Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Dialogue on a possible Quicken Loans move Downtown Previous Next
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Rust
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Username: Rust

Post Number: 127
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 64.118.136.130
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 8:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More dialogue on a possible Quicken Loans move to Downtown.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060317/B IZ/603170359/1001

Is this the first time Dan Gilbert has talked publicly about a possible downtown move?
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Detroitduo
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Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 551
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 194.138.39.56
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 9:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Reading this and thinking about the possibilities and the effects makes me want to jump out of my skin!
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Username: Jdkeepsmiling

Post Number: 65
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 208.50.91.234
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 9:30 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It has been discussed on the forum many times, but I beleive that this is the first time that it ahs been publicly acknowledged. Boy would I be pissed if he moved to Cleveland!! I would tell anyone far and wide not to use them. I agree with the article, I hope he goes into Grand Circus Park, that would be an anchor that would put some business in an area that is leaning heavily residential.
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1953
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Username: 1953

Post Number: 729
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 209.104.146.146
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:19 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think I just wet myself.
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 517
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:29 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hope Dan Gilbert isn't stupid enough to listen to the few morons who would oppose a move to downtown Detroit.

3-6 months can't come soon enough!
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Cartoonguy
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Username: Cartoonguy

Post Number: 88
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.226.154.43
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Adding more bulk to woodward would be better than moving to GCP. Detroit is full of islands of development, it doesn't need anymore. A building on Woodward would fill that gaping Hudson Hole, and make our main drag truly walkable for a least a couple of blocks.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 223
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My vote is for the Hudson block -- the City of Detroit and the State of Michigan should go out of their ways to secure development for that site. A growing, successful Michigan company would be a good fit.
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Wmuchris
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Username: Wmuchris

Post Number: 291
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.58.36.2
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 11:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, the Hudson Block is the only place for them. It would create a fully walkable woodward, and help fill the storefronts up and down the street.

Grand Circus park is better suited for residential, perhaps many of the young employees that would come with a possible Quicken Loans move would be interested in living in the area.
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 414
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.248.5.189
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 11:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Yes, the Hudson Block is the only place for them".

I suspect that if Dan Gilbert wants Grand Ciruc Park....that will be the place for them.
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 518
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 11:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I say save the Hudson's block for a mix of small to mid sized tenants and put Rock at Grand Circus Park. If Rock moved to the Hudson's block, where would everyone park? The underground garage has how many spaces? I'm sure it is not enough for everyone that would work at the new hq.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1681
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.105
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 11:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't be surprised if Quicken doesn't get both the Statler and Hudson blocks. One third of the sites for offices, the rest for residential.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 5402
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 209.216.150.127
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 11:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe they'll buy and renovate the UA office building? lol...
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Wmuchris
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Username: Wmuchris

Post Number: 292
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.58.36.2
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 12:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I suspect that if Dan Gilbert wants Grand Ciruc Park....that will be the place for them.




True..
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Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 583
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 65.221.183.120
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 12:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This would be great not only for the development of Downtown Detroit, but also to offer job opportunities to people who live in the City and cannot travel to the Suburbs.

Lets hope Mr Gilbert moves his Company to Detroit!
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Machoken
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Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1158
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.145.38.104
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 12:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not to mention people who live in the suburbs but want to work downtown.
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2456
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 199.74.87.51
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now, if only we can get rid of the city income tax...
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Probably the single most important change Detroit needs to make a shift in its tax base from income taxes to property taxes. The city only gets 12% of it's revenue from property taxes which is completely ridiculous. The income tax is currently the chief source of revenue for the city. In many neighborhoods the city doesn't even assess the property's. Lots of folks pay almost no property taxes. Not to mention a measly collection rate (last I read only 87%). The income tax was probably one of the worst financial moves ever. EVER.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 224
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have read on this forum that Detroit has extremely high property taxes and that the level of property taxes is a major factor driving people out of the city.

Am I making this up?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7015
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.24
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No you are not. Lowering property tax and insurance will make the city available to more people. This should make up for the future decreases in property taxes if all goes well.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 14
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Upinottowa, the high property taxes spiel is a bit more complicated than many would be led to believe. The city actually does tax the hell out of the well known neighborhoods where property values are know to be high (IV, Boston Edison, Palmer Woods, etc.) But if you live in a lesser known area (i.e. not "known to be valuable or increasing in value") your house is unlikely to be assessed. Believe me. I KNOW. There's tons of people paying taxes as if there houses were worth $10,000 because the city never assesses them. Case in point, don't buy a house in a fancy neighborhood and you'll likely pay very little property tax. The media as usual doesn't really know what going on in the city. They just like to write stories acting like they do.
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 12.45.2.184
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 3:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think that if QL deceids to move to the CBD the statler site would be amazing. Add the tuller site in the deal with a parking deck and residential tower and you have then rebuilt grand circus, (it could be Grand again!). Or the monroe block with an even taller tower because of the less space than statler. But whatever DETROIT does they should work together with a different architect than Ross. to design the new structure this time. Try S.O.M. The compuware bldg looks OK for a city, great for the suburbs, but honestly, that bldg in New York(where I live) or Chicago would be a rec. center. DETROIT should get in high gear like it was in the 1920's. 313
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 598
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 70.230.16.61
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 6:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I actually think that a move to the Statler site would be better than a Hudson's block site, only because a Hudsons block site seems to be inevitable. Plans have to be submitted this year fore that site, correct? while Statler could sit still for many years if this didnt go through.
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 415
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.248.5.189
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 6:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good thinking MotorCityMayor2026!
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Wilus1mj
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Username: Wilus1mj

Post Number: 51
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 216.111.89.3
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 6:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More job opportunities to work Downtown....PLEASE!!!...SAVE ME FROM THE OFFICE METROPOLIS OF TROY..I NEED A VIEW
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 18
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 6:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wilus1mj, TAKE ME WITH YOU! TROY IS HELL! I WANT TO WALK TO LUNCH AGAIN!
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3348
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 8:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since GCP was mentioned, it would be more than safe to say that it is the Statler lot, or UA Office Building, that they are considering. Actually, it would be more likley they will be building, anew, so the Statler site seems like the focus at the moment. I'll echo most sentiments, here, and say that they can't possibly come soon enough.
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Jasoncw
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Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 131
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 148.61.248.170
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 8:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the monroe block shouldn't just be some coperate hq. I think it would be cool if they had some kind of trl thing with the window looking out (except not a sucky show), or a late night show, or some news room, "from the Monroe Building at Campus Martius". I think it would require too much cooperation and interest to actually happen, but that's what I want. Actually, I don't care where something like that would go, but the lot is big enough to have a landmark building, and Campus Martius is next to it.

I think a cool show being identified with Detroit would help make Detroit seem cool, and could help stop some of the brain drain.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 827
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This move to downtown is just too good to be true. Skipper's rule. A nice tall tower on the Hudson's sight would put them in camera view of Comerica Park during Tiger's games. That will be the site. Parking already built.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3350
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 11:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tall in what way? This thing will only be able to go 200 or so feet tops (around the Compuware height, but more likely shorter) because of the underground parking structure.

(Message edited by lmichigan on March 17, 2006)
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Adm70
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Username: Adm70

Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 69.247.41.132
Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 9:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I vote for a GCP location and reserve the Hudsons site for a hotel
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Bussey
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Username: Bussey

Post Number: 143
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 206.208.94.60
Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 9:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where is the technical specs on how the Hudsons site can only be 200 ft or so tall? Are the footers extremely short or something....



Where is your source for this info?
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Username: Jdkeepsmiling

Post Number: 67
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 69.216.100.91
Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 11:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bussy,
It has been discussed oin her many times... there is something with the way that the footings were made that limit that site to around 16 stories. I would do a search under Hudsons Block and look for the thread on it.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1277
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 12:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm I think the infill on the Hudson's site will occur inevitably within 2-5 years. If Rock/Quicken/whatever it's called comes to Detroit, I bet they will go with the Statler site. Very easy access from the Lodge via Bagley to Park right there. Underground parking that they could even purchase the rights to if they wanted. I want to see a moratorium on surface parking expansion downtown, with all parking going underground from now on. Nothing like looking at the satelite photos of north of Michigan Ave. east of the Lodge: one big parking lot.

An anchor such as a major corporate headquarter on the NW necklace of downtown would be great. There will then probably be a nice flow of pedestrians back and forth on Washington Blvd. to the financial district, and up and down Woodward to CMP. Plus it's 2-3 blocks to the stadia, DAC, and multiple theatres from this potential site. I would want it really bad if I were them, and all the more reason with easier car access than the Hudson's site.

Hudson's would be perfect for a modern hotel/retail development, being at the hub of downtown with everything walkable from there and underground and garage parking already there.
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Naturalsister
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Username: Naturalsister

Post Number: 525
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.42.169.65
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quicken Loans Company would be a very cool addition to Downtown Detroit. They have this morale thing going on there that sounds like it's a very cool place to work. Even beyond what I've read, seems like they have the employees high on life. Seems they have created this free invironment that breed performers.

I called them early last year just to see where their heads were. It's a year later and this guy still calls me now and again - and I can't describe how chipper.

In-house band at team meetings - awesome!

"JUNE 27, 2005 (COMPUTERWORLD) - Bonus trips to Las Vegas. Free slushies, cappuccino and popcorn. Weekly ticket giveaways to concerts and sporting events. An in-house rock band that livens up every meeting."

Here's the link to the whole article:

http://www.computerworld.com/c areertopics/careers/story/0,10 801,102711,00.html

later - naturalsister
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 640
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.42.220.37
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 2:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eastsidedog and Willus 1,

I weep now, for I know that I am not alone and there is help.

Troy is perhaps the worst place in the world, and what astounds and furstrates me on a day to day basis, is that virtually every single person I meet working in Troy thinks that it is great.

I start to question my own perceptions. Is me? Can they ALL be wrong? Where they see a beautiful "downtown", I see a dehumanizing wasteland, a momument to race and class insensitivy and cruelty (Big Beaver offices are deliberatly inaccessible to poor blacks), a spit in the face to 5000 years of human culture, and just generally and ugly, pathetic place to work.

But no, my view is an abberation. Everybody there (including every last employee at our firm from the CEO to the copy guy) seems to think it's just great. I am wracked with self-doubt. Then, mercifully, I have a meeting in San Francisco. I walk through SOMA, awash in engery and great architecture. And I realize, yes, they are all just wrong.

Troy is a hell hole, but what's stunning is not that it's a hell hole, but that all the people who live and work there can't figure this out. That's even more distrubing to me than the hell hole itself.
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Bussey
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Username: Bussey

Post Number: 145
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.212.58.28
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 3:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your point of view is not an abberation, SE Michigan's is.


We are facing a truly grand Lockean Dilemma.


The majority of our community is fine with the traditional suburban lifestyle as found in Livonia, Troy and Macomb Twp. Unfortunatly a small amount of us aren't and have to envy places like San Fran and Chicago while living in either the islands of Detroit (Woodbridge, Downtown, Midtown, or Corktown) or the walkable suburbs of Royal Oak, Ferndale, or Birmingham.


When will the Karmanos's and Illitch's start tract and infill housing around downtown?


Staring at the abandoned houses out my windows,

Bussey
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 646
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 68.42.220.37
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bussey,

We are the vangaurds of the revolution, and we must free the people from their ignorance and lead them to a new utopia!

You know, it would only take 50,000 residents to completely fill downtown detroit and turn it into a truly world class downtown. That's only 1% of the region.

I will never give up hope, at least not while out-of-state developers are building condos in downtown.
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Ddaydave
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Username: Ddaydave

Post Number: 344
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 67.149.185.244
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:18 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I was to develop downtown I would think about the block were the Donovan Sanders buildings stood
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1017
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.252.4.228
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:58 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hear you, Ray. I work in Dearborn, and I have no hope of walking to lunch during the day, either. (Unless that involves walking to the cafeteria in my building.)

To be fair, Dearborn isn't quite as bad as Troy in this respect, though... it has a couple of semi-walkable downtowns, and is fairly close to downtown Detroit.

Still, it's great to hear about more companies moving to downtown Detroit... I may finally be able to work there at some point.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1280
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 1:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great post Ray.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 1901
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.150.139
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 2:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I worked for 4 years in Troy. It was hell to get to and get home from. But one did have a good selection of restaurants and gourmet food stores to go to. If you ignore the somewhat bland architecture, it wasn't so bad. And outside of downtown/midtown/New Center in Detroit, downtown Royal Oak and downtown Birmingham, everywhere you want to go in the metro area requires a car anyway.

I wouldn't loose too much sleep over those poor souls who have to work there.
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 526
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.42.176.123
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 8:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If Gilbert moves his company to the Statler site, that will justify the demolition of the Statler in my eyes. I also prefer to see them go to the Statler site. It gives his growing company better options as far as what he can do with the building, i.e. build taller. I'd even be willing to part with the UA building if it meant Quicken would build something significant there. To me the Statler site just makes more sense for both Gilbert's ambitions and the progress of downtown. The Hudson's block seems like a good bet for development soon, with or without Quicken. Plus, a large, growing corporate HQ would have a greater impact, as far as improving downtown, on Grand Circus than it would on the Hudson's site.
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Mpow
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Username: Mpow

Post Number: 178
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 200.65.7.143
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think nothing could be more significant than a renovated UA building.
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 524
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Um, yeah, a new Rock Financial hq on the site of the UA and Statler, and then I would think that the demolition of both would be more than justified. Of course if there was a viable plan to renovate the UA, then go for it.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2810
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.65
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about this...Rock Financial on the Statler site, they kick in the funding to name the restored UA Theater the Rock Financial Music Theater.

Then, you could have the House of Blues at the Rock Financial Music Theater. Condos fill the UA office tower. Ilitch Holdings gets another theater renovated without using megabucks out of their pocket.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 994
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Mpow, I think it would spur even more development leading to more urban renewal in an area that is not being used to its potential.

The Hudsons site will be developed,a continuance of renewal in the Woodward Corridor, creating more foot traffic. Now it is time to connect the areas together by allowing other companies, like Quickens, to build in areas such as Grand Circus.

we need to focus on our future where if we are going to do downtown...it definitely is going to take more than one day.

dreamin.....
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Swingline
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Username: Swingline

Post Number: 417
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 172.165.184.156
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ray, your wickedly humorous prose brought forth a grin when I was reading this thread. Your portrayal of urban fanaticism can be instructive for supporters of urbanism though. Judging lifestyle choices is rarely productive in an actual (or virtual) public forum. Discussion, education and adept political leadership are the only tools that will succeed in rebuilding and restoring an urban built environment in Detroit.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 1905
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.81.62
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 8:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ham_steve..... Brilliant Idea!!!!!!

Anything that will bring back the United Artists Theatre from the brink.... The UA is no worse off than the Capitol was before it was restored into the glorious Detroit Opera House. Of course the Capitol was nearly twice the size of the UA (3367 seats versus 2012 seats for the UA).

Also the Detroit United Artists Theatre was one of only 3 UA movie palaces built in the 1920's. The Chicago UA was razed in 1990, the Los Angeles UA has been a church for many years, and is maintained.

The 3 Spanish Gothic/Art Deco (all 3 theatres were a hybrid of both styles) United Artists theatres were considered by theatre historians to be Detroit architect C. Howard Cranes best work (1927-28) before he built his 2 Siamese-Byzantine Fox masterpieces (1928-29).

The accoustics in the Detroit UA are superb (hence the use as a recording studio by the DSO in the 1980's), and could match any performance venue today. That and the architectural uniqueness of the UA makes it really worth preserving.
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Jerome81
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Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 943
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.142.86.133
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 12:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whats the difference between quicken loans and rock financial?
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Bussey
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Username: Bussey

Post Number: 148
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.212.58.28
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 1:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

same company just quicken is online based and rock is empirically based.

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