 
Tigersfan9
Member
Username: Tigersfan9
Post Number: 29
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 64.118.151.178
| | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 9:30 am: |    |
Sad news on Opening Day...
----------------
Hope fades for Tiger Stadium
At 11th hour, banker seeks to save landmark, but Detroit official says he may be too late.
Joel Kurth / The Detroit News
April 10, 2006
DETROIT -- The last hope to save Tiger Stadium may have come too late, and city officials could soon decide to demolish it.
Southfield mortgage banker Harry Glanz toured the landmark with city officials March 31. He said the walk-through bolstered his 11th-hour plan to scale back the stadium to 15,000 seats and use it for youth sports, shopping and conventions.
But Detroit's chief of development, the man who ultimately could recommend razing what some consider hallowed ground, said the tour proved nothing.
"He has no proposal," said George Jackson, chief operating officer of the Detroit Economic Growth Corp. "Here we have people grandstanding in the public and the media, criticizing the city. When you talk to them, they have no proposals, just ideas. I can't make a plan based on ideas."
Glanz said he's no glory hound. The co-founder of Capital Mortgage Funding said he only wants a fair shot -- four to six months -- to study and submit a redevelopment plan.
Time and patience, however, appear to be running out at City Hall for the century-old jewel that's remained vacant and slowly deteriorating since the Tigers moved to Comerica Park in 2000.
Established in the mid-1990s from a ticket surcharge, a $2.5 million fund for maintenance and security ran out last week. That created a newfound sense of urgency for the cash-strapped city that has paid Tigers owner Mike Ilitch $400,000 for upkeep at the old park.
Fans and preservationists have lambasted Jackson, claiming he repeatedly ignored viable plans to reuse the park. Jackson said he has never seen any and now believes its best use is as a building site.
In years past, the city has tried to market the stadium to retail developers at Las Vegas' mammoth International Council of Shopping Centers convention. Officials are skipping this year's event in May, citing the city's $160 million-$190 million deficit.
"I deal in reality," Jackson said. "I'll listen to people and hear them out. I've heard some ideas, some plans to put Little League in there, but I have never heard from financiers, pension funds or bankers."
Glanz acknowledged his bid comes late, but said he never dreamed the city would raze the stadium. He's forming a group of 12 investors willing to pay the stadium's security and upkeep costs while they devise a plan.
"It just seems to me the city is quick to jump the gun and tear it down," Glanz said. "My desire isn't to call the city out and say they're tough to work with. Why don't we work together?"
Jackson wouldn't put a timetable on a decision about demolition, but acknowledged, "We're at a point when we have to make a decision soon and it won't be based on something with no substance."
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20060410/METRO /604100375 |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 3938
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.174.229
| | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 9:34 am: | |
Adieu Tiger Stadium! Hello EVIL WAL-MART!! |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1557
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.215.246.86
| | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 12:54 pm: | |
From the article:
quote:Jackson wouldn't put a timetable on a decision about demolition, but acknowledged, "We're at a point when we have to make a decision soon and it won't be based on something with no substance."
If the Administration and/or DEGC really are thinking seriously about demolishing Tiger Stadium, that is all the more reason to give Mr. Glanz the 4-6 months that he requested.
It's highly unlikely that the stadium will be demolished in the next 6 month, regardless of what happens with the Glanz proposal.
* The City doesn't have the cash to pay for another big-ticket demolition;
* The State is extremely unlikely to cough up that kind of cash before the gubernatorial election;
* There aren't any developers willing to pay for it themselves.
Therefore, giving him a few months to examine it won't really cost the City anything.
If he can make the project work, great. It's another historic property that we can bring back on-line; creating more jobs and tax revenue in the process.
If he can't make it work, which I will stipulate is the most likely option, then the City and DEGC will be able to say that they've crossed every "t" and dotted every "i" during their efforts to market the property.
Doing so may seem extraneous, but it's the kind of thing that prevents a law suit from happening. |
Oldredfordette
Member
Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 607
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 65.6.177.36
| | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 1:26 pm: | |
Wasn't Kurth the co-writer on the stadium story (with the excerable David Josar) that was completely discredited? Things are bad enough without mountains of misinformation. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1558
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.215.246.86
| | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 3:14 pm: | |
Indeed, he was. Good catch, Oldredfordette.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060314/M ETRO/603140404/1129/SPORTS0104 |
Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism
Post Number: 462
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
| | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 3:58 pm: | |
I agree with Frank about giving Glanz the chance to do the due dilligence. According to the article, they will even pay for the upkeep ..... so what does the city have to lose ?
quote:He's forming a group of 12 investors willing to pay the stadium's security and upkeep costs while they devise a plan.
Besides, aren't Histeric and the Corktown neighborhood proposing some viable plans of their own as well to develop Tiger Stadium ?
(Message edited by darwinism on April 10, 2006) |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 3584
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
| | Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 4:51 pm: | |
Two memories.
At Yom Kippur, 1934, Hank Greenberg, Detroit Tigers All-star, attends services at Congregation Shaarey Zedek, Chicago Blvd. and Lawton, refusing to play baseball on a Holiday. This personal act caused every Jew in America to stand a little taller. It instructed baseball fans of all stripes that privacy rights have to be honored .
June, 1990. Nelson Mandella drew 70,000 people to Tiger Stadium for a speech. He was recently discharged from Robben Island Prison, near Cape Town, South Africa after 27 yrs. there. (jjaba has been in his prison cell.)
He was thrilled to meet Rosa Parks, Coleman Young, Damon Keith and Motown singers. He credited Marvin Gaye and Little Stevie Wonder, among others, who kept his prison spirits high.
Mandella made an 11 day American tour to 8 cities, including Atlanta to visit the grave of ML King, Jr., Boston to the Kennedy Library, Washington, DC to Congress, Yankee Stadium, Harlem, Oakland and other places.
Two memories of Briggs Stadium.
jjaba, please don't do it. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7153
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 4.229.99.114
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:31 am: | |
Why is Glanz the hero. If he needs 4-6 months of due diligence where was he over the last 4-5 years.
More people blowing smoke asking for more time. Last seconds saviors carry no weight in my book but it is easier to vilify the city than ask why Glanz has sat on his hands for 5 years. |
The_aram
Member
Username: The_aram
Post Number: 4781
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.213.175.233
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:46 am: | |
Hey, if you can come up with the cash to tear it down, go right ahead. But until then, as the stadium is still standing, let 'em show all the due diligence they damn well please. What harm does it do? |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3513
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:52 am: | |
Jt1, so you'd rather something be torn down, than for these "last minute saviors," as you call them, to possibily prolong the life of these structures, maybe even attracting other offers? And, who said Glanz is a hero? Anything to prolong the life of these structures is a good thing if it generates more interest in these structures, be these persons serious developers, or self-serving, egotistical bastards. It shouldn't matter who is coming in in the 11th hour. Maybe, you need to put your petty beefs "last minute saviros" aside, and realize that anything to get attention for an old dinosaur is ultimately a good thing. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7156
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 4.229.99.127
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:58 am: | |
I disagree. I think anything that opens up potential of development and tax base is a good thing.
I don't care about the structure itself as it is aburden on the city and the neighborhood.
Just another case of loving a dinosaur from afar without having to deal with the real world issues it causes..
So in short - Yes, I would rather it be torn down as it will open up development opportunity and opportunity to grow the city's tax base.
Do you have a Tiger Stadium in your neighborhood? That should be the question for everyone that is upset about its demise. It is easy to long for history and nostalgia - as long as you don't live near it.
The most vocal critics of tearing these things down live quite a distance away. What's that tell you about the situation. Detroit is a city with neighborhoods. It is not a dinosaur to support the nostalgia of those that do not live here. |
Histeric
Member
Username: Histeric
Post Number: 670
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.28.200
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:02 am: | |
Aram, you once again are showing your naivete. The harm that it does is related to leaving the site in limbo. No developer that can be taken seriously will invest money in due diligence without site control. I ask once again, if this guy is so damned concerned, where the hell has he been for the last decade? Why hasn't he even so much as approached the community? I'll tell you why. Cuz he is full of shit. George Jackson is one of KK's best leadership choices and he deserves much better than this. Get your head out of your ass or shut the $$$$ up.
So once again, what you propose is a chicken and egg scenario that leaves my community in limbo. And that limbo is all by itself, the harm. |
The_aram
Member
Username: The_aram
Post Number: 4782
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.213.175.233
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:08 am: | |
I'm not disagreeing, Histeric. What I am saying is that if the money isn't perceived to be there for demolition in the next six months, let him have his time. What harm will it do?
If the money is going to be there for demolition before he has hope of coming up with the cash, go ahead and whack it.
But last I checked, the biggest question mark thus far is where the $$$ for demolition is going to come from. And if that's still the case, give Glanz his time. And when it's over, and he doesn't come through, bring on the TNT. IF you can pay for it. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3515
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:08 am: | |
quote:I disagree. I think anything that opens up potential of development and tax base is a good thing.
I don't care about the structure itself as it is aburden on the city and the neighborhood.
Just another case of loving a dinosaur from afar without having to deal with the real world issues it causes..
So in short - Yes, I would rather it be torn down as it will open up development opportunity and opportunity to grow the city's tax base.
Do you have a Tiger Stadium in your neighborhood? That should be the question for everyone that is upset about its demise. It is easy to long for history and nostalgia - as long as you don't live near it.
The most vocal critics of tearing these things down live quite a distance away. What's that tell you about the situation. Detroit is a city with neighborhoods. It is not a dinosaur to support the nostalgia of those that do not live here.
All very good points, but it seems to veer away from your post that I took issue with, which was much more a rant against anyone seeking to garner interest for vacant structures, than anything else. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7157
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 4.229.99.148
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:14 am: | |
I support people that truly are looking to save vacant strcutures. i however question the integrity and honesty of anyone that waits until the 11th hour to claim he has a plan then ask for due diligence.
Great, free PR for the man, nothing more. If he had a plan 3 years ago I would be a supporter of his but his timing and his claims leave a lot of room for skepticism. |
The_aram
Member
Username: The_aram
Post Number: 4783
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.213.175.233
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:16 am: | |
So, let's say a person isn't even aware of a structure until the 11th hour. Yet stumbles over it, has the passion and drive and $$$ to finance it. Do they not deserve the opportunity?
Your black-and-white blanket statement there leaves a lot to be desired.
I'm not defending this guy as Tiger Stadium is pretty hard to miss... But in different situations, not every developer out there is as versed in buildings on the brink as many around here may be. |
Histeric
Member
Username: Histeric
Post Number: 671
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.28.200
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:19 am: | |
There are no more active, real "Preservationists" in Michigan than exist in my neighborhood of Corktown. Ethel Claes, a founder of my organization, was one of those little old ladies in the fifties, attired in her pill hat and gloves, who literally stood in front of the bulldozers. She, and our other founders, saved this oldest slice of the city, by sheer valiance and will. Are you so arrogant that you can believe their spirit doesn't remain is those of us carrying on the torch. Do you really think we would "sell out"? Get over yourself and the bullshit information they manipulate and spoon feed the general public or replace your speech with the BBBBAAAAAAAAAAA's that are more appropriate.
When you hear the community of Corktown complaining, then common sense would tell you, there might be a problem. Until then, have some faith. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7158
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 4.229.99.157
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:21 am: | |
And the scenario is not black and white in all strcutures but TS is quite the dinosaur to miss. If he found out about the Alger theater at the 11th hour then due diligence would be understood.
The simple fact is that everyone has known about TS and has had more than ample time to request time for due diligence and he chose to go to the media at the last minute touting a plan. Then it turns out that he really just wants time to put together a plan. Sorry but he has had ample time. His due diligence time just puts a solid neighborhood in limbo while you have people like Histeric busting their asses everyday to improve the neighborhood that has the 500 ton noose (TS) draped around their necks.
Nostalgia is easy from afar and a bitch up close. Those not dealing with the noose can long for the old days. Those pursuing a better future for the neighborhood can not deal with the noose any longer nor can they deal with the nostalgia. |
The_aram
Member
Username: The_aram
Post Number: 4784
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.213.175.233
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:29 am: | |
I absolutely agree with that post. And I do tend to favor demolition of Tiger Stadium, as there aren't too many adaptive reuses for a stadium of that size.
But at the same time, if the plans for demolition wouldn't even be completed by the time his 4-6 months would be over anyway, I say give him the chance. If he can't come up with it, sell off everything you can unscrew and push the button. |
Histeric
Member
Username: Histeric
Post Number: 672
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.28.200
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:29 am: | |
Very well put my friend. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7159
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 4.229.99.157
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:32 am: | |
I agree Aram. I fthe time does not delay the demo then go for it but don't delay the plan in place while waiting for him.
I fit is slated to be demo'ed in a year then give him full access to the strcuture, no harm in that. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3516
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.172.95.197
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 3:09 am: | |
I completely agree with that, Jt, which is why I'm still confused about your rant against "last minute saviors." |
Gumby
Member
Username: Gumby
Post Number: 1074
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.60.143.186
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 8:03 am: | |
quote:"It just seems to me the city is quick to jump the gun and tear it down," Glanz said. "My desire isn't to call the city out and say they're tough to work with. Why don't we work together?"
Quick to jump the gun? The thing has sat there since 2000. |
Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism
Post Number: 466
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 9:22 am: | |
I am most certainly sensitive to the needs and desires of Corktown residents. With that in mind, I believe Histeric's perspective probably represents the voices of Corktown collectively. I remembered there being a post in the past few months that the Corktown neighborhood coalition has presented their own mixed-use plans for the Tiger Stadium ..... is that still in the works ? Or are all options pretty much exhausted from the Corktown residents' point of view ? |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 66.208.225.165
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 9:32 am: | |
Let me see, the City is "quick to jump the gun". It's been, what 6 years. Slow down people. Lets not be hasty here. Let's give it another 6 years. And then, think about it some more. |
Slows
Member
Username: Slows
Post Number: 124
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.246.28.200
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 10:04 am: | |
Histeric and GCDC have a great plan and they certainly have the support of the vast majority of Corktown residents. The plan is the most feasible that I've heard or seen to date, especially when taking into account when trying to preserve some part of the history of the Corner. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 1403
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 12:54 pm: | |
quote:I think anything that opens up potential of development and tax base is a good thing.
So at what point do you start taking advantage of this potential and this opportunity? Both of these exist in tremendous quantities in Detroit, but nothing is ever done with either of them.
Structures aren't dinosaurs just because they are old. If nothing else, the structural steel could be used as framing for a new building on the same site (adaptive reuse). If one reads the fishwraps, though, it seems as if the City pre-ordained the demolition of Tiger Stadium way back in 1999.
There is no way that Tiger Stadium can continue to exist in its present form. What do you do with such a structure? Removing it entirely from the landscape only takes Detroit one step closer to becoming a northern version of Houston.
"Nostalgic" would be having to look on this website in the future for any semblance of character in Detroit, wondering where the F it all went wrong. Preservation is about history, character, and yes, economics. What's the hurry to make rash, pre-ordained decisions? The City hasn't exactly made a convincing case for outright demo if there are still valid, unconsidered proposals floating around. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1559
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.225.118.164
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:59 pm: | |
quote:Why is Glanz the hero. If he needs 4-6 months of due diligence where was he over the last 4-5 years?
Building his company, Capital Mortgage Funding, to the point where he could afford to take on a project like this.
quote:More people blowing smoke asking for more time. Last seconds saviors carry no weight in my book but it is easier to vilify the city than ask why Glanz has sat on his hands for 5 years.
I disagree. If he is building his business, his is not, by definition, "sitting on his hands."
quote:Do you have a Tiger Stadium in your neighborhood? That should be the question for everyone that is upset about its demise. It is easy to long for history and nostalgia - as long as you don't live near it.
Pull your head out of the sand, Jt1. The only person talking about "nostalgia" is you. (Oh, and jjaba who posted his memories of the place when it was open).
Everyone else is talking about creating jobs and tax revenue as well as preventing needless litigation.
Plus, going the extra mile for one potential developer shows every other developer in the nation that Detroit is willing to do business. Whereas not allowing him everything he needs to do his due diligence has the exact opposite effect.
quote:I agree Aram. I fthe time does not delay the demo then go for it but don't delay the plan in place while waiting for him.
Dang! Jt1, it took you a half dozen posts to realize what Aram and everyone else was saying.
The Stadium isn't coming down anytime in the next 6 months. There's no reason for the City and DEGC to allow him access to the site and a chance to put together his financing package. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7161
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.22
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:21 pm: | |
I still say it has to go. 2 months before demo I will go to the papers claiming I have a plan and that the demo should be delayed while I can perform my due diligence.
Once Glanz submits his proposal and it is based upon fantasy another person will be there hollering "I just need 6 months" and the cycle continues.
Now to address your points:
quote:Building his company, Capital Mortgage Funding, to the point where he could afford to take on a project like this.
And there are many people currently building their businesses. Shoudl the city wait while they have the ability to fund a project?
quote:I disagree. If he is building his business, his is not, by definition, "sitting on his hands."
With regard to TS he has indeed been 'sitting on his hands.' More power to him for starting and building his company but that has 0 impact on the fact that he is asking for time to develop a plan 6 years after TS was shuttered.
quote:Pull your head out of the sand, Jt1. The only person talking about "nostalgia" is you. (Oh, and jjaba who posted his memories of the place when it was open).
Everyone else is talking about creating jobs and tax revenue as well as preventing needless litigation.
Plus, going the extra mile for one potential developer shows every other developer in the nation that Detroit is willing to do business. Whereas not allowing him everything he needs to do his due diligence has the exact opposite effect.
You honestly believe that those bitching about TS coming down give 2 shits about the job creation or economic impact to the city. You just gave away your hand with such a silly comment.
The city bending over for Glanz to let TS sit there vacant even longer will have 0 effect on the attitude perceived by other developers. Finances and the ability to develop a viable business case affects developers, not the city letting TS sit and rot even longer.
quote:Dang! Jt1, it took you a half dozen posts to realize what Aram and everyone else was saying.
I agree with that one point but that one point is not the only one that people have been trying to make.
I called KK - I expect to be a billionaire in 2050 and have requested they sit on TS until I can finance the project to save it.
I am all for preservation but I am also a realist and take into account the city's current situation and the fact that there is more potential to create jobs and a tax base and enhance the neighborhood with TS gone.
Preservation is a great goal. Preservation without logic is often a hinderance to a great cause.
PS for DaninDC. The city (if they do things right) should be able to get the demo done for close to nothing, free or at a profit by allowing the demo company the opportunity to keep the steel. That is not an uncommon situation with larger steel structures. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 189
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:36 pm: | |
quote:Detroit is a city with neighborhoods. It is not a dinosaur to support the nostalgia of those that do not live here.
Said quite beautifully Jt1. And unfortunately, those who don't live in the city neighborhoods will never truly understand.
It would be one thing if it was a building with windows of some sort but come on. It's a stadium. I'm all for redeveloping buildings where adaptive reuse is obvious even buildings that have substantial challenges, but stadiums have a very poor track record of reuse in the US.
I just can't wait to see the gravel lots fill in with development. Corktown has been held hostage by the gravel lots for too long. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 1404
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 3:10 pm: | |
...and those neighborhoods are becoming wide open swaths of prairie faster than you can say "Mike Ilitch". But, of course, we need to create more "potential", don't we? How much is enough, folks?
Jt1, never in my professional experience have I ever seen a demo contractor get paid with scrap steel. That kind of shit flies in Mexico, perhaps, but not here. Those guys pay their mortgages and feed their families with cash money. You honestly think the City will get something for nothing, or that somehow, THIS project is the magical demolition that will INSPIRE developers to invest in Detroit? Please, that refrain goes back at least as far as the construction of the RenCen. Who, again, is fantasizing? |
Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism
Post Number: 467
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 3:24 pm: | |
If Corktown residents and Corktown businesses want Tiger Stadium flatten, who are the rest of the Southeast Michigan public have to say about it.
On the other hand, I doubt that Jt1's assertion is shared by the GCDC, Histeric and other businesses such as Slow's, LJ's and etc. Historical significance brings people to the area and businesses such as Slow's benefit from the people and the foot traffic. Wrecking the whole structure down and flattening the lot doesn't help these businesses if no plans are in the horizon to immediately fill it up. I enjoy LJ's and Slow's, so I look forward to them staying in business.
I am certainly interested to hear about the progress of the GCDC's proposal for Tiger Stadium. Their plan might be one that is viable, and beneficial to the residents as well as small businesses in the neighborhood. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 3591
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 3:25 pm: | |
You gotta face the sociology of Detroit baseball. THEY MOVED THE SOCIOLOGY DOWNTOWN. In other cities, they tore down but left the people to attend in another building.
Examples are numerous: Philadelphia, St Louis, Chicago White Sox, Ny Mets(planned), NY Yankees(planned), Seattle, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Arlington(Texas), Milwaukee. In these cities, the old stadia were demolished but new ones went up in the same neighborhood. In Detroit, they've already moved the people farther away.
Thus, the neighborhood wants to move on. jjaba would miss the ma and pa parking lots, but he guarantees rebuilding on them when the first wrecking ball hits The Corner.
In Baltimore, Cleveland, Brooklyn, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Boston Braves, the old neighborhoods were abandoned and the immediate neighborhood had to adapt to that loss of people. That's the Detroit case.
Add The Olympia, the Statler, Vernor's, my Sanders shop, the Shubert, Cass Tech., Cass Theater, The Minor Key, Boeskys, and Briggs Stadium to jjaba's list. They are kaput. We move on. If jjaba wants nostalgia, he can go to Windsor Arena with AIW.
Histeric, you go man!
jjaba. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7163
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.22
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 4:10 pm: | |
Dan - You are mistaken. I know of projects done in the US where the steel was a major part of payment for demo. The steel is retained and sold by the demo company for a portion or all of the payment.
Shoot me an e-mail and I can give you some basic info. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 196
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 5:55 pm: | |
quote:You gotta face the sociology of Detroit baseball. THEY MOVED THE SOCIOLOGY DOWNTOWN. In other cities, they tore down but left the people to attend in another building.
Jjaba, a very good point that everyones missing.
IMO Corktown started doing better when the stadium closed, what with all the new and rehabbed housing, bars and restaurants. The closing of Tiger Stadium was probably the best thing to happen to the neighborhood in recent memory. The fate of the sports shops don't look good, but that's what happens when the baseball sociology moves downtown (they'd be best to follow). Once the stadium's gone Corktown will have a large parcel ripe for new construction along its main drag which it sorely needs. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 1405
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 6:16 pm: | |
Is Tiger Stadium holding back redevelopment in Corktown, just like Hudson's and the Statler were doing downtown? Just curious....
I'm really itching to see the proposal put together by the Corktown citizens. I'm also curious to know why a "League Park"-type renovation can't be done. I want to be optimistic, but the City of Detroit seems to have its own agenda, which of course, is hidden until a decision has already been made to demolish. |
Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 198
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 6:25 pm: | |
I think all the damn gravel lots are holding back Corktown even more. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 1406
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 6:35 pm: | |
What do the gravel lots have to do with Tiger Stadium? Those gravel lots can be built upon, regardless of what happens to the stadium. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 201
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 6:44 pm: | |
Danindc, there are numerous privately-owned gravel lots adjacent to the stadium and all throughout Corktown which used to serve as the sole source of parking for games at Tiger Stadium. There has been almost no construction on them since Tiger Stadium closed. Many are owned by land speculators waiting to see what happens with the stadium. Since the taxes on them are vitually nothing they can wait nearly forever. They are a horrible blight on the neighborhood. |
Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers
Post Number: 1568
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 6:56 pm: | |
quote:What do the gravel lots have to do with Tiger Stadium? Those gravel lots can be built upon, regardless of what happens to the stadium.
Could be, but why would you do that when you might have the chance to park cars for $20 for a few hours 60-70 days of the year?
This is (for the most part) not a case of the stadium being a visually blighting influence, but rather an economic one. |
Jsmyers
Member
Username: Jsmyers
Post Number: 1569
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 6:59 pm: | |
Similarly, the MCS is largely a problem because landholders imagine any number of things that might happen in the area that would require a deep-pocketed group to buy their land.
Blight is largely a problem of economics and speculation, not as much visual unpleasantness. What we see as blight is often just the symptom of problems, not the cause of them. (Hence my irritation at somebody wanting to know where to buy cheap lots in Detroit that will be worth more someday.) |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 3593
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 7:09 pm: | |
Eastsidedog, wait just an accurate second. jjaba went to Briggs Stadium in the 1940s forward. We always parked on the streets. The largest majority of fans parked on city streets. Only those who needed one-block convenience paid those flaggers. Since we lived in the NW side, we really never saw them much since we walked South down a sidestreet, off of Grand River.
By walking away a bit from the stadium, we never had traffic jams either.
Today, there is such hysteria with the large, fantzy cars, that suburbanites, exurbanites, and out-of-state visitors are willing to pay $20 storage for a 3 hr. ballgame. That isn't how it was for most of the life of Briggs/Tiger Stadium.
For day games, jjaba often rode public transit.
Sportsman's Park (St. Louis) and League Park (Cleveland) reconstructions really didn't do for the neighborhood what Danindc suggests. Both of these neighborhood are worse off than Corktown, opinion jjaba's.
Thanks for the props, Eastsidedog. jjaba tells it like it tis.
jjaba, Torah Yeshiva Bukkor at a ballgame eating his Kosher dog. |
Jsmyers
Member
Username: Jsmyers
Post Number: 1571
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 7:15 pm: | |
I wonder how many on-street parking spaces have been removed in the area in the last 50 years for extra travel lanes.
How did the construction of I-75 effect those that did what Jjaba did? I'm sure it is not as nice crossing the freeway as a couple of blocks and Vernor would be. Quite a few less on street parking spaces too. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 3595
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 7:22 pm: | |
jsmyers knows the neighborhood. Yes, jjaba switched to parking South of Michigan Avenue after the freeways. Infact, later in its history, jjaba tried to park really close to Father Kern's monument on Trumbull. Father never let me down.
Since jjaba drives American cars, he would qualify for safe parking at The Teamsters although he never tried. Never once in over 50 yrs. of ballgames at The Corner did jjaba ever pay for parking and he has never paid at Comerica Park either. And never once has jjaba encountered any harm to self or vehicles.
jjaba. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 1407
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 7:26 pm: | |
Jjaba, you're correct about League Park. I never claimed, though, that it revitalized the neighborhood, just as Corktown shouldn't be relying on one big Project to revitalize itself. (Diversity is the key to good investment, or so says my broker.) League Park was converted just as urban neighborhoods fell out of disfavor, thanks to wonderfully short-sighted federal, state, and local policies. The decline of the surrounding neighborhood was not an effect of the League Park renovation, but symptomatic of larger factors at work.
Interesting about parking on the streets, though. It just goes to show how spoiled our culture has become. I know, however, that such a parking policy would never play out anymore. In my neighborhood, you have to have a special neighborhood parking permit to park on the street during events at RFK Stadium, or you risk ticket or a tow. Plain and simple, our neighborhood belongs to us more than it does people in the burbs who drive in for a baseball game.
The City needs to make progress toward a move on this one. Ideally, they preserve part of the structure and the field. I don't have a solution for the gravel lots--one thinks that taxing land instead of buildings might help that problem. I'm surprised a developer hasn't come forward with plans to build houses and such. I would think in a rebounding neighborhood, you could make a bit of money. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 3597
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 7:42 pm: | |
Tax assessments often lag decades behind land and building values. Without publically recorded recent sales, assessors don't do much to raise taxes.
In Corktown, you'd need to buy gravel lots AND old houses to rebuild something nice. Otherwise, you've got infill and some shack next to your new house. That's a common story all over Detroit.
Individual infill can work in Bridgeport, Chicago, where more of the neighborhood is already well maintained. Corktown speculators are really slum landlords in some cases.
jjaba. |
Knightmessenger
Member
Username: Knightmessenger
Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 147.124.50.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 12:08 am: | |
Even though I was only 13 in 1999, I have very fond memories of the stadium. I'm very dissapointed in Carnival Park, though. After all that was promised, is that really the best they could do? It has to be the worst of the retro parks (1993 Camden Yards-present). It has everything for everyone except those who want to see a baseball game. And the team is still no good. I think the Tigers used the age of Tiger Stadium during the 90's as a scapegoat for their lack of on field success. Crowds were low those years because the team wasn't good, not because the facility was old. The team made all sorts of claims that they needed a new place help their franchise comepete. I really think the Tigers are in worse shape now, possibly the worst in their storied history. Tiger Stadium is their only link to the past. If they level Tiger Stadium, it will drive the final stake through the heart of this long wounded and suffering baseball team.
I realize that it's not feasible to preserve Tiger Stadium completely intact, but can't they save some of it. Why not scale it back to its Navin Field size and make it into a park that can be used it for youth baseball and so on? If they do demolish it, I hope they take it apart piece by piece like the Statler so that parts could possibly be used elsewhere. If Carnival Park was outfitted with parts of the stadium, it would really add a sense of history and charm to the place and I just might become a Tigers fan again. |
Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 38
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 71.227.26.9
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 12:30 am: | |
The demise of the old stadium has been known about and discussed endlessly for years. Of course the city should listen to any decent proposal that makes sense, but you would have thought an idea would have revealed itself by now if there was something workable with real money behind it.
I can't think of another city that has re-used an old ball park and made a go of it, even cities that have a much better economic base than Detroit. Clearly with the city facing possible receivership, they cannot afford to pay Illich 400 grand per year to maintain the site. The real fight ended when the team and the city decided to abandon the stadium in the first place. The rest is just conversation. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 3598
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 4:25 am: | |
Not so fast. Homeplate at Comerica is the Tiger Stadium homeplate. The center field flag pole is also from Briggs/Tiger Stadium and is still in play.
The homeplate area dirt at New Comiskey was dug up from old Comiskey. So go to Chicago if you want stadium parts.
Go to Arlington, Texas to see a replica of the upper deck in right field where the overhang made for some crazy plays.
jjaba wouldn't mind the roof over the second deck at Comerica. It was sweet up in Sec. 24 at the old place.
I took my girlfriend to the ballgame. I kissed her on the strikes, she kissed me on the balls. (with a nod to Soupy Sales.)
jjaba. |
Histeric
Member
Username: Histeric
Post Number: 673
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.61.194.66
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 6:05 am: | |
I hate to tell ya Jjaba, but I was walking the Queen of Diamonds with the Sundance Channel a mere two weeks ago....and the real, original wooden flag pole is still in the exact place it has been for decades. Don't buy the hype brother. It is a cheap imitation. |
Jsmyers
Member
Username: Jsmyers
Post Number: 1585
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.175.171
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 8:18 am: | |
I believe it has been taken out of play by the moving of a wall a few years ago. |
Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism
Post Number: 470
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.215.30.34
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 11:01 am: | |
jjaba: "I kissed her on the strikes, she kissed me on the balls." - Whoa ! Am I gutter-minded for interpreting this awkwardly ?  |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 452
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 172.131.184.98
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 12:41 pm: | |
Knghtmessenger states:
quote:I realize that it's not feasible to preserve Tiger Stadium completely intact, but can't they save some of it. Why not scale it back to its Navin Field size and make it into a park that can be used it for youth baseball and so on?
People, let go of this idea, please. Partial demolition and renovation of what remains will cost in the tens of millions of dollars. Where will the revenue stream come from to support that kind of capital expenditure, not to mention the cost of whatever "youth sports" operation that is set up? You're talking serious seven figure annual revenue needed to support this kind of re-use of Tiger Stadium. I don't see it.
I am also interested to see what the GCDC is proposing. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 1408
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 12:54 pm: | |
quote:Partial demolition and renovation of what remains will cost in the tens of millions of dollars.
...and the cost of complete demolition and reconstruction would be what?
Amazing that one of the oldest cities in the U.S. has absolutely no sense of history and culture. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7164
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 1:03 pm: | |
quote:Amazing that one of the oldest cities in the U.S. has absolutely no sense of history and culture.
Amazing that someone that lives in another state always knows what is best for the city and the citizens of the city. The city is more than its architecture and it gets really old that you seem to think that saving everything is worthwhile regardless of finances and the effect of people that actually live here.
Move to Detroit then your voice may carry a little more weight. Otherwise preaching from another state without having to deal with the issues that the city currently faces gets old really fast.
Demo can be covered for the most part by the steel. Add in the fact that many presrevationists look at one time costs only, not the long term operations cost and your rosy little picture changes in a hurry. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 206
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 1:18 pm: | |
quote:I don't have a solution for the gravel lots--one thinks that taxing land instead of buildings might help that problem. I'm surprised a developer hasn't come forward with plans to build houses and such. I would think in a rebounding neighborhood, you could make a bit of money.
Danindc, it's rebounding but VERY SLOWLY, like the rest of Detroit. With the economy in shambles and the SuperBowl XL hype being over the resurgence of the city is slowing. it's still happening but won't really take off again until 2007/2008 when the economy impoves IMO. In case you didn't know were in a one-state recession here.
Regarding all the gravel lots, it is likely that with property values plummeting in the 70's and 80's and parking tastes changing (suburbanization), more money could be made from the land in the form of parking lots than as buildings. This is pretty much the reason for "parking-lot-ization" across the city. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 454
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 172.131.184.98
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 1:21 pm: | |
Danin doesn't need to move here in order for his views to have credibility.
I'm not sure, but I think that he's saying that little real harm or damage to Corktown will occur by giving the Capital Mortgage fellow some time to produce a feasible development proposal. I don't necessarily disagree with him, but I'm very skeptical that a feasible proposal that involves preserving the site as some sort of scaled down stadium will be forthcoming.
As for the cost of a complete demolition, yeah, I don't know where that is going to come from either. But if Corktown is to make significant progress, development has to occur on that site. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7165
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 1:32 pm: | |
If that is the case I agree with him. Dan seems to take the attitude that any demo of any strcucture with any history is the city and the residents being ignorant or indifference towards the past of the city. That is not the case.
Still I would like to know why Glanz waited so long and went to the press claiming the city has not given his plan any attention. After some more info came out it appears he has no plan and wants time to put one together.
But let's villify the city for wanted to knock down a strcuture that has no potential, will be a burden on the city's struggling finances and will keep possible development in Corktown at a slower pace because people that moved to Macomb Township or Novi want it saved.
Give him access. It will be worth it just so that he can come back with a silly plan with no positive revenue for the city and no benefit to the neighborhood.
Sorry for jumping on Dan but I am annoyed as hell with the thousands that know what is best fot the city and the residents but preach from their hich horse from far away. Its like the people outraged at the possibility of the zoo closure that do not pay city taxes that support the zoo and shot down previous tax proposals for regional support of the zoo.
If half the 'experts' on the city actually moved to the city we would see some real progress. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 207
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 1:33 pm: | |
quote:Amazing that one of the oldest cities in the U.S. has absolutely no sense of history and culture.
Danindc, the Motor City has been on the fast track to totally annihilating it's past for decades. It's a very old city yes, but tastes drastically changed in Detroit with the emergence of the auto industry. The auto industry doesn't like history or culture (even when it pretends to in order to sell cars), it likes words like fast, new, shiny, efficient, sexy, stylish, cutting edge and high-tech. A sentiment not very compatible with historic preservation, nostagia or the like. This is why in the exurbs, new shiny new subdivisions spring up over night while urban neighborhoods without driveways are laid to waste. This is why the last example of a certain style of French home was leveled for an IHOP. This is why old storefronts are leveled in favor of strip malls. This is Detroits eternal struggle. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 3606
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 1:36 pm: | |
Not to mention the size and values of the vehicles. Those who attend Tigers games drive long distances and expect to park next door to the venue. $20 must be cheap insurance to park a car. When jjaba queries the typical Tigers fan, they report residences in such places as Hamburg, Chelsea, Romeo, or Fenton. jjaba is the onliest one to scoot out, leave his street spot, and bingo, adios.
Histeric is our source. jjaba stands corrected about the flag pole. jjaba did buy the hype. Wrong again.
Darwinism, the back recesses of Sec. 24 upper deck in a Briggs Stadium weekday game made for relative privacy. I.E. relative to sharing a bedroom with jjaba's brother in a Westside 5 room walk-up flat.
Soupy Sales invented the line. He's still alive. Ask him.
jjaba. |
Harpernottingham
Member
Username: Harpernottingham
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 66.178.227.202
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 1:37 pm: | |
Yo, everybody, come check out the new documentary on Tiger Stadium. Premieres April 24 at the Gem Theatre.
www.strandedatthecorner.com |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 908
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 1:37 pm: | |
Exurbs are not just limited to Metro Detroit, they are a problem throughout the entire nation. About a month ago, Newsweek had a great graph showing the growth in counties moving to the outer reaches of areas, its staggering seeing the growth throughout the nation. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 208
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 1:48 pm: | |
True Bob. Exurbia is a national epidemic. But when comparing Detroit to other old cities, the obsession with newness seems acute in Detroit. In Detroit if you've "made it" you're buying a new home in the townships. It's a status symbol. Out east people just don't abandon the old neighborhoods like they do here. My wife lived in Philly and her best friends parents are middle class folks. They have been in the old neighborhood for generations. Out east it seems people feel very tied to their neighborhood, here they leave in a heartbeat. Maybe it has something to do with the perpetual slumming of older neighborhoods. Once they reach maturity they almost always become a slum. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 1409
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 1:51 pm: | |
Thanks, Swingline. I tend to be very pragmatic. I only get upset when demolitions are proposed in Detroit because the City seems to pay lip service to anything other than demolition. It's as if the Mayor and Council are hellbent on making Detroit look like Houston, and let me tell ya, I've never heard anything complimentary about Houston.
quote:Demo can be covered for the most part by the steel. Add in the fact that many presrevationists look at one time costs only, not the long term operations cost and your rosy little picture changes in a hurry.
Let's see some cost estimates, then. What does that hurt? You have to have a complete picture before you can make an informed decision, correct? The City has had 6 years to study redevelopment. As far as the casual observer (me) can tell, they've been sitting on their behinds, with pre-ordained demo already decided long ago. You CANNOT, under any circumstances, make an informed decision until you have entertained ALL considerations. The problem I have here, is that the City is making a decision, or at least leaning toward one, that is poorly informed at best. These are the people that represent you--don't you want them making fully informed decisions on your behalf?
As it is, the City and half the posters on this thread are only looking at one side of the story. What does it hurt to explore the possibility of renovation, especially if it can produce a higher ROI for the Owner? Let's talk shop after we have all the information, shall we? If you're confident that demolition is the most economical and feasible approach, then you have nothing to fear, correct?
And for those who think preservationists tend to be short-sighted, the principles of sustainable design dictate that initial costs tend to be higher, but life-cycle costs tend to be lower--quite the opposite of what jt1 claims. That, and you don't have all that extra construction material taking up landfill space (over half of all landfill deposits are construction material). And I don't need to live in Detroit to exercise my opinion as a design professional. |
Jsmyers
Member
Username: Jsmyers
Post Number: 1590
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 2:00 pm: | |
Danindc,
Your POV is based mostly on the Detroit News and Free Press. For the most part, they ignore planning and development news in the city unless it is something shiny and new under construction or something famous getting torn down.
There has been a lot of behind the scenes work going on by all involved. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7166
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 2:11 pm: | |
Dan - How is it that you know what the city has and hasn't reviewed and decided.
You blindly jump on the bandwagon from an article in a local paper and assume that it must be honest and straight up. You know almost nothing of the situation and you and I have seen the other people claiming to have great ideas for the site that turned out to be absolute junk. The fact is the city has issued RFPs over the last 6 years and nothing viable has been submitted. At the last minute Glanz goes to the paper claiming he has a plan. In fact he has no plan and just wants more time.
quote:City has had 6 years to study redevelopment. As far as the casual observer (me) can tell, they've been sitting on their behinds, with pre-ordained demo already decided long ago. You CANNOT, under any circumstances, make an informed decision until you have entertained ALL considerations.
The city has not received a valid proposal. What does ALL considerations mean. I can assure you once Glanz's idea is submitted and more than likely seen to be unfeasible someone else will chime in and ask for 6 months of due diligence. When do ALL considerations technically end?
quote:The problem I have here, is that the City is making a decision, or at least leaning toward one, that is poorly informed at best. These are the people that represent you--don't you want them making fully informed decisions on your behalf?
The problme I have here is that you seem to be taking the 'the city is wrong not matter what' approach and letting a fluff article in the News sway your opinion. Have you ever sat in a city meeting on this, have you every FOIA'ed any info on the proposals. Have you ever done a thing to check into what the city has done and considered or are you just making a 'the city wants to demo it' opinion. I love the experts whose info comes from the newspaper op ed writers and are instantly aware of the feasibility of the project and what the city thinks and does.
quote:As it is, the City and half the posters on this thread are only looking at one side of the story. What does it hurt to explore the possibility of renovation, especially if it can produce a higher ROI for the Owner? Let's talk shop after we have all the information, shall we? If you're confident that demolition is the most economical and feasible approach, then you have nothing to fear, correct?
I agree if a proposal comes along that is financially beneficial for the city and beneficial for the community we should jump at it but your assumption is that has not been done. George Jackson is a reasonable, intelligent man but people just assume the city has an agenda whne in fact reuse of stadiums is not commonly done for a reason.
quote:And for those who think preservationists tend to be short-sighted, the principles of sustainable design dictate that initial costs tend to be higher, but life-cycle costs tend to be lower--quite the opposite of what jt1 claims. That, and you don't have all that extra construction material taking up landfill space (over half of all landfill deposits are construction material). And I don't need to live in Detroit to exercise my opinion as a design professional.
Preservationists are not always looking at the facts and the principles of sustainable design. Preservationsists are often unaware of the financial ramifications and definitely do not look at all the facts.
As for landfill space the steel will not end up in a landfill. Most of the materials at the stadium will be reused since the skeleton is primarly steel that will not end up in a landfill. Satdiums typical material is not the same as a standard building.
quote:And I don't need to live in Detroit to exercise my opinion as a design professional.
Opinions as a design professional are great but knowing the impact of a vacant TS to the city and the neighborhood while we wait for 50 more proposals is something that you need to be in the area to grasp. I don't discredit your abilities as a design professional but I don't think that you understand the lost opportunity to North/Souuth Corktown due to the uncertainty of TS.
Design professionals deal with buildings. Neighborhoods are more important in that area than the building. You can cite that history is necessary but Corktown has its own history and is trying to maintain that. TS is a part of it but in the mean time the prospect of retaining the rest of the history is in jeopardy due to TS, not in spite of it. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7167
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 2:13 pm: | |
PS - I am (hold your breath) pro-preservation and do not intend to dismiss the efforts of some of the great preservationsists in this region.
Unfortunately there is the real world that makes these things more difficult. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7168
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 2:16 pm: | |
And some pretty important quotes that may have been overlooked:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060410/M ETRO/604100375
quote:"He has no proposal," said George Jackson, chief operating officer of the Detroit Economic Growth Corp. "Here we have people grandstanding in the public and the media, criticizing the city. When you talk to them, they have no proposals, just ideas. I can't make a plan based on ideas."
quote:In years past, the city has tried to market the stadium to retail developers at Las Vegas' mammoth International Council of Shopping Centers convention. Officials are skipping this year's event in May, citing the city's $160 million-$190 million deficit.
"I deal in reality," Jackson said. "I'll listen to people and hear them out. I've heard some ideas, some plans to put Little League in there, but I have never heard from financiers, pension funds or bankers."
quote:"It just seems to me the city is quick to jump the gun and tear it down," Glanz said. "My desire isn't to call the city out and say they're tough to work with. Why don't we work together?"
Quick to jump the gun - 6 years later right Mr. Glanz. |
Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve
Post Number: 2881
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.65
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 2:19 pm: | |
What ever happened to the Nonrahs-Sinacola plan for the site?
That plan had the backing and support of Corktown, to the point where the community had a "call'em out" press conference to try and jumpstart the city's support. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 1410
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 2:25 pm: | |
I'm not saying that Glanz has a feasible plan. I'm simply not confident that the City has its act completely together when it comes to development--especially when historic properties are in question.
The successful preservationist is one who can make an economic justification for his work, and not just rely upon emotion and nostalgia.
I know that TS would be tough to redevelop. The City's idea of redevelopment, though, tends to be along the lines of "tear-down-and-put-up-big-box- retail". It just doesn't sit well with me after all the hullabaloo regarding Hudson's, the Statler, and the Madison-Lenox. You have to admit the City doesn't exactly have a stellar track record with regard to redeveloping historic and important sites. |
Eastsidedog
Member
Username: Eastsidedog
Post Number: 211
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.20.140.8
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 2:39 pm: | |
quote:It's as if the Mayor and Council are hellbent on making Detroit look like Houston, and let me tell ya, I've never heard anything complimentary about Houston.
Danindc, for a very long time Detroit's development strategy has not been new urbanism(that is a recent development, Kilpatricks administration has actually being a proponent of it, he is a GenXers and all), the city's policy for decades has been suburbanization. Here's an example:
I've heard from long-time residents, that long ago Coleman Young put in place a policy that lot sizes have to match suburban lots sizes to be built on. The perception was that everyone was moving to the suburbs, so that's what people wanted. No more 35'x90' lots. This has killed infill housing and density in much of the city's old neighborhoods (you have to get two empty lots together to build anything, so only in very blighted neighborhoods can infill occur and then it's often affordable housing). The development in North Corktown where the houses are built on the standard lot sizes with garages facing the alley is an INCREDIBLE TRIUMPH here. Hence all the talk about them.
In shorter words, yes, for years Detroit wanted to look like Houston but recently an infusion of dedicated urbanists are turning that tide.
I think TS is sort of stuck in the middle of the new urbanism vs. suburbanism arguement. It's an old historic site, but it's also a horrendous super block that kills the area around it. There are strong arguements for adaptive reuse, but being that it's a big windowless juggernaut, there are good arguements for bringing it down to a more human scale. Hopefully it is either rehabbed down to a more human scale or something more urbane than a big bleak Walmart replaces it.
Let there be no doubt that there are people in city government right now salivating over the notion of building a suburban big box store on the TS site with acres and acres of parking. So many Detroiters have been wanting the amenities of the suburbs for so long that this will be a triumph in their book. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 7169
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.251.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 3:05 pm: | |
Agreed with most of your last post Dan. The Hudsons I think needed to come down, Madison-Lenox was a cluster-fuck and an embarrassment for the city as that was neithhindering progress or on a scale that would have made restoration overly difficult or costly.
The Statler time will tell but it is my understanding that the city put out numerous RFPs and nothing came in that was viable.
The city and the current admistration has however done a very good job with many downtown buildings that were completely neglected only a few short years. back. |
Detroitman
Member
Username: Detroitman
Post Number: 954
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 67.35.32.138
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 6:34 am: | |
Kilpatrick wants stadium razed
Headquarters for cops on Beaubien would be restored
April 13, 2006
BY JOHN GALLAGHER
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060413/NEW S01/604130403/1003/NEWS |
Motownmark04
Member
Username: Motownmark04
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 35.11.135.36
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:27 am: | |
From the Glanz story:
quote:In years past, the city has tried to market the stadium to retail developers at Las Vegas' mammoth International Council of Shopping Centers convention. Officials are skipping this year's event in May, citing the city's $160 million-$190 million deficit.
From Gallagher's Story:
quote:City development officials will market the site - with no mention of the stadium - at the International Council of Shopping Centers convention in Las Vegas in May, Kilpatrick said.
|
Dday
Member
Username: Dday
Post Number: 826
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 65.209.165.170
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:32 am: | |
quote:Not so fast. Homeplate at Comerica is the Tiger Stadium homeplate.
Actually, that home plate was dug up and given to Ernie Harwell on the occasion of his last home broadcast. I was there, I saw it. |
Harpernottingham
Member
Username: Harpernottingham
Post Number: 10
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 66.178.227.202
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 11:27 am: | |
Make sure you all check out the new documentary on Tiger Stadium, premiering April 24 at the Gem Theatre.
"Stranded at the Corner," directed by Emmy Award winner Gary Glaser.
www.strandedatthecorner.com |
The_aram
Member
Username: The_aram
Post Number: 4786
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.213.175.233
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 11:56 am: | |
How many more times are you going to pimp that film up in here? Seriously. We get it. |
Crew
Member
Username: Crew
Post Number: 918
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 146.9.52.35
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:26 pm: | |
aram, you're so cute when you're pissy |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 1411
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:27 pm: | |
I just don't want to see TS demolished for something stupid like a big box "power center".
It would be nice, though, to determine WHAT to do with the site first prior to demo (which seems to be the foregone conclusion). That way, the redevelopment architecture/engineering team might be able to figure out how to reuse and incorporate parts of the existing structure. When you blindly demolish before you have a plan in place, you completely eliminate that opportunity. Give the designers something to work with. Without any sort of context, banality doesn't look so out of place. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1560
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.212.214.40
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 1:08 pm: | |
Jt1:
I have a simple request. Please name one person, besides yourself, who is talking about delaying the demolition of Tiger Stadium. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 3614
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 1:36 pm: | |
DaninDC, the seat where Harmon Killebrew hit his 500 foot homer is up in the ceiling at the Mall Of America. We have that and homeplate in its original place to remind us of Metropolitan Stadium in Bloomington, Minn.
Thanks for the truth, Dday. jjaba apologizes to the Forum for two assumptions that the Briggs Stadium flagpole and home plate were in use at Comerica Park. Dday and Hysteric keep jjaba honest. jjaba knows he read that somewhere so assumed the papers knew the truth.
We do know that Old Comiskey homeplate is in the parking lot and the homeplate dirt was re-used in New Comiskey.
Mostly, Detroit and the USA are throw-away societies. Ebbets Field will be reworked into the new Mets Park, BTW. On the Ebbett's Brooklyn site, there's not even a sign remembering the place. It is a field of public housing now.
jjaba, baseball fan. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 1412
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.100.158.10
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 3:13 pm: | |
quote:Mostly, Detroit and the USA are throw-away societies.
Only because we think it. |
Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve
Post Number: 2883
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.214.191.166
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 4:22 pm: | |
jjaba, don't blame your mistaken assumptions solely on the media.
I seem to remember one piece of the Final Game production involved digging up the home plate at Tiger Stadium to move it to Comerica Park. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 3619
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 5:02 pm: | |
There was some kind of parade carrying stuff like the flag pole and home plate. Now, jjaba learns differently.
Makes no difference, yesterday 12,000 fans sat in the goddamn rain because the architects didn't bring the covered grandstands with them to the new park. Please, don't get me started.
(And why should we even go to Comerica where the homeplate is in the wrong place. Gimme a park with a homeplate at Michigan and Cochrane in the SW corner of the ballyard.)
jjaba often wonders how many Tigers fans built that new place.
jjaba, baseball fan.
ps. They made the same mistake with the New Comiskey. |
Border5150
Member
Username: Border5150
Post Number: 132
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 68.58.211.149
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:54 pm: | |
It's days are numbered.
BTW jjaba, the Tigers had said before moving into comerica that they were taking homeplate and the original flagpole (and yes, they did have the Home Plate ceremony after the last game (in 99)but I think (unofficially) there was some pissing contest between the Tigers and the city that resulted in Comerica having a new home plate and flag pole.
If the City does tear down TS, I hopw they bring over a bunch of the artifacts to help add some soul to Comerica. Anybody seen the pictures of the old Busch Stadium scoreboard on display in the new park? Very cool...
One of the problems with a new house is that people want to do things differently than they did at the old house. Fans didn't want seats with an obstructed view at Comerica. The result is seating for the "haves" and the "have nots" that is Comerica Park.
Also, when the White Sox sold the naming rights to New Comiskey Park to U.S. Cellular - the team (gulp) actuallly renovated the stadium with money they got for the naming rights. One of the biggest changes was tearing the top 5-6 rows in that atrociously steep upper deck and putting up a small awning. Look at photos of that place from the early 90s and compare them to the park today. It's actually hard to recognize...
(Message edited by border5150 on April 13, 2006) |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 3623
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 12:59 am: | |
Border, you are correct. The New Comiskey rake at the top of the stadium was so steep, it was not a popular place to sit for a baseball game.
Thanks for the addl. info. about the move of the Tigers.
jjaba. |
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