Discuss Detroit Ľ Archives - Beginning January 2006 Ľ Ukrainian Workers Home Detroit/Hamtramck Border ??? ę Previous Next Ľ
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Livedog2
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Post Number: 45
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 1:45 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone have any information about this building? I can't find and address on the building but it is on the corner of Carpenter St. and Mitchell St. It's on the Detroit or north side of the street directly across from the Hamtramck/Detroit border in the 48212 zip code.

The banner of the building says, "Ukrainian Workers Home" which makes it intreguing to say the least. Here are a couple of photos of the building -- one of the full building the other a close-up of the banner.

It's a wonderfully built, pleasingly esthetic and sturdy building that will last longer than any of these non-descript stripe malls they're putting up these days.

uwh

uwh2

Livedog2
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Hectop99
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Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 136.2.1.103
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 7:00 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was called the Ukrainian-American Center and was primarily used as a cultural center for the Ukrainian community in the Hamtramck-Detroit area. Inside were meeting rooms, a stage and concert venue and even a bar. It was active probably from the 1950s through the early 1990s. There were many Ukrainian events held in there (some that I participated in); the building was sold to North Detroit General Hospital, but was really never utilized by the hospital. Since the hospital went under, the building has been empty. Much of the Ukrainian community has moved to the Warren/Sterling Heights area and a new Ukrainian Cultural Center was built in Warren.

As a student at WSU, we threw quite a few hall parties in this place and bands like Negative Approach even played a few shows in there.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3550
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 7:19 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hectop99, excellent first post. Welcome to the Forum. You are just the right one for this question.

jjaba, Westsider.
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Toolbox
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Post Number: 881
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.125.129
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 7:31 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

2961 Carpenter

NA at The Ukrainian-American Center
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 3554
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Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 7:38 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's one wild and crazy Ukrainian.

jjaba.
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Livedog2
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Post Number: 46
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Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 7:53 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think he was the Pastor at Immaculate Conception! +<(:-)~

Livedog2
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 149
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 4.229.141.119
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 8:54 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Toolbox, were you at that show? I was. Can't say I remember the building though. I just remember not liking SSD. :-)
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 567
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.212.169.194
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 9:16 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congrats Hectop, on your first post. Straight from the East side!
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Livedog2
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Post Number: 48
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Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 9:23 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Hectop99 and Toolbox for the information.

Congratulations on your 1st post Hectop99 and welcome!

I looked for a cornerstone with a date but couldn't find one.

Livedog2
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 3557
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Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 1:23 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ukrainian American Center, call. 248-852-1570.

In the 1950s, post-WWII immigrants joined together to create a center at the Immaculate Conception Ukrainian Catholic Church School on Grayling St. in Hamtramck. They started with classes, table tennis, and chess matches.
Ukrainian Red Wings would visit. Stars such as Terry Sawchuk, Vic Stasiuk, and Tony Leswick.

In 1962, they bought a bldg. on Davison in Detroit.

In 1978, they bought the Carpenter St. property in Hamtramck.

In 1985, they moved out to Warren, Michigan. (Ryan Road)
They love the sports. Soccer, chess, table tennis, volleyball, tennis, hockey, track, skiing, bowling, golf.

The Detroit area Ukrainian community is 33,000 people. They have been in Detroit since early 1900s. They had lived near their church on the Westside, Cicotte Street. Many went to Chadsey High School. In 1930, one-third of Hamtramck High School was Ukrainian. Many families have long roots in the auto plants.

Today, the largest community is in Macomb County near their center on Ryan Rd. Others live scattered like most ethnic minmorities in Detroit area.

Other big populations of Ukrainians in the USA are Pittsburgh (settled out miners), Chicago and Southern California.

jjaba.
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Livedog2
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Post Number: 51
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Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 2:04 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You go, Jjaba!

What a great post and so informative.

Ukrainian Flag

Livedog2
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Fury13
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Post Number: 1011
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Posted From: 69.14.122.204
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 6:50 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's interesting is that while southeast Michigan's Ukrainian-American community is mostly Ukrainian Catholic (Uniate/Byzantine Rite), the majority religion in Ukraine itself is Orthodox. There is a small contingent of Orthodox Ukrainians here in the area, but it seems that most of the families that immigrated to Detroit (the biggest wave was after WW II) happened to be Catholic, not Orthodox.
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Fury13
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Post Number: 1012
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Posted From: 69.14.122.204
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 6:56 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was also a very early Russian/Ukrainian "colony" just north of Hamtramck, beginning around 1910 and centered around the original Holy Trinity Russian Orthodox Church, on Goddard at Meade. There was less distinction between Russian and Ukrainian in those days (that was the time of the Tsar). They all lived in the neighborhood together. The pastor of Holy Trinity from 1923 to 1970 (well after the parish moved to its present site on Anglin at 8 Mile in 1959) was Father Averky Bondarchuk, who was ethnically Ukrainian.
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Danny
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Posted From: 141.217.174.235
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 10:23 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A Course. I went to a Small Ukrainian village in Chicago's South Side. It's now deteriorating very fast. Due to high crime and epidemic of neighborhood street gang violence and growing Black and Hispanic communities fighting for turf control.
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 3560
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Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 2:13 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let us not forget Ukrainian or other Sovietsky Jews who immigrated to the Detroit Jewish community, starting in Oak Park in the 1970s and 1980s as the Soviets allowed emigration. Post 1989, another wave arrived and have been acculturated as American Jews.

They were only nominally Jews in the Soviet Union so only the younger generation has much formal religious training. But, Jews ethnically, none the less.

jjaba.
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Sknutson
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Post Number: 509
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Posted From: 67.114.23.202
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 2:18 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doesn't that building look like a candidate for a loft conversion?
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Livedog2
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Post Number: 58
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Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 3:49 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe I missed it with the onset of dementia. So, I'll try again.

Jjaba, were you there when the Collingwood Massacre took place?

Approximate body positions.


collingwood

Crowd gathering outside Collingwood Manor apartments.

collingwood 2

Rosa Parks Blvd. wasnít always called Rosa Parks Blvd, it was called 12th Street.
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=1740+collingwood+st&csz=detroit%2C+mi+48206&country=us&new=1&name=&qty=

Livedog2
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The_aram
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Post Number: 4771
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Posted From: 141.213.175.233
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 4:15 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

There was also a very early Russian/Ukrainian "colony" just north of Hamtramck, beginning around 1910 and centered around the original Holy Trinity Russian Orthodox Church, on Goddard at Meade.




There was a significant Russian population surrounding the area of Gilbert St., Clayton Ave., and Livernois on the southwest side. My grandmother was born on Clayton Ave. in 1914, the house is still there. There were two Russian Orthodox churches within blocks of each other, Ss. Peter and Paul, and St. Michael's. St. Michael's burned down on St. Thomas Sunday in a freak candle accident in the 1960's. A candle fell over in the altar when no one was around and burned the building to the ground. The church bought property in Redford Township on West Chicago between Beech-Daly and Inkster, and has been located there for over 30 years. It is attached to the Moscow Patriarchate.

Ss. Peter and Paul, like most Orthodox churches in the area (especially those attached to the Orthodox Church in America), is now simply an "Orthodox" parish, having shed the Russian moniker. It's now a cathedral, and is quickly losing many of its original and longtime-member families to churches like St. Michael's and Holy Trinity, and is compensating by trying to attract members from the predominantly Mexican Catholic neighborhood, with mixed results. They're limping along with a Head Start school in their school building, again, catering to Hispanic children.

I believe there's still a significant Russian population in Hamtramck. There's an Old Believers parish there. I didn't know about this until about two years ago, they're kind of an entirely seperate entity...

I've also been told that the Russian community in Windsor has somewhat revived St. John the Divine on Drouillard Rd. The building was without heat and water service for a couple years as they hadn't had a priest there in years and the membership dwindled to nothing. Now they're back, I guess.
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Fury13
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Posted From: 69.14.122.204
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 12:43 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aram, the Old Believers parish (also called Holy Trinity) on the Hamtramck border is just about extinct. They have no priests so they can't perform any sacraments, from what I understand. They are hanging on by a slim thread.

What's worth mentioning is that, in general, the eastern Ukrainians usually identify with having a connection to Russia; that is, they see themselves as part of the larger Eastern European Slavic mix. They're also usually Orthodox and often speak Russian. The western Ukrainians are more nationalistic with a Ukraine-only sensibility and see the Russians as longtime oppressors. They often prefer to speak Ukrainian (although many do speak Russian as well), and more people in western Ukraine are Catholic/Uniate.
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The_aram
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Post Number: 4773
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Posted From: 141.213.175.233
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 1:04 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's interesting you mention that. My grandfather came from a town west of Kiev near the Polish border, and his family was absolutely Russian, NOT Ukrainian. As a result of where it was located,as a child he used Russian, Yiddish (there was a significant Jewish population), Ukrainian, and Polish to communicate with everybody. We just received a letter from a relative who still lives not far away from there, and she wrote it in Russian, but occasionally lapses into Ukrainian for a half sentence here and there. It was quite entertaining to read. My mom and I are both currently drafting letters to send back. She asked my mom to "ask her husband for permission" to visit them... lol I would like to, but not in the immediate future.

Old Believer parishes tend to be a very small, small affair to begin with, so it's not surprising to me that it's that close to being gone. I was quite surprised to find out it even existed and that I had never heard of it before with my grandfather being who he was.
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Fury13
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Post Number: 1017
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Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 1:22 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh yes, there were/are lots of ethnic Russians born and raised in Ukraine. I've heard of many other cases like your grandfather's. My western/eastern Ukraine dichotomy was a generalization.

When my fiancee went to Ukraine last year to visit relatives, the people in Ukraine were speaking Russian all across the country, even in western Ukraine. Ukrainian was spoken more frequently in the west, though, from what I gathered.

Regarding the Old Believers, I know that some of the members of the Old Believer church on Carpenter have actually come over to the OCA Holy Trinity parish.
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The_aram
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Post Number: 4774
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Posted From: 141.213.175.233
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 1:29 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't doubt it. Fr. Lev at Holy Trinity is likely to do a bit more in Slavonic than any of the other parishes in the area. (READ: Nobody else will.) He, unlike the other OCA priests in the area, is also a fluent Russian speaker. He also grew up, as I understand it, within the ROCOR tradition, so that would likely be why orphaned Old Believers would end up there.

Seems to be that when Russian immigrants come to the Detroit area, they end up at one of two parishes: St. Michael's, or Holy Trinity. I've heard that the Russian hockey players usually go to Holy Trinity.
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Jjaba
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Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 3:08 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very fascinating. jjaba's father and family immigrated to Chicago via Ellis Island in 1913 on the SS Pretoria from Umon, Ukraine. Yitzkok was nine yrs. old. They rode horse carts across Europe and embarked from Hamburg, Germany. The family spoke Ukrainian, Russian, Yiddish, and Hebrew. It was the ship's bursar that gave the family some English letters for a last name. Upon arrival at Ellis Island, after they had argued for weeks on the boat about their name, the family took several names upon embarkation.

On his US Certificate of Citizenship, he is listed as of Hebrew race, and Russian nationality.
Although born Yitzkok in Ukraine, by 1931, living in Detroit, his name is printed "Irving" and he signs the paper "Issac." Although living in Detroit already, he lists a Chicago (Douglas Park) address as his residence.
The certificate is right next to my computer as I report. Note that he arrives in 1913 and gets citizenship in 1931. Why be in a hurry? He never ever returned to Ukraine.

Umon, Ukraine is half-way between Kiev and Odessa on a main road and RR line.

The family were victims of pogrom so they left in a hurry, faster than the Czar could kill them.
This is jjaba's Yiddische heritage.

jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah bukkor. Proudly, he was born in 1941 at Women's Hosptial, Detroit.
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Jjaba
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Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 3:14 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are about 57,000 Russian immigrants living in Detroit area. However, many Jews count themselves as Russians even though they may have been from another Soviet state. 7,000 Soviet Jews settled into Oakland County, Michigan in the 1970-80 wave. Some of the most famous Russians are pro hockey players wearing Red Wings uniforms.

jjaba.
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Jjaba
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Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 3:32 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livedog2, The Colingwood Massacre was in Apt. 211, 1740 Collingwood, Detroit, Sept. 1931.
Instead of a truce with rival Little Navy Gang, the Purple Gang lured them into a trap and killed three of them. Harry Keywell, Irving Milberg and Ray Bernstein went to prison for their work.

jjaba was born in 1941. He hopes that answers your question.

jjaba.
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Livedog2
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Posted From: 24.223.133.177
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 3:55 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the clarification, Jjaba.

Unfortunately, I have some sordid history associated with the Purple Gang. My father was the chauffeur for Saul and Max Krim the owners of the Lasky Theatre on Jos. Campau and Davison Ave. He was only 17 years old at the time but he had taken Max to a restaurant where they witnessed a gangland slaying in the alley on their way out of the restaurant.

The word was that my father was the only eyewitness so they were after him. A few days later he was in a car with some friends going over the Belle Isle Bridge when they were intercepted by these gangsters that were after my father. He figured out who they were right away and got out of the car on the bridge and jumped into the river. When your back's against the wall you do desperate things. It's a miracle he didn't drown because he was wearing high-top combat or work boots but he kept his head and took them off a little at a time as he drifted and came up for air.

belle isle bridge

Naturally, it was too dangerous to stay in town so he hit the rails with a friend which wasn't that odd for the depression era. He was gone over two years picking cotton and maze in Waxahachie, Texas and working on the docks in Galveston, Texas.

Livedog2
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Jjaba
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Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 7:22 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livedog2, that was one incredible story. Sad to learn it. That's just plain spooky. But livedog2 has a love for Detroit. So dad musta returned.

The day the Pope came to Detroit, his driver was exhausted and asked the Pope to drive the Limo. The driver nodded off in the back seat. The Pope was stopped going down I-94 at 90 MPH.
He was just so excited since he rarely drove anymore.

The cop greeted the Holy Father, told him to ease off the gas, and let him go.

The cop went immediately to the police station to tell the desk officer that there must really be an important guy in town; the Pope is driving him in from the airport!

That one was for you, livedog2. So sorry about your father.

By the time jjaba was coming up, the Detroit hoods were invading Las Vegas and things probably changed dramtically in Detroit's gangs.

jjaba, over on Collingwood and 12th Street.
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Hysteria
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Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 7:38 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livedog2 has had an interesting life.
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Livedog2
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Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 8:16 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jjaba, kindness is always appreciated and returned in kind.

Yes, my father was definitely "on the lamb", so to speak. But, he did return to Detroit from exile to Texas a couple of years later and continued his relationship with Mac and Sol at the Lasky Theatre.

lasky

Uncle Mac and my father were always playing a game with each other -- my father was always trying to get Uncle Mac to eat ham sandwiches (Uncle Mac a traditional Jew.) and Uncle Mac was always trying to get my father to eat meat on Friday (My father was a traditional Catholic.) Lots of fun stories about the little game they played between them, all good natured, of course.

Uncle Mac was a very handsome guy that always dressed to the 9s, so to speak and spent a fortune on trying to get into the movies. He moved in much faster and high stepping company. Later in life when I was around him he always greased my palms with a Silver Dollar whenever I saw him. I have a whole box of those Silver Dollars Uncle Mac gave me, oh about, 50 to 55 years ago, in the bottom of my drawer. The Krim Brothers owned the Krim Theatre on Woodward and 6 Mile Rd, in addition to the Lasky Theatre. I canít remember if they owned the 6 Mile Uptown or whatever it was called before that moniker.

They maintained their relationship for years and when my father came back from Texas he worked for them again. He eventually met my mother that also worked for the Krim Brothers as a Ticket Seller at the Lasky Theatre. I have many fond memories of that whole experience with all of them and many others. Unfortunately, I donít have one photo of Uncle Mac or Sol, much to my disappointment. Maybe Iíll figure out how to get one somewhere, somehow. Maybe I should have put this post in the Jews in Detroit thread but it seems more appropriate here. I know, Iíll put it in both places for continuity in both discussions.

Nice Detroit Memories to share on this DetroitYes website!

Iíve got a thousand stories like this.

Livedog2
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Ventura67
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Posted From: 69.245.93.12
Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 12:38 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let me ask a Ukranian question to you guys who might know.

My father's parents came from Ukrania via Germany in 1957.

As I grew up they always referred to the old country as UKRAINIA, not THE UKRAINE as it is said and written in today's media and maps. What is this descrepancy?

Was it that it was Ukrania in Soviet times and has gone back to The Ukraine since independence? Is it a language tranaslation issue? Something else?

They have always referred to it as Ukrania, and since they were born and lived there I'm inclined to think they're right. I call it Ukrainia!
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The_aram
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Username: The_aram

Post Number: 4776
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Posted From: 141.213.175.233
Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 4:32 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My grandfather, when he spoke about the Ukraine, used Ookraina (that's how it's pronounced- the first letter is a Russian oo sound, looks like a Y when printed). It's the Russian word for The Ukraine. I don't think this Forum supports Cyrillic text, otherwise I'd spell it out for you in Russian and break it down syllable by syllable.

Could also be the Ukrainian word for the Ukraine. There's a lot of overlap between the Russian and Ukrainian languages.
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Fury13
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Posted From: 69.14.122.204
Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 9:29 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"THE Ukraine" is erroneous. It implies a region. Just "Ukraine" is correct in English. The "Ukraina" pronunciation (say "oo-krah-EE-nah," with emphasis on the third syllable) is correct in Ukrainian.
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Fury13
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Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 9:35 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aram, to reply to your earlier post, yeah, we do have a few more recent immigrants at Holy Trinity, but there are many parishioners who are descendants of the original Russian/Ukrainian families of the 1910-1920 era as well. Also many newer folks and converts like me. Fr. Lev does throw some Slavonic here and there into the English services. I've noticed quite a few more recent Russian/Ukrainian immigrants at St. Mary Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Southfield and at St. Andrew's Ukrainian Orthodox (Kyiv Patriarchate) on Prescott at the Hamtramck/Detroit border. That little church gets packed to the rafters for the big services (Christmas, Pascha, etc.).

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