Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Detroit Incinerator Question Previous Next
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Shasta_daisy
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Username: Shasta_daisy

Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 11:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, yeah, new to the forum....I am wondering if anyone knows the name or where I can find a copy of the city ordinance that prohibits recycling in Detroit? I heard someone refer to it as the "float and sort" ordinance but I can't find it under that name. I have the regs/ordinances but not sure if I have the correct ones. Just trying to save some time, yeah call me lazy.
Thanks
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1056
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

werent they closing this facility down?
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2799
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.65
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The incinerator won't close until the bonds are paid off, which will be 2008, give or take one year.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1482
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no such ordinance that I know of.

I beleive the city runs a recycling center in the old Chene/Ferry Market.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 928
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

recyclemidtown, http://www.midtowndowntown.com / , collects every 2nd saturday on 2nd ave just south of prentis :-) , and every 3rd saturday in corktown and rosedale ...obviously a community effort, not the city's
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Shasta_daisy
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Username: Shasta_daisy

Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oops, sorry...looking for the ordinance that prohibits curbside pickup requiring all trash pickup to go to the incinerator.
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1257
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.238.170.39
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The incinerator deal ends in 2008. Since the city dumps $10s of millions of subsidies every year into the place, Kwame has committed to closing and tearing the place down in 2008.

While this makes sense from a financial standpoint, it doesn't make sense from a infrastructure standpoint. Currently the incinerator provides the vast majority of the steam for downtown. How will this lost capacity be replaced? Nothing said about that yet.

I'm not familiar with an ordinance that prohibits curbside recycling in Detroit. It may be written into the incinerator deal as that came online just as the recycling movement was beinging in the US. CAY may have written that clause into the agreement in a shortsighted effort to head off a potential loss of garbage to burn.

I'd think that the city would likely start up curbside recycling if the Waste division were dismantled and a private contractor were brought in as well as the incinerator shut down. While recycling doesn't generally pay for itself, it is certainly a lot cheaper than paying to dump it in a landfill.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1485
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 2:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The incinerator deal ends in 2008. Since the city dumps $10s of millions of subsidies every year into the place, Kwame has committed to closing and tearing the place down in 2008.




When/Where did this commitment take place?

It seems to me that if run correctly, this could be a great asset to the city financially. It is my impression that right not the bum deal is the financing and the lack of control the city has.

Once it is paid off, and is returned to city control, is it possible it could be clean and either profitable or a cheaper way to dispose of city waste?
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Susanarosa
Member
Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 763
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.39.170.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 2:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doesn't DTE use the GDRRA steam as well?
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Gravitymachine
Member
Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 929
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 2:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I actually don't mind it, aside from the putrid smell and the fallout that is :-)
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1667
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 2:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

KK has stated in interviews that he plans on closing the incinerator after the bonds are paid off. Detroiters currently pay $90 to $100 more per ton of trash then the suburbs do because of the incinerator. At the time of the incinerator deal was being pushed no one knew that it would cost $15 to $20 (I believe this is the cost if you recycle) dollars a ton to dispose of trash in a land fill.
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Detroitduo
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Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 547
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 194.138.39.56
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 2:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ugh. Tell me about it Gravity... and I live about 2 miles from the thing. I'd be quite happy for them to get rid of it, but I do wonder how they will accomodate the steam in the future... especially considering all the upgrades they have been doing to the system, I'm guessing steam will be around for a while, but from where?
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Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1262
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.238.170.39
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 2:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The commitment from KK to close the incinerator upon expiration of the bonds in 2008 has been stated publicly several times by KK. Most of the settings he is saying this are in discussion on taxes.

Currently Detroit property owners pay a millage for garbage instead of a more rational fee based on the volume you acutally throw out. I pay about a $125 to $150 per year for garbage (ie the incinerator) on a home valued around $117,000 by the city. I pay this despite only having a half full garbage can every week due to recycling through Rosedale Recycles. Meanwhile my neighbors, who pay the same or less in taxes for garbage (many have a very low SEV from living there for years) have overflowing cans every week and used to put out huge volumes of waste every month for bulk. Don't ask me where it all comes from, but I'm slightly glad that bulk has been canceled and has created a bit more equity in paying for garbage pickup.

As far as the health problems from the incinerator, it is well documented that athsma and other respiratory problems are double the average in the neighborhoods downwind from the incinerator (ie. to the east). Canada has also complained loudly about the air quality problems it creates for them.

Shutting down the incinerator will help the budget, health and environment of Detroit and the surrounding areas. Sounds like a good deal to me.

P.S. The incinerator is operated by Altria, yes the cigarette maker. I'm surprised the city hasn't thought up a way to paint the smoke stack like a Marlboro to generate advertising revenue to cut down on the operating subsidy for the place.

Here is a link:

http://www.marygrove.edu/ids/D etroit_Waste_Incinerator.asp
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Jsmyers
Member
Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1486
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 3:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't disagree with you Bvos.

I believe the cost of putting trash in the incinerator is driven largely by paying off the cost of constructing it, and maybe also paying the outside entity to operate it.

It seems possible to me that once those two things are out of the way, it might actually be in the city's financial interest to use the thing. (Of course in parallel with good recyling, compost, and hazardous waste programs.)

Also remember that huge improvments to pollution control have been added since it was first built. I would also assume that more could be done once it is in the city's control again.
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Alexei289
Member
Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1060
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 3:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

... Canada should be the LAST people complaining about an incinerator... since we have become their dumping ground...
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Dialh4hipster
Member
Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1486
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.250.205.35
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 4:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The horrendous smell generated all summer long from that place should be reason enough to shut it down. Absolutely disgusting, and right in the middle of the city for visitors to experience in all its glory.

And I'm sure that, as detroitduo states, it's lovely for the residents of Brush Park.
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Goat
Member
Username: Goat

Post Number: 8259
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.54.68.220
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 4:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alexei, Your gov't WANTED the garbage dumbass. It was putting money in THEIR (YOUR) pocket.

BTW: We inherit more pollution from the USA than vice versa.
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Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1269
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.238.170.39
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 4:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The city subsidizes the incinerator by several million annually in addition to and separate from the bond money used to construct the place. It would be far cheaper for the city to send all its garbage to a landfill even without separating the yard waste and recycling. The reason Altria runs the place is because when the city ran it, they lost even more money.

There is no way this thing will be a good option for the city financially, environmentally or from a health standpoint. The end of the bond coinsides with the terms of the contract with Altria and is Detroit's chance to get out of this horrible contract.
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Michigansheik
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Username: Michigansheik

Post Number: 105
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 131.156.153.168
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 4:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Covanta Engergy runs the place for Altria.
It will always cost more to run since it's running at 33% capacity, only Detroit uses it due to the cost penalaty vs a land fill. Even when paid off, its too under utilized to be worth it.
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Shasta_daisy
Member
Username: Shasta_daisy

Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 5:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it true that the city gets penalized if it doesn't get enough trash to burn in the incinerator? Which is why I am trying to find the city ordinance/whatever-it-is that prohibits curbside recycling. If the city offers recycling to its residents, then less trash that gets sent to the incinerator and Detroit gets charged a fee. . .
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Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1273
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.238.170.32
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 5:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your question about the city getting penalized without enough trash is correct. That is why the city has to subsidize the incinerator by several million a year. The subsidy is in actuality a penalty. Folks above have aluded to the fact that other municipalities were supposed to bring their trash to Detroit or at least it was believed that there would be a market for other municipal trash that Detroit could tap into.

There was an excellent article in the Metro Times written a few years ago on the incinerator that would probably answer many of you questions and get you on the right track for some of your more detailed questions.

Here it is: http://www.metrotimes.com/edit orial/story.asp?id=3053

You'll find many interesting tidbits in other articles if you search the Metro Times archives online.
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Michigansheik
Member
Username: Michigansheik

Post Number: 106
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 131.156.153.168
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 5:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

unless it can run cleanly at a higher utilization it's going to close.
the city should recycle which worsens the case for it.
great idea at the time (democract blanchard gov) but then landfills were allowed to open up again.
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 1879
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.81.118
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 6:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree Dialh4hipster.... that rotting stench wafting over the I-94 Dequindre Yard Bridge & I-75 interchange in hot weather is enough to gag a maggot....

What really irritated me was that Mayor Archer's DPW chief had the gall to say back in the 1990's that there was absolutely no smell coming from the Incinerator plant! Yea right!
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Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 6:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was the Michigan Legislature that created all those landfills. Back in the late 1980's and early 90's, they were concerned that the state was running out of landfill space, so they required that each county prepare a solid waste management plan and provide for at leat one landfill within each county.

The result of the implementation of these plans during the 1990's resulted in an oversupply of landfills and the tipping fees in MI fell dramatically. This is why it is economically feasible for the city of Toronto to ship their trash in trucks over 200 miles to landfills in Wayne and Macomb Counties.

The law of unintended consequences strikes again! Sometimes govt. makes a bad situation even worse by not letting the private marketplace sort out capacity issues.
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Harsensis
Member
Username: Harsensis

Post Number: 30
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 71.227.102.82
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 12:25 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Part of the smell last summer was from the Piquette Market. After the fire there were tons of food rotting which made it really stink down there. Also the City Transfer station (next door to the incinerator) seemed to have a work slow down. I don;t know the reason why, but their whole yard was packed with trash that stunk bad. Then all of the sudden they lit a fire under their seats and moved it all out.
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Shasta_daisy
Member
Username: Shasta_daisy

Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 10:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Bvos for the link. And everyone else for the info.

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