Ontarians pay their fair share of Michigan road maintenance. Of course, that would be both stupid and unconstitutional.... | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3298 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Maybe the intl. bridge and tunnel officials can insist that Canadians fill up their gas tanks in the USA to pay for their use of our roads going to and from the Oakland Mall. jjaba, now there's hospitality, eh. | ||
Harsensis Member Username: Harsensis Post Number: 31 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.227.102.82 |
One thing that I notice is that the weight stations never seem to be open in Michigan. Plus they just closed and tore down the ones on I-94 north or east of 23 mile. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 829 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Toll roads will nevr work in MI, we are a destination state (kinda) and not a pass through state for enough people to make it worthwhile. As for the debate about the heavy trucks killing the states roads, that is completely true. Our politicians explaination for not lowering the weight limit is it would hurt the economy, by forcing companies to put more trucks on the roads to transport the same amount material, thus costing companies more, and causing more congestion. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 82 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.14.26.135 |
I believe toll roads in some form are inevitable. Current road funding assumes people are buying taxed fuel in sufficient quantities. More efficient vehicles and alternative energy vehicles break that paradigm. Some form of pay-as-you-drive user fees is a likely replacement. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 211 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 68.41.162.189 |
Great discussion. It was correctly pointed out above that the Indiana tollroad is being privatized, sold to an Australian company and a prtner from another foreign country. The State has acknowledged that the tolls will be DOUBLED by the new owner. The State claims to have lost money on the tollroad for many years. The Chicago Skyway has also been sold to a private owner, and the toll increased to $2.50, not a horrendous increase. I have an I-Pass for use around Chicago (and on the Skyway). I purchased it because tolls were recently DOUBLED.if one pays cash at a booth, and remained the same when using I-Pass, a transponder which debits one's accounts with each use. The toll booths cause massive backups, as pointed out above, some 10 miles or more. And, because so many users have switched to I-Passes, the traffic thru the transponder lanes is now backed up as well. Millions of manhours and gallons of gas needlessly wasted. The idea of putting toll booths on I-75 or in any urban area is the heighth of idiocy and will increase the costs, both out of pocket and indirect, astronomically, far more so than any possible benefits. I believe the roads in MI are so bad, not only because of truck weights, but because they must be built of of concrete made out of corn meal mush. The road builders PAC insures that the roads will have to be rebuilt every 10- 15 years to keep them in business. Toronto has the same freeze-thaw cycles as Detroit and its roads are 100 times better than our. German roads are also an example of how high speed, heavily travelled road can be be onstructed to last years longer than ours. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2054 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Weigh stations simply do not work as intended, Harsensis. First off, we know where they are at because they are already listed on maps of Michigan. Truckers can (and do) route themselves around them if they are carrying anything that will place them over the limit. Overweight vehicles, as well a vehicles that have obvious DOT violations, can be located though by a stepped up DOT presence utilizing mobil patrols. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 831 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
The choice of how to build the roads in MI is a cost factor. It is cheaper for the state to replace the roads using current building methods than using thicker concrete, like the section of I 75 just north of downtown. MDOT agrees that these roads last longer, but there is not money to building using these methods, and just plain cheaper for the state to replace the roads like they currently do. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 892 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
I can't find the article right now, but there's a prof at U-Mich who's developed a light-weight longer lasting road surface that's been put to use in Europe. Although initially it's more expensive in the long run it's cheaper because it holds up. If I can track down the info I'll post it. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 475 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
I was just going to say, with all the talk about nanotechnology, you'd think we would have seen some new road materials recently. Thanks, Lilpup. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 639 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.42.220.37 |
The economic, social and environmental costs of private automobiles are catastrophic; unfortunately, they are not borne by the drivers themselves. I think economicsts call this an externality cost or moral hazard. The bottom line: too much driving, well beyond the point where it is a rational deployment of resources. To end the scourge of sprawl, we must have policies like tolls that impose the full crushing cost of driving on drivers, including the roads, the ecological damage that cars cause, the social costs of sprawl, the war in Iraq. I'd like to see gas at $7-8 a gallon. Then, this nightmare of post-war suburbia would draw to close, and the glorious new day of urbanism, high density, efficiency, ecological stewardship and diversity would begin. (No, this is not sarcasm. This is how I really feel). | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1898 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.150.51 |
Gas at $7-$8 per gallon.... then the USA economy will really be in the toilet.... Not just gas goes up with the price of crude oil.... but everything that is made from it. Everything from Lego toys for the kids to the plastics that cleaning products are stored in. Inflation would go thru the roof.... the oil companies would get richer, and the Michigan economy's auto industry would be especially hard hit... it would be anything but "a glorious new day". | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2059 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Another way to look at this for all of those people with their panties in a bunch over traffic and imposing high taxes on it in one form or another as a "solution": When you go to the store to purchase your weekly groceries...a truck brought it. When you go to buy some new clothes, appliances, whatever...a truck brought it. When you get your mail or any packages sent to your home or go to the corner mailbox to send a card or letter...a truck brought it or will bring it. Those trucks don't run on goodwill, they run on either gasoline or diesel. Now if your want to jack up the price to over three times the current going rate with taxes/fees/whatnot, be prepared to see a dramatic increase in the prices that you will pay for everything that I have mentioned above. MCP-001 gladly removing your rose-colored glasses and smashing them into little pieces! | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 645 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.42.220.37 |
These are good poitns, but high gas prices don't equate with high petroleum prices, because the price of gas can include a significant tax that does not have to be applicable to other uses of oil (like legos). Incidently, legos are made in Europe which does have $6 gasoline. The core problem is this: drivers in America get a free ride. They engage in behavor that imposes enormous costs on all society, including them, but they personally do not directly bear the cost in a controllable, discerable way. So they drive with abandon while the staggering socio-economic costs continue to rise. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2064 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
If you ever get the opportunity to look it up Ray, check out what the two largest costs are in the transportation industry (hint labor & fuel). No business every survived by "eating" the cost to doing business (regardless of what the Michigan republicans, er I meant republicrats were thinking when they increased the minimum wage last week). Transportation companies will just tack on fuel surcharges to the costs for their customers or simply raise rates altogether. The examples that I've included above are no different. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 83 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.14.26.135 |
If I understand Ray correctly, he's talking about a tax shift to remove driving subsidies. Why should the taxpayer subsidize driving? I'd glady accept a doubling of the price of fuel in exchange for a $1,000 tax deduction.
Transportation costs represent a very small portion of the total cost of groceries. Unfortunately I cannot find the government study I'd read previously. It basically said transport costs were a few pennies for each dollar you spent at the grocery store. Fuel costs are some percentage of that. If taxpayers didn't subsidize trucking, maybe there'd be more Michigan apples in the grocery store than Washington or New Zealand apples. Maybe it'd make local farmers and products more competitive with imports. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1350 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
A couple comments: 1. Interesting that Michiganders tend to expect transit to pay for itself, but dare suggest that drivers need to pay more of their fair share, and the peanut gallery goes ape. 2. Also interesting that some want to use German road-building technology, but conveniently forget the Deutsche Bahn and ICE rail networks that contribute to lessening roadway traffic. Is Michigan going to build those too??? 3. How is the pavement material the problem, when Michigan follows the same design procedures as neighboring states (defined in AASHTO)? Perhaps there's something else afoot, such as the decades of deferred maintenance, and ceaseless highway expansion? | ||
Unclefrank Member Username: Unclefrank Post Number: 3 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 192.85.50.2 |
I worked for 11 years as a Motor Carrier Enforcement Officer and if Michigan outlawed the 11 axle steel haulers and gravel trains like other states, we wouldn't have so bad of roads. Those mega size 160,000 lb. trucks destroy our roads. Finally someone who knows what they are talking about! | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 837 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Like those mega trash trucks coming from Canada down I-94. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 229 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
I doubt the trash trucks are a major road destroying factor. What is the density of trash? I will assume it is less than steel or gravel. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1683 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.105 |
Those "mega trash trucks" have to meet Ontario's weight limits. They are driven on Ontario's roads to get to the bridge. They weigh far less than the home grown trash, steel and gravel trucks. (I don't see them stuffing more trash on them at the bridge.) | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 231 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Actually, at the bridge the trucks are loaded with really heavy illegal immigrants.... The only problem with the trash trucks is the fact that trash often stinks. Those guys who own the dump are certainly not complaining...as Toronto's trash smells like cash to them. Regardless, I believe Michigan imports more trash from adjacent states than from Toronto. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2067 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
Check out the price of diesel when you get the chance, Fishtoes2000. It costs nearly the same if not more than gasoline does (and it's rising). | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 54 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.166.44.44 |
East Coast residents have toll roads from Maine all the way through Virginia. We don't have to stop at any toll booths in any of the states (including Illinois) if we have an unobtrusive transmitter on the upper windshield that automaticly pays our tolls (it's called EZ Pass or Smart Pass). Trucks pay enormous rates to use the roads compared to passenger cars. This way the "roadwreckers" pay their fair share. Sort of like the income tax; it's graduated. User fees are the way to go for a lot of what are now public troughs and sinkholes for money. If the toll road isn't maintained, people won't use it. If the park is unkempt and unsafe, people will go elsewhere. It isn't a cure-all but when you have a toll road and a dedicated management and maintenence organization for that road, you know who to blame. the river rat for privatization | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1353 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I don't know that I'm for privatization of publicly-owned infrastructure. I do support an even playing field for transportation. This city boy doesn't care to pay for building new highways through cornfields in order to promote construction of new Wal Marts and subdivisions. Maybe when drivers have to actually cover the entire cost of driving, we'll see how cheap it really isn't. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 84 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.14.26.135 |
I check the price of diesel/fuel oil every time I fill up the tank in my car (since 1999) or my house (since 1993.) And speaking of subsidies, diesel fuel is taxed by the state at a lower rate than gasoline. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 134 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 148.61.248.170 |
Yea, I always think the "but mass transit is expensive" while someone is driving on a freeway is funny. Buying a car, repairing it, insuring it, gasing it, and paying taxes for its roads is expensive. But at least within my lifetime gas will become to expensive for driving to be practical, and we won't have to worry about freeways anymore. |
