 
Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried
Post Number: 753
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.190
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:04 pm: |    |
So saturday my dog decided to lock us out of my condo. I live in one of the developing areas of midtown, but it made me realize how truly unwalkable the neighborhood is. I needed money to pay the locksmith, but the one atm within a mile was broke down. I hadn't ate yet, but there was no where I could walk to and feel comfortable leaving the dog tied up while I ran inside.
This, in addition to my recent trips to chicago, nyc, montreal, and toronto where my friends (even the ones who live in tougher neighborhoods) can easily walk out their door and be at the train, restaurant, or market, within 10 seconds makes me wonder what truly is detroit's most walkable neighborhood???
Midtown/Cass/Wayne State is decent, but there really aren't many resturants/stores/bars that you can actually walk to.
Corktown is great, but it seems like more of a village on the outskirts of downtown. I definitely would not call it urban, and although the streetscape is looking great, if you say michigan is walkable you are drunk.
Downtown has tons of restaurants and bars, and the shopping is getting better, but it seems like most everything is closed when I'm around (I work 9-5 in the burbs).
Anyway, I'm not trying to complain, I would really like to hear everyone's thoughts on the walkability of their neighborhood. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7076
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:08 pm: | |
Not to knit pick but I am guessing that you see walkability and walkability with close access to stores/restaurants as different things.
Corktown is a great neighorhood to walk around mcuh like many others but having businesses integrated into the neighborhoods is not a huge thing in Detroit and does take away from the experience quite a bit. |
Spaceman_spiff
Member
Username: Spaceman_spiff
Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 152.160.56.93
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:11 pm: | |
This isn't really in Detroit, but the most walkable neighborhood I lived in was Grosse Pointe Park off Kercheval between Outer Drive and Lakepointe. There were convienence stores, restaurants, parks, schools,restaurants and market days on kercheval. Although rent was low, it was only a mile to the waterfront, and the neighborhoods were well kept. Definitely the most walkable neighborhood I have lived in.
-Spiff |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 3023
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.248.74.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:13 pm: | |
Walk... are you kidding me? Why would anybody consider that as an option? |
Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport
Post Number: 9968
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.226
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:14 pm: | |
As long as you keep putting one foot in front of the other, every neighborhood is walkable. Corktown not urban? LMAO! |
Gravitymachine
Member
Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 955
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:24 pm: | |
the bronx must've been closed eh? they allow dogs  |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 83
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:28 pm: | |
West Village/Indian Village is pretty walkable, I can walk to a party store, movie store (Boxseat Video), supermarket (Indian Village Market, I do most of my shopping here), restaurant/bar (Harlequin), flower shop, antique store and Starbucks. That's all within three blocks around my house. I'm sure the gas station up the street has an ATM and it's 24 hours. But Jfried is right, Detroit needs more saturation of businesses and more choices. I only have one of each of these places to walk to. The problem with Detroit is a lack of density in many areas (That's what happens when half the city leaves). There's also too many single family homes. But gradually the core is being built up. What's important is to not develop EVERYTHING residential. We need more mixed use and more apartment buildings with ground floor retail (double whammy, density and diversity).
Midtown excels in the bar/restaurant arena, as does Corktown, but both really lack daily amenities, hence why my wife and I bought in West Village. |
Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried
Post Number: 755
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.190
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:32 pm: | |
jt1 - you're right. I've made the same arguments between pedestrian friendly, and pedestrian oriented development.
supersport - I know you walk everywhere, but I'm talking about a defined neighborhood, where it would be efficient for a reasonable person to accomplish everyday tasks. |
Eastside
Member
Username: Eastside
Post Number: 828
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.246.10.58
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:33 pm: | |
The Lions just issued a press release. It states "corktown is not, nor has ever been, urban." |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 84
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:36 pm: | |
Supersport, Corktown is somewhat walkable but it could be a lot better. The businesses are kinda stretched out along Michigan Ave and a few are scattered through the neighborhood on odd side streets. There is the Bank One on Trumbull though for ATM access which I use a lot. IMO Corktown suffers from Michigan Ave. being twice as wide as it needs to be and too many gravel lots tearing up the urban fabric of the area. It could also use a lot more density like some apartment buildings. It's definitely urban though, at least the side streets are. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 85
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:38 pm: | |
Jfried, I'd define a walkable neighborhood as a place where it's easier to accomplish tasks on foot than it is to drive.
Detroit has a LONG, LONG way to go in this respect. |
Neilr
Member
Username: Neilr
Post Number: 224
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.242.215.65
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:41 pm: | |
Lafayette Park is quite walkable. It's an easy walk to Eastern Market, the shopping plaza has Box Seat Video, carry out food, Paris Cafe, and more (but no grocery store). Greektown is right over the Chrysler Xway. Downtown banks, Borders, and the new YMCA are a short 20 minute walk. Kids can walk to Chrysler Elementary School w/o having to cross any streets. The new eastside Riverwalk will have an entrance on Rivard. And more... |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7077
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:45 pm: | |
I think one thing that is missing from the conversation is the fact that most of the shopping/resources listed are on arterial or main roads and or are strip malles.
I see really walkable neighborhoods as having businesses mixed in with the neighborhood itslef, not on the fringes or on main roads.
Businesses and residential don't really mix in Detroit which is a shame for having a true walkable neighborhood. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 86
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:48 pm: | |
Neilr, I'll second that. I used to live in Lafayette Park and walked to eastern market every Saturday and the other locations you mentioned. It was nice when they had Lafayette Park Market in there. It's an easy 10 minute walk downtown too.
But seriously, a friend of mine lives in Toronto and drives his car about once every two weeks to the supermarket and that's it. He can do everything else without a car. That's walkable. There's even a little 24 hour grocery store in his building. I think the Detroit's core will get there but it'll be like 10-15 years. The changes over the last 10 are already shocking. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 87
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 1:53 pm: | |
Jt1, the businesses in West Village are mixed right in on a side street. Take Jefferson and drive up Van Dyke to Agnes. The little strip is doing alright considering it's not on an arterial road. We could use a carryout place though. Who wants to open one? I pick Thai. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7078
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:03 pm: | |
I know where you are talking about but I believe and I very well may be wrong that is the more the exception in Detroit. |
Hunchentoot
Member
Username: Hunchentoot
Post Number: 26
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.61.161.39
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:16 pm: | |
Not to be flip by taking this to the burbs, but I'm surprised to find some places "walkable on accident". Fraser, in the areas that are neighborhoods rather than subdivisions, is still plenty decentrilized and suburban, but from my house I can easily walk to a party, grocery, and drug store, post office, two parks, city hall, several churches, the elementary school, the library, hardware store, bank, comic book shop, florist, barber, auto repair, and some bars and restaurants. The roads are wide and unwelcoming but somehow things worked out for feet, too. The neighborhood itself was not well planned and sidewalks appear and vanish unexpectedly, but it's still a pleasant walk even if you're suddenly on someone's yard.
I think the worst anti-urban construction such as strip malls with massive parking lots and snouthouse mansion-yards have sucessfully covered up anything that looked like a "town" in Fraser, but living in the center of the little four-square-mile box still makes it possible to walk around and get things done, it's just not beautiful, nor does it infuse civic pride.
Corktown seems to have the right people in the development corp and neighborhood to develop itself into walkability, but Michigan Avenue is not being very helpful. North Corktown has great potential since creative people are trying to develop it and it retains a tight street grid. |
Histeric
Member
Username: Histeric
Post Number: 667
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.220.62.123
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:45 pm: | |
MDOT and Greater Corktown are presenting our plan for Michigan Avenue today at 4 PM at the Gaelic League for those interested. Most exciting is MDOT has signed off on shrinking Michigan Ave to 5 lanes, 16 foot sidewalks, bike lanes of different color concrete and ........finally rebuilding the roadbed with brick colored stamped concrete. Look for construction to start in 07. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 88
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:53 pm: | |
Histeric, WOW that is good news. That could be the linchpin that really changes Corktown. But it still needs storefronts on the south side of Michigan Ave. More than anything, Corktown really needs apartment buildings. Corktown it very low density, there is way too much light industrial, single family homes and parking lots. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 89
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:54 pm: | |
Hunchentoot, good points but without sidewalks it's really easier to drive than walk, not to mention the safety issues. |
Histeric
Member
Username: Histeric
Post Number: 668
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.220.62.123
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:58 pm: | |
One step at a time my friend. Our strategy is to first make sure that what we have (in terms of built environment) is restored. Then begins the infill. Look for new buildings to hit Michigan Avenue after the roadbed, Grinnell Lofts, etc are done. I would guesstimate in two to three years you will see the first new mixed use buildings begin to sprout along the avenue. |
Hunchentoot
Member
Username: Hunchentoot
Post Number: 27
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.61.161.39
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:00 pm: | |
There are sidewalks on the wide, main roads, but in the neighborhoods themselves the sidewalks start and stop all over the place. Just walking in the street on the correct side is fine on most old neighborhood streets because they have low traffic flow.
I'm excited about the Michigan Avenue news too. The streetlights already look great. A good friend of mine is buying a house in Corktown and rents there now, so I'm around somewhat often and the changes have been for the better lately. |
Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism
Post Number: 445
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:09 pm: | |
Thanks for the terrific news, Histeric. |
Unclefrank
Member
Username: Unclefrank
Post Number: 15
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 192.85.50.2
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:15 pm: | |
As far as the burbs go, where I live now, Roseville, ain't too bad. It can be somewhat drab, but there are places to do banking, eat, etc. When I lived in Troy and Sterling Heights, the situation sucked. All the cookie cutter houses looked the same, and the businesses were very pedestrian unfriendly. It made for safe, but very uninteresting walks, |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 80
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 209.220.229.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:29 pm: | |
Ferndale, RO, and Birmingham currently come the closest to the mixed-use vision you see in other major cities. Woodward in Detroit would as well if all the planned lofts actually fill up, and if someone builds a grocery. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7084
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:30 pm: | |
Beyond the main street stuff in those cities are the neighborhoods walkable with business mixed in or they typical suburbs with a small downtown.
Just playing devil's advocate. |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 81
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 209.220.229.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:35 pm: | |
We said neighborhoods, not full cities. RO probably comes the closest because they have multiple throughfares with usable retail on them (Woodward, 11 mile, Main, Campbell, etc). The main thing it has going for it, even though its "typical suburb" is that it's typical OLD suburb, so the street grid is fairly intact away from Woodward, lots are smaller, especially in the southern section, etc.
But yeah, it is still mainly the "Main Street" area. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1303
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:35 pm: | |
Ann Arbor does too, Focusonthed.
Many of the big residential developments, whether it be U-Towers on S. University or the newest apartments on State st. where Buffalo Wild Wings is are mixed use. And walkability is the key word when it comes to describing Ann Arbor. The only street downtown that is hard to cross (but there are still plenty of crosswalks from State to Main) is Huron. But Huron tends to be the more corporate part of town anyway, and there are plenty of other low-scale walkable/retail districts. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7086
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:36 pm: | |
Agree with you both. |
Hunchentoot
Member
Username: Hunchentoot
Post Number: 28
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.61.161.39
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:44 pm: | |
Roseville has a few areas it could develop to be slightly more urban districts, such as the intersection of Utica and Gratiot. The infrastructure is there for a small hip retail area, but it isn't really used to its full potential as-is. In the 90s I remember Hot Hits was there instead of up the road and Gonzo was an actual coffeehouse. The Roseville Theatre could be utilized as more than just a teen club, as well. And of course I dream of light rail in the Gratiot median, but I don't expect to hop on the train any time soon. |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 83
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 209.220.229.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 3:51 pm: | |
Yeah, sorry, Ann Arbor might actually come the closest. I always forget about it because it's too far for me to go to regularly.
Ann Arbor shows that if parking is at a premium, they will walk. Location and density helps too, but I bet more people would drive if they could afford to have cars. Since they can't, businesses exist in a (rather large) walkable area between U-M and downtown.
(Message edited by focusonthed on March 28, 2006) |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1304
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 4:17 pm: | |
Most definitly, Focus.
There's S. University from Washtenaw to E. University, there's Church and E. University from South U. to Willard. State street, especially from William to Huron, Liberty, Washington, Packard, Kerrytown, the Main/Huron area, and between all of these retail districts is cohesive housing or university buildings.
Hmm I would say though that a lot more people could afford cars but they don't bother, such is the makeup of the UM student body. Only north campus has parking offered to residents, and Oxford housing on the east side which has only a couple dozen spots. And for those that keep cars, especially the rich east coasters in the Greek system (okay not just e. coast people), they really rarely use them, pulling them out only to make a trip to the edge of town, Detroit, etc. There are actually a decent amount of large parking structures in A2, to remind you that you are in Michigan, but it certainly is not overwhelming. A2 has an impressive bus system (with frequent stops which makes it convenient for even hopping around town) that has made me really enjoy the stress-free non-car life. |
Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried
Post Number: 756
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.190
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 4:39 pm: | |
What about the CBD? Living in Merchants Row you could pretty much get by without a car. I could even walk two blocks, jump on the Gratiot bus which would drop me off right in front of my east side office. I know downtown has specialty shops, book stores, restaurants, bars, coffee shops, the YMCA, entertainment, a few small markets (and a gourmet grocery store planned to open next month in riverfront towers). Other than a Gap and cheesecake factory, what NECESSITIES would be difficult to walk to downtown? |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 85
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 209.220.229.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 4:43 pm: | |
A real grocery store, not a "gourmet" one. I don't trust that word. It conjures up visions of the shelves stocked with soy, but they're out of meat. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 90
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 5:43 pm: | |
To be really walkable there have to be useful everyday businesses that are EASIER TO WALK TO THAN TO DRIVE TO. FocusontheD, I agree that A2 is the only city that comes close, largely because of it's large captive carless student population and the high expense of parking. Even so, when my brother lived there he really needed a bike to get everywhere that he needed to and had to only buy at the grocery store what he could carry riding a bike.
Really, short of a big event downtown like the Super Bowl or Fireworks, driving is almost always easier than walking in Detroit. The amount of abundant free parking is staggering, especially if you're from another major city where parking is always at a premium.
But as far as sidewalks to walk on? There's plenty but not many people walking on them for reasons described above, thus business' cater to the needs of cars not humans creating a more and more unwalkable environment. It's a steady downward spiral towards a more and more dehumanized environment.
I must point out one positive however: In my neighborhood, West Village, there are quite a few pedestrians, especially in the summer. This is largely because about 20% of the residents in the area don't own cars (according to census data) most likely because they can't afford them. So they walk to the store, the bus stop, etc. Walking is very economical. |
Corktownmark
Member
Username: Corktownmark
Post Number: 172
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.246.27.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:02 pm: | |
walked to both the fire works and to many events around the super bowl. One mile or even a little more are walkable in almost every other great city. We are just going to have to get used to leaving our cars. |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 1837
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.2.148.138
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:16 pm: | |
hubbard richard/mexicantown and Southwest in general.
I can walk to a grocery, Slows, LJS, a park...that's a good start. |
Dialh4hipster
Member
Username: Dialh4hipster
Post Number: 1506
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.250.205.35
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:18 pm: | |
Ann Arbor doesn't just come close, it hits the mark. I lived there for 10 years, none of them as a student and none of them in the immediate area surrounding UM. I used to walk to work, to every restaurant or bar I would ever go to, to the store ... as a matter of fact I would only drive when visiting friends or doing some major shopping or doing something work related. I drove once, maybe twice a week.
The layout of the streets works really well, with Liberty connecting Main Street with the campus area, and densely populated neighborhoods west, north and south of there. It's really quite fantastic and I'd absolutely consider moving back there someday. As a matter of fact, coming to the Detroit area was a more difficult relocation than my move from Washington, DC to Ann Arbor. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 1934
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.186.85
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:27 pm: | |
I have a friend in Detroit who lives in the far east side right near Mack & Moross. His Detroit neighborhood has nice brick houses on Hillcrest, Lanoo and Gateshead. There, concentrated within a 4 block walk are all the following anemities:
Pointe Plaza Shopping Center
Kroger
Barnes & Noble Booksellers
Rite Aid
Walgreen
CVS
Blockbuster
Kroger
National Coney Island
Buddy's
Mr. C's Deli
Chinese Restaurant
2 Gas Stations
Kinko's/FedEx
Tire Store
China Shop
Bike Shop
Car Wash
JoAnn Fabric's
1/2 dozen bars
Post Office
Alexander & Polen Butcher Shop
AAA Offices
Dozens of other stores
Restaurants
Major hospital and medical center
Large park with a sledding hill
(Message edited by Gistok on March 28, 2006) |
Kova
Member
Username: Kova
Post Number: 203
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 141.213.184.173
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:28 pm: | |
warrendale |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1305
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:52 pm: | |
The nice part about your list Gistok is that about half of those establishments are on the Detroit side of Mack and half are in GP Farms. What is also nice is that this trend continues down through Cadieux and indeed all the way to near Alter. Past Outer Drive it's almost entirely small businesses in older buildings. Therefore, the same assertion you made largely holds true for people in the Marsailles-Cadiuex neighborhood and those in East English Village. EEV is safe enough to be walkable, and there are plenty of practical retail offerings on Mack and Warren, especially Mack.
I live (summer-time) along the Mack corridor but on the GP side. Mack could hardly be called an iron-curtain between Detroit and GP. Sure the homes to the N/W are generally less than 1/2 the size and less than 1/3 the price as the ones in GP starting immeadiatly from Mack, but the stores along the corridor are frequented fairly evenly between folks from either city. |
Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve
Post Number: 2842
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.209.182.37
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 7:53 pm: | |
"Roseville has a few areas it could develop to be slightly more urban districts, such as the intersection of Utica and Gratiot."
There's a very good reason that intersection has a budding urban feel to it: it's the original village of Roseville.
"A2 is the only city that comes close"
Pardon me, but I think Hamtramck come just as close as Ann Arbor. |
Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 179
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.142.147.141
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 9:26 pm: | |
I agree with Hamtramck Steve. The only place in Detroit that is walkable is Hamtramck... too many holes in the ozone layer... |
Ilovedetroit
Member
Username: Ilovedetroit
Post Number: 2176
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 68.40.225.75
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 9:46 pm: | |
My vote is Corktown. Although EEV and Rosedale Park are very nice and there are stores nearby. |
Superaygun
Member
Username: Superaygun
Post Number: 316
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 68.42.181.134
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 11:37 pm: | |
a third vote here for Hamtramck. i live a block away from downtown so everything i need is within walking distance (including two bars literally right across the street--you gotta love Hamtramck). |
Fishtoes2000
Member
Username: Fishtoes2000
Post Number: 86
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.14.26.135
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 1:24 am: | |
Having lived in Ann Arbor for awhile without a car, I found it very walkable. I'll add downtown Royal Oak and Birmingham, which should only get better with the increases in downtown residential construction. |
Tomoh
Member
Username: Tomoh
Post Number: 111
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.205.183
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 1:37 am: | |
One vote for Ann Arbor (bonus, if you live there you can also probably walk to work and/or school), one vote for Hamtramck (especially if you're Bengali). Of course, I think there are many people who live right behind the mile roads (both longitudinal and latitudinal) and our numbered highways who could walk to a grocery store, an atm, a party store, a restaurant, and perhaps some other services (9 Mile in Ferndale tops this list). Unnfortunately, unless you're near an intersection there's really only so many businesses that you can walk to because whereas in a true mixed use, urban neighborhood every block in every direction potentially contain shopping, if you live on 7 Mile you just have to keep walking further east or west until you each the store you want. Great for cars, not so great for walking. But then again, there are many intersections of these roads (best example again may be 9 Mile and Woodward) where walkable destinations double.
Hamtramck is also essentially laid out this way but with the parallel drags of Jos Campau and Conant being less than half a mile apart, and Caniff and Holbrook crossing it like tic-tac-toe. Almost everyone in the city is less than a quarter mile from one or more of those roads, most are that distance from an intersection of two of them.
The problem is that most of Detroit's grid layout has stores only on roads every mile rather than every half mile or less. There needs to be more roads like Puritan, half a mile between McNichols and Fenkell, which could potentially be as walkable as Hamtramck with some added north-south roads that were half a mile apart.
There's also lots of potential when Detroit's diagonal roads meet near the intersection of two other roads such as Old Redford.
I think the logical conclusion is that Detroit needs to rezone every half-mile road as allowing for commercial uses so that we can rebuild neighborhoods in a more walkable and sustainable way, adding apartment buildings which the city is seriously lacking, with stores on the ground floor. This is also Ferndale's limiting factor. Same goes for W. Vernor. |
Chitaku
Member
Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.43.107.72
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 1:38 am: | |
Mack Ave From 9 Mile to Alter road is very walkable, then for some reason there is that goofy strip mall on the corner that ruins it. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 1564
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 68.255.240.236
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 1:43 am: | |
If you live in Rosedale Park along Grand River between Evergreen and the Southfield Freeway, you can walk to these businesses:
Comerica Bank
Dental Offices(3)
Little Caesars
Gas Stations(2)
Party Stores(3)
Hardware Stores(2)
Baskin & Robbins
Auto Zone
Murray's Auto Discount
Carpet Store
Barber Shops(2)
Beauty Salon(2-3)
Beauty Supply Store
Medical Clinics(2-3)
Sitdown Restaurants(2)
McDonald's
CVS
Rite-Aid
Florist
Blockbuster
Hollywood Videos
Subway
Chinese Restaurants(2)
Grocery Store
Collision Shop
Belle Tire
Cleaners(2)
Game Stop
Dollar Stores(2)
Seafood/Fish Fry Stores(2)
Clothing/Shoe Stores(3)
Real Estate Offices(2-3)
Daycare(2)
Night Club/Bar
Cell Phone Store
Car Washes(2)
All of these places are within a ten minute walk from where I live. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 1565
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 68.255.240.236
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:00 am: | |
Tomoh, I agree with you that there are some areas of Detroit where there needs to be more commerial establishments to make it easier for residents to walk to. An example is Curtis Rd. Curtis is the half mile street between McNichols(Six Mile) and Seven Mile. From the Lodge Freeway(James Couzens) to Livernois it is all residential. There are lovely homes and neighborhoods along that stretch of Curtis, but no place to walk to for convenience items, except at the corner of Wyoming and Curtis, but not much in terms of convenience is really there.
I'm going to assume that planners knew that people living along Curtis had some money so that they could afford to drive to stores. Jjaba any comments? |
Masterblaster
Member
Username: Masterblaster
Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 155.79.138.253
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 7:51 am: | |
People, People,
HOW are you forgetting Southwest Detroit and those heavily Mexican neighborhoods along Vernor Highway, where it intersects Grand Blvd, Scotten, Clark, Junction, and Springwells, etc. Vernor Highway has a load of businesses, and it is very walkable, and they are right next to relatively densely populated residential streets.
Also, there is Clark Park, Western High School, and a library on Grand Blvd that are within walking distance. |
Tomoh
Member
Username: Tomoh
Post Number: 112
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.205.183
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 10:11 am: | |
Royce, I'm sure that was part of their thinking back then, or that they could also just take a streetcar or something. Times have changed, the streetcars are gone, the city's much less dense, and we know how to make neighborhoods more livable today by allowing for driving but also allowing for walkable amenities.
Maybe we start changing things by rezoning/unzoning the half mile roads to allow taller apartments and stores to be built on vacant lots and allow owners of houses to run businesses out of those houses if they want, giving them a new market to sell their homes to also. |
Tomoh
Member
Username: Tomoh
Post Number: 113
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.205.183
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:24 am: | |
Masterblaster, I mentioned W. Vernor Hwy along with the mile roads and Ferndale because they are potentially all equally walkable and have the same limiting factors. But the Vernor intersections you mentioned are probably the most walkable in Detroit especially if you're Mexican. Tons of restaurants, bars, stores of all kinds, small grocery stores and some large grocery stores and large chain stores like CVS, Family Dollar, Auto Zone, etc.
But imagine if Bagley kept going west as a commercial district, doubling the amount of amenities available. I think the houses just west of 24th St could be converted into restaurants and shops. It's kind of a shame that Grand Blvd is a residential street. Same with Clark. Just imagine the tight neighborhood with stores and restaurants on Vernor, Porter, Bagley, Grand Blvd and Clark. There's Fort St which is little more than half a mile from Vernor but it's also separated from the neighborhood by a freeway and after Livernois, Vernor diverges from Fort and is closer to a mile away. In the Springwells area, it's a shame that Springwells is residential north of Vernor and that Central is residential south of Vernor. Vernor-Springwells-Dix-Central could have been a tight rectangle business district.
There is a danger in building low density detached homes on vacant lots on any of these potential commercial streets where right now there's the oppurtunity to build a new, denser, and more walkable Detroit. |
Boo
Member
Username: Boo
Post Number: 120
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 63.117.185.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 1:40 pm: | |
my vote goes to ferndale along nine mile- i used to walk everywhere there and they literally have one of everything nestled along the nine mile downtown strip- clothing stores, doctors, groceries, bars, restaurants, gift shops, home decor, liquore store, cigarette outlet, pharmacy, dry cleaners, coffee shops, movie theatre (well the magic bag), etc, etc. while it may not be as dense or as big as some other areas, it's hard to beat for variety. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 98
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:17 pm: | |
I think were getting confused about what "walkable" means. Having sidewalks and stores within walking range of residences is only the bare minimum. It's still almost always EASIER and FASTER to drive. Look around, even in A2 and Ferndale -- how many people do you see performing everyday chores and walking, carrying their purchases? Walkable downtowns have become more of a tourist thing in Michigan (i.e. RO) than anything. 99% of people with cars, even in a neighborhood that's "walkable" will drive because it's SO EASY TO PARK and carry your purchases home in your car rather than carry your purchases on foot. In order for walking to become the preferred mode of transit, you need a "walkable" area PLUS it has to take forvever to park AND be costly.
So I think "walkable" not just describes the physical environment but also the market forces at work. On a national level Michigan is walkable only in a very limited sense, unfoturnately. 
Only with more density, and really good mass transit will Michigan ever really be walkable (mass transit gives you another option of not carrying your purchases on foot, which is key).
Does anybody get what I'm saying? |
Jsmyers
Member
Username: Jsmyers
Post Number: 1513
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:27 pm: | |
I do, I'm just to busy to join in the discussion... |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1307
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 3:37 pm: | |
uhhh, Eastside, A2 is not very 'touristy,' just about everyone is doing there chores on foot, students and plenty of year-round residents. I bring back a couple bags of groceries a couple times a week from Village Corner, walking about 8 minutes. Nobody goes from class to coffee/lunch by hopping in a car or finding a ride, because dozens of options are within a one to five minute walk. Even if you want to make the 1/3 mile walk from the Diag to Kerrytown/Main Street, it is usually more efficient to just walk, unless a bus is close at hand. Late at night some people will use a taxi. The parking is not available enough to go point to point doing all your chores by car, except for maybe a couple low times during mid Summer. Thus, walkability by neccesity.
Now, your point is more than true for downtown Detroit. Very walkable, very pleasant to walk in most cases. But normally, unless ya live there, the only walking you'll be doing is from your parking spot to your destination, which in most cases is not very far. |
Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism
Post Number: 446
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 4:00 pm: | |
I believe you have a good point, Eastsidedog, when you mentioned market forces.
There needs to be factors that make driving overly costly and overly inconvenient, in order to force people to walk. In Michigan, and in Detroit, not going to happen. The obsession with the automobile is way too strong in this part of the country. There are already market forces that cause financial burden on some people. Car insurance, gasoline, cost of periodic car maintenance ..... Detroit is already one of the most expensive cities to own a vehicle - yet people can't part ways with their cars.
What else could be done so that people walk more ? There are already terrific ideas above as far as zoning and urban planning are concerned. Besides, walking is a good form of exercise to accomplish daily chores, without having to use a threadmill. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 100
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 4:02 pm: | |
Mackinaw, I've never lived in A2 and I didn't go to UofM so my experience there is limited. But my brother did live there and went to UofM and where he lived outside the campus core he could walk to a few places but had to have a bike to do everything (which ain't bad). A2 is probably the only thing that comes close in Michigan because of it's captive carless student population. But outside the core it seems to be pretty car based with lots of parking lots, chain restaurants, and strip malls.
My main point is that walking around a shopping/entertainment district having a nice time does not make a "walkable neighborhood." If it's not efficient to get your purchases home without a car it's more tourism than anything. Many of Michigan's downtowns lack practical businesses, for a while RO was turning into a food court. They've mitigated this by limiting the number of liquor licenses but still I rarely go walk around RO. There's mostly restaurants/bars and a few fancy upscale stores. The regular businesses in downtown RO have been getting pushed out for years (i.e. ACE Hardware, Record Time, Off the Record, etc...) in favor of pricey stores. There's just way too many damn restaurants and bars because they turn the biggest profit, followed by luxury lofts of course. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 101
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 4:12 pm: | |
Darwinism, good points but a great example of how that plan fails is the much-dreaded LA. A friend of mine lived there and said it's much like Detroit except parking is horribly scarce and expensive with city parking meters at every shopping center, even grocery stores. But STILL everyone who's not broke drives all the time and there's next to NO ONE walking on the streets.
Why? No alternative. No mass transit. Convenient mass transit is the key.
Seriously, the only thing worse than a car-dependent metropolis is a car-dependent metropolis with inconvenient parking (and horrible traffic on top of it, possibly the worst in the world). In both LA and Detroit you're driving all the time but at least in Detroit you can park. |
Spaceboykelly
Member
Username: Spaceboykelly
Post Number: 133
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.30.248
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 4:37 pm: | |
I live without a car in Midtown/Cass Corridor, and I would consider this area to be extremely walkable. I walk everywhere [not counting occasional rides with friends, or trips on the bus to get to work].
I don't walk around at 3 am, but I never walked around Ferndale at 3 am when I lived there either.
Jfried, where exactly is your neighborhood?
I can think of several 24 hour ATMs within Midtown, and I don't even use an ATM. There are many more business hour ATMs in the area too, of course.
Also, I live in what is probably the most inconvenient [walkability-wise] area of Midtown [due to my extremely low rent], however I could easily walk to: high end/low end American, Indian, Italian, Mexican, coffee shop, Middle Eastern, French, Chinese, fast food, and bar-burger joints all within 10 - 20 minutes time. While many of these aren't open all night, most everyone can walk to at least a bar-burger joint at any time.
Maybe you're new new in town, and/or aren't used to walking about as much, which is fine. I do agree that retail is sparse in Midtown, with just a couple clothing stores, a communist bookstore, a shoe store, a record shop, and a handful of other businesses to choose from. However, eating, and getting about on foot isn't much of a problem. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 103
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 4:43 pm: | |
Spaceboykelly, good post. But if you had a car would you drive? I think it's safe to say, that, most of the carless folks in my neighborhood (West Village/Islandview) would drive if they had cars. |
Jjw
Member
Username: Jjw
Post Number: 66
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.33.56.156
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 5:09 pm: | |
My votes: Mexicantown, Hamtramck, Rosedale Park, Belle Isle, downtown, Wayne State area |
Tomoh
Member
Username: Tomoh
Post Number: 115
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 152.160.38.65
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 5:38 pm: | |
Re: L.A. Both LA and Detroit are infamous for their car cultures, but LA actually does have a rapid transit system consisting of a downtown subway and regional light rail. The light rail is used, the subway not so much. The two will only get you to half of the places you want to go which means you are still encouraged to drive. For the many folks in LA without the driving option, there's also a bus system. But you see very few people walking. This could all change if the subway/light rail system is expanded to really cover the region. If LA can support light rail as spread out over numerous municipalities as it is, why can't Detroit?
In Detroit, there is a population that can't drive and they get around using the bus system which could obviously be better. But I do see a possible future where people in neighborhoods along the Woodward Corridor, with added retail along half mile streets, with a high quality light rail line to supplement a coordinated SMART/DDOT bus line, can shop, dine, learn, work, and live in the corridor without needing to get into their car (and people will begin selling their cars without hesitation) and without making any compromises.
So walkable neighborhoods with businesses no more than half a mile away in any direction go hand in hand with high quality mass transit that will take you to other such walkable neighborhoods. We should work on both although mass transit is more "all or none" than working on densifying neighborhoods throughout the city and region. Yes, even the inner ring burbs should get in on the act. |
Tomoh
Member
Username: Tomoh
Post Number: 116
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 152.160.38.65
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 5:53 pm: | |
Ann Arbor's actually a pretty good model of what's wanted. There are several small grocery stores downtown where people do walk to get their groceries. Not that all of one's shopping is done downtown but there are plenty of people who will go weeks without getting into a car. The bus system is also decent.
It helps to have a bike but that's not a bad thing at all! Biking and walking go hand in hand and they both go well with mass transit. When a walking neighborhood gets to be large and merges with other walking neighborhoods it makes sense
to bike around them. It's a good sign when you see people getting around on bikes (not just for exercise). Ann Arbor has bike racks or stands all over the core and also provides enclosed bike lockers for rent. Detroit is really lacking in these simple infrastructure improvements that would make the city more bike-friendly. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 368
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 5:58 pm: | |
Any bike thief downtown might also become a scrapper if he found some bike racks... |
Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried
Post Number: 761
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.190
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 5:59 pm: | |
spaceboy - I'm in north/central brush park. I walk/run/bike the area quite a bit, so I do know the neighborhood well. The closest walk-up atm is at the corner of mack/john r, which was broken down the day I was locked out. The next closest would be farnsworth/and woodward in macabees - not very close. while I do get out on foot pretty often, it is almost exclusively for recreation/exercise. as eastside as emphasized, any chore that I would need to accomplish would be done more efficiently by car. I'm sure I could be get by without a car, but it would involve wasting a huge amount of time on everday tasks.
I appreciate all the good descriptions of "why my neighborhood is walkable" on this thread. Every once in a while I get depressed when I see how much easier life could be in some of the cities I mentioned above - it's nice to be reminded about all the positives we have in our own neighborhoods. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 105
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 6:00 pm: | |
Whatever transit is devised needs to connect residences with workplaces. Anything else is transit tourism (ala the People Mover). Woodward doesn't have a lot of dense residential for huge stretches of it. Lines down Jefferson, Gratiot and Grand River and around Grand Boulevard would be more useful.
(Actually for about a year I took the People Mover to work but I was the extreme exception. And biking was usually faster.) |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 106
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 6:08 pm: | |
Jfried, I often feel the same way about walkability in my neighborhood (West Village/Islandview) and get a little depressed as well. It's coming. It will just take time. At least things are dense enough to eventually support it in Detroit. If you live in Troy you're fucked. It'll never be walkable becasue of it's ultra-low-density (the well kept sidewalks are really for jogging and dog walking only). If you want a good reason to walk the neighborhood more, get a dog. I've met so many neighbors and made so many connections through my furry friend. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1310
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 6:39 pm: | |
Eastsidedog, the thing is, A2 has a very large walkable core. East of main, south of the river, north of Stadium (at the very least north of Hill St.), and west of Oxford. This is more than a few square miles. A2 has its own sprawl problem, seen in the NE and NW friges and down by Huron Parkway/US23. But there is still connectivity between these places and the core through AATA buses; in addition, I'd have to say that these less walkable, more modern areas are more like crossing grounds between A2 and neighboring cities like Saline and Ypsi, so they naturally cater to shoppers with their cars.
Regarding your last post: i wonder what percentage of Troy neighborhoods even have sidewalks. Although, from my limited experiences, they do seem to have more than Bloomfield. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 109
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 6:47 pm: | |
Sidewalks in the Northern Troy area are strictly, for exercise and curb appeal. In office land (Crooks and Long Lake area) it is so low-density that the sidewalks are totally unusable as a mode of transportation. I'm not knocking Troy that's just how it is. Bloomfield is similar. Folks who live in Troy and want the walkable experience drive to Birmingham, get their fill, and then drive home.
All I'd really like from A2 is the walkability factor. They can keep everything else. Sorry, I'm not a fan of A2. Too homogenous for my taste. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 110
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.7
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 6:48 pm: | |
Also, the sidewalks in Troy are immaculate. The ones in my hood are beat to hell. I bet it's not just money but how many people walk on them. There's quite a few walkers in my hood (West Village, gotta plug it again ). |
Tomoh
Member
Username: Tomoh
Post Number: 117
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.205.183
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 10:44 pm: | |
Woodward is a dense corridor for jobs. That's why it makes sense for any light rail line. Michigan Ave makes sense in connecting to jobs in Dearborn and beyond. Jefferson, Gratiot and Grand River and Grand Boulevard would have less regional backing. Woodward doesn't need dense residential the whole way for light rail transit to be successful because you don't want to be stopping at every block. But Woodward does have the most potential for high density and that won't change without zoning changes.
Here's what I'd take from A2 and put in every neighborhood I could: the coffee shops, the non-chain restaurants, the brick sidewalks, the educated people, the boutique clothing stores as well as the American Apparels and Urban Outfitters, the students and the youths, the record stores, the book stores, the independent movie theaters, the midrise parking structures, the small block sizes in a city grid, the high tech startup companies, the highrise apartment buildings, the small grocery stores, the bicycle lanes and racks, the art galleries, the arcades, and the list goes on. All of those things could be done differently but they should all exist. I'd leave behind a lot of the NIMBYs, the anti-development anti-urban folks, the building height restrictions, the character-less houses in the middle of the city, the very institutional-looking buildings (the city hall, the federal building, some university buildings)... The list of things I'd add to Ann Arbor is for another discussion. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 1936
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.81.34
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:02 pm: | |
Mackinaw, doesn't the Grosse Pte. Farms/Detroit border on Mack Ave. (on the Detroit side) have the largest concentration of Car Dealerships in Detroit? |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 115
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.250.174.211
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:35 pm: | |
Tomoh, It's been a long time since Woodward was a dense center for jobs, well at least office/retail jobs. I can only think of one friend of mine that works on Woodward (at Compuware). Most jobs in the metro are severely scattered with a few concentrations in in OC (Troy, Southfield, Farmington Hills, Auburn etc.) and maybe Dearborn (Ford) and Warren (Tech Center). Unfortunately Downtown Detroit only has like 20% of the regional office population.
So the big question is do we want to get people to current jobs or future jobs? If light rail is built on main thouroughfares in the city/inner-burbs it would likely spur growth in those areas, but if you wanna get people to current jobs then I think commuter rail down the middle of the freeways would work best.
I'd rather see the rail. It's a better long term solution. |
Wcpo_intern
Member
Username: Wcpo_intern
Post Number: 1872
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 71.227.58.187
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 12:23 am: | |
I was hoping you guys would be talking more about where you can walk around Detroit at 11 pm to 2 am. I'm thinking of renting a place in Detroit and sometimes I like walking around for half an hour to an hour without people harrasing me or eyeing me up. Harbortown looks nice, but seems isolated and the area by the Jeffersonian looked pretty cool. Am I right? Anyone suggest any other areas. |
Drm
Member
Username: Drm
Post Number: 906
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.215.244.26
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 12:50 am: | |
Pathetic. |
Vas
Member
Username: Vas
Post Number: 510
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 71.227.90.184
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 1:28 am: | |
Jfried,
You got off easy on a relatively hostel site.
Midtown/Cass/Wayne St.??????
Walk to University foods market, walk to Avalon, walk to Majestic, walk to Comerica Bank walk, walk to the DIA and healthy, tasty food underneath.
Walk to Cass Cafe, walk to Agave, walk to the bookstore on Warren/Cass and even walk to Atlas Bistro. Walk to CVs on Warren
5pm in the burbs= 6pm in Detroit.
its still light out! Walk to the Bronx, walk to Mario's, walk to Alvins.
You may be right on the bad market options (university sucks, but restaurants/bars are pretty good
not much nature, but lots of options
don't get robbed?
Sorry bud, but it doesn't sound like you tried too much. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1313
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 1:45 am: | |
Nice A2 description, Tomoh. Sometimes i find myself wishing it was just bigger (more people and taller skyline), but it is one awesome small city. I'm really getting into it now. It is so diverse too; more culturally diverse and even politically diverse than it gets credit for. I'm always alert because there is crime, but have never shyed away from walking any stretch in the A2 core at any hour of the day or night, and this includes the neighborhood side-streets.
I agree that the shitty post-1960s low-scale apartments often thrown in by landlords among nice old frame houses does bring down some neighborhoods. I'm living in the Old Fourth Ward historic district next year though and really love the cohesive old stock of housing, historic churches, close access to academic buildings/State st. businesses, and proximity to the riverfront with its cobblestone streets and the train station. It will be even more walkable than my current spot. Oh my I'm turning into the next--oh what's his name on this forum--Citylover?
Gistok, that may very well be. From Moross to Outer Drive there is Bob Maxey new and used, a pontiac/GMC truck dealer, Meade (Pointe Dodge), Lochmoor Chysler/Jeep. That's got to be the highest concentration in the city proper. All of them really balance between marketing to/financing purchases for Detroit folk and GP clientele, and they all do well enough. |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1351
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.148.226.17
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 1:48 am: | |
Sorry to chime in late here, but I would not consider Rosedale Park to be walkable. Grand River and Fenkell are big, busy streets with very few places to cross. Grandland is a pedestrian's worst nightmare. I'd rather walk at a Troy stripmall than try and walk around that place. So unless you are nible footed or are only going to places on the side of Grand River you live on, it's not that walkable.
I forgot to mention that large portions of Rosedale Park are not within walking distance of Grand River. 1/4 mile is considered walking distance and 1/2 mile is considered biking distance.
It was my job for a few years to think about the situation in Rosedale Park, so trust me when I say it is not walkable. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 1314
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 2:32 am: | |
That's the problem with massive roads meant to carry tons of cars. This is also the problem with uniting the east and west side of midtown.
You wouldn't actually want to go to Troy instead, though, would you? |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1355
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.148.226.17
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 3:49 am: | |
Hell no. I'm just saying I feel safer walking in most suburban strip malls than I do walking in Grandland. |
Spaceboykelly
Member
Username: Spaceboykelly
Post Number: 134
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.246.30.248
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 4:30 am: | |
Jfried, I'm not trying to pick at it, but I think there's another ATM that is even closer than Mackabee's Bldg's 2 ATMS... across the street from the Magic Stick there's some sort of bank or credit union.
Also, there's an ATM or two in the Magic Stick building itself. |
Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried
Post Number: 767
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.190
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 10:12 am: | |
vas - good points, but I'm not sure if you saw that I was talking about walkability from the south end of midtown. it would take at least 20 minutes to get to those places....definitely not far, but much easier to reach by car.
spaceboy. thanks, I forgot about those two ATM's.
drm - you're not nice. |
Tomoh
Member
Username: Tomoh
Post Number: 120
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 152.160.38.65
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 1:54 pm: | |
Eastsidedog: Well, I didn't say that most jobs in the metro were in the Woodward Corridor or that the corridor didn't used to have more jobs. But unless I'm mistaken, it is still the corridor with the highest concentration of jobs as well as schools. Downtown, Midtown, New Center, and all the office and retail jobs through the burbs all the way up to Pontiac. The rest of the metro's jobs are severely scattered indeed outside of Southfield Town Center and Troy aka "Downtown Southeast Michigan" (oh god). I do think that regional rail transit should one day connect to those areas (maybe an express service using the median of the Lodge and I-75 with very few stops), including a rail line on Michigan Ave through Dearborn.
I love Midtown and see a lot of potential there and expect it to improve a lot, but you can't blame a guy for complaining that he can name every restaurant and business off the top of his head in a few seconds with all of them being spread out. Stores in the area ARE sparse. But you also expect things to be a bit more residential if you choose to live in Brush Park, am I right? The Cass Corridor suffers from too many small apartment buildings and not enough old commercial buildings where the ground floor can be used as retail. And many of those commercial buildings that do exist are being converted into lofts including the ground floor. I would have liked to see Willys Overland's ground floor turned into stores to continue the retail along Willis beyond Avalon.
That bank across from the Magic Stick is a National City Bank with drive-thru service.
Jfried, do you have a bike? |
Souldrummer
Member
Username: Souldrummer
Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 67.149.237.90
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 2:12 pm: | |
I'm looking forward to the day when the auto companies influence has been reduced and gas prices have skyrocketed. Maybe then the movers and shakers in Southeast MI will realize the errors of their ways and initiate mass transit rail along the Woodward and Mich Ave. corridors. Development will gravitate towards the lines bringing more jobs to the area and it would force/allow the many cultures to mix and form workable relationships. I would like to have the ability, one day, to move my family from Dearborn (a semi walkable downtown) to the Boston-Edison district and still have access to quality public education and services, and viable consumer options within a short distance. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7124
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 2:14 pm: | |
JFried - ATMs galore downtown which is not too far from you depending upon how North you are in Brush Park. |
Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried
Post Number: 776
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.190
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 3:37 pm: | |
you guys are missing my point. there are tons of places that can easily be biked to, but not many within convenient walking distance. I'm not one of those people who circles the mall parking lot 5 times to get a closer spot. a store being within walking distance, and a store being within "convenient walking distance" are completely different. my intent when starting this thread was to hear descriptions from people who live in neighborhoods were they can accomplish much of their life without a car. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 1377
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 4:05 pm: | |
I'd be happy to chime in, but something tells me I would catch hell from the peanut gallery.... |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 3033
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.250.8.168
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 5:07 pm: | |
Thank goodness for this warm weather and sunshine.
I took a walk down Jefferson of about a mile and a half to hit the bank and the chain drugstore.
Just got back after my walk to pick up a few things from the grocery store and visiting a few of the dogs on my route I've not visited since last fall.
"Walkability" is another of those terms I do not understand. Either you choose to walk or you do not, why is that such a difficult concept?
Any place that is relatively horizontal is "walkable" in my opinion. Would someone explain to me what a "walkable" area is other than a a horizontal plane? |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 127
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 69.220.142.7
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 5:53 pm: | |
Jams, Pedestrian-friendly is probably a better term. If you feel like your going to get hit by a car at any moment (example: Southfield Office land, I took the bus there once and tried to walk, it was deadly) then it's not "walkable." There are many degrees of "walkability" hence the fine points of this thread. |
Chitaku
Member
Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 22
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.43.107.72
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 6:24 pm: | |
Man I blame James Couzens for our city not being walkable. He vetoed the subways. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 131
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 69.220.142.7
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 6:25 pm: | |
Subways would've been the shit. Damn depression gettin' in the way. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 1569
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 68.255.240.236
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 7:13 pm: | |
Bvos, I disagree with your assessment about Rosedale not being very walkable. It is very walkable for me and anyone who lives north of Fenkell or a block or two south of Fenkell. Yes, Grand River is a busy street, but not impossible to cross, and Fenkell is only four lanes wide. There are four traffic lights between Evergreen and the Southfield Freeway along Grand River. Unlike Gratiot, Michigan, and Woodward(south of Grand Boulevard) which all have nine lanes, Grand River only has seven. The lights are timed well enough that you can cross Grand River without having to cross at those four lights mentioned above.
I'm not following your assessment of Grandland Shopping Center because if you want to go from the Fenkell side to the Grand River side, just use the sidewalk in front of the stores on the westside of the center. If you want to get to the shops on the eastside of the center, then you'll probably want to use the sidewalk on Grand River. I will admit(and maybe this is the crux of your complaint) that they could use a sidewalk in the middle of the center's parking lot to slow traffic and not have the entire lot set up simply for parking.
Living in Rosedale Park along Grand River between Evergreen and the Southfield Freeway is ideal for walking. This would be an ideal location for a retired person without a car. A large percentages of my shopping needs can be met with the stores along this stretch of Grand River.
Again, Bvos, look at the list I posted earlier about the number and kind of businesses in this area. You would be hard pressed to find this number of businesses in other areas of Detroit, with the exception of the Moross/Mack area that has a hospital, and an indoor strip mall.
(Message edited by royce on March 30, 2006) |
Tomoh
Member
Username: Tomoh
Post Number: 121
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.205.183
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 12:45 am: | |
I threw in the bike question because with one you can go about most of your life without a car even if you wouldn't want to do so by just walking. Some people may prefer to live in a neighborhood that's mostly residential but where they can take a short bike ride to a neighboring district that is densely packed with retail, where they'd get off the bike and walk around, then bike home. That's not exactly what you were asking, and maybe "most bikeable neighborhood" is for another thread.
There's many aspects to "walkability" and the pedestrian environment is one of them as Eastsidedog mentioned. There are many neighborhoods behind major roads with retail where one could walk to a strip mall, etc. But if you have to walk on roads (no sidewalks) out of a long cul-de-sac (all other routes being fenced off or private property) to finally get to a strip mall on a eight lane road and then have to cross a sea of parking lot to get to the nearest store (such was the case in one suburb I lived in behind a Kmart/Farmer Jack shopping center) then it's a very pedestrian-hostile environment. It was so bad that the poor Mexicans in my neighborhood broke a hole through the fence, leaving behind many shopping carts on the other side where they'd walk through. Walking was possible but heavily discouraged.
What's walkable? I'd say what I just described was fairly unwalkable. On the other end of the spectrum is a neighborhood where one can live on top of a store, on a block filled with storefronts, where you can go to the end of the block and turn in any direction and find more storefronts, all of them built out to the sidewalk with big glass windows, no parking lots where storefronts could be, no drive-thrus cutting through the block and no waiting minutes for lights to turn green before having to cross a wide road. Storefronts, none more than a few yards across, as far as the eye can see except for skinny roads cutting through them at regular intervals to make it easy to turn precisely to where you want to go without having to walk all the way around a huge block. |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 3034
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.79.166.90
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 1:57 am: | |
Walking, biking, taking a bus or a cab are all part of my daily life.
I just wonder why so many on this forum extol the virtues of that lifestyle, yet only walk to their cars, to drive to work or to whatever store they choose to shop, yet want "walkable".
In Metro Detroit, there is no place that is non-walkable, it's just easier to drive. |
Drm
Member
Username: Drm
Post Number: 907
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.252.71.49
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 10:33 am: | |
People would drive to Wal-Mart in the suburbs to save $5 and the stores in their "walkable" neighborhoods would go out of business. Wait, didn't that already happen? |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 134
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 2:01 pm: | |
quote:It was so bad that the poor Mexicans in my neighborhood broke a hole through the fence, leaving behind many shopping carts on the other side where they'd walk through. Walking was possible but heavily discouraged.
I like that. When it's not walkable make it walkable!
I've heard this sort of thing called "desire paths." Our environment is often laid out in a way that is inconsistent with the paths that people actually want to take. So you get paths beaten into parks, vacant lots and across medians, often at diagonals. People don't use the sidewalks when there's a shorter path between two points.
Jams, I'll have to make a hole in the huge fenced parking lot behind Riverview Hospital so I can walk over to Jefferson easier. |
Treelock
Member
Username: Treelock
Post Number: 98
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.77.166.98
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 7:59 pm: | |
I used to enjoy walking around the 'hood when I lived in Woodbridge. There was a nice, clean party store on Trumbull where the proprietors are friendly and there is NO bulletproof glass and they began stocking Bell's beer after several inquiries. You could also walk up to the sporting field at Wayne State, the grocery store on Warren, 3rd Street Saloon, Honest?John's, Avalon Breads, Cass Cafe, Twingo's, etc., or just walk around and admire the kick-ass architecture.
Now I'm in Ferndale close to 8 Mile. it's walkable, but takes 15 minutes to find a party store or 20 minutes to go to 9 Mile or to a bar. I'm hoping the burg's recent rezoning brings in some businesses to the neighborhood. |
Chitaku
Member
Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 156
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.43.107.72
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:07 pm: | |
Mack avenue has everything untill ALTER rd. |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 3136
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.250.97.177
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:39 pm: | |
I hate the term "walkable", almost as much as I hate the term "urban". Anyplace you can place one foot in front of the other is a "walkable" place. Just don't get into your car and walk to the place you want to get to. It takes a bit longer, but you get there. |
Chitaku
Member
Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 159
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.43.107.72
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:49 pm: | |
some places suck to walk, especially if there is no sidewalk. |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 3137
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.79.113.155
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 10:04 pm: | |
I wish I could find the website that explained a developer's reluctance to put in sidewalks until they saw what people chose which path to follow.
Then they designed the paths. |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1394
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 75.10.25.142
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 10:48 pm: | |
Royce,
My assessment of Rosedale Park and its walkability comes from living just a block south of Fenkell, right down the street from Grandland, in Rosedale Park as well as working for the local neighborhood development organization specifically with Grand River and its businesses.
I've walked Grand River and Fenkell hundreds of times at all different times of the day, purposely assessing the pedestrian experience every time. About the only time I ever felt safe as a pedestrian (and I'm just talking about not feeling like a car could hurtle at you any second, not from a getting mugged which has never been an issue) is from about 10 am to 12 noon. Other than that traffic is much too busy to cross Grand River without needing to dash across the street. If you have to walk a quarter mile out of your way just to cross the street at a traffic light, that's not pedestrian friendly.
As far as Grandland, yes the strip with Rite Aid, Aco, Foodland, etc. are walkable, but only if you stay on the covered sidewalk. Getting to that sidewalk from south of Fenkell is quite a feat of bravery. If one tries to venture to the Blockbuster or that new mini-mall plopped down in the middle of the parking lot, or even worse the uniform store which has no sidewalk at all, you're really putting your life at risk. No drivers ever look out for pedestrians in that parking lot, not even if you're walking from a store to your car just a few parking spaces from the strip mall itself.
The neighborhood development association is going to be constructing some streetscaping improvements this summer from a successful grant I wrote. However these improvements will be mild and cosmetic more than actual improvements from a pedestrian safety standpoint. |
Tomoh
Member
Username: Tomoh
Post Number: 152
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.176.163
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 12:43 am: | |
Bvos, congratulations on the grant. Wishin' I had the time (and was in the place) to take advantage of UofM's summer grant-writing course that's part of their Ann Arbor/Detroit summer urban studies program.
Jams, interstate highways are not walkable even though you can physically put one foot in front of the other on them. I think it's illegal. That's the extreme world we live in. |
Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd
Post Number: 582
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.214.106
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 1:57 am: | |
quote:my intent when starting this thread was to hear descriptions from people who live in neighborhoods were they can accomplish much of their life without a car.
I find downtown to be very walkable for all of my daily needs. I have a short walk to work, and there is a ton of stuff within a few blocks. I have easy access to dozens of restaurants and bars, bookstores, coffee shops, banks, barbers, post offices, clothing stores, dry cleaners, ATMs, pharmacies, party stores, movie theater, parks, small grocery markets, office supplies, stadia, theaters, clubs, and more.
Downtown is not a retail mecca, but there is still a lot of stuff within walking distance. |