  Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2379 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.58.120 |
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Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 469 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
Beautiful! | ||
Jdkeepsmiling Member Username: Jdkeepsmiling Post Number: 68 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.216.100.91 |
sweeeet...Americans being Americans...  | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 470 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
Not one tax dollar spent on it because it's just that important. It's remarkable that some would claim it "patriotic" to curtail such rights. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 2948 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.219.21.83 |
lowell, I must have been within yards of you. While a small group, the itensity was there. I watched as the cops tried to see the permits for the march as they were "not notified". Hopefully, this march as well as all the demonstrations across the country and the world may make an impact on this administration, although I doubt it. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3351 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I love the smell of of a good protest in the morning, and watching what is left of our democracy, at work. I wish I could have made it down. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1628 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Jimaz, where, either on these threads or elsewhere, do you have any evidence "that some would claim it "patriotic" to curtail such rights"? Lmich, could you list a few rights that you, personally, have lost as you state "what is left of our democracy". What exactly has been taken away from you, please? | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 827 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.119.228 |
Ooo, a little defensive, are we? | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 542 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.61.98.175 |
A lovely day, a great group of people. A good friend's nephew shipped off to Baghdad yesterday morning. I was glad the march ended at Central United Methodist so I could slip into the sanctuary and say a prayer for him and for his frightened family. Karl, have another sip of Kool-Aid, willya? It must be depressing to be so wrong all the time. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1629 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Hi ORF! No, I stayed home with the vast majority of Americans, and I prayed for your friend's nephew. Not depressed, not wrong, and not sippin' the Kool-Aid! So you're pro-life on the war, huh? Nice to see you're coming around, I knew there was hope for ya! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 318 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
A lot more would have participated in the protest demonstration if there had been better mass transit than the bus mass transit system. Still, some made the ultimate sacrifice and braved the God-awful 40 degree weather. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 828 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.119.228 |
Livernois, what school educated you to write a sentence like that? I really want to know, so I can use it as a cautionary tale .. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 829 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.119.228 |
Hey Livernois and Karl ...here's some songs you can sing at your next Republican protest: http://folksongsofthefarrightw ing.cf.huffingtonpost.com/ | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 132 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.229.108.10 |
I went to the demo. in Northville yesterday. About 200 people of all ages there including a few vets. One guy just back from Iraq spoke. A lot of yuppies driving by honked in support. Only about 12 Bush supporters turned out and they all seemed to be teenage boys. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 418 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.248.5.189 |
Great line Livernois! | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 830 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.119.228 |
Irish mafia is here -- are all the Young Republicans accounted for? | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 419 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.248.5.189 |
Almost as many of us here as showed up for your rally Pffft. Except we managed to get something productive done yesterday. Hope you got a little sun during your outing. by the way...not that young of a Republican. Thanks. | ||
Dhugger Member Username: Dhugger Post Number: 25 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 66.167.58.120 |
I marched in Washington 3 years ago and Saturday March 18th too. I also PRAY EVERY DAY for the people of Iraq, our fighting troops, the 2,300 dead U.S. soldiers and their families. Do not call me unpatriotic or lacking in Christian faith. The bush administration went to war by lying to the American people about weapons of mass distruction. Odd that we do not see the flag drapped coffins or soldiers with missing limbs on the television news. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 420 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.248.5.189 |
dhugger, how about we just call you delusional, misinformed, unhelpful to our troops, unhelpful to the war on terror and a propoganda tool for the enemy? | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 474 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
Just heard the latest fad is to refer to dubya as "George of the Bungle," I presume after the cartoon George of the Jungle. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 831 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.119.228 |
Irish, A majority of the American people -- 57% last I checked -- now believe starting the war in Iraq was a mistake. You're way out of the mainstream on this one. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 379 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Getting old like me is a bad news/good news kind of thing. The bad news is you suddenly realize you're not going to change the world. The good news is you don't give a shit. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 544 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.61.98.175 |
That's not exactly something to brag about Ray. "The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality" - Dante | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1631 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Dhugger, the reason we do not see the flag drapped coffins or soldiers with missing limbs on the television news is the same reason they don't show babies that have been dismembered as they are aborted by their mothers. It's a bit too real for most Americans. And the babies aren't even volunteers. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 832 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.119.228 |
That's right Karl, we want to make the war seem like a video game, as if our friends, neighbors, sons and daughters aren't being killed in the thousands, like it's a neat little game Halliburton is playing. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1632 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Pffft - let's see, it's Sunday, so would it be the mimosas having a profound effect on your thought process today? | ||
Mcpd1300 Member Username: Mcpd1300 Post Number: 80 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.42.175.57 |
Wow, I'm surprised that it took Karl that long to hijack the thread to his anti-choice rhetoric... Great pics, Lowell, of the pro-peace demonstration... | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 505 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 204.128.192.8 |
Get a job hippies! No seriously, I fully support the anti-war effort. If not in body, in mind. I thank all who showed up to protest this unjust and unwarranted travesty. Keep up the good fight. | ||
Hardhat Member Username: Hardhat Post Number: 111 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.208.117.244 |
"Dhugger, the reason we do not see the flag drapped coffins or soldiers with missing limbs on the television news is the same reason they don't show babies that have been dismembered as they are aborted by their mothers. It's a bit too real for most Americans. And the babies aren't even volunteers." - Karl The (lack of) logic behind that post is mind-boggling. Of course the real reason we're not seeing more flag-draped coffins and veterans with arms and legs blown off is that our president thinks that would be "too real" for most Americans, and would lead to even lower polling numbers. The Bush Administration isn't limiting access to that kind of video as a public service to Americans. It's politics and polling, pure and simple, and to claim otherwise flies in the face of common sense. Bush obviously didn't learn much from Vietnam, because he went to Iraq, but he's not completely stupid: he did learn that showing footage of coffins of American soldiers on the CBS Evening News every night didn't help the war effort then, and wouldn't help it today. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1633 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Thank you, Hardhat, for equating my logic to that of our great President - I consider it an honor. | ||
Czar Member Username: Czar Post Number: 2974 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 72.49.166.173 |
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03 /19/opinion/19eaton.html?_r=1& oref=slogin DURING World War II, American soldiers en route to Britain before D-Day were given a pamphlet on how to behave while awaiting the invasion. The most important quote in it was this: "It is impolite to criticize your host; it is militarily stupid to criticize your allies." By that rule, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is not competent to lead our armed forces. First, his failure to build coalitions with our allies from what he dismissively called "old Europe" has imposed far greater demands and risks on our soldiers in Iraq than necessary. Second, he alienated his allies in our own military, ignoring the advice of seasoned officers and denying subordinates any chance for input. In sum, he has shown himself incompetent strategically, operationally and tactically, and is far more than anyone else responsible for what has happened to our important mission in Iraq. Mr. Rumsfeld must step down. In the five years Mr. Rumsfeld has presided over the Pentagon, I have seen a climate of groupthink become dominant and a growing reluctance by experienced military men and civilians to challenge the notions of the senior leadership. I thought we had a glimmer of hope last November when Gen. Peter Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, faced off with Mr. Rumsfeld on the question of how our soldiers should react if they witnessed illegal treatment of prisoners by Iraqi authorities. (General Pace's view was that our soldiers should intervene, while Mr. Rumsfeld's position was that they should simply report the incident to superiors.) Unfortunately, the general subsequently backed down and supported the secretary's call to have the rules clarified, giving the impression that our senior man in uniform is just as intimidated by Secretary Rumsfeld as was his predecessor, Gen. Richard Myers. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 545 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.61.98.175 |
How could Bush learn anything from Vietnam? He was coked out and hiding. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3353 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Something else to add... I fully supported president Bush in his war to depose the illegtimate Taliban 'government' in Afghanistan. They were found to be directly funding Islamic extremist terrorists, and coupled with the fact that they were illegitimate, and brutal to their own people, it was more than enough to overthrow them. Afghanistan was the right war, at the right place, at the right time; an excellent start to battling violent, Islamic fundamentalism on the military/physical front. Invading and occuping Iraq, on the other hand, was probably the VERY worst thing we could have done with this War on Terrorism. It was like we took a big step forward, and a very needed step (Afghanistan), and then we took two large steps backwards (Iraq). I didn't support the idea of the Iraq invasion before, and I don't support it know, and I won't ever support it. Even our very best outcome is not what I'd consider "success." The very best outcome is that the violence ends, and Iraq establishes some sort of democracy. That still wouldn't have been a cause of something so deathly deserving as a full scale military occcupation, and more to the point, a distraction, at best, from the War on Terroism. Imagine if Bush had proposed that as his first "excuse" to go to war (i.e. bringing democracy to Iraq). The American people would have rightly said with force "Hell No." It was ONLY with his crack war machine screaming "imminent threat" that he was able to ram this through with BARELY half the people supporting him from even the start; a war with the hearts and minds of his own people and the Iraqi's already lossed, IMO. The machine was successful in declaring any dissention as "un-American," a dangerous word we've seen used not even 50 years ago. And worst yet, the "walk-all-over-us" Congress bent like a willow in the wind. For all of the wealth of human history, and even our own modern history, this war was a distraction, at best. And, at worst, inflamming moderate Muslims to become fully anti-American, and passive supporters of terrorism. I pray for our troops, everyday, and I'm mad as hell that Bush's war machine has misused our military for this deathly costly boondoggle. Bush doesn't care about our troops well-being, or our military, and that has come out in Donald Rumsfield's terrible attitude of "let them eat cake." It's a game to him, using the children of America as pawns for this silly and completely unnecessary war game. I will never apologize for my opposition to this superfluous blood bath and illegitimate war. | ||
Jimg Member Username: Jimg Post Number: 582 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Karl, I'm glad to read you are a big pro-choice guy when it comes to the war in Iraq. Bush ll chose to invade Iraq to....keep us safe from Terrorism, right? To rid the world of Saddam, give the Iraqi's democracy instead of a faith-based leadership. Wait a minute - doesn't Bush ll claim to have a faith-based presidency? In whom, or what, does he have faith? How does accepting American casualties (not to mention Iraqi civilian casualities) demonstate any sense of Godliness? Oh, wait I forgot - Bush ll is against killing innocent unborn humans. Killing those already born don't seem to upset him as much. This is faith-based leadership? Spending friggin' BILLIONS of dollars in Iraq? I can't conmprehend one billion, let alone a hundred. Could this money not be better spent in our country? Put another way, Karl, do you honestly feel safer and more secure now that Iraq appears to be on the verge of civil war? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1634 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
ORF - You have your presidents mixed up. During that era, Clinton was toked out and hiding, but somehow Bush was able to continually pass his aviation physicals, including drug tests, that allowed him to use his skills to pilot a military aircraft whose value exceeded $25M. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 546 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.212.169.194 |
2,314 US deaths 17,124 US wounded What % of Iraqis want us there? | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 546 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.61.98.175 |
Clinton was in plain sight at Oxford. Bush was an ADMITTED DRUNK AND DRUG ADDICT who never finished his tour of duty. A deserter and a chickenhawk. Daddy bought him his free passes. George Bush is a coward, a liar, a dry drunk, a thief and a murderer. I am not a Clinton supporter. But I wish to god someone would give George Bush a blowjob. Maybe he'd do a better job. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1635 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Jimg - yes, I do feel safer. The entire Middle East is under a magnifying glass. As the President said right after 9/11 - either you're for us, or you're against us. By weeding out trouble, it will bother neither us nor Middle East countrymen as it is systematically eliminated. An easy, inexpensive task? Hardly. Made easier by pacifist latter day hippies? No. But as the naysayers before & during WWII have been proven wrong, so will their modern day disciples. Be sure to be honest with your grandchildren, Jimg. Lest you forget, Truman (D) had to make the decision to drop 2 A-bombs, which instantaneously killed 140,000 and a like number from aftereffects. I believe there were at least a couple of civilians who were collateral losses in that "minor scuffle." By this time in Vietnam, several times the current # of casualties were incurred. So I suggest you get over it and enjoy the continued freedom that thousands of volunteers fight for on your sorry behalf. | ||
Dhugger Member Username: Dhugger Post Number: 27 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 66.167.58.120 |
No I do not feel safe...the entire Muslim world now hates us. I want our troops home and the 17,124 US wounded soldiers properly cared for with decent health care. Not this patched system in the Veteren's hospitals. Is it true that the men and women serving our country in the National Guard units are not even getting health care from the V.A. hospitals when they return? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1636 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
ORF, I can only assume by your vulgar comments that this is the reason your husband is not the president. Dhugger, perhaps you noticed before the Iraq war that the "entire Muslim world" was silent on 9/11, terrorism in general, and Islamic fundamentalism in particular. Mosques were open in their disdain for the USA, and it was reported by the Det News that the mosque in Dearborn regularly advocated the overthrow of the US govt - as seen firsthand by the DN reporter. So you think Muslims now hate us more? You've been listening to Michael Moore a bit too much. Our soldiers are being cared for quite sufficiently, and the answer to your last question is no. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 833 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.119.228 |
"Mosques were open in their disdain for the USA, and it was reported by the Det News that the mosque in Dearborn regularly advocated the overthrow of the US govt - as seen firsthand by the DN reporter." I think you mean Debbie Schlussel, the right-wing lawyer/blogger. She was the one who attended the mosque incognito. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1639 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Ah Pfft, because the reporter was "right-wing" she was wrong? And when you attend church/temple/mosque/rock concert/Krogers, do you go non-incognito?? If so, how? BTW, "right-wing" and "lawyer" usually cancel each other out. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 547 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.61.98.175 |
Debbie Schlussel is not a reporter. She's not a blonde and that's not even her nose. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 322 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Debbie Schlussel | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 834 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
Those angry right-wing blondes make your heart go pitty-pat, don't they? | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 548 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.61.98.175 |
Also not her lips. She's the bionic Republican! And even a little meaner (if you can imagine such a thing) and more racist than your average Republitroid. brrrrrrrrrr. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1641 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Still, she's kinder & far less racist than the most rightwing pro-choice Democrat - who is a REAL BRRRRRRRR - Is there anything colder than killin' your own kid? | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 549 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.61.98.175 |
When the arguments run out, KKKarl trots out fetuses and WWII. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 325 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Methinks somebody has hair, nose, and lips envies... Brains envy probably is next... | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1642 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
No, when ORF ignores reality along with the past, Karl trots out the unvarnished truth. ORF, you can run but you can't hide. The Dems have their own active killing machine humming along at the rate of 4,000 "civilians" per day with no signs of stopping - with a disproportionate rate of blacks & Jews. Not that any "rate" is right, though the Dems promote it (today & daily) as good, healthy and correct. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 835 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
"Brains envy" ...Livernois, you really must share with us what school you attended. I need this information ... | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 489 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
Northville, Detroit, and others in Michigan were just praised on http://airamericaradio.com/ for opposing the war. Thank you for your patriotism! (Message edited by Jimaz on March 20, 2006) | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 490 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
Ann Arbor had 1000. Good show! | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 769 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.219.20.26 |
redfordette, I typically appreciate and respect what you have to say but you have to figure how many wars Ray has lived through and how many folks he's known who have been directly affected by those wars... you have to respect that, even if you don't agree with it... And I think it was a joke anyway... | ||
Ilovedetroit Member Username: Ilovedetroit Post Number: 2151 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 69.246.57.75 |
Irish is a facist ignore him. The demonstration was beautiful. We need more of these to wake this country up - there are still too many of us that think it is un-patriotic to question our leaders - we need to question authority. Bush and his gang of idiots are destroying this country. | ||
Dhugger Member Username: Dhugger Post Number: 36 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 66.167.58.120 |
Nose Hair, fake lips, botox, babies, bottle blondes??? My how we digress when the 3rd year is under way ... I thought the 'mission was accomplished' in 2003?  0ct. 29th 2003 President Bush flashes a "thumbs-up" after declaring the end 0f maj0r c0mbat in Iraq as he speaks ab0ard the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Linc0ln 0ff the Calif0rnia c0ast. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1289 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.148.226.17 |
Karl, why are you such a hypocrite with you pro-life stance? You are against abortion but FOR the killing of innocent civilians and unwanted abortion of children via the stress and bombing affecting pregnant mothers in Iraq. I guess you skip over that part of the Bible that says "Love your enemies" and "Love your neighbor". You also seem to skip over the prophets of the OT as well. Funny how fundies get so myopic in their views of right and wrong that it's just two issues: abortion and gay rights. Who cares about the 2,000+ verses on poverty when there are voluminus verses on homosexuality! (Message edited by BVos on March 20, 2006) | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 133 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.229.90.145 |
Dhugger: That pic reminds me of this: http://www.cafepress.com/thewh itehouse/314956 | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1644 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Bvos = clueless. Haven't said much, if anything, on these threads about gay rights or homosexuality. I've been vocal about abortion, the war, the prez and a host of other issues. Hardly myopic. The few times I've mentioned the Bible I'm told to "throw it away", a typical reaction when anyone on the right mentions a biblical reference. However, when the left mentions it (like Bvos does above) the reference is ignored and "OK". But do keep trying, Bvos. Next time you bring up abortion try to mention "the baby" and the 4,000/day that bite the dust thanks to you and your myopic, hypocritical stance. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 836 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
We're all waiting with baited breath to hear how many children of single, unwed mothers you have adopted, Karl. Detail for us the groceries you're buying for them, the rent and the schools you're paying for, the important male discipline you're providing. We'd love to applaud you for your "compassionate" conservatism. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 551 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
I read something great in the Utne Reader yesterday, it's from the book "Democracy's Edge" by Frances Moore Lappé- ...ours is a journey with two competing forces, one pushing democracy forward and one impeding it. In the eyes of our founders, only about a tenth of the population - white, male property owners - were fit for democracy. The rest of us can salute those who were willing to stand up against slavery, to march in the street to declare that even women could be trusted with the vote, and to sit in at lunch counters in Mississipi to secure civil rights for black Americans; and more recently, those wo have fought to end second-class citizenship for gays and lesbians. ...in this spirit of bold humility, I ask us to pay attention. To consciously let go of defeating and false messages that tell us it's all over, or that there's no place for us in this great human drama... | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 553 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
Hey, the moron is on the radio saying that we're winning in Iraq! We're makin' progress, because we got a strategy for victory! Whoo hoo hoo! | ||
Dhugger Member Username: Dhugger Post Number: 37 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 66.167.58.120 |
ORF bravo bravo! In the spirit of those who freed the slaves, suffragettes, and the civil rights activists we must pay it forward with our own deeds. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1291 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.39 |
Karl, I've never taken a pro-abortion stance on this board or in my own personal life. I'm pro-life and always have been. But I also recongnize that war, capital punishment, poverty and numerous other issues are just as much issues of life as abortion and the Bible has lots to say about them. My views are hardly myopic. As for gay rights, this is an issue I'm not totally settled on. I believe as Christians (and I am an Evangelical Christian) we must value the human rights of all people, even if we don't agree with their views. The Sermon on the Mount dealt with this pretty comprehensively. I don't recall the Bible talking about how we will be known by our hate or discrimination. The Bible speaks to Christians gaining ground by speaking and doing love, even those we don't agree with or who persecute us. Next time you claim to speak for God, please try and consider everything He talked about, not just two issues. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1646 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Haha, nice try Pffft & ORF, Dragging out your tired, "woe is me, I need another entitlement/law" arguments won't work anymore. We all have the same rights, privleges and protections under the laws of this great country (well, except for the unborn & their fathers) so get over it. The only ones telling you that "it's all over, or that there's no place for us in this great human drama..." are your peers. I suggest some new, more upbeat friends who've spit out their pacifiers, stopped their whining, climbed out of their entitlement cribs and are taking advantage of all that the USA has to offer. If you are still riding in the back of the bus, it is because you've chosen to sit there. If the job or seat in the college classroom has been taken by an illegal or legal immigrant, it is because they've recognized what this country has to offer, come here with nothing, and have taken the opportunity you've chosen to ignore - in other words, you've handed it to them. Frankly, if you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you've got. Do your fellow citizens a favor and grow up. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 837 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
You're evading my point Karl. Since you want every sexual encounter to end in a child being born, I want to know how you are caring for all the unwanted children already out there. I don't know if you've been following the case of Rickey Holland, the poor 7 year old killed by his adoptive mother. I can barely stand to read the accounts of this poor child. He was born to a 16 year old. I'm for choice, and this 16 year old chose to give birth -- fine. But did Rickey deserve to grow up with nothing, to be fobbed off on criminals who starved and beat him? How is that part of your great plan? Tell me how an abused seven year old is supposed to stop whining and take advantage of "this great country." Once again, what are you doing to care for the great masses of unwanted and abused children we already have? | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 421 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
pffft, Sounds like you have a lot of excuses for killing babies. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 555 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
Forget it, pffft. Nothing but compulsory pregnancy to see here. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1647 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Pfft said: "Since you want every sexual encounter to end in a child being born...." I never said nor implied that. Pfft said: "I'm for choice, and this 16 year old chose to give birth -- fine. But did Rickey deserve to grow up with nothing, to be fobbed off on criminals who starved and beat him?" But I thought abortion was supposed to solve this! "Every child a wanted child" is the mantra of the left. Typical - get your way, then blame the right even further for poverty, crime, abuse, etc. Pfft said: "what are you doing to care for the great masses of unwanted and abused children we already have?" Plenty - but it will never be enough for you, will it? Once again, why are their "unwanted & abused" over 30 years after Roe v Wade was supposed to solve all those problems?? Oh yes, I know - if we know they are going to be poor, unwanted or abused, why then just kill them. Am I finally catching on to your way of thinking, Pfft? But do keep trying. Sooner or later you'll wake up to your absurdities and might even chat with your own pro-life mother. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 838 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
Because, Karl ...and this is something right-wingers will never admit or understand. Because there's such a thing as human error and human wrong, that leads to situations where a 16 year old believes she can take care of a child when she really can't. And there's nobody else to step in, her parents are incapable as well. That's why society must step in, yes, for the innocent born into such situations. Entitlements -- wow! Entitlements are OK when it's going to Halliburton for the war machine, but forget the abused 7 year olds, right Karl? | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 839 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
Oh come on Karl you can do better than that. TELL us what you're doing for the millions of unwanted children out there. The truth is, right-wingers care about the unborn, but once you're born brother, all bets are off, they're gone. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 422 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
pffft, On your way to getting back to the subject of this thread, don't forget to stop off at the adoption agency... | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 840 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
I'll say hi to you in line, Irish. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1648 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Soooo typical of the left: "Give us abortion and that will solve everything." So the taxpayers fund Planned Parenthood, the largest provider of abortion in the world, to the tune of 10's of millions. Then the left says: "oops, that wasn't enough, now solve the rest of our problems with problem kids" Whine, whine, whine - Sorry, the problem isn't the kids who survived the left's killing machine - it's the parents. Remove drugs & alcohol from the equation and watch 80% of the problem vanish. Then ask for entitlement help for the other 20% and you might find a more receptive ear. It's called "personal responsibility" and perhaps you should google the subject sometime. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 841 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
Tell that to Rickey Holland, Karl. Tell me how he needed "personal responsibility." Or is mourning an abused 7 year old considered "whining" in your book? | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 557 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
He wasn't a fetus anymore, Pfft. He was on his own. Whiny, entitlement-seeeking little brat. He probably would have blamed America first and excused terrorism. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1650 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Again, Pfft & ORF show off the idiocy of the left with flashing neon. Children are taught personal responsibility by parentS who love and care for them. His parents, who most likely have already dished themselves a plateful of entitlements, are shunning personal responsbility nonetheless. I understand - As products of the public education system, you have a perfect excuse for your obvious ignorance. But please keep trying. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 560 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
Back on topic, by the great Howard Zinn. Published on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 by the Progressive America's Blinders by Howard Zinn Now that most Americans no longer believe in the war, now that they no longer trust Bush and his Administration, now that the evidence of deception has become overwhelming (so overwhelming that even the major media, always late, have begun to register indignation), we might ask: How come so many people were so easily fooled? The question is important because it might help us understand why Americans—members of the media as well as the ordinary citizen—rushed to declare their support as the President was sending troops halfway around the world to Iraq. A small example of the innocence (or obsequiousness, to be more exact) of the press is the way it reacted to Colin Powell’s presentation in February 2003 to the Security Council, a month before the invasion, a speech which may have set a record for the number of falsehoods told in one talk. In it, Powell confidently rattled off his “evidence”: satellite photographs, audio records, reports from informants, with precise statistics on how many gallons of this and that existed for chemical warfare. The New York Times was breathless with admiration. The Washington Post editorial was titled “Irrefutable” and declared that after Powell’s talk “it is hard to imagine how anyone could doubt that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction.” It seems to me there are two reasons, which go deep into our national culture, and which help explain the vulnerability of the press and of the citizenry to outrageous lies whose consequences bring death to tens of thousands of people. If we can understand those reasons, we can guard ourselves better against being deceived. One is in the dimension of time, that is, an absence of historical perspective. The other is in the dimension of space, that is, an inability to think outside the boundaries of nationalism. We are penned in by the arrogant idea that this country is the center of the universe, exceptionally virtuous, admirable, superior. If we don’t know history, then we are ready meat for carnivorous politicians and the intellectuals and journalists who supply the carving knives. I am not speaking of the history we learned in school, a history subservient to our political leaders, from the much-admired Founding Fathers to the Presidents of recent years. I mean a history which is honest about the past. If we don’t know that history, then any President can stand up to the battery of microphones, declare that we must go to war, and we will have no basis for challenging him. He will say that the nation is in danger, that democracy and liberty are at stake, and that we must therefore send ships and planes to destroy our new enemy, and we will have no reason to disbelieve him. But if we know some history, if we know how many times Presidents have made similar declarations to the country, and how they turned out to be lies, we will not be fooled. Although some of us may pride ourselves that we were never fooled, we still might accept as our civic duty the responsibility to buttress our fellow citizens against the mendacity of our high officials. We would remind whoever we can that President Polk lied to the nation about the reason for going to war with Mexico in 1846. It wasn’t that Mexico “shed American blood upon the American soil,” but that Polk, and the slave-owning aristocracy, coveted half of Mexico. We would point out that President McKinley lied in 1898 about the reason for invading Cuba, saying we wanted to liberate the Cubans from Spanish control, but the truth is that we really wanted Spain out of Cuba so that the island could be open to United Fruit and other American corporations. He also lied about the reasons for our war in the Philippines, claiming we only wanted to “civilize” the Filipinos, while the real reason was to own a valuable piece of real estate in the far Pacific, even if we had to kill hundreds of thousands of Filipinos to accomplish that. President Woodrow Wilson—so often characterized in our history books as an “idealist”—lied about the reasons for entering the First World War, saying it was a war to “make the world safe for democracy,” when it was really a war to make the world safe for the Western imperial powers. Harry Truman lied when he said the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima because it was “a military target.” Everyone lied about Vietnam—Kennedy about the extent of our involvement, Johnson about the Gulf of Tonkin, Nixon about the secret bombing of Cambodia, all of them claiming it was to keep South Vietnam free of communism, but really wanting to keep South Vietnam as an American outpost at the edge of the Asian continent. Reagan lied about the invasion of Grenada, claiming falsely that it was a threat to the United States. The elder Bush lied about the invasion of Panama, leading to the death of thousands of ordinary citizens in that country. And he lied again about the reason for attacking Iraq in 1991—hardly to defend the integrity of Kuwait (can one imagine Bush heartstricken over Iraq’s taking of Kuwait?), rather to assert U.S. power in the oil-rich Middle East. Given the overwhelming record of lies told to justify wars, how could anyone listening to the younger Bush believe him as he laid out the reasons for invading Iraq? Would we not instinctively rebel against the sacrifice of lives for oil? A careful reading of history might give us another safeguard against being deceived. It would make clear that there has always been, and is today, a profound conflict of interest between the government and the people of the United States. This thought startles most people, because it goes against everything we have been taught. We have been led to believe that, from the beginning, as our Founding Fathers put it in the Preamble to the Constitution, it was “we the people” who established the new government after the Revolution. When the eminent historian Charles Beard suggested, a hundred years ago, that the Constitution represented not the working people, not the slaves, but the slaveholders, the merchants, the bondholders, he became the object of an indignant editorial in The New York Times. Our culture demands, in its very language, that we accept a commonality of interest binding all of us to one another. We mustn’t talk about classes. Only Marxists do that, although James Madison, “Father of the Constitution,” said, thirty years before Marx was born that there was an inevitable conflict in society between those who had property and those who did not. Our present leaders are not so candid. They bombard us with phrases like “national interest,” “national security,” and “national defense” as if all of these concepts applied equally to all of us, colored or white, rich or poor, as if General Motors and Halliburton have the same interests as the rest of us, as if George Bush has the same interest as the young man or woman he sends to war. Surely, in the history of lies told to the population, this is the biggest lie. In the history of secrets, withheld from the American people, this is the biggest secret: that there are classes with different interests in this country. To ignore that—not to know that the history of our country is a history of slaveowner against slave, landlord against tenant, corporation against worker, rich against poor—is to render us helpless before all the lesser lies told to us by people in power. If we as citizens start out with an understanding that these people up there—the President, the Congress, the Supreme Court, all those institutions pretending to be “checks and balances”—do not have our interests at heart, we are on a course towards the truth. Not to know that is to make us helpless before determined liars. The deeply ingrained belief—no, not from birth but from the educational system and from our culture in general—that the United States is an especially virtuous nation makes us especially vulnerable to government deception. It starts early, in the first grade, when we are compelled to “pledge allegiance” (before we even know what that means), forced to proclaim that we are a nation with “liberty and justice for all.” And then come the countless ceremonies, whether at the ballpark or elsewhere, where we are expected to stand and bow our heads during the singing of the “Star-Spangled Banner,” announcing that we are “the land of the free and the home of the brave.” There is also the unofficial national anthem “God Bless America,” and you are looked on with suspicion if you ask why we would expect God to single out this one nation—just 5 percent of the world’s population—for his or her blessing. If your starting point for evaluating the world around you is the firm belief that this nation is somehow endowed by Providence with unique qualities that make it morally superior to every other nation on Earth, then you are not likely to question the President when he says we are sending our troops here or there, or bombing this or that, in order to spread our values—democracy, liberty, and let’s not forget free enterprise—to some God-forsaken (literally) place in the world. It becomes necessary then, if we are going to protect ourselves and our fellow citizens against policies that will be disastrous not only for other people but for Americans too, that we face some facts that disturb the idea of a uniquely virtuous nation. These facts are embarrassing, but must be faced if we are to be honest. We must face our long history of ethnic cleansing, in which millions of Indians were driven off their land by means of massacres and forced evacuations. And our long history, still not behind us, of slavery, segregation, and racism. We must face our record of imperial conquest, in the Caribbean and in the Pacific, our shameful wars against small countries a tenth our size: Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq. And the lingering memory of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It is not a history of which we can be proud. Our leaders have taken it for granted, and planted that belief in the minds of many people, that we are entitled, because of our moral superiority, to dominate the world. At the end of World War II, Henry Luce, with an arrogance appropriate to the owner of Time, Life, and Fortune, pronounced this “the American century,” saying that victory in the war gave the United States the right “to exert upon the world the full impact of our influence, for such purposes as we see fit and by such means as we see fit.” Both the Republican and Democratic parties have embraced this notion. George Bush, in his Inaugural Address on January 20, 2005, said that spreading liberty around the world was “the calling of our time.” Years before that, in 1993, President Bill Clinton, speaking at a West Point commencement, declared: “The values you learned here . . . will be able to spread throughout this country and throughout the world and give other people the opportunity to live as you have lived, to fulfill your God-given capacities.” What is the idea of our moral superiority based on? Surely not on our behavior toward people in other parts of the world. Is it based on how well people in the United States live? The World Health Organization in 2000 ranked countries in terms of overall health performance, and the United States was thirty-seventh on the list, though it spends more per capita for health care than any other nation. One of five children in this, the richest country in the world, is born in poverty. There are more than forty countries that have better records on infant mortality. Cuba does better. And there is a sure sign of sickness in society when we lead the world in the number of people in prison—more than two million. A more honest estimate of ourselves as a nation would prepare us all for the next barrage of lies that will accompany the next proposal to inflict our power on some other part of the world. It might also inspire us to create a different history for ourselves, by taking our country away from the liars and killers who govern it, and by rejecting nationalist arrogance, so that we can join the rest of the human race in the common cause of peace and justice | ||
Unclefrank Member Username: Unclefrank Post Number: 4 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 192.85.50.1 |
The usual crowd of old hippies and young slackers. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1651 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
LOL & well said, Unclefrank! | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 561 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
Wow! You were there, Uncle Frank? How do you know they were old hippies and young slackers? The people I knew there were hard working American citizens, with jobs. This includes the students that were there, all the ones I knew have jobs, the members of the clergy who marched, and all the other activists who strive for a better world on their own time, after work is done. But maybe you're like Bill Frist, able to diagnose and recognize based on some photos. (he was wrong of course, but then so is UncleFrank) | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 423 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
So Fordette's argument is that all wars are bad and that we should just stay at home and hope for the best...at least its simple to understand. "Hello, Germany, we were just kidding, you can have Europe back." | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1652 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Irish, you hit the nail on the head - that's exactly what ORF, member of the OHAYS (Old Hippies And Young Slackers - thanks again Unclefrank!) thinks. As for the "protests", it appears that the mainstream media neglected to report that in many cities, the Pro-Freedom crowds were larger than the OHAYS, who woulda thunk? It really didn't matter in Detroit, since it appears there was no media coverage, the city is largely lib & Dem, and did anyone else other than the OHAYS show up? | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 562 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
Lets see, the clergy, young students, working folk and the mainstream press were there, no "Kill Iraqi Citizens and American Soldiers" protesters were present. Congratulations Irish Mafia! You win todays Godwins Rule of Useless Nazi Anologies Award! Way to get off topic! | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 1653 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Thanks, ORF - "the clergy...working folk...mainstream press" = Old hippies and "Young students" = young slackers Perfect fit. OHAYS. | ||
Dhugger Member Username: Dhugger Post Number: 39 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 66.167.58.120 |
Several members of my family attended rallies Sat. & Sun. marching to bring our troops home. We are all gainfully employed. Come to think of it none of us have ever been on the dole. Oh I must be a slacker because I chose to use my days off work to express FREE SPEECH. ORF reading Howard Zinn? Now I know you are 3-d for sure...this is thick copy to digest. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 1804 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.149.52 |
I got to the party late. Saw a few friends there, like a middle aged white collar couple who work for Daimler Chrysler. Short hair. Jobs. Perhaps the OHAYs were slipped off to Syria by the Russians just before my arrival, you know, like the WMD. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2389 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.241.37.140 |
I have heard of pro-war protests and seen some reports but, compared to the anti-war protests, they were extremely few and lightly attended. There clearly is no groundswell of support for the disaster in Iraq. Polls show it as much as rallies for and against. Those of us with the vantage point of another war based on lies, Viet Nam, remember that protests at a similar point were even smaller, less frequent and scoffed at as irrelevant. Red-baiting in that post McCarthy era was far more vicious and attempts to marginalize the protests as unpatriotic were incessant. That soon changed and huge protests followed. Much of that was fueled by the draft which reached into the secure enclaves of the middle class and the children of Congress, who are untouched by this war. The pain of this war is largely isolated to the divisional garrison towns of our soldiers, like Fayetteville, NC. Many of these small communities have lost many more than the entire state of Michigan. With multiple combat deployments under their belts and seeming endless prospects of more, our military and national guards, while not broken, is certainly not in its best spirits. This is showing up in recruitment shortages and resignations. Protest is increasingly growing and most significant within that community. | ||
Unclefrank Member Username: Unclefrank Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 192.85.50.2 |
Anyone who is serving enlisted while the war was in progress. Bring the soldiers home to do what? These are professionals. Wonder how many of these protesters are vets? Not very many I'll bet. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2390 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.241.37.140 |
"Bring the soldiers home to do what?" How about rebuilding New Orleans or even Detroit? "Anyone who is serving enlisted while the war was in progress." Not so. In fact many who enlisted before this war was started by Bush find their tours of active duty extended by the fine print in their contracts. | ||
Iseries840 Member Username: Iseries840 Post Number: 160 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 12.31.43.176 |
"Bring the soldiers home to do what?" They should be home training for a legitimate millitary operation. They should be used to "finish" wars, not to start them. | ||
Unclefrank Member Username: Unclefrank Post Number: 6 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.192.124.221 |
Lowell, you know nothing about the military. Did you ever serve? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 329 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Maybe Lowell confuses the military with the Army Corps of Engineers or the Salvation Army... | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 136 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.229.12.155 |
An all vets march: http://www.thenation.com/doc/2 0060403/parenti | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 424 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
Quote: "Congratulations Irish Mafia! You win todays Godwins Rule of Useless Nazi Anologies Award! Way to get off topic!" Actuallly, It is 100% on topic. What, if anything, justifies military action in your mind?....your endless whining about the war without any proposed alternatives to addressing the threat of terrorism and the growing extremist muslim threat is absurd. Back up your gibberish with something (at least Lowell proposed turning the military into the domestic peace corp...not that I would recommend it...especially for fighting terrorism). So, Fordette, why was WWII justified..or was it? Is any war justified or ahould we as a nation take the approach of appeasement and hope for the best? What is it? | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 498 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
Thanks, Pam. This might be a good time to again mention the book "Johnny Got His Gun," by Dalton Trumbo. Anyone who can argue in favor of war after reading that book should be listened to very closely. They're likely to have thought over the issue very carefully. (Message edited by Jimaz on March 21, 2006) | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 425 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
Quote: no "Kill Iraqi Citizens and American Soldiers" protesters were present. Fordette: Iraqi Citizens and American Soldiers are being killed by our enemy...the one that you don't recognize as existing... Oh I'm sorry that would be THE MAJORITY OF IRAQIES WHO HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID THAT THEY WANT US THERE....not the imaginery ones that live inside your head hello? is there anybody in there | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 331 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"According to the IVAW, the invasion and occupation of Iraq could cost $2.65 trillion. Other numbers mentioned along the march were the more than 2,400 American troops and 100,000 Iraqis killed." Yawn! Notice the IVAW $2.65 trillion number. Those "vets" got the war spending down to three significant figures. Also the more than...100,000 Iraqis killed. A nice round, and most probably, nicely contrived, number. More revisionism yet to come, I'll bet. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on March 21, 2006) | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 426 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
"Hey, the moron is on the radio saying that we're winning in Iraq! We're makin' progress, because we got a strategy for victory! Whoo hoo hoo!" Interesting, that most of the people in the country voted for the guy you like to call names about ...twice!... how's your election campaign coming Fordette? | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 842 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
You know, when William F. Buckley turns against a war, when he calls it ill-conceived and hopeless, and we should withdraw ...shoot, you know it's bad. You know the vast majority have washed their hands of Iraq, all but a slim, lunatic fringe. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 427 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
Lest Fordette think that I was picking solely on him/her whatever.... "Irish is a facist ignore him." Now that wasn't nice I lovedetroit...love isn't about name calling and intolerance...it is about reaching out and understanding. In that light, let me help you understand: The fascists were bad guys that Americans went over to Europe and defeated. We were not invited by the Italian government because, well, they were the fascists that we took out. Very similar to the terrorists in Iraq that you want us to leave the country to...better get your analogies thought through before the next name calling game. Don't take it personally. ILove You Detroit! | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 428 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
Pffft, Your still reaching......ooops too far! Let me help you with opinion from one of your bretheren on the left: AT WAR The Stone Face of Zarqawi Iraq is no "distraction" from al Qaeda. BY CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS Tuesday, March 21, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST In February 2004, our Kurdish comrades in northern Iraq intercepted a courier who was bearing a long message from Abu Musab al-Zarqawi to his religious guru Osama bin Laden. The letter contained a deranged analysis of the motives of the coalition intervention ("to create the State of Greater Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates" and "accelerate the emergence of the Messiah"), but also a lethally ingenious scheme to combat it. After a lengthy and hate-filled diatribe against what he considers the vile heresy of Shiism, Zarqawi wrote of Iraq's largest confessional group that: "These in our opinion are the key to change. I mean that targeting and hitting them in their religious, political and military depth will provoke them to show the Sunnis their rabies . . . and bare the teeth of the hidden rancor working in their breasts. If we succeed in dragging them into the arena of sectarian war, it will become possible to awaken the inattentive Sunnis as they feel imminent danger." Some of us wrote about this at the time, to warn of the sheer evil that was about to be unleashed. Knowing that their own position was a tenuous one (a fact fully admitted by Zarqawi in his report) the cadres of "al Qaeda in Mesopotamia" understood that their main chance was the deliberate stoking of a civil war. And, now that this threat has become more imminent and menacing, it is somehow blamed on the Bush administration. "Civil war" has replaced "the insurgency" as the proof that the war is "unwinnable." But in plain truth, the "civil war" is and always was the chief tactic of the "insurgency." Since February 2004, there have been numberless attacks on Shiite religious processions and precincts. Somewhat more insulting to Islam (one might think) than a caricature in Copenhagen, these desecrations did not immediately produce the desired effect. Grand Ayatollah Sistani even stated that, if he himself fell victim, he forgave his murderers in advance and forbade retaliation in his name. This extraordinary forbearance meant that many Shiites--and Sunnis, too--refused to play Zarqawi's game. But the grim fact is, as we know from Cyprus and Bosnia and Lebanon and India, that a handful of determined psychopaths can erode in a year the sort of intercommunal fraternity that has taken centuries to evolve. If you keep pressing on the nerve of tribalism and sectarianism, you will eventually get a response. And then came the near-incredible barbarism in Samarra, and the laying waste of the golden dome. It is not merely civil strife that is partly innate in the very make-up of Iraq. There could be an even worse war, of the sort that Thomas Hobbes pictured: a "war of all against all" in which localized gangs and mafias would become rulers of their own stretch of turf. This is what happened in Lebanon after the American withdrawal: The distinctions between Maronite and Druze and Palestinian and Shiite became blurred by a descent into minor warlordism. In Iraq, things are even more fissile. Even the "insurgents" are fighting among themselves, with local elements taking aim at imported riffraff and vice-versa. Saddam's vicious tactic, of emptying the jails on the eve of the intervention and freeing his natural constituency of thugs and bandits and rapists, was exactly designed to exacerbate an already unstable situation and make the implicit case for one-man "law and order." There is strong disagreement among and between the Shiites and the Sunnis, and between them and the Kurds, only the latter having taken steps to resolve their own internal party and regional quarrels. America's mistake in Lebanon was first to intervene in a way that placed us on one minority side--that of the Maronites and their Israeli patrons--and then to scuttle and give Hobbes his mandate for the next 10 years. At least it can be said for the present mission in Iraq that it proposes the only alternative to civil war, dictatorship, partition or some toxic combination of all three. Absent federal democracy and power-sharing, there will not just be anarchy and fragmentation and thus a moral victory for jihadism, but opportunist interventions from Iran, Saudi Arabia and Turkey. (That vortex, by the way, is what was waiting to engulf Iraq if the coalition had not intervened, and would have necessitated an intervention later but under even worse conditions.) There are signs that many Iraqi factions do appreciate the danger of this, even if some of them have come to the realization somewhat late. The willingness of the Kurdish leadership in particular, to sacrifice for a country that was gassing its people until quite recently, is beyond praise. Everybody now has their own scenario for the war that should have been fought three years ago. The important revelations in "Cobra II," by Michael Gordon and Bernard Trainor, about the underestimated reserve strength of the Fedayeen Saddam, give us an excellent picture of what the successor regime to the Baath Party was shaping up to be: an Islamized para-state militia ruling by means of vicious divide-and-rule as between the country's peoples. No responsible American government could possibly have allowed such a contingency to become more likely. We would then have had to intervene in a ruined rogue jihadist-hosting state that was already in a Beirut-like nightmare. I could not help noticing, when the secret prisons of the Shiite-run "Interior Ministry" were exposed a few weeks ago, that all those wishing to complain ran straight to the nearest American base, from which help was available. For the moment, the coalition forces act as the militia for the majority of Iraqis--the inked-fingered Iraqis--who have no militia of their own. Honorable as this role may be, it is not enough in the long run. In Iraq we have made some good friends and some very, very bad enemies. (How can anyone, looking down the gun-barrel into the stone face of Zarqawi, say that fighting him is a "distraction" from fighting al Qaeda?) Over the medium term, if our apparent domestic demoralization continues, the options could come down to two. First, we might use our latent power and threaten to withdraw, implicitly asking Iraqis and their neighbors if that is really what they want, and concentrating their minds. This still runs the risk of allowing the diseased spokesmen of al Qaeda to claim victory. Second, we can demand to know, of the wider international community, if it could afford to view an imploded Iraq as a spectator. Three years ago, the smug answer to that, from most U.N. members, was "yes." This is not an irresponsibility that we can afford, either morally or practically, and even if our intervention was much too little and way too late, it has kindled in many Arab and Kurdish minds an idea of a different future. There is a war within the war, as there always is when a serious struggle is under way, but justice and necessity still combine to say that the task cannot be given up. Mr. Hitchens, a columnist for Vanity Fair, is the author of "A Long Short War: The Postponed Liberation of Iraq" (Penguin, 2003). | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3369 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Irish, you are such an apologist. This administration could go on live television, take a huge shit on the flag, stomp it into the ground, and light it fire and you'd still find someone to spin it for the "good." | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 429 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
I apologize for nothing LMichigan... I have a President that has been standing firm to defend this country while outrageous politicians that voted for the war, and saw the same evidence that this President saw, back peddal from their own responsibility to appease lefist wackos like yourself... at the risk of our soldiers in the field. Indeed it is you who are trashing the good work of our soldiers and the diplomats in the Middle East that are trying to make a safer world for this country and our children. You've been asked repeatedly to say how you would resolve the problem and not once has a coherent response been made. Why? Because it is easier to bitch than to provide solutions. Maybe your young and you will grow out of it. Maybe your old and there's no hope for you. In either case, while you make lofty pronouncements about why you are better and brighter than those that would defend this country, some kid is sleeping in an uncomfortable desert tonight for your the freedom to say the outrageous crap that you come up with. You should become an apologist... there are many you owe it to. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3372 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
Please, you should be apologizing to every family of a dead soldier for supporting a war built on lies, exaggerations, and half-truths that places our troops in harms way when they don't need to be. You sure are a wordy fellow, but it makes no difference in your points. They are all equally and foolishly apologetic. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 1806 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.215 |
Livernois said "Also the more than...100,000 Iraqis killed. A nice round, and most probably, nicely contrived, number." The man responsible for that figure is a Pentagon Statician whose "numbers" were used by the Bush Admin, until he came up with data that they did not like. You can find the article in the Lancet (British Medical Journal) registration required, http://www.thelancet.com/journ als/lancet/article/PIIS0140673 604174412/fulltext This study was also featured on "This American Life" on 10/28/05 Episode 30 About a year ago, a study estimated the number of Iraqi casualties since the war began. It came up with a number – 100,000 dead – that was higher than any other estimate, and was mostly ignored. This week, Alex Blumberg revisits that study to look at the reality behind it. In Act One he reports that not only is the study probably accurate, but it says that most of the deaths were caused by Coalition forces (despite concerted efforts to avoid civilian casualties). In Act Two, we hear U.S. forces trying to cope in the aftermath of some of those deaths. Prologue. We're a nation at war, but it hardly feels like it. That contrast is especially jarring for people like Hannah Allam, who just returned home to Oklahoma after two years in Baghdad running the Knight-Ridder Newspapers bureau there. Ira talks with Hannah, and Army Captain Chuck Ziegenfuss about what it feels like to come home from a war that nobody's paying much attention to. (6 minutes) Act One. Truth, Damn Truth, and Statistics. About a year ago, a John Hopkins University study in the British medical journal The Lancet estimated the number of civilian casualties in Iraq. It came up with a number – 100,000 dead – that was higher than any other estimate, and was mostly ignored. This week, Producer Alex Blumberg tells the remarkable story of what it took to find that number, why we should find it credible and why almost no one believed it. http://thisamericanlife.com/ | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 430 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.218.79.163 |
"Please, you should be apologizing to every family of a dead soldier for supporting a war built on lies, exaggerations, and half-truths that places our troops in harms way when they don't need to be. You sure are a wordy fellow, but it makes no difference in your points. They are all equally and foolishly apologetic." Again you failed to say what you would do. I also note that the lies that I hear come from your computer. Perhaps you would like to share the lies that you think were told...full quotes please....by who? We hear you say "Bush Lied" but you are unable to produce those mysterious lies... doesn't make for a very intelligent argument LMich. Every time your little parades and bizarre quotes are used by Al Jazerra, you have the blood of another soldier on your hands. All because you are too lazy to examine the evidence and address the issues. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 332 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Gosh! What credentials you bring to the table, Barney - Lancet.com and ThisAmericanLife.com. They'll surely soar to the top of my ToDo lists for factual, timely information - not. "Oh! A study on Lancet.com..." I can just visualize Homer Simpson putting down that one. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 499 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
Disputing the credibility of The Lancet is an embarrassingly unwitting admission of folly: http://www.thelancet.com/about. It's not just another trivial website. I'm sorry, Livernoisyard. I'm just trying to save you from your own misplaced passion. (Message edited by Jimaz on March 21, 2006) | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 1807 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.228 |
Oh, nobody's going to sneak anything by you, eh livernois? A medical journal using scientific data gathered by a high ranking Pentagon expert, (one whose data was used repeatedly by your emperor) is just fluff compared to worldnet daily, right? I guess that means you won't be reading Kevin Phillips new book either. | ||
Czar Member Username: Czar Post Number: 2980 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 72.49.166.173 |
Just wait until Livernoisyard resorts to pointing out misspellings while misspelling words himself. The guy's a hoot. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 843 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
So just how many of you chickenhawks have put your money where your mouths are? Irish? Do you march on Veteran's Day? How about Livernois? Karl Marx? Or did you guys get the Dick Cheney deferrals? | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 1808 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.228 |
I've suggested that they become SBS (Suicide Bombers for Bush) but some folks don't like wearing a backpack. And maybe they are too old for the military... but why work for the military when you can make big bucks as a contractor? There's still plenty o' ways a chickenhawk can be part of the fun! http://overseasdigest.com/iraq -jobs.htm | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3373 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
This whole thing is a mess, and I mean the whole situation, here and in Iraq. This is exactly why wars built on exaggerations and lies can never truly be "won." The whole escapade was doomed from the outset when Bush and his war machine thought it would be better to try and fool the American people, than to level with them and tell them that he wanted to set up a United States military presence in Iraq. It's the neo-cons glorious world order that Bush got trapped up in, among other things. They need Iraq as a base to eventually get at Iran. That backfired, huh? | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 844 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
Clearly, the chickenhawks have flown the coop ... | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 500 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 68.2.191.57 |
It's a darned shame too. It'd be nice to welcome them into the fold as fellow patriots. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3375 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.172.95.197 |
I'm not sure if they'll be missed considering how they tried characterize the other size as un-American, giving aid and comfort to terrorists, un-patriotic...and the list goes on. I find it hard to believe they'd even want to to welcomed into the fold. As far as they are concerned, we should invade Iran, Syria, and beyond. Iraq was only the first step for them. Hopefully, it will be our last for a long time. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 845 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.144.80.173 |
Sure, until we elect the next chicken hawk. It's almost worth having compulsory military service for anyone wanting to be president. If you deploy troops, you have to've been out in the field with them. |
