Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Detroit Greenways Survey Previous Next
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Kbkav
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Username: Kbkav

Post Number: 222
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.31.248
Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 10:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's a survey at http://www.detroitmi.gov/pland evl/advplanning/green/ regarding planned greenways in Detroit. Also, some really comprehensive maps. I encourage everyone to take the survey.
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1366
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.148.226.17
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 3:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a pretty major commitment from PDD to create a website for greenways. I can't think of too many projects they've done this for. Any idea how serious the city seems to be taking this project (ie. putting money behind actual projects)?

I took the survey.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 978
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 198.208.159.20
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 9:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I took the survey :-)

any way to make the maps bigger?, its hard to see the maps in detail. otherwise, awesome!
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Haydenth
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Username: Haydenth

Post Number: 18
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 67.107.50.35
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 10:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Survey Taken.

What exactly is the status on the Midtown Greenway? Last I heard the UCCA seems to be heading the initiative for a greenway that would loop in the block between Woodward and Cass / Kirby and Warren. I recall reading construction starts in Summer of 06 somewhere but I have not heard anything, really.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 139
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 69.220.142.7
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 1:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't understand what's wrong with biking or jogging on sidewalks. These greenways are reminiscent of open space and pedestrain walkways from the 1960's.

I just have this feeling that it won't be long before people are calling them muggerways.

I'd much rather have bike lanes.
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Corktownmark
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Username: Corktownmark

Post Number: 174
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 141.217.12.135
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 2:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

don't know when was the last time ANY crime occured on the Peoplemover but "people" still talk about it as though it isn't safe to ride... Don't think we can stop what "people" will say. Completing these plans would go a long way to restoring the walkable (bike?) able city.
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Machoken
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Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1178
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.145.38.104
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 2:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I don't understand what's wrong with biking or jogging on sidewalks.




For a start:

1. Drivers aren't looking for bikers to be crossing driveways and streets when the bikers are on the sidewalk.
2. Bikers on the sidewalk are a hazard to pedestrians, unless you're biking as slowly as people are walking.
3. Sidewalks are generally cement, which is killer on a runner's knees. Greenways tend to be asphalt or gravel.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 147
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 69.220.142.7
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 2:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Corktownmark, you've gotta be kidding. It's only flying in Detroit because there so many vacant land and because Levin has sway. Greenways are a waste of space, time and money. Give me a real urban environment, not some greenie, yuppie shit.
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Corktownmark
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Username: Corktownmark

Post Number: 176
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 141.217.12.135
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 3:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

nope not kidding ESD. thanks for checking though. You right without the available vacant land some of this stuff would not be possible. If Michigan ave had the traffic it was designed for that part of the project would not be possible either.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 150
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 69.220.142.7
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 6:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

For a start:

1. Drivers aren't looking for bikers to be crossing driveways and streets when the bikers are on the sidewalk.
2. Bikers on the sidewalk are a hazard to pedestrians, unless you're biking as slowly as people are walking.
3. Sidewalks are generally cement, which is killer on a runner's knees. Greenways tend to be asphalt or gravel.




1. This is because there's so few bikers. It's just a hazard of riding a bike where most everyone drives. Live with it.

2. There's almost no pedestrians on the sidewalks in Detroit.

3. Run on the grass at a park or in a gym.

This is a ridiculous waste IMO. No one will be using these things. Just wait. They will be as sparse as the People Mover. 5 million for nothing but marketing eye-candy crap. The landscaping will be overrun with litter in a year.

Sorry, to be negative but we could use the 5 million for something real in Detroit, at the least bike lanes on the main thoroughfares.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 575
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 209.69.221.253
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 6:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Adding to the dischord, there are bikers who are opposed to bike paths and instead promote what they call "vehicular cycling."
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Fishtoes2000
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Username: Fishtoes2000

Post Number: 90
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.14.26.135
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 7:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This planning is not all about bike paths. I expect most of the resulting facilities will be bike lanes.

What's wrong with biking on sidewalks? According to one study your 180% more likely to be hit by a car if traveling with traffic or 350% if traveling against. That's why it's not recommended.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1525
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 7:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Sorry, to be negative but we could use the 5 million for something real in Detroit, at the least bike lanes on the main thoroughfares.



That is exactly what a huge part of this will likely be.

Streetscape improvements and pocket parks are another big part.

Dedicated linear paths like the Dequinder cut or the riverfront are a small part of it.
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Kbkav
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Username: Kbkav

Post Number: 223
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.215.255.213
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 7:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A lot of the routes on the map are bike lanes. Greenways include many different types of paths & lanes, some very urban, some "green" depending on the location. They aren't being designed in one broad brush, but neighborhood by neighborhood - plus, each of the projects under development has had lots of public input from the actual community that will be utilizing the greenways.

FYI: biking on sidewalks is illegal. It's actually safer to bike in the road with or without bikelanes defined, although bike lanes certainly increase visibility.

Haydenth - tomorrow's Model D has an update on the Midtown Greenlink.

Postscript: Some of these responses are super-typical of the forum these days. Why don't you post your opinions where they actually matter (LIKE THE ACTUAL SURVEY) instead of just bitching on the forum about "muggerways" and other such worthless shite.
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1535
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.250.205.35
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 8:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everyone who thinks it is a waste clearly does not bike for recreation. Sure, it's fun to bike through a neighborhood or whatever, but it's a huge drag to have to load up your bike in your car to get to any sort of decent bike path, which is pretty much what you have to do here in Mich.

Washington DC is a great example of a city with fantastic greenways. You can go all over the area on beautiful bike paths. It's actually a great mode of transportation there because there is little threat from vehicular traffic. And the greenways there connect. I used to bike from my apartment near Dupont Circle all the way out to Mount Vernon, going past the Mall and the memorials there, through Old Town Alexandria, Virginia, and all along the Potomac. It was a fantastic way to spend an afternoon, you could stop along the way and grab lunch or meet up with friends (unlike at a Metropark here) and there were always a lot of people doing the exact same thing.

For an area that is one of the most un-fit in the country, I'd think most people would find this a no-brainer. I'd recommend to the naysayers on here that they do a little more looking into how greenways work before they start flappin' their gums.

And for the record, I did post my opinions in the survery! :-)
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Fishtoes2000
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Username: Fishtoes2000

Post Number: 91
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.14.26.135
Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 10:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With a little work, I think Detroit could have some of the best urban biking in the U.S. We have road infrastructure built for 2 million. Having extra road capacity makes bike lanes relatively easy to implement.

And the benefits of bike lanes are they (1) encourage B-level cyclists (new and less experienced) and (2) make it easier to determine routes to get where you want to go.

I never realized the second point until last summer when my girlfriend wanted to drop her car off for service in Ferndale and bike to Royal Oak. I told her to head east until she saw the bike lane and follow it north to Royal Oak. Very simple. Without the Ferndale bike lanes, I would have given her a very circuituous route through neighborhood streets to avoid major roads like Hilton.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 152
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.251.227.240
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 12:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kbkav, I took the survey and gave them my three cents.

I'll have to admit that I wasn't aware of the bikelanes element of the Greenways thing. I'm familiar with the Dequindre cut plan (which I think is silly, it should be commuter rail like it used to be). This thing going around the Wayne State Area err "Midtown", I'll have to wait and see. I'm just skeptical of "open space" and pocket parks, who's going to maintain and police these places, cut the grass?

I tried to see the plan in the survey but it was all pixelated and impossible to read bad goverment web design.

In the end, as long as the city doesn't have to pay anything for it, the well I guess it's all better than empty lots.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1336
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 12:46 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On the website itself (as opposed to the survey) you can open blown-up pdf versions of those maps which are very detailed.

Those maps show inhabitated/vacant lots with a color code. Part of the east side east of the DCX plant, north of Jefferson, and south of Mack in almost completly shaded in green, and it really emphasizes the emptiness.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 154
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.251.227.240
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 12:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Those maps show inhabitated/vacant lots with a color code. Part of the east side east of the DCX plant, north of Jefferson, and south of Mack in almost completly shaded in green, and it really emphasizes the emptiness.




Mackinaw, I know I live nearby. I'll be sure to check out the PDFs.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 156
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.251.227.240
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 1:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, I've read some more but I'm still suspicious of "Open Space Inititaives" and "Urban Trails." These types of amorphous open spaces have been well documented to be the bane of cities. Underused parks often breed crime. We already have more parks than needed for our population and we're building more?

What Detroit needs is "Closed Space Initiatives."
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1337
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 141.213.173.94
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 2:08 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point. Whether it be vacant neighborhood lots or downtown parking lots, we need infil. But I think that this will be useful in creating codified and useful walkways in places that they are practical, like the Dequindre Cut and riverfront...if we could make commuter routes like Jefferson and Woodward more walkable/bike-able, that would also be a victory.
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Kbkav
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Username: Kbkav

Post Number: 225
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.31.248
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 3:19 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sorry i don't know how to do the quote function....

eastsidedog: "I'll have to admit that I wasn't aware of the bikelanes element of the Greenways thing. I'm familiar with the Dequindre cut plan (which I think is silly, it should be commuter rail like it used to be)."

The Dequindre Cut plan leaves room for future rail development.
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1540
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.187.234
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 3:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

sorry i don't know how to do the quote function....

eastsidedog: "I'll have to admit that I wasn't aware of the bikelanes element of the Greenways thing. I'm familiar with the Dequindre cut plan (which I think is silly, it should be commuter rail like it used to be)."

The Dequindre Cut plan leaves room for future rail development.




And? No one is even considering building commuter rail currently - there or anyplace else. So it's not like that use was entirely dismissed as an option.
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Fishtoes2000
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Username: Fishtoes2000

Post Number: 92
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.14.26.135
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 12:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

who's going to maintain and police these places, cut the grass?



It's a good question in these days of tight budgets, not just in Detroit but across Michigan. There've been some rumblings of creating a trust fund who's interest would pay operating expenses for Detroit trails. In many places, volunteer groups often handle the basic maintenance.

(Message edited by fishtoes2000 on April 04, 2006)
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Corktownmark
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Username: Corktownmark

Post Number: 178
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 141.217.12.135
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 1:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is also a truck traffic survey at the site. I took that one too. Along Rosa Parks and also on Bagley there is a truck traffic issue. We have plenty of freeway in the D. we really need the big trucks to find the nearest enterance ramp and avoid going through residential areas.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 158
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 2:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit taxpayers will be pissed if they find out they have to pay to maintain these greenways. With talk of the Rec and Health Departments being eliminated there is no way Kilpatrick will spring for maintenance of the greenways. Relying on volunteers is noble and all but it won't be what it takes to maintain this massive initiative. If that's what ends up happening count on the greenways through nice neighborhoods being well kept and the greenways going through the more desolate areas being totally neglected and trash-ridden. Sorry, but this is just what I see happening.

What is the plan to maintain the Dequindre Cut greenway which they are already building?

Again, I'm sorry, but as a tax paying Detroit resident this whole initiative feels hoisted upon the city, the Greenway Initiative's marketing is great (few people are going argue with something called a "greenway", it sounds so earthly and environmentally responsible) but look at the reality.
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Kbkav
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Username: Kbkav

Post Number: 229
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.212.30.112
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 2:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Dequindre Cut will be maintained by the Riverfront Conservancy.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 3046
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.218.157.85
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 2:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eastsidedog,
Why so much opposition to a proposal, that has the probability of becoming an asset to the City at large?

As an avid bicycler and walker, these plans add safer options for either. Selfishly, I realize, a path that I can easily navigate from the River to Eastern Market without dealing with cars and main roads would be ideal for me. I would much rather bike or walk in an area of trees and plants and avoid busy roads, especially on hot summer days.

An added benefit in my opinion, easy access to paths,recreational areas and greenways could, I emphasis "could", help attract families with children, or retain couples starting their families.

The word "Urban" is thrown around this site as if it were sacred, but there is room in our City for proposals such as this one. What would NYC be without Central Park? I'd guess few would deny NYC as an "Urban" area.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 161
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 2:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kbkav, ah that makes sense. But the rest?
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1526
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 2:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

And? No one is even considering building commuter rail currently - there or anyplace else. So it's not like that use was entirely dismissed as an option.



Yes they are:
http://www.annarbordetroitrapi dtransitstudy.com/

Eastsidedog, you are getting there, but I still don't think you are quite following what these maps are showing.

Many of these greenways will require no more upkeep than the current streets. The Connor Creek and Dequinder greenways are notable exceptions.

As for it being a massive initiative. It is a massive plan, but it is also a wish list. I don't think anybody who is working on that plan will tell you that all of it will ever get built, nor will most of it get built in a few decades. It helps everybody get to someplace (in the sense of an end vision), instead of all wandering around without direction.
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1546
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.250.205.35
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 2:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Building a commuter rail in the Dequindre Cut, I meant. To clarify.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 162
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 3:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jsmyers, I guess the greenways and city web sites are just misleading, at least to me. There's not a lot out there summing up exactly what the plan is. I hope this turns out to be a benefit and not a drag on the city. I hope the off-road portions see regular use but I'm highly skeptical. I'm just so skeptical of "open space initiatives" as the greenways web site calls it. I'm skeptical of plans to add extremely un-urban elements to big cities, like trails and such. The De-urbanization of America bothers me alot. Granted much of Detroit is already de-urbanized, but I'd rather see re-urbanization than "country-fication" of the city (that's what this initiative looks like to me). It's also important to note that the greenways initiative's web site sites the main purpose of the greenways to be "recreation and conservation" not transportation.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 3049
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.218.157.85
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 3:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

It's also important to note that the greenways initiative's web site sites the main purpose of the greenways to be "recreation and conservation" not transportation.




Agreed, but you'll find a very small minority that bike or walk to destinations or work, those activities are relegated to "exercise or recreation". A while back, I worked in Ferndale and regularly rode my bike to and from West Village, my co-workers were astounded. I was astounded they paid bucks to drive to a gym so they could use a stationary bike or a treadmill.

I would have loved to have alternative routes, dedicated to bikers, walkers, and runners for at least part of my daily commute.

If you want a "walkable, Urban enviornment" you need some "carrots" to get others to forego jumping in a car to drive 3 or 4 blocks to pick up their vitamins for a healthy life.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 164
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 6:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, so apparently my taxes will be paying for this. Great. I have to say that I'm on the side of Sia Robinson.

http://michigancitizen.com/def ault.asp?sourceid=&smenu=1&twi ndow=&mad=&sdetail=2854&wpage= 1&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&ccat m=&restate=&restatus=&reoption =&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebe d=&rebath=&subname=&pform=&sc= 1070&hn=michigancitizen&he=.co m
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Machoken
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Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1189
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.85.155.145
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 8:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

1. This is because there's so few bikers. It's just a hazard of riding a bike where most everyone drives. Live with it.

2. There's almost no pedestrians on the sidewalks in Detroit.

3. Run on the grass at a park or in a gym.




1. I think fishtoes addressed that one appropriately.
2. True in some areas.
3. This one I take issue with. There are only two parks in the CofD that have enough acreage for this to be plausible. Most runners like to run from their door, not have to drive to a destination to run.

Greenways are a huge quality of life issue. Sure, your taxes will be paying for it, but adding quality of life amenities should help draw more people into the city, increasing the tax base, and hopefully decreasing the percentage of your taxes going towards this.

Of course unless you believe Edward Glaeser. https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/69907.html?1144364516
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Dougw
Member
Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1069
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 136.1.1.101
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 3:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you're overreacting here, Eastsidedog. The total cost may be $50 million, but that's over the course of 20 years. Also, my understanding is that they want to get grants so that it is as close to free as possible. For example they already have a $9 million grant from the one foundation. A few more grants like that and the whole thing is paid for... I think that's probably what the city is shooting for.

Also, if you look at the maps, the majority of the "greenways" are really bike lanes... these are essentially free, it's just a matter of designating space on the roads (which we have lots of).

I personally agree with you that bike lanes should be a higher priority overall than specially developed greenways. For example, on the east side the maps list both East Jefferson (bike lane) and the Grand Trunk line (greenway) as potential future routes. As an east sider, I think the E Jefferson route should be a much higher priority, and when I attended the Greenways meeting on Belle Isle I put in my vote as such. That bike lane can connect us to downtown and also to the riverwalk lane, which I'm really looking forward to. (The whole riverwalk thing is basically free since it's paid for by the riverfront conservancy. I think of it as a lot like Riverside Park in Manhattan.)


quote:

A while back, I worked in Ferndale and regularly rode my bike to and from West Village, my co-workers were astounded. I was astounded they paid bucks to drive to a gym so they could use a stationary bike or a treadmill.



LOL. Great post Jams. :-)
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Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried

Post Number: 789
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.47.87.96
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 12:49 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

greenways are not for "real detroiters." greenways only belong in the gated communities that are being build everywhere in this city. real detroiters live in single family homes, walk to liquor stores in west village, and keep it real. church.

signed, eastside dog.

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