  Genius Member Username: Genius Post Number: 20 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
The first three Catholic church closings for this year have been publicized: Guardian Angels (Kelly Rd. north of Houston Whittier) and St. Brendan (Beaconsfield & Morang) on the far east side of Detroit, and Martyrs of Uganda (Rosa Parks & Bethune) on the near west side. Stay tuned for the press conference next Wednesday. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060322/NEW S05/603220307 | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1292 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
I think with this we've passed the peak when it comes to closing churches in Detroit. Most of the rest seem to be pretty sustainable, and they are often landmarks in themselves. Coming Wednesday, I'd expect about 10 inner-ring parishes to be closed or merged. This will be a wake-up call for many suburbanites as to just how catastrophically rampant our sprawl is. Livonia and Southfield really aren't shrinking, but the demographics are shifting, and other places to the N/W are growing so extremely fast. The closing of a bedrock community institution like a church, because of the need to reallocate priests to sprawlville, should really accentuate our sprawl problem, and point to the need of the inner ring to get it together when it comes to making themselves marketable. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7059 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.98 |
So what is the Detroit ADs responsibility for the buildings themselves. Will they let them rot? Board them up and walk away? How they manage their closed buildings will speak about the integrity of Maida and his plan. | ||
Valkyrias Member Username: Valkyrias Post Number: 222 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 69.47.103.87 |
i already know for a fact (and for some time now) that the 4 churches in southfield will be merging...i think i mentioned this on another thread that mentioned st. bede school in southfield is closing. i don't think the it's so much that the priests need to be reallocated to growing parishes in sprawlville but rather the demographics are changing, as you also mentioned. i will say it does make it more convenient to spread around the few resources they have. | ||
Valkyrias Member Username: Valkyrias Post Number: 223 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 69.47.103.87 |
jt1...i wouldn't be surprised if they sell them off. several years ago, when they closed st. anthony on 9 mile and evegreen, they sold it to another faith group. the seminary there was also sold to some other educational insitution. i'm not sure if they do that with all of their churches and related buildings that they close, but if they close st. bede's in southfield, they would be dumb to not try and sell it because that is prime property over at 12 and southfield. and although that is the largest of all the parishes in southfield and could hold all 4, i would not be surprised if they closed it so they could recoup some money. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7060 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.149.88 |
Nothing wrong with that. It would make sense and bring in some money for the church. I just don't want them to walk away from the responsibility or selling for $1 to some speculator or someone that can not maintain the building. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 434 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 64.79.90.206 |
Jt1,I think that a good example of how the AofD will manage the closed church buildings can be seen in what happened to Mt. Martin's. The building has been mothballed for more than 10 years. It is beautifully maintained. The grounds are kept clean and cut. The priest's house, a beautiful attached building, has been consistantly rented to non-profit groups. The plan was to keep the church to see what would shake out in that riverside neighborhood. Maybe Catholics would move back into the new housing, etc. That hasn't happened and, as well, St. Ambrose church is very close. So now the A of D os entertaining three proposals for the property - one of which is from a Baptist church congregation. All three proposals are compatible uses - but I believe the other two will involve tearing down the church. I have not seen one example of the A of D being a slum landlord. Can any one else provide one? Its true, however, that in the last round of closings (more than a decade ago) the A of D sold off church buildings and plants at way below their value to church congregations that had dreamy plans but absolutely no real finances to keep the buildings up. This caused a lot of the new congregations to abandon or re-sell the properties and led to the horrible state that many of those originally Catolic churches are in now. I hope that the A of D can figure out a way to avoid this happening again. | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1253 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.57 |
Nothing real surprising in the Archdiocese's reorganization plan: •BY JUNE Detroit: Closing -- Guardian Angels, Martyrs of Uganda, St. Brendan Merging -- St. Anthony and Annunciation/Our Lady of Sorrows; Immaculate Heart of Mary and St. Gerard Creating a cluster or merger plan -- Our Lady of Good Counsel, Our Lady Queen of Heaven and St. Raymond Dearborn: Creating a merger plan -- St. Joseph and St. Martha Hamtramck: Creating a merger plan -- St. Ladislaus (partner to be determined) Warren: Creating merger plans -- St. Cletus and St. Louise; Ascension, St. Dorothy and St. Leonard Livonia: Clustering -- St. Genevieve and St. Maurice •IN FALL Dearborn Heights: Creating merger plan -- St. Albert the Great and St. John the Baptist Dearborn/Detroit: Creating cluster or merger plan -- St. Alphonsus, St. Barbara, St. Clement, all in Dearborn, and St. Cunegunda in Detroit Memphis/Smiths Creek/Columbus: Clustered parishes to realign -- All Saints in Memphis, Holy Rosary Mission in Smiths Creek, St. Philip Neri in Columbus Marine City/Algonac/Harsens Island: Clustered parishes that will realign -- Holy Cross in Marine City, St. Catherine of Alexandria in Algonac and St. Mark on Harsens Island Monroe area: 14 parishes must submit cluster or merger plans Port Huron area: Five parishes will be reduced by one -- St. Edward on the Lake in Lakeport; St. Mary, St. Joseph and St. Stephen, all in Port Huron, and St. Christopher in Marysville •TO SUBMIT CLUSTER PLANS BY DECEMBER Downriver: Christ the Good Shepherd and St. Henry, both in Lincoln Park, and St. Pius X of Southgate Our Lady of Lourdes in River Rouge, St. Francis Xavier in Ecorse, St. Elizabeth and St. Helena, both in Wyandotte Our Lady of Mt. Carmel and St. Stanislaus Kostka, both in Wyandotte Our Lady of the Woods, Woodhaven, St. Roch and St. Victor, both in Gibraltar St. Francis Cabrini in Allen Park and St. Hugh in Southgate St. Joseph and St. Patrick, both in Wyandotte St. Joseph and St. Timothy, both in Trenton, and St. Cyprian in Riverview and Sacred Heart in Grosse Ile St. Alfred, St. Constance, St. Cyril and St. Paschal, all in Taylor Detroit: Our Lady Help of Christians and Transfiguration. Also, St. Louis (partner to be determined) Hamtramck: St. Florian and Our Lady Queen of Apostles Westland: Divine Savior and St. Theodore; St. Richard and SS. Simon and Jude Westland/Garden City: St. Raphael and St. Dunstan, both in Garden City, and St. Damian in Westland Dearborn Heights: St. Mel, St. Sabina East side: Our Lady Queen of All Saints in Fraser and St. Donald in Roseville Holy Innocents in Roseville and St. Barnabas in Eastpointe St. Basil and St. Veronica, both in Eastpointe St. Germaine and St. Gertrude in St. Clair Shores •TO MERGE IN 2007 Southfield: St. Beatrice, St. Bede, St. Ives and St. Michael Clinton Township: St. Claude and St. Thecla; St. Louis and St. Valerie •TO CLOSE IN 2007 Detroit: St. John Cantius •TO MERGE OR CLUSTER IN THE FUTURE Troy/Birmingham: St. Alan in Troy and St. Columban in Birmingham Harper Woods: Our Lady Queen of Peace and St. Peter the Apostle •TO MERGE OR CLOSE WHEN PASTOR LEAVES Detroit: St. Andrew, St. Anthony (Lithuanian) and Our Lady of Mt. Carmel Redford: St. John Bosco Westland: St. Bernardine of Siena •TO BE STUDIED FOR NEW CHURCHES Northern Oakland: Davisburg mass station Northern Macomb: St. Maximilian Kolbe More details in these Freep articles: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060330/NEW S05/603300460 http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060330/NEW S05/603300459 | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1094 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
.. The Catholic church should be the LAST organization to encourage sprawl.. Typically they are the first one in and the last to leave... and the fact that churches are even being sold off or demolished is so against church doctrine, that less than 50 years ago, the outcry would be incredible. I cannot believe that the church is succumbing to this mentality.... Churches are built like they are for the reason that they are supposed to be permanent. Newer ones now look like office buildings at best, dungeons at worst. I could go on but im disgusted... | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4754 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 141.213.175.233 |
Explain. If there aren't enough parishioners to support a church, with the associated costs of a priest, staff, etc., why shouldn't it close? I don't think the church is the least bit concerned about your self-righteous rant about sprawl as it is about being able to minimize its financial burdens. Like it or not, organized religion is accountable for financial responsibility. They are also responsible for keeping up with their flock as they migrate. The fault isn't with the church administration. | ||
Kova Member Username: Kova Post Number: 204 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 141.213.184.173 |
The AoD MUST take some of the blame. They haven’t given 2 cents about the inner ring areas for decades, let alone Detroit. Numerous parishes throughout the years have put forth plans to make their parish communities viable. Many were submitted downtown and the response.... none. Maida has continued to choose incompetent and egotistic advisors which can also share some of the blame. Money to the John Paul center in DC? Millions spent on the cathedral? Does Maida even LIVE in Detroit anymore? The Church has also been ineffective in speaking out against sprawl for decades. The only differnce between Maida and Shaka is that Maida makes it look like parishes had a say in it. Which, in a very limited sense, is true. Either way both got what they wanted. (Message edited by KOVA on April 01, 2006) | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 263 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 69.212.44.48 |
The AoD is pro-sprawl. Big time. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1095 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
Churches are consecrated to the holy sacrement... which to those that are not catholic, is a huge deal.. Its a place where every sunday, a miracle will be performed... the transubstantiation of body to bread, and blood to wine. In each and every church, is a relic, a remnant of a saint... usually a bone or an article of clothing permanently entombed in the stone altar of that church, or if the altar is made of wood, the tabernacle must be made of stone, in which the relic will be permanently placed. In most churches, the alter is made of stone, and the tabbernacle made of gold plated steel. THe host and the consecrated sacrement in the tritentine mass never touch other than gold plate, or a priests hands who is in a state of grace... (if he had committed any sins, he confessed them and has atoned). A polished marble tabernacle or altar, or your toung. Quite fitting for the king of kings, literally the most pure and best treatment we can give his body that we as humans know of. So time change after 2000 years and we jsut DETSTROY this rite and the churches in which his holy endowed saints are buried? Im sorry... but the realm beyond this one deserves better consideration. Times may change, but god remains constant. His body and blood deserve better treatment than what these new churches are giving him. In many churches today, materials are used that we would not even use in our own house.... Let alone the body and blood of our lord... who literally gave himself up to be mangled, ripped apart, and die a slow death so that he may not only prove that he knows what it is like to be us.. and to suffer... but to do it so that we may have a life after this one. Im sorry, but he deserves a grand church... not an office dungeon. | ||
Bostedguy Member Username: Bostedguy Post Number: 340 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 69.246.19.150 |
Szoka was the previous Cardinal. | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 2854 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.209.138.61 |
Alexei, there is nothing in Catholic doctrine that prevents the sale or closure of a church building. Yes, the altars of churches have relics in them, and that's why the altars and everything else possible are removed when a church is closed. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 442 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 64.79.90.206 |
Kova: are you in church on Sunday? If you were you would surely be aware that the AoD has a serious and scholarly anti-sprawl program. See this from an article discussing that program in America Magazine in 2002: "We are getting a much better response from people as they become part of a public discourse,” said Ann Serra, who remembers the hopelessness she witnessed during the first meetings of the new anti-sprawl ministry. In the suburban parishes she heard horrible stories about Coleman Young (the former black mayor of Detroit) and his policies, as well as people’s fears about the migration and decline in the area. Now Ms. Serra conducts a dialogue with participants. She begins by first asking them why they chose the community they live in. Invariably they say, because of the schools, safety and lower taxes. No one has listed accessibility to shopping or highways. “What we are trying to do [through the sprawl issue] is build solidarity in the church,” she said. “Everyone is learning as we dialogue. The people see that we’re all Catholics, regardless of race, and that we have obligations to one another, whether we live in the city or the suburbs.” The archdiocese has been contacting all its 314 parishes to join in this ministry against sprawl and to promote a regional mass transit system in southeastern Michigan. It has also teamed up with a local community organizing group called Moses (Metropolitan Organizing Strategy Enabling Strength), which works with other religious congregations in the city and suburbs on this issue. Moses provides a training program that teaches citizens how to take responsibility and mobilize for change in a democratic way. Residents learn how to build citizen coalitions from a position of power and action. “To be powerful is a good thing,” said Bill O’Brien, executive director of Moses. “To be powerless is a scandal. Power is the ability to act. Through power we teach church leaders how to organize people and/or money.” O’Brien said that people become empowered because they are in relationship with individuals and groups of people. “The church is a place of relationship and community. We provide people with a strategy to make that happen.” | ||
Mbr Member Username: Mbr Post Number: 55 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 152.160.42.163 |
Interesting article about the AoD being anti-sprawl: http://www.mlui.org/transporta tion/fullarticle.asp?fileid=11 893 | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 3905 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.219 |
Well at least a UNITED CHURCH is more better than a divided church. I say go for it Cardinal Maida go the good Lord's work. (Message edited by danny on April 03, 2006) | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 144 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 69.220.142.7 |
Alexei289, I mostly agree. Nothing's sacred anymore. Convenience, efficiency and disposability override everything. Thank consumerism for that. Some of these churches might become non-Catholic but truthfully, most of these buildings are so grand and expensive to operate and maintain that it is doubtful they will be reused. St. Charles by my house has been performing mass in the basement all winter because they can't afford to heat it. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 774 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.77 |
I think ya'll are missing a piece of this puzzle. A lot of churches are closing because of the lack of Catholics left in some neighborhoods, but that is compounded by the priest shortage. | ||
Kova Member Username: Kova Post Number: 206 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 141.213.184.173 |
I never said the AoD was pro sprawl. I said it was ineffective. And yes I'm well aware of MOSES I attended one of their mass meetings in 2001 I believe. Bill O'brien came over to our house and I even went to school with his kid. Where is moses now? I dont know, i didn’t really get too involved, but Google MOSES and you will find that most of the articles only go to about 2002. The AoD is a day late and many dollars short to get into the game now. It's a "start" though. (Message edited by KOVA on April 03, 2006) | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 445 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 64.79.90.206 |
Kova: you are right that MOSES isn't in the news in the way it was previously. I, for one, couldn't stand them - they came barging in to every initiative and took over and took all the public credit for other people's long-time work (such as the work of the Southwest Detroit Environmental Initiative, long and successfully championed by Kathy Milberg). However, MOSES is still active. See this article from their website on Moses on immigration: "For the Civil Rights of Immigrants local campaign, MOSES leaders are currently working with State Representative Steve Tobocman to create a model in-state tuition policy for undocumented students. MOSES has two delegates on Rep. Tobocman’s working group. Currently, undocumented students pay four times more the cost to attend a public university than documented students. We will take the model policy to our area universities and ask for it to be adopted. For the state-wide campaign, MOSES gained the support of Representative Tobocman to introduce legislation by April 30th on Workers Compensation for Michigan. Undocumented workers who are injured on the job are not eligible for workers compensation. MOSES CRI Taskforce will take a large delegation to Lansing to witness the event. On a national scale, MOSES is working with Gamaliel’s CRI Department to advance comprehensive immigration reform (CIR). We support the federal DREAM Act, which will allow undocumented students the opportunity to attend a university and we will begin a congressional visit campaign in the spring." | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 148 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 69.220.142.7 |
Susanarosa is right. The congregations are shrinking year after year. The folks moving into the city generally aren't Catholics or practicing Catholics. What's AofD supposed to do? I think they should at least just stop building new churches. But then they'll lose Catholics, and they need the money. The churches way out in exurbia donate lots of money per household, and to their credit many have sister churches in the inner city that they work with. | ||
Royaloakian Member Username: Royaloakian Post Number: 66 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 65.42.23.2 |
Re the AOD anti sprawl, that info is out of date you should know Salt and Light for all practicle purposes does not exist anymore. Ms. Serra no longer works for the AOD and Dan Piepszowski is a now with New Detroit. The whole Christian Service Department was absorbed into other departments within the AOD two or three years ago. Personally I really wonder how anti sprawl they are given the close ties with the cardinal and Pulte. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 446 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 64.79.90.206 |
The changes certainly happened - when the stock market went south they had to let a lot of people go. The rock star Jack White's mother (who worked for the Cardinal) was one such. I believe, though, that the anti-sprawl mission continues through the Michigan Catholic Conference. | ||
Royaloakian Member Username: Royaloakian Post Number: 67 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 65.42.23.2 |
It may be with the MCC but I have not noticed anything of late as to how it pertains to the AOD. My friend who worked there told me Jack White's mother retired she wasn't let go as the Christian Service people were. |
