  Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 17 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
St. Albertus,  Sweetest Heart of Mary and  St. Josaphat  are all Catholic Churches. What is unusual about them is that they are not just churches but cathedrals that each has a seating capacity of over 2,000 parishioners. But, that’s not the strange part, what is strange is that they are all located on Canfield St. E. within sight and walking distance of each other. Other than there being a lot of Catholics in that neighborhood at one time does anyone know why and what the story is if anything? | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 145 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.107.47.65 |
Explained here: http://detroit1701.org/StAlber tus_Hist.htm | ||
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99 Post Number: 66 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.29.97.102 |
Cathedrals are the seat of the Bishop. There is only one per diocese. (Message edited by gmich99 on March 31, 2006) | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 570 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
The wards in Detroit were thin strips of land running away from the river. Wards in old Detroit broke down along ethnic lines. If each ward/ethnicity wanted a church smack in the middle of their territory, it would make sense that they'd be along Canfield. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1361 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.38 |
They're not technically cathedrals. The only Catholic Cathedral in Detroit is the Cathedral of the Most Blessed Sacrament on Woodward in the Boston Edison neighborhood. A cathedral is the place where the pope would stay if he were to come to town as well as the central church for the archdiocese. As far as why these churches were so close together, all of these churches were affiliated with nationalities. St. Josaphat I believe was German. Sweetest Heart of Mary was a Polish church that at one time broke away from the Roman Catholic church and formed its own denomination. It was a cathedral for that denomination for a while. St. Albertus was also a Polish church and remained part of the RC. These are only three churches that you selected. I can think of three more that are also within walking distance of these churches. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1362 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.38 |
Oops, correction. They were all Polish. Apparently it was all due to infighting. Here's St. Josaphat's website with a history: http://www.gbjann.com/stjosaph at/history.htm | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 274 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Catholic churches a couple blocks away from each other is not uncommon. In Ottawa, I live within two blocks of a French Catholic church and an Irish Catholic church. Both churches are ornate and beautiful (the Irish one is crumbling, however). | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 18 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
That was too easy! I got that off of the web, too. I was hoping that with all the Detroiters on this website we could generate a little discussion with personal family stories and vignettes related to this situation. But, thanks, anyway! +<(:-)~ My interest was to "drill down" in the vernacular of the day and try to get the “human interest marrow” out of the bones. I have been in the computer business since Christ-was-a-Corporal and everybody wants instant, quick answers and gratification and then it’s on to the next thing. So, any time I have the opportunity to linger, luxuriate or just plan old drag my feet on something, anything, especially something as dear to my heart as Detroit, I do it! #:-0 So, I hope others see it that way too and we don’t drag the body out this soon saying, “Next!” I hope some discussion is generated. That’s my wish and I’m sticking to it! ^j^ | ||
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99 Post Number: 69 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.29.97.102 |
St. Joseph's across the street from Gratiot Meat Market has the largest free swinging bell in North America and has a wonderful midnight mass on Christmas Eve and is done in Latin. Historically a German church it offers masses to this day in German. Attend every Christmas Eve just for the wonderful midnight mass. Only personal church going story I have to offer about Detroit. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1289 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
A lot times infighting between in and outside of groups force those groups to build their own church and each group would try to top the others church. This happened a lot to the Italians who were denied entry into certain parishes. So they built there own. not sure if this is still true but St. Joesphat is the only latin church in the area. (Message edited by _sj_ on March 31, 2006) | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 106 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
As noted above, none of the churches referenced above are Cathedrals. The first Cathedral in Detroit was St. Annes (1833) followed by Sts Peter and Paul (1848). There was some controversy when the Jesuits took over Sts. Peter and Paul so St. Patricks became the Cathedral in 1890. This is not the current St. Patricks, but rather a prior incarnation. It, like the 1833 version of St. Annes no longer exists. I believe it burned and that it was originally located around or just south of the the DMC. Blessed Sacrament became the cathedral in 1951. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3501 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 192.220.139.21 |
Jewish jjaba always enjoyed the bazaars at St. Brigid Catholic Church on Schoolcraft and Ohio Sts. Facade by Parducci, 1950. (New Church) That's all jjaba knows from Catholic Churches. In his neighborhood, you were either Catholic or public. Catholics and Publics. jjaba, Proudly Westsider. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2281 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 128.36.108.81 |
As others have written, re. Roman Catholic churches the term cathedral refers to the church which os the seat of the archdioscese. (The archbishop's parish.) (Think of that as kind of analagous to a state capital). Those giant east side catholic churches may look gloriously "cathedral"-like but in the RC use of the term it is inappropriate. Re those churches, you have to remember the churches in these heavily immigrant neighborhoods back then represented not ONLY places of worship, they were also centers of education, community outreach, social services and even housing. A large impressive edifice represented stability in what had to be a scary an chaotic Detroit to immigrant families. Further, the decades bracketting the turn of the century were a period of pretty strong anti-catholic sentiment (kinda like the antihispanic bias nowadays). Building magnificent churches in this period (even in modest working class parishes, such as these eastside ones) were a not so subtle way to reinforce a sorta "we're here, we're queer, get used to it" sentiment (to mix my time periods and imply odd analogies). Or, better yet, kinda like waving a big assed mexican flag in a pro immigration rally except outta bricks and mortar and meant to last centuries. God Bless America! | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 440 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 64.79.90.206 |
Jjaba is right - Catholics or publics. When I got older I said "Catholics or Protestants." Lately, however, my brother corrected me and said that "Protestant" is a bias word. So, I guess, to include Jjaba, the word is non-Catholic but that seems so triumphant - that the world is divided into Catholics and everyone else! I'm not sure that the story of the building of Sweetest heart of Mary is so much a story of factions within a church as it is the story of a charismatic and compelling personality's effect on a congregation. The pastor of St. Albertus was hugely charismatic and he had passionate followers and detractors. His followers determined to start a new parish after he was removed from St. Albertus. He and his parishioners were absolutely forbidden to build a church - but they did so anyway. In those days, no one considered building a cheap little edifice for worship - that's why they are so big. When the congregation started to build, the Bishop put the congregation under "interdict" a hugely serious punishment for a church. The priest could not say Mass (legally), no infants could be baptized, no marriages sacramentalized, no communions, no confirmations, no last sacraments, no church funerals. Eventually, with the church built (a fait accomli) and the Pastor anxious to be forgiven, the matter got settled up. The congregation, famously, kept title to the building. This was not typical. Almost all the other churches are owned by the Bishop in a "corporation sole" arrangement. Interestingly, the only other local church to suffer an interdict was also Polish - St. Hedwig in SW Detroit. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1941 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.24.212 |
"Cathedra" is the Latin word for bishops chair. In Catholic tradition a cathedral is the head church of a diocese or an archdiocese (head church of a bishop or archbishop). Although Most Blessed Sacrament Cathedral on Woodward in Boston-Edison is the cathedral of the Archdiocese of Detroit, there are other cathedrals in Detroit for other Christian denominations. (Message edited by Gistok on March 31, 2006) | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 435 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 172.168.9.80 |
Jjaba lived the history. In pre white-flight 20th Century Detroit and in other heavily Catholic cities, the little kids only knew from Catholics and publics. Many a child would wonder if the public kids always had to go public church on Sundays. If the neighborhood also had Jewish kids, it would make things really difficult to figure out for the Catholics. Church on Saturday was an incomprehensible concept. | ||
Mccarch Member Username: Mccarch Post Number: 65 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.230.12.80 |
Truly, the internet is the source of all disinformation. 1. None of the three churches are cathedrals. 2. St. Josaphat's, I know, does not seat 2,000 people. 3. Ethnic groups clustered in neighborhoods, but the "ribbon-farm" wards did not shape these geographical clusters. 4. St. Josaphat is not the only church that has Mass in Latin; St. Joseph, for one, also has Mass in Latin. 5. Blessed Sacrament became the cathedral in 1939, not 1951. 6. The facade of St. Bridgid's was designed by its architects, Diehl & Diehl; Parducci did the architectural sculpture. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 572 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
Great way to make a lot of friends here, Mccarch. | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1248 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.57 |
Re: When Blessed Sacrament became the Cathedral... "In 1938, a new era dawned. Detroit had been elevated to an archdiocese the previous year and its spiritual leader, Archbishop Edward Mooney, recognized the need for a new cathedral to accommodate a growing Catholic population. In January of 1938, the Archbishop petitioned Rome to designate Blessed Sacrament as the archdiocesan cathedral, saying, "…it is well located on Woodward Avenue, the principal street of the city…the church is an imposing Gothic structure which for beauty of design and distinction of ornament would rank well among the cathedrals of the country." Pope Pius XI concurred with Archbishop Mooney's assessment and granted his petition to make Blessed Sacrament the cathedral for the Archdiocese on February 20, 1938." For the whole story: http://www.aodonline.org/AODOn line/Offices+and+Ministries+12 009/Cathedral+of+the+Most+Bles sed+Sacrament+8330/Most+Blesse d+Sacrament+Cathedral+-+The+Ca thedral+Builds+Again.htm | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 573 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
That's the one on the corner of Trowbridge, right? Beautiful church. Also, IIRC, during the summer, it has one of the most beautiful lawns in the city. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 423 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
In my Meyers-Schoolcraft neighborhood, the families were indeed Catholic or Public. I like that. We all got along fine with each other and no problem, except that we went to different schools. I think it was this closeness we had that causes me to still puzzle over the friction in Northern Ireland. Me? I was raised Lutheran, but never thought much of religion. Still don't. Bona Fide Agnostic, I am, which is a word used to describe a chicken-shit Athiest. I always leave an out. | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 2850 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.209.138.61 |
Mccarch offers some good clarifications, although he doesn't quite get us there. RE: the latin Masses. St. Josaphat is the only church with the bishop's okay to offer the Tridentine Mass, which is in latin. Quite a few other churches throughout the archdiocese offer Masses in latin, but they are not the Tridentine Mass. They are simply the Novus Ordo in latin. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3507 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
McCarch, jjaba knows that Diehl and Diehl built St. Brigids. Carrado Parducci did the architectural sculptures on the facade. (1950) This is a large church for the lot, having replaced a 1920s smaller building. In 1950, the school was full and the church was busy too. Sorry for your confusion. The neighborhood was what the Govt. calls white but we were from all over that white world; Croats, Greeks, Armenians, Lutherans, Catholics, Italians, Germans, Bohemians, Lebanense, Jews from a dozen countries, and your basic Scotch-Irish-English-Canadian- French white folks. Then, kaboom, in the 1960s they all moved and left the neighborhood for Black People. Today, it is still a nice stable neighborhood. Credit the old families with building Livonia. Ray1936, is that about right? Back jjaba's ass. jjaba. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1320 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Good info Mccarch and H_Steve. One Cathedral--Woodward and Boston. Many huge parish churches, representative of Detroit's massive Catholic population at one time. The area Livedog's photos document tells more about Detroit's history than perhaps any other place. All the empty lots and housing projects where there used to be a dense neighborhood housing the immigrants who made these parishes packed, and put forth great money to make them as grand as they are. The churches in this area are one of my favorite aspects of Detroit. H_steve, there are tons of politics from the Vatican straight down to the AOD regarding how much the Tridentine should be offered. St. Joseph and St. Mary in Greektown both offer Novus Ordo Latin masses, and I'm sure they'd go Tridentine if they were given the chance. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1321 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
St. Brigid's is an interesting looking place. But I bet Jjaba didn't know that the Diehl's also built St. Clare at Mack and Outer Drive. (east side) | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 3508 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 67.160.138.107 |
Oh, hell no. jjaba still doesn't know where Mack Ave. and E. Outer Drive meet. Are the churches similar and from 1950? jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1324 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
That's what I assumed haha. St. Clare was completed in 1950 pretty sure. I never saw the inside of St. Brigid. St. Clare is in a sweeping Mediterranean style with sandstone and a tile roof, very airy inside with a wide nave and transepts. Been bastardized over the last decade, however. | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1250 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.57 |
According to its cornerstone, St. Clare was built in 1951. St. Clare of Montefalco is my home parish. All five kids in our family were baptized there; my two sisters and I were married there. We all attended the school too. George Diehl, the namesake grandson, was one of my classmates. But I didn't learn about Diehl & Diehl until much later. For jjaba... St. Clare of Montefalco   Parducci sculpture on the church exterior  Detail  Main Altar  | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 1945 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.129.165 |
Jjaba, Mack and E. Outer Drive is the eastern terminus of Detroit's longest street, its outer "Ringstrasse". Unlike the west side (downriver), the eastern terminus of Outer Drive doesn't go all the way to the river. It ends at Mack and turns into Whittier, a narrower residential street that is the border between Grosse Pointe and Grosse Pointe Park, down to Jefferson. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1326 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Sorry, Gistok, but Cadieux divides the City of Grosse Pointe from Grosse Pointe Park. Everything between Cadieux and Whittier, which includes such awesome streets as Bishop, Yorkshire, and Kensington, are solidly in GPP. Kathleen, SC-M is my home parish as well (when I'm at home). However, I've been lured away to other parishes in Detroit which offer the Latin Mass, and some recent developments at SC-M have made me unhappy. What do you think of the renovations from the latter days of Fr. McCormick?? | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1092 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.192.116.174 |
Holy family, next to Blue Cross, of 75 also offers mass in Latin That place is a favorite for some more "Well known" powerful italian folk... When Vatican II was being implemented, they wanted to remove the Altar, which several "parissioners" did not approve, which decision was quickly reversed... for some (caugh) unknown reason... They really like the traditional mass and language there, although it is still Novus Ordo but in Latin. There is a Catholic sect that still offers latin masses in the Metro Area, but recent action from the Cardinal in this area has driven them fairly underground. Several members of this group spearheaded the movement for a Latin mass sanctioned by the church, since practicing the tritentine mass within the confines of the Detroit Archdiocese was illegal under Cannon law, and Mida refused to budge. In the 1980s however, John Paul II signed a law that the tritentine mass cannot be refused to catholics that wish to have it. Mida's disregaurd for this prompted several members of that sect to write letters to the Pope asking for his intervention. Within months, a representitive of the pope contacted Mida and told him that there is sufficiant support for a tritentine mass in the area and that it must be offered immediatly. Within a month, St. Josephats was named as the designated parish, and a priest trained in the rite was obtained. interesting to me, many of my family and friends were members of that sect for many years that pushed and wrote letters that brought the tritentine mass back. | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1251 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.57 |
Mackinaw, We too don't get back to St. Clare very often as we live in Royal Oak and have attended local parishes here with our sons for many years. For the past few years though, we've been attending mass at the older churches throughout the city. That said, I don't care much for some of the changes that I've seen at St. Clare. But apparently that is the way of many churches these days. Even in the church we attended for many years here in Royal Oak, there have been renovations made by the pastor that many do not agree with. That certainly did play into our decision to attend mass at other churches, but so did our desire to learn more about Detroit's Catholic Church history and art and architecture. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1327 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
Yep, I do much the same as you, just trying to value all the nice churches within Detroit. Alexei, yeah I almost forgot about Holy Family. They are very strictly Italian/Latin masses I believe. | ||
65memories Member Username: 65memories Post Number: 248 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.74.30.26 |
Down the street from Sweetest Heart of Mary is Sacred Heart (Mack at I-75) Sacred Heart is the first predominately Black Catholic parish in the city. Starting with a group of Black Catholics at St. Marys in Greektown in 1911, who were not allowed to worship in the church, the group bought a small Episcopal church near St. Antoine and Mack and named it St. Peter Claver. The small parish thrived. When the German parishioners at Sacred Heart moved out during the 1930's, the Archdiocese gave Sacred Heart to the parishioners of St. Peter Claver. http://sacredheartdetroit.com/ | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 19 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
My father was baptized at St. Albertus Catholic Church in March of 1919. In 1978 after his untimely death I went down to St. Albertus which was still an active parish to get a copy of his Baptismal Certificate and got more, much more. The Pastor at the time was Rev. Joseph J. Matleng and he was very knowledgeable about St.Albertus Parish history. We had a very nice conversation about the parish and talked about some of the highlights of the past. Fr. Matleng took me into the record room where the entire parish records were kept and pulled out the information about my father’s Baptismal. He had written me a Baptismal Certificate that I still have today. Then we started talking about what a great writer and keeper of records the Catholic Church is. That’s when he went back into the records and showed me the detailed records of my whole family that was part of the St. Albertus Parish back in those early days. He pulled a journal out that showed exactly how much my grandparents gave as an offering on each Sunday, holidays and Special Offerings. I happened to notice that when Fr. Matlenga pulled the information concerning my father’s Baptismal Sacrament that there was information about my father’s marriage to my mother and his death. I knew my father did not belong to St. Albertus Parish after he was a very little child so I couldn’t figure out why or how St. Albertus had the information about these additional two Sacraments. So, I asked Fr. Matlenga and he said that wherever a person is Baptized becomes that person’s Home Parish or Parish of Record. And, that as further Sacraments are administered at different parishes those parishes list the Sacraments in their records and the Parish of Records, too. I thought that was pretty amazing and a testament to the thoroughness of the Catholic Church’s record keeping. They also send a copy of the records to the nearest Synagogue just in case! +<(:-) | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 28 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 12.45.2.184 |
Any pics of the huge catholic church on Woodward N. of Boston-edison ? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1332 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 141.213.173.94 |
This being the Cathedral (one and only) that was mentioned earlier... Cathedral of the Most Blessed Sacrament: http://www.aodonline.org/AODOn line/Offices+and+Ministries+12 009/Cathedral+of+the+Most+Bles sed+Sacrament+8330/Most+Blesse d+Sacrament+Cathedral+-+Photos +by+Balthazar+Korab.htm | ||
Elevator_fan Member Username: Elevator_fan Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2004 Posted From: 65.42.41.61 |
The story Alexei relates is inaccurate. Having been intimately involved in the St. Josaphat Tridentine Mass negotiations for many years, I know much of what happened. The "sect" of which he speaks had nothing to do with the process. Canon Law was not relevant to the situation. Indeed, a fruitless Canon lawsuit was filed by a single individual many years ago who had no affiliation with that group. Sadly, the letters that so many people wrote to the Cardinal did not carry much influence. Yes, a Vatican official ultimately forced the Cardinal's hand. But his action was simply the straw that broke the camel's back after extensive negotiations by several other parties spanning a two year period. Nothing happened "within months." A book could, and maybe should, be written about this experience. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1373 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.148.226.17 |
Ah yes. Nothing like a little brotherly love. Christians are so good at that. | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 83 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.43.107.72 |
Blessed Sacrement is N of Boston Edison on Woodward. I was just at a wedding there, im not a catholic but it was a nice church |
