  Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 53 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 68.251.67.116 |
How tall was the Statler? I ask this in response to many of the rumors that Dan Gilbert may be interested in the Statler site for Rock Financial; how tall would should the building be to make it an appropriate fit for Grand Circus Park. Any insight into this would be helpful. I, personally, would not be a fan of some monolith, (50 story) but a sensible building that makes good use of the site, such as possibly equivalent to the Statler height. I would not be apposed to them taking control of the Tuller site to develop that as well; maybe not as HQ, but possibly residential ect……. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 45 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
I would think something in the 20-30 story range would fit well there. That should house Q.L. and leave some office space for other tenants as well. Maybe if the market warrants, make it 35-45 floors and include some condos...but I'd rather see the Broderick finished than a new building have condos right next door basically. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8299 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.54.69.119 |
Anything there would be better than a gravel pit like the Tuller site. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 3827 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
Come Rock Financial. Move away from your Southfield HQ. Come to build your tall skyscraper in Downtown Detroit. | ||
Detroitkev Member Username: Detroitkev Post Number: 49 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 70.88.123.166 |
If they build on the Statler sight, I think it will be similar in size to the Compuware building...15-17 stories. I think that was about the height of the Statler. And, if they do build on the Statler, the Tuller site will likely be a huge parking structure...keep in mind that we will need parking for 2,000-3,000 cars. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3415 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 192.220.139.23 |
Statler hotel, George B. Post, 1914, 17 stories. Later, called Statler Hilton, a premier downtown property for generations. jjaba, sipping an exotic drink at Trader Vics. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 613 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Detroitkev, i have a little bit different of an opinion on that. Compuware has about 3,000 people in its HQ, whereas if Rock were to consolidate it would be about 6,000 I believe. Not only that, but the Compuware HQ are on a much bigger plot of land than the Statler site, which would force a Rock HQ to build higher up. So, I woudl expect more of a "skyscraper" fit rather than the compuware complex. I could see a smaller, toned down version of Comerica Tower there, something ranging between 20-30 stories. And about parking....I am sure an agreement would be in place to tunnel and lease parking from the city's underground garage below GCP...but, yes, more parking would surely be necessary | ||
Detroitkev Member Username: Detroitkev Post Number: 50 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 70.88.123.166 |
Are you sure the Compuware site is larger than the Statler site...looks can be deceiving in an empty plot of land. Also, Compuware never built out on the site...if they filled in the back of the building, they could accomodate a total of 5,500 employees I believe. I keep hearing that Rock is hiring 200 employees a month, but friends I know that work there say that while 200 employees are being hired, 150 are leaving. Using that logic, they are only really adding 50 employees per month or 600 per year. Also, the headcount will be greatly affected by rising interest rates. So, if 1800 are added in the next 3 or 4 years, the total headcount is 5,300 employees, and not all will be based in Detroit. They will need to have some kind of suburban presence for their suburban customers. Unless I am wrong in the employee headcount figures, I see the following taking place: A headquarters being built to accomodate up to 5,000 employees, and a mammoth parking structure that will likely knock out the United Artist building. Too bad that we have the mentality of needing to park right next to the building, and no mass transit to reduce the need to tear down the United Artist. As far as height is concerned...do you really want a building of 30 stories to be over Grand Circus Park...most buildings (aside from the broderick) are in the 15-20 story range. | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 854 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.125.129 |
But is your hair perfect? | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 615 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
If I remember correctly, someone here did research on the 2 sites, and in fact the Statler site was a good size smaller than the way compuware built the building, or because of the surrounding buildings/people mover, a new building on the statler site would have to be shaped differently, which would cause it to be smaller. And about the size...if done right, a 30 sotry building will not be too imposing. And it would be neat to see the broderick and the rock hq as the anchors of the south side of GCP, imo. Anyway, I think that it would be not a bad thing for a new large builgdin to make a dent in the skyline, something that other sites may soon follow after that.. | ||
Detroitkev Member Username: Detroitkev Post Number: 51 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 70.88.123.166 |
As an additional note, I understand the desire to have taller buildings in Detroit, but the economics aren't there to support it...If we build another Comerica Tower, we will have a full block of parking structures to go along with it (much like the 2 parking structures backing up to Comerica Tower). I'd rather build smaller buildings with more manageable parking options that fill in the CBD (of course the parking structures must have ground floor retail). I'd rather void the CBD of parking lots before worrying about building skyscrapers. And the thought that Detroit is on a verge of exploding in growth so we need to save land for that growth is off base. There is plenty of land within the city to accomodate more residents & companies. Yes, it won't be as dense, but it doesn't mean that smaller buildings cannot be replaced with larger buildings in the future to increase the density. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 616 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Oh, I know land is available...upwards of 90,000 vacant lots, and thousands of others filled with dilapidated buildings that could be reused as part of new development... I think something around 20-30 stories would not be too large...especially sicne the building will have one main tenant. Comerica Tower is 47 stories tall, so I am sure this will be smaller... Also, yes additional parking will be needed, but i hope that the underground lot there helps ease the pain there....I wish that Detroit could just connect all of the undergound parking garages, and thereby create enough parking spots for most downtown workers...however thats just my pipedream | ||
Detroitkev Member Username: Detroitkev Post Number: 52 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 70.88.123.166 |
One other thing about the Statler site, the Statler itself I believe was over 400,000 square feet, but if you connect the 2 towers in the back, and build out to Clifford...I think you could easily get close to 1,000,000 square feet (assuming the same height of the Statler). That would be enough room for 4,000-5,000 employees. The lot gets wider as you go to the back of the site, adding square footage. I'm not an expert though, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. My whole point is until we get mass transit in this region, building office towers in this region will put a lot of the older buildings in jeopardy. In the case of the Statler site, building anything too large that adds more than 3,000 employees is going to put the United Artist building at risk of being demolished. I'd rather see more of a corporate campus incorporating the Statler, United Artist building & Tuller Site, with nearby parking. Problem is that all the remaining lots nearby probably would cost a fortune to make a parking structure cost efficient. To build on your idea motorcitymayor...maybe a skinnier tower of 25-30 stories, and a parking garage filling out the rest of the site would be the best option...leaving alone the United Artist. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 618 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
that would probably be the best option if it could be done i think...that way the building would not be too imposing, and it could be donw like compuware, where the garage is attached and looks like it could be an office building. your dead accurate about the mass transit...its holding detroit back in SO many ways | ||
Detroitkev Member Username: Detroitkev Post Number: 53 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 70.88.123.166 |
I believe Comerica Tower is 40 stories...but I could be wrong on that figure too. I remember reading something about it being the largest office building in Michigan at 40 stories...the second largest was the Ren Cen towers, each 39 stories. As far as the Grand Circus Garage, doesn't it only hold 500 spaces? Also, the Kales building is leasing already over 100 of those spaces, and the Broderick & Whitney will likely need spaces if they were to convert to condos. So, Rock using the underground garage, could impact the reuse of those other projects. I am all for underground parking...if fact I wish everything was required to be underground. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 619 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Hmm...i think in terms of height, it goes like this... Ren Cen Main tower: 73 Comerica Tower: 47 Penobscot: 44 Ren Cen towers: 39 | ||
Detroitkev Member Username: Detroitkev Post Number: 54 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 70.88.123.166 |
Actually, the fact that we have adjacent land that is underutilized & vacant is a good reason why we may not see higher density development. If the United Artist, and Tuller sites were occupied, maybe we would see a taller office tower & parking garage all on one site. The fact that the illitch family & the city are marketing both sites as a package deal scares me...nothing would be better than saving the United Artist building, and somehow re-creating a new theatre in the building that can further enhance our entertainment district. The acoustics were amazing in the original theatre. Also, the office tower of the United Artist would be cool as residential...although I'm not sure what the feasibility of that is. | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 620 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
Yea...it seems as if most here think that the UA building will be tore down for a new development whenever it does occur. Personally, I wouldnt mind putting a new building on the site, although it would have to be architecture that blends in with the surroundings. The history of the UA is great, but the building to me isnt one of my favorites For Reference: 1.Marriott Renaissance C.. [General Motors Renaiss..] 16 221 m 73 1977 2. Comerica Tower 13 189 m 43 1993 3. Penobscot Building [Penobscot Block] 18 172 m 47 1928 4. Renaissance Center 400.. [General Motors Renaiss..] 2 159 m 39 1977 5. Renaissance Center 100.. [General Motors Renaiss..] 1 159 m 39 1977 6. Renaissance Center 200.. [General Motors Renaiss..] 1 159 m 39 1977 7. Renaissance Center 300.. [General Motors Renaiss..] 1 159 m 39 1977 8. Guardian Building 19 151 m 40 1929 9. Book Tower [Book Tower] 25 145 m 38 1926 10. 150 West Jefferson 11 139 m 26 1989 11. Fisher Building 14 135 m 30 1928 http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/c i/bu/sk/li/?id=101037&bt=9&ht= 2&sro=1 | ||
Detroitkev Member Username: Detroitkev Post Number: 55 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 70.88.123.166 |
The statler wasn't one of my favorits either, but losing all of our grand architecure that surrounds grand circus park would be a shame. However, if it is the only way to get development to happen on the site, I would support the demolition of the United Artist. The only thing that sucks is that we could have another theatre with perhaps broadway shows to further enhance our theatre district. If marketed correctly, we could have a full fledged theatre district that brings in people from all over the midwest, much like New York does for the east coast & tourists. The potential is there, we already have the second largest theatre district in terms of seats. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3367 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I haven't been following the discussion, but will bring in some numbers for reference. The Statler was 18 stories, and approximately 213 feet to its main roof not including the mechanical penthouses. The Compuware World Headquarters building is 16 stories, and 232 feet in height. The Statler gross square footage was approximately 515,000 square feet, while Compuware's gross square footage is approximately 1,200,000 square feet, which is nearly as much as the 43-story Comerica Tower containing 1,674,708 gross square feet of space (951,324 usuable square feet). Hope this helps in the discussion. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 133 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 148.61.248.170 |
I think for Rock, creating their own landmark building would be best for their image and identity. Having a small looking building, or reusing someone elses building probably wouldn't be best in that respect. Plus it's possible they could be using somewhere other than the Statler, Monroe, and Hudsons blocks. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1907 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.54 |
The United Artists Building isn't much to look at today. But that was because of a hatchet rehab job in the mid 20th century. There used to be arched windows with Corinthian columns along the lower front of the UA. Since the rehab, the new veneer had detatched itself from the Clifford St. side of the building, necessitating the closing of Clifford for many years, due to falling debris. But C. Howard Crane originally built an attractive building that opened in 1928. As for Rock Financial, I would love to see them on the Statler block. Remember the whole block was not taken up by the Statler. The "V" shaped building took up about 3/4 of the side facing Washington, and 1/2 of the side facing Bagley. I think a 20 story building would be enough to be the commanding building on Grand Circus Park (like the Statler was). Anything over 25 stories would absolutely dominate the park. Even though the Broderick is 34 stories, it has such a small footprint that it doesn't dominate the park. Also, the size of the Tuller block is larger than the Statler block. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 959 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.173 |
Map from the 30s: Statler site in purple Tuller site in blue  | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1493 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.213.205.130 |
Or the UA is adaptably reused, providing a place to live for many employees. Thanks LMich for the detail numbers, I was going to give some google-earth informed estimates, but that is much better. From a design standpoint, I would prefer not to see anything any taller than the Statler on the Statler site. The Tuller site, on the other hand, might benefit from a taller building. I say this even though the step down from Broderick to Whitney to Statler to Tuller was cool (from pics). A bigger and more massive a Statler site building is, the more of the sunlight that will be blocked from the west half of GCP in the early afternoon, especially in the fall, spring, and winter. A tall building on the Tuller site won't have this sort of impact. Hopefully whatever gets built on those two sites doesn't put any above ground parking fronting the park. I think the opportunity exists to create a pretty massive undergournd garage that spans underneith Bagley. There are also a large vacant lot just across Clifford and Middle St., as well the massive vacant stretches north-northwest of the area. ****Warning, crazy idea follows**** 1. The People mover currently covers up the 3 most important blocks surrounding GCP. 2. It also doesn't serve the Fox and Stadium as well as it might. 3. There is a demand for more parking downtown. 4. The People mover track slightly impacts the parade route. 5. There is a desire to connect the Cass Corridor and Brush park more effectivly to downtown, over the freeway. 6. Park Ave doesn't cross I-75 So, what do we do? We: 1. Route the DPM up Witherell from Broadway, looping around go underneith Woodward (So as to not impact the parade in any way) directly south of I-75. It then rises back up and comes south on Park, reconnecting to the existing DPM track at Bagley. (The current 3 block section of the DPM along the south of GCP is removed.) 2. Stops might be: Adams/Madison (East GCP), Comerica Park, Woodward @ 75, Park Ave, Adams/Bagley (West GCP). 3. Huge parking structures (with retail) are spanned over I-75 on either side of Woodward (above the DPM stop). These garages help reduce road noise to the residents north of them, and help create a contiguous streetwall on Woodward. 4. Park Ave is extended back over 75 as part of this construction. The grade of the service drive in that vicinity might need to be raised to get clearance for the onramp. Now this improves the People Mover's usefulness without a huge expansion. It would be about 2/3 of a mile of new track, with 0.15 miles removed. A large amount of parking is created (not that a lot doesn't already exist there) near Woodward and the freeway that is perfectly accessible to the DPM. You also get the DPM quite a bit closer to some of the major traffic generators (the offices and theaters in the fox and state, Comerica, and to a lesser extent, Ford field). You also make it a 1/4 mile or more closer to Brush Park and Cass Corridor residents. (For example, that cuts out half of the walk from the DPM to the Harbor Light/Edystone.) This might help reduce some of the downtown parking pressure. And it takes the people mover out of the parade equation and makes the streetscape looking south more pleasant and contiguous. It also makes the vacant lots on the east of Woodward from Elizabeth to Montcalm look a lot more attractive. So, if I were king of Rock Financial, this is what I would do: 1. Build an underground parking garage where the Statler and Tuller used to be. I'd probably need to build an above ground garage on the lot at Adams, Middle, and Clifford as well. 2. Renovate the UA building for residential. 3. Restore the Theatre (of course). 4. Corridinate with Oylmpia to reroute the DPM and construct a bunch of parking at the northern frige. 5. Put my flagship headquarters on the Tuller lot, with a decent sized tower and flexible, porious ground floor facade. 6. Phase II of the big construction is a building on the Statler site, maybe spec office, maybe Rock needs it, maybe some of it is extended stay hotel or high end residential. But the ground floor consists of great retail spaces, including a Hoop City Grill and a small department or anchor store that fits in with the Washington Blvd vision. But than again, if I where king of Rock financial, I might want to be on the Hudson's block, the Monroe block, or the vacant block just north of the county building. Damn...that was long winded... | ||
Matt_the_deuce Member Username: Matt_the_deuce Post Number: 579 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.248.252 |
I also think the Statler site building shouldn't be too tall. Not only a step down affect from Broderick-Whitney-Statler, but you can really see a nice step down from The Book to Trolly Plaza and hopefully to an appropriately sized Statler site building. I'm getting used to the view "up the ramp" on the west side of Washington Blvd. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3376 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I really don't think we have to worry about anyone building "too tall" in downtown, right now.  I think downtown is still quite a few years away from having spots valuable enough to support a company(ies) building true skyscrapers. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 548 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.212.169.194 |
Rock Financial would look good in the David Whitney Building. | ||
Matt_the_deuce Member Username: Matt_the_deuce Post Number: 580 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.248.252 |
True enough... BTW - Jsmyers is the the first one to mention the Monroe block. How does it compare sizewise to the Statler and Tuller? to google earth I go... | ||
Matt_the_deuce Member Username: Matt_the_deuce Post Number: 581 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.248.252 |
True enough Lmich... Also looking at the size of Hudsons block. | ||
Matt_the_deuce Member Username: Matt_the_deuce Post Number: 582 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.248.252 |
It looks like the Hudsons block is bigger than both the Statler and Tuller - but not if they were combined. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1908 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.254 |
I like your people mover reconfiguration Jsmyers! And speaking of people mover stations.... I think that the proverbial carrot for Rock/Quicken for the Statler site would be to add a 14th People Mover station to Bagley Ave where it starts curving back toward the Time Sq. station. I think that this curve would be a great area for the people mover station. It would be of benefit to the Statler, Tuller/UA and Michigan Bldg. blocks. They could even make it similar to the station at Millender Center, make it go in and out of a corner of the Rock Financial Tower (in the SW corner of the Statler block). | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3418 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Wow, something out of Broadacre City, plans of Frank Lloyd Wright. Detroit, combining transit with architecture. What a novel 19th Century urban idea. jjaba. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1909 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.254 |
Thinking about a design for a building on the Statler site, I think it would look nicer if it was sorta like the Book Bldg &Tower or the Fisher Bldg. (with lowrise and highrise sections), rather than the former Statler or Compuware (all one height). And of course the tower section should be along GCP. | ||
Rust Member Username: Rust Post Number: 128 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 64.118.136.130 |
Brilliant idea Jsmyers and everyone else!!! Some very interesting design proposals and ideas. I am most impressed! If we (really Lowell) were able to get Tony Pieroni onto the threads about the Michigan Theatre we should be able to get Dan Gilbert and David Hall online to add their comments concerns and thoughts. I know this is probably wishful thinking but what the heck! There are certainly some great ideas here that may be beneficial to them. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8304 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.53.99.206 |
Rust Tony Pironi only came on the board to clear his name due to salicious remarks made here. Should we disparage Dan Gilbert and David Hall to do the same? | ||
Rust Member Username: Rust Post Number: 129 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 64.118.136.130 |
Good ideas are worth their weight in Gold. I am just saying it might be beneficial for them to read some of the thoughts and ideas. | ||
Dan Member Username: Dan Post Number: 1187 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.47.194.247 |
I questions whether Rock is interested in the Statler site. I would think they would want to be where the action is, in C-Mart, either in the Redico Hudson block development, or on the Monroe block. I would like to see a residential tower with ground floor retail on the Statler site. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3381 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Dan, Rock said that they are interested in a Grand Circus Park location, which would either point at the Statler or Tuller site if they are looking to build anew. | ||
Realitycheck Member Username: Realitycheck Post Number: 285 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 68.41.173.240 |
To complement the numbers from LMichigan and that spiffy map from Hornwrecker, here's another reference point for the 18-story Statler:  |
