 
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 50
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 71.227.26.9
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |    |
You mention the 8 Japanese biotech firms expanding as it is actual fact and that the jobs are here. They are not. Of course we can find examples of companies that will add a few jobs here and there throughout the state, Granholm meets with them, comes back from her trip and takes credit for it. We are talking about a miniscule number as compared to the entire picture of the Michigan economy. This activity is part of the normal ebb and flow of employment at certain companies and not a trend. These same firms and others will can a few dozen people here or there too, and Jen is not their taking the credit, in fact it won’t be in the papers because layoffs are a fact of life here.
Your logic is amazing, you want to give her “credit” for creating these jobs you mentioned, yet you want to shelter her from blame from any job losses these firms or any others have had. There have been many articles written about her role in the state of the economy in Michigan, it is not a question if she has been implicated in the problems at Delphi or not. The business community and the business press are the ones that are talking about Michigan being at the bottom in terms of economic outlook and jobs growth. Is it logical to say that the governor of the state is blameless for the economic conditions in the state?
Other states have lost automotive related jobs and some others still have GAINED jobs like that from Toyota, Honda and others. More cars are made in the US now than ever before, but far less in Michigan. We are experiencing a net loss, why? Well, many transplants are concerned about unions, something Granholm cannot afford to address because the unions are part of her political base. Same with the unions in state government, the NEA for the teachers, and many others. Sacrifices may need to be required in some of these sectors, but she will not ask for that because she is beholden to these groups. Please don’t interpret this as an anti-union rant either.
We have a similar problem in regard to tort reform which relates to business liability insurance issues, medical malpractice, all things that impact the cost of doing business in the state. To enact reforms here will of course mean taking on the trial lawyers. Once again, as Jen is a lawyer and depends on this group for support, nothing will be done here either.
As for the SBT, the legislature delivered a bill and she vetoed it. That is why Brooks Patterson’s petition drive to get it on the ballot was revived. You may remember he held off for a bit awaiting the governor’s decision on the bill. So it is well established that she wants to kick the can down the road and put it off until after the election. So, any business that is “on the fence” about staying here will probably leave as they see little being done to improve conditions.
It is not only about the SBT, there are many other reforms needed, Granholm doesn’t talk about them and certainly is not leading on the issue. This is not unusual I guess because her background is not one that would prepare her for this. A lawyer who hails from Vancouver with degrees from UC Berkley and Harvard (oh gawd) in French and Political Science, then on to her stint with Damon Keith and getting elected Attorney General. Her bio also says she once wanted to be an actress and was a contestant on the “Dating Game,” how nice. Now we expect this political and intellectual lightweight to be leading us out of the most difficult period in the history of this state.
You speak about the “Cool Cities” initiative as being a “public partnership” well, apparently Jenny’s buddy Kwame was not on board with the partnership when he closed the precinct at Jeffersean East. If things were going so well down there, it seems like they would have kept the damn thing open. I don’t live there so I will let the resident’s judge how “cool” it is. As far as the Corktown thing, here is the quote from Jen’s site:
• Detroit
o Applicant: Greater Corktown Development Corporation
o Project: Workers Row House Experience
o Project Description: Restoration of the Row House, an important piece of nineteenth-century workers' history, to its original 1850s appearance. The house will be a location for people interested in Corktown to visit and to learn about available housing, entertainment options, investment potential, and/or begin a self-guided audio tour of the historic neighborhood. It will be a staging area for the Annual Corktown Home and Garden Tour, a location for community meetings, potluck dinners, and video viewings. The GCDC will utilize the Workers Row House Experience as a satellite office, which will enable them to extend their neighborhood outreach efforts. The project is located in southwest Detroit, south of old Tiger Stadium. The catalyst grant will be used to preserve 3 unit row house structures, one unit as a museum and two units as a satellite office.
Notice the reference to southwest Detroit, apparently part of “Greater Corktown.” Maybe Jen just wanted to say the word “Corktown” so she appears knowledgeable about the city of Detroit. This is all flak and no substance. We need BIG IDEAS, and major reforms, not self-guided audio tours and fucking potluck dinners. I am embarrassed FOR HER, listing this shit as evidence of her economic initiatives.
Whatever, I guess when people I know talk about leaving the state, I will tell them about Corktown and let them know that Jen and her mole are on the case. If you believe people vote with their feet, then we are losing.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on April 16, 2006) |
Ilovedetroit
Member
Username: Ilovedetroit
Post Number: 2250
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 68.40.225.75
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:46 pm: | |
PFG - You think Devos why? He has offered NO plans...just ads that he is using his personal fortune to finance. He is just a wealthy white guy with money to burn who is bored with life and wants more power.
Granholm has done quite well for this state. YES we could be better but I certainly dont blame her for the state we are in. I blame the republicans. When Hillary Clinton wanted to reform health care back in the early 90s she was run out of town for being an "uppity bitch" by the Republicans...who just hated her...a smart woman has a tough row to furrow in this country. IF we had put in medical reform back then we would be a lot healthier now. People may want to blame unions and lack of cool designed cars but the real problem is healt care cost. That is why we are in the problem we are in now. The republicans are VERY responsible for that.\
I love how when old tired white guys who run around saying praise Jesus with a gun rack on their truck use the same tired old arguments. Your kind is slowing becoming extinct and it can't happen to quick! |
Michigansheik
Member
Username: Michigansheik
Post Number: 128
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 69.242.214.54
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:18 pm: | |
Is Ted Nugent going to run? |
Warriorfan
Member
Username: Warriorfan
Post Number: 316
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.43.81.191
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:25 pm: | |
I haven't forgotten our Canadian governor's opposition to the CCW law passed in 2001, claiming that it would turn Michigan into the Wild West. Except that liberal "the sky is falling" fear mongering turned out to be false, Michigan did not turn into the Wild West, crime rates went down, 130,000 Michigan citizens now carry concealed weapons for their own protection and less than one one-thousandth of a percent have had their permits revoked for violating the law.
I also have not forgotten how my tuition rates went up several times as Jennifer cut funding to the public universities. So she gets an "F" on the two issues that I am personally vested in. She will not get my vote. |
Ron
Member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 41
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.79.233
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:34 pm: | |
Perfectgentleman,
I must disagree with you on the issue of tort reform, and the allegedly related issue of the "cost of doing business" in MI. You asserted that Granholm won't do anything to limit individuals rights to jury awards because of the support from the trial lawyers.
Actually, the ONLY reason Republicans started attacking INDIVIDUALS RIGHTS (over corporate rights, which are vehemently protected by the GOP) was because the trial lawyers supported the Democratic party. It was a very clever scheme by the GOP to attack the party by attacking its monetary supporters.
As I noted in an earlier post on this thread, we have TOTAL IMMUNITY for pharmaceutical producers in MI, WHERE ARE OUR SAVINGS for pharmaceuticals? Instead, Merck knowingly and intentionally HIDES that fact that their drugs can possibly KILL, and they have no liability in MI.
Furthermore, Governor Engler and the GOP legislature passed numerous tort reform bills in MI in the mid-1990's, in order to "save" us money on the cost of insurance. Currently, you have to be damned near killed in a car accident, no matter the fault of the other driver, before you can recover anything for PAIN and SUFFERING. WHERE ARE OUR SAVINGS IN CAR INSURANCE?
The last statistics I heard were that the costs of medical malpractice suits contributed approximately 0.5% to the cost of medical care in the country! ONE HALF OF ONE PERCENT!
Stop being so "holier than thou" and admit that the real reason for tort reform is NOT to save any CONSUMERS money, or to make it "more conducive to do business," but to simply try and dry up the contributors to the Democratic Party. |
Drdetroit
Member
Username: Drdetroit
Post Number: 25
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 69.219.20.60
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:38 pm: | |
Warriorfan - Im going to guess that you are not a brain surgeon. A mind is a terrible thing to waste! |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 2114
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:48 pm: | |
As much as I'd hate to say this, I hope Ted Nugent doesn't run.
The man's a good public speaker and great debater, but he lacks the wherewithall to follow things through.
Just look at his radio show that was doing gangbusters, until he started taking endless vacations, and they were playing "Best of" episodes ad nausium.
If he's going to run, I want someone who'll be here pretty much all of the time. Not taking the summers off to do tours and whatnot. |
Chitaku
Member
Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 143
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.43.107.72
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:50 pm: | |
doesen't terrible Ted live in Crawford, Texas so he can stalk his lover GW Bush. |
Rberlin
Member
Username: Rberlin
Post Number: 507
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.76.54.108
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:50 pm: | |
Warrior, DeVos is one of the worst things that could happen to Wayne. WSU receives the highest per student funding of any other college. Granholm has fought to keep it that way. DeVos and many other Republican have been pushing for equal funding for all the state universities. They don't realise the economic effect the big three universities have on their cities and the state, or even that they deserve more funding because they have such things as med and law schools. Funding for WSU is particularly high so partly because the positive effect it has on Detroit. Granholm had no choice but to cut funding, if you recall she has been faced with a huge deficit when she took office as well as declining state revenues and other tax cuts. DeVos, besides wanting to give schools like Ferris and GVSU equal funding as schools like Michigan and Wayne, wants to further cut taxes and send this state further into the red. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 2115
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:53 pm: | |
Why can't colleges, places that are supossed to teach people how to run things efficiently, live within their means like everybody else (businesses included). |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 51
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 71.227.26.9
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:54 pm: | |
Ron, I am not holier than thou. I tried to start several businesses in this area and insurance was a major hurdle, in fact killing one of them completely. Lawsuits do drive up insurance rates I'm afraid. That is not to say I am a friend of the insurance companies, I pretty much think they suck too.
Medical malpractice claims are part of the issue, but the costs of defensive medicine and risk management are very high. I recently reported some minor symptoms and was given a battery of tests that ran up a $30k hospital bill. In the end, they were all unnecessary. The reason they did all of this of course is that if they fail to diagnose they can be sued. So they cover their ass and do all sorts of useless crap so if something goes wrong then they can defend themselves in court.
It is well established that the legal profession has been feeding at the trough of the medical industry for years. Yes, there is medical error and there should be recourse when that happens, but attorneys seem to be creating lawsuits out of whole cloth at times. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 2116
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:55 pm: | |
BTW, Ted has moved down to Crawford, TX, but he still owns his property in Jackson. |
Ddaydave
Member
Username: Ddaydave
Post Number: 381
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 67.149.185.244
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 2:00 pm: | |
Ted Nugent is a top notch chicken hawk in the early 80`s in an interview with the free press he tells about how he got out of the vietnam draft by show up at the induction board after not showering for a week urinating and shitting in his pants and took asprin and drank coffie after coffie to raise his blood pressure all in the name of staying out of the service |
Ilovedetroit
Member
Username: Ilovedetroit
Post Number: 2251
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 68.40.225.75
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 2:16 pm: | |
Ted Nugent & W Bush hmmmm why do all draft dodgers go to Crawford TX? |
Ron
Member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 43
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.79.232
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 2:18 pm: | |
PGM,
My apologies if I came off a bit harsh. I just find it terrible that people who are legitimately injured due to someone else's negligence, or worse yet, intentional acts, cannot obtain any sort of remuneration for time off work, pain, etc. That is a tragedy.
While I understand the cost of insurance is high, it is not a result of lawsuits alone. The insurance industry, along with the pharmaceutical industry, are two of the three highest profit industries ever, routinely realizing profits of 30%+. As a businessman, I'm sure you realize this to be an exceptionally high profit margin.
Insurance costs are high because insurance companies' profits are through the roof. In those areas where insurance is mandatory, i.e. auto, then the profit margins of insurance companies' should be capped, so when they lower their costs (through lobbying for tort reform or whatever) OUR COSTS FOR PREMIUMS ARE LOWERED. (as opposed to them simply adding up more profit)
Also, the GOP did start attacking trial lawyers simply because of their monetary support for the Dem. Party. They chose this issue because there have been many, many frivolous lawsuits. My outrage is directed equally to those less-than-honorable lawyers who have provided fodder for the GOP to try to eliminate individuals rights to jury trials in civil matters. (And I say this as an attorney)
With respect to defensive medicine, it certainly may be an issue. But, I do not consider it "feeding at the trough" when a doctor drops an instrument into a patient, and then stitches them up without realizing it. I do understand that medicine is an inexact science, and legitimate judgment calls should be allowed.
I am certainly a proponent of a moderate approach to reducing the costs of medical care. This would include sanctions against attorneys who bring frivolous lawsuits; but it would also include common-sense reform of the medical industry, such as allowing the purchase of pharmaceuticals from Canada.
There is no easy answer to these questions, and the process by which we may come to a concensus is too often clouded by partisan concerns. Hopefully, cooler heads may prevail. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1570
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.219.103.87
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 2:30 pm: | |
quote:Fnemecek, you've just reinterated why the guv is a bad leader: she poorly chooses her fights which simply waste what little time the legislature spends in session and she doesn't concentrate more on issues that (or should, anyway) be easily resolved.
Mcp001:
I have to disagree with you. If key legilation is langishing in a committee in the Michigan House or Senate, is it the Governor's fault for not making every single issue a ballot referendum? Or should we blame the people who are running the legistative committees that said bills are languishing in?
The Governor does not decide what bills come to a vote in the Legislature. She only gets to either sign them or veto them.
Yes, she could initiate a couple dozen Special Sessions of the Legislature and compel the Legislaure to do what it should do anyway.
Yes, she could inititate a couple dozen ballot initiatives and completely by-pass the Legislature.
If you're this upset with Governor Granholm for only doing a little to help Michigan, why aren't you even more upset with the Republican-controlled Legislature for doing even less? |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 2117
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 2:50 pm: | |
To a degree: yes.
She does have some pull with members of both chambers, regardless of party affiliation.
See above about her whispering suggestions into switalski's ear about the income tax.
And yes, you're right, the legislature is also partly to blame here.
If they'd spend more time getting bills passed, especially important bills and not frivolous legislation like naming something after Rosa Parks or Ronald Reagan, I'd have a lot more respect for them. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1571
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.219.103.87
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 3:10 pm: | |
quote:Your logic is amazing, you want to give her “credit” for creating these jobs you mentioned, yet you want to shelter her from blame from any job losses these firms or any others have had.
Again, the majority of job losses have happened at GM, Ford and Delphi. We're hit harder by them because we have a greater concentration of those jobs here than any other state in the union.
If you want to blame her for losses at those three companies, point to one credible source that has named her Administration as even a contributing factor in the problems as GM, Ford or Delphi.
quote:We have a similar problem in regard to tort reform which relates to business liability insurance issues, medical malpractice, all things that impact the cost of doing business in the state. To enact reforms here will of course mean taking on the trial lawyers. Once again, as Jen is a lawyer and depends on this group for support, nothing will be done here either.
First, I should point out that Michigan's tort system is the same now as it was when Governor Granholm took office. Most of the things we now deal with were created by a Republican-controlled Legislature and signed into law by a Republican-controlled Governor.
To dump all of the blame of her simply isn't fair. Again, the Governor can only sign or veto a given bill. If the Legislature doesn't pass legislation in the first place, her options are rather limited.
Second, I should point out that Dick DeVos doesn't have any plans to address the issue of tort reform either.
Please visit http://www.devosforgovernor.co m/ and type "tort reform" into the search box. You'll notice that comes up with no results for such a search. That's because he doesn't have a plan for addressing the issue either.
I guess he must be in the pockets of the trial lawyers as well, huh?
quote:As for the SBT, the legislature delivered a bill and she vetoed it. That is why Brooks Patterson’s petition drive to get it on the ballot was revived.
Yes, Governor Granholm vetoed that bill because it didn't specify what would be done about the $2 billion shortfall in the state's budget that would have been created by repealing the SBT.
It shouldn't have come as a suprise to anyone since that's exactly what she said she'd do. If you don't like it, contact your state representative and tell him or her to spell what spending cuts they intend to make to make up that $2 billion in lost tax revenue.
quote:You speak about the “Cool Cities” initiative as being a “public partnership” well, apparently Jenny’s buddy Kwame was not on board with the partnership when he closed the precinct at Jeffersean East. (Emphasis mine.)
First, please learn to spell the word "Jefferson". It's not that hard.
Second, why are you blaming Governor Granholm for Mayor Kilpatick's reorganization of the Detroit Police Department? What does she, or any governor for that matter, have to do with something like that?
Shall I start blaming you for the bagel that I burned this morning?
Regarding Southwest Detroit and the Corktown neighborhood, they are two different neighborhoods that are a couple of miles apart from one another (Michigan Ave. & Vernor vs. Michigan Ave. and Trumbull).
If you start spending more time in Detroit, you'll learn the different neighborhoods yourself and you won't keep making mistakes like this.
Both Southwest and Corktown were designated as a Cool City (Southwest in 2004 and Corktown in 2005).
The fact that we haven't seen much secondary development come out of Corktown has more to do with the fact that they only got their designation a few months ago. That's why I listed the examples from 2004. They've had enough time to produce secondary development beyond the initial catalyst project.
(Message edited by fnemecek on April 16, 2006) |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.219.103.87
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 3:22 pm: | |
quote:To a degree: yes.
She does have some pull with members of both chambers, regardless of party affiliation.
See above about her whispering suggestions into switalski's ear about the income tax.
Okay, we'll add a third option that Governor Granholm could do.
#1. Call a Special Session of the Legislature and compel them to do what they should do anyway;
#2. Pursue a ballot initiative to by-pass the Legislature;
#3. Find a Democrat (like Senator Michael Switalksi) to sponsor legislation on her behalf and hope the Republicans go along with it. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 2120
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 3:35 pm: | |
Again, as long as it isn't for some publicity-whoring scheme like naming a bridge or road after Ronald Reagan or Rosa Parks, I have no problem with that.
That's not a sign of leadership. That's just a pathetic attempt at getting attention...especially in an election year. |
Drdetroit
Member
Username: Drdetroit
Post Number: 26
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 69.219.20.60
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 7:30 pm: | |
google "dick devos scam"
Another story about billionaire DICK
http://www.mediatransparency.o rg/story.php?storyID=4 |
Skamour14
Member
Username: Skamour14
Post Number: 49
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 35.8.218.113
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 7:54 pm: | |
after giving this thread much reading.... I have come to the conclusion, that #1. If you have a name like Dick...... you had better be big, and while the economy suffers...... and your a billionaire.... your Dick, better be the head in the house/mansion/state! I only believe that a ripe young Jenny would suit his taste for being dressed up in a bikini, and counting up his cash!!!!! Hugh, watch out the new Govena is coming through!!!! |
Drdetroit
Member
Username: Drdetroit
Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 69.219.20.60
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 11:24 pm: | |
google " dick devos scam"
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/v iewtopic.php?topic=64244&forum =19
More stories about tricky dick! |
Detroit48213
Member
Username: Detroit48213
Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 69.219.20.60
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 1:05 am: | |
Good info DR. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 1978
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.230.22.99
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 2:18 am: | |
Wow, thanks, Dr - I didn't know he was such an advocate of cutting taxes. That is good news for Michigan, sounds like DeVos is the guy to vote for. |
Skamour14
Member
Username: Skamour14
Post Number: 51
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 35.8.218.111
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 2:28 am: | |
wow karl just got hot for Dick...... would that be a hot karl??? or what? I sure as hell dont want to hear of good things and then see the scam artists get us in the long run...... guys Keep the "shit" clean ok! |
Rberlin
Member
Username: Rberlin
Post Number: 509
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.76.54.108
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 7:35 am: | |
Granholm has advocated cutting taxes too, in fact she has quite a bit. And unlike Engler she didn't do it at the end of her last term never bothering to find a way to pay for them. DeVos and the legislature just want to cut, cut, cut, and at some point you have to worry about schools, roads and grandma's heart pills.
We'll also just ignore the Amway question all together, as well as his lack of political experience and refusal to give us any indication what we could expect from him should he be elected. |
Drdetroit
Member
Username: Drdetroit
Post Number: 29
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 69.219.20.60
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 11:58 am: | |
Karl = The kind of voter that republican's love. ( "cutting taxes") Just repeat what you have been programmed to say. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 1983
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.230.22.99
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 12:14 pm: | |
No, cutting taxes brings in more money to the govt and is what works. Cutting taxes in Michigan will make the state more attractive to businesses (and their workers) thinking about relocating to MI. Raising taxes, or leaving them high, will do just the opposite.
But feel free to continue in your ignorance, Drdetroit - at the peril of the COD and the great State of Michigan. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1575
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.236.145.111
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 12:42 pm: | |
Karl:
Then please explain why the states with the lowest unemployment rates also have some of the highest state tax burdens.
The Laffer Curve only makes sense when you're already sitting at one of the extreme ends of it. For everyone else, like those of us in Michigan, it's just nonsense. |
Skamour14
Member
Username: Skamour14
Post Number: 58
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 35.8.218.120
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 2:05 pm: | |
Bally whoo Ha nonsense.... and then we all woke up to find.... Hot Karl in office, with a big Dick @ his side |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 1985
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 72.25.177.194
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 3:35 pm: | |
Fnemecek - when times are great, folks don't pay as much attention to taxes - and in states that have shortages of workers along with businesses making money, taxes are secondary - for now.
In Michigan, it is just the opposite - too many workers, not enough profitable industries. To help the ailing industries and attract new ones, make the state more attractive. Lower taxes and many available skilled workers mean companies that are looking to lower costs (even by moving) might put Michigan on their short list.
Skamour14 must be at happy hour already, obviously not in the "skilled worker" group mentioned above. |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 585
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.74.205
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 3:43 pm: | |
Unlike Karl, who is not in any "work" catagory. |
Skamour14
Member
Username: Skamour14
Post Number: 60
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 35.10.217.93
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 6:03 pm: | |
Hot Karl... we all heard from around the way as they say on the streets... you are a skilled worker..... I wonder what all that means... all i know is you need to stay away from caddilac square late at nights... but what do I know... your a big Dick supporter |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 1991
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.230.22.99
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:37 pm: | |
Yup, I support DeVos - and Skamour14 needs to learn to spell. |
Rberlin
Member
Username: Rberlin
Post Number: 512
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.76.54.108
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 11:59 pm: | |
Yeah, well I think DeVos needs to get specific about what he plans to do for this state outside of the "tax cuts will cure everything" cult. I also don't think most -sane- people will buy into his business man facade when they're reminded about Amway and Dick's legacy as its head. |
Skamour14
Member
Username: Skamour14
Post Number: 64
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 35.8.131.127
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 12:17 am: | |
didnt you hear???? I got my spelling lesson from Danny, and Chitaku.. at least I can spell Bums |
Gmich99
Member
Username: Gmich99
Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 65.29.97.102
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 12:34 am: | |
Doesn't our Republic legislature share more of the blame? |
Drdetroit
Member
Username: Drdetroit
Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 69.219.20.60
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 7:33 am: | |
Google (Dick Devos amway scam)
more tricky dick stories.
http://www.workingforchange.co m/article.cfm?itemid=19039 |
Drdetroit
Member
Username: Drdetroit
Post Number: 33
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 69.219.20.60
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 1:29 pm: | |
more data on tricky DICK.
http://www.mediatransparency.o rg/story.php?storyID=4 |
Stipes
Member
Username: Stipes
Post Number: 35
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 1:49 pm: | |
If I lived in Michigan I would vote for Granholm,,,she's hot!!!! |
Metrodetguy
Member
Username: Metrodetguy
Post Number: 2492
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 75.10.25.162
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 4:10 pm: | |
Ron, I hope your candidacy offers up more than incredibly simplistic and erroneous comparisons (Kerry and Hendrix?). First, are you seriously comparing the electorate of the entire US to that of Detroit? Second, the Hendrix campaign certainly offered a platform and wasn't simply "vote for me, I'm not the other guy". Third, although that claim could apply more so to the Kerry campaign, even then, it is incredibly simplistic, not to mention inaccurate.
If that is an example of your type of logic, then all I can say is good luck. |
Rberlin
Member
Username: Rberlin
Post Number: 513
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.76.54.108
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 4:15 pm: | |
In before ILD! |
Skamour14
Member
Username: Skamour14
Post Number: 67
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 35.10.217.91
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 4:51 pm: | |
Down With BIg Dick... Down!!!!!!! |
Ron
Member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 45
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.93.101
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 5:19 pm: | |
MDG,
My analysis of the reasons for the Kilpatrick and Bush victories is sound. This analysis is based upon the types of campaigns that were ran, and has no significance to any comparison of the US electorate to the Detroit electorate. There are certain political strategies that ring true despite the characteristics of the electorate; one of them being to breed discontent with the status quo. As was seen, though, this strategy alone rarely is successful.
This analysis also did not compare the candidates at all, simply their campaigns. From your post, I do not think that you are disputing the notion that both Bush and Kilpatrick turned out their supporters (i.e. their base), simply the assertion that Mr. Hendrix did not run on a platform other than, "vote for me because I'm not him." If this is an incorrect assumption, please clarify.
While I was a Hendrix supporter, and understand that he did have a platform (from reading his website), he did not publicly campaign on the platform other than to say "Look at my website." Instead, he campaigned on the fact that "We're headed for bankruptcy," etc. without articulating, in his public appearances, how he would address the issues.
Additionally, my understanding of what occurred at the Detroit Economic Club debate was that Mayor Kilpatrick was able to substantively articulate his vision for Detroit, while Mr. Hendrix was not. This clearly speaks to the type of campaign he ran. (Again, I was a Hendrix supporter).
This analysis compares the types of campaigns run, and has nothing to do with the electorate. And, as you may know, political strategy is best when it is simple (Remember: "It's the economy, stupid"?) So your assertion that my analysis is simplistic is actually a complement.
However, if you still believe that the analysis is inaccurate, please provide some specifics as to how it is so. Again, while I agree that Mr. Hendrix did have a platform, as indicated on his website, he did not campaign on that platform in his public appearances, hence his failure to get people to vote FOR him rather than simply AGAINST Kilpatrick.
Finally, this observation had nothing to do with my current campaign. This analysis dealt with my perspective as a political observer, not a candidate. If you would peruse my campaign blog, I'm sure you will find some interesting ideas that, I believe, will address some of the issues facing the 4th District today. I also invite your constructive criticism as to your proposals for solving some of the problems we face as a District.
Thanks,
Ron |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1581
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.213.204.151
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 6:31 pm: | |
quote:And, as you may know, political strategy is best when it is simple (Remember: "It's the economy, stupid"?) So your assertion that my analysis is simplistic is actually a complement.
Amen.
The way things stand now, DeVos will attack with "The economy sucks."
Granholm will retaliate with, "What would you do differently?"
And all DeVos will be able to say is essentially, "I'd do the same things that you've wanted to do for a couple of years now, but that the Republicans in the Legislature wouldn't let you do."
Not exactly a winning strategy for the DeVos camp. |
Rberlin
Member
Username: Rberlin
Post Number: 514
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.76.54.108
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 8:16 pm: | |
I don't even think he'll take it that far. I think, "I'll cut taxes, won't say which, won't say how much, won't say how they'll help," is probably all we're going to hear from him. |
Drdetroit
Member
Username: Drdetroit
Post Number: 34
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 69.219.20.60
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 9:44 pm: | |
More tricky DICK info.
http://jmaximus.blogspot.com/2 006/02/con-artist-running-for- governor.html |
Ilovedetroit
Member
Username: Ilovedetroit
Post Number: 2258
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 68.40.225.75
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 12:14 am: | |
Ron - I was a supporter of Kilpatrick. The reasons Hendrix lost because he was a shallow candidate. If the election had been earlier he would have won. However, as time went on people began to see who he really was...an empty suit with no vision or plan. He also spent too much time campaigning in the burbs. Here is a little true story... a friend of mine went to a houseparty for him in Grosse Pointe. There were about 50 some folks there...as far as my friend could see he was the only Detroiter....that is a problem. He needed to spend more time walking the streets and meeting his constituents. Also the press beat up KK so bad that people began to wonder "why is Freman so great" once they looked into they saw that he was just another politician with no plan and a history that wasn't so great(school board takeover chairman and family problems) when you added it all up he was no different than the mayor...and at least they knew they mayor and knew he had a plan. |
Drdetroit
Member
Username: Drdetroit
Post Number: 36
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 69.219.20.60
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:22 am: | |
I bet ron voted for Bob Dole who said he didn't have a plan just trust me " Who do you trust" |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1582
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.215.246.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 10:31 am: | |
quote:I don't even think he'll take it that far. I think, "I'll cut taxes, won't say which, won't say how much, won't say how they'll help," is probably all we're going to hear from him.
And that's even better for the Granholm's re-election bid. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 2006
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 72.25.177.194
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:43 am: | |
Fnemecek said: "And that's even better for the Granholm's re-election bid."
If you keep on doin' what you're doin', you'll keep gettin' what you got.
So keep Granholm. Michigan's in great shape. DeVos has no experience in fiscal matters, has never created nor run anything large, and has never dealt with foreign competition. Further, he might cut taxes, and that will poison the water, starve the children and throw Grandma in the street. If we don't elect him, he'll remain as a clerk at 7/11, right in line with his talents. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1585
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.215.246.115
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 12:19 pm: | |
quote:Further, he might cut taxes, and that will poison the water, starve the children and throw Grandma in the street.
Keep telling yourself that if you like, Karl.
The fact of the matter is that there isn't anyone running for governor who is arguing against cutting taxes.
The difference between the two candidates is Granholm wants to cut taxes now vs. DeVos who wants to wait another 20 months.
If you think Granholm is so bad then please explain the benefit of delaying the tax cut for another 20 months. |
Drdetroit
Member
Username: Drdetroit
Post Number: 38
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 69.219.20.60
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 12:47 am: | |
So Ted ( Yea haa ) Nugent has moved to Crawford Texas, well now he can get it on with his ken folks and not worry about appeareances. Yeaaaaaa Haaaaaaaa Usa Usa Usa Usa |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 2035
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 72.25.177.194
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:24 pm: | |
From today's Wall Street Journal:
Door-to-Door Faith
The co-founder of Amway shares a faith in more than his products.
BY ARTHUR C. BROOKS
Friday, April 21, 2006 12:01 a.m.
Richard DeVos believes that religious faith, private enterprise, charity and commercial life are connected in a straightforward way: "Freedom is a gift from God," he tells me. "With freedom, we can show compassion. And compassion breeds success."
Mr. DeVos certainly knows success. He is the co-founder, with his childhood friend Jay Van Andel, of Amway Corp., the international direct seller of cleaning products, cosmetics and other household items. The two men started the company in their Grand Rapids, Mich., homes in 1959. Still in the DeVos and Van Andel families today, Amway has grown into a $6 billion conglomerate operating under the parent firm Alticor. The success of Amway and its related companies has made Mr. DeVos one of America's wealthiest men.
Among the forces behind his financial success, Mr. DeVos maintains, is his faith. He is a life-long practicing member of the Christian Reformed denomination (a group of Calvinist evangelicals). His deeply held beliefs are evident in all areas of his life, particularly his philanthropy and business practices.
Mr. DeVos tells me that when he was married 53 years ago, his wife, Helen, informed him they would be tithing their income, according to biblical teaching--10% to charity and no excuses. They have never deviated from this rule, he says, even during the early years of their marriage when they faced financial hardship. They have also always practiced the habit of giving 50% of their charity to explicitly Christian causes. Over the years the couple has donated nearly $400 million to charitable causes in health, education, the arts, public policy and--especially--religion.
The DeVos Foundation has made major supporting grants to the schools the couple attended, as well as to churches, missions and Christian schools in Michigan and Florida, where they currently reside. They also gave $1.8 million in 2004 to establish the DeVos Center for Religion and Civil Society at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, to study the interplay between religion and public policy in America. So prolific has been their giving that today, in New York, the William E. Simon Foundation will award the DeVoses its prestigious Philanthropic Leadership Prize, begun in 2001 to recognize "charitable giving . . . that not only achieves positive results, but also, in the words on Andrew Carnegie, 'help[s] people to help themselves.' "
The philanthropy of the DeVoses has fulfilled more than just their duty as Christians. The book of Proverbs, as Mr. DeVos notes, teaches that "one man gives freely, yet gains even more; another withholds unduly, but comes to poverty." For some this is jut a metaphor for rewards in Heaven. But for Mr. DeVos, it is a promise of prosperity on earth as well. "God blesses a generous heart," he observes, "when you give, he makes the pot fuller."
If his faith is what animates Mr. DeVos the most, freedom is a close second--economic freedom. For him, free enterprise is a philosophical North Star, a guide to unparalleled opportunity. Like all freedoms, he believes, free enterprise is a gift from God that will help to enable the fullest development of the individual. It is at the very heart of Amway's business model: Anybody--rich or poor--can start a business selling Amway products. To do so--through direct sales, buyer networks and multilevel marketing--requires dedication and hard work but little capital and a great deal of dedication and effort. This model has blessed not only Mr. DeVos and his family but also, he tells me, the thousands of people who have sold Amway products over the years and prospered.
Predictably, Mr. DeVos's rock-solid evangelical and free-market views--and the philanthropy with which he backs them up--have not made him many friends on the political left. The National Center for Responsive Philanthropy (a liberal philanthropy watchdog group) recently singled out the DeVos Foundation as part of a small group of foundations that finance the "right wing policy juggernaut," supposedly to the detriment of "civil rights, tax equity, affirmative action, gay and lesbian rights and so many other concerns of ordinary Americans."
At age 80, though, Richard DeVos has no interest in changing course. He has retired from the day-to-day leadership of his family's business, but he keeps busy. He manages his philanthropy and maintains a hectic public-speaking schedule to spread his message of Christian values and free enterprise as far as he possibly can. Given the stakes--America's faith and its devotion to liberty--he has no plans to stop.
Mr. Brooks, a professor at Syracuse University's Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs, is writing a book on American charity. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1590
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.214.179.241
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:07 pm: | |
Not a bad article, Karl. It clearly shows that Dick DeVos' dad is a decent human being.
Of course, you still haven't explained why we should delay eliminating the SBT - as the DeVos and the GOP have advocated. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 2046
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.230.22.99
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:10 pm: | |
Sorry Fnem - No reason to delay, and Granholm is certainly in the best position to get it going now if that is truly what she advocates. Sure would be a positive move, and one that might clinch the election for her. |
Rberlin
Member
Username: Rberlin
Post Number: 521
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.76.54.108
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 11:41 pm: | |
I wonder how many of the poor saps Dick Sr. and Mr. Van Aldel duped out of their life savings were good Christians? I mean, I'm not a Christian, but I have read the Bible, and his "Christian values," don't seem to me to be very Christ like.
But anyway, I'm so glad that the DeVos family has held true to their promise to give money to so many lobbyists, err, I mean charities, so that they can do God's work. The Calvinistic, Evangelical God of course, and his work tends to be telling me what to do in every aspect of my, and my families', lives. Thank you Mr. DeVos for dedicating so much of your money and time to forcing your religious beliefs and values on me. And thank you Mr. Brooks for reminding me why I seldom read the editorial page of the WSJ.
I got a laugh out of this-
"This model has blessed not only Mr. DeVos and his family but also, **he tells me**, the thousands of people who have sold Amway products over the years and prospered."
Needs the editor's note, "Thousands of people were unavailable for comment." |
Rberlin
Member
Username: Rberlin
Post Number: 523
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.76.54.108
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 12:02 am: | |
As for the SBT, the Republicans wanted to use the SBT as a wedge issue. They sent her a horrible bill, $2 BILLION with no plan to either make up the difference one way or the other. They knew she would have to kill it or face re-election with a $2 BILLION deficit hanging over her head. Either way they thought they had her. So what she is trying to do right now is steal their issue. By upping the ante she both neutralizes Peterson's petition drive (designed to get out Oakland County conservatives who love good old fashioned fiscal conservatism but tend not to like the more Bush/DeVos style, overtly religious and socially right GOP) and forces the Republicans to either kill the SBT tax cut in committee or give Granholm a win.
It's an election year, don't be expecting anyone in Lansing to be working for us, or be worried about Michigan. They're too busy covering their asses right now. |
Karl
Member
Username: Karl
Post Number: 2051
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.230.22.99
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 12:14 am: | |
Yes Rberlin, your argument is perfect. Everyone who calls themselves Christian is not Christ-like or perfect, and you have it all figured out. Likewise, folks who've died or been injured in automobiles have no case against the Big 3, do they? After all, those cars worked perfectly and there were only perfect folks out on the road driving them - therefore, no lawsuits against GM, Ford or Chrysler - at least in your world there aren't.
Just keep sippin' that leftie KoolAid and watchin' out for those pesky Republicans, who've never done a good thing in their lives, and never will. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 4007
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.173.154
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 11:55 am: | |
If Dick DeVos becomes govenor this actions of proving the ecomony in Michigan would happen:
He would raise deficit spending up to $50 to 100 Million dollars for employment causing its unemployment rate to be reduced from 7% to 5% with in the next two years. But that high deficit spending would lead to a BIGGER debt of up to 2 billion dollars with in the next 2 years. But the bright side is you will have a good place to work while this nation is experiencing higher GDP growth.
I say to you DON'T VOTE FOR DICK DEVOS!!! |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 927
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 12:28 pm: | |
It would to come from bond issues for special projects because the MI Constitution states that MI must have a balenced budget every year, no racking up major debt like W is doing right now. I still don't like Dick DeVos and won't vote for him, since I still have not received any answers to my questions I e-mail his campaign over a month ago. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 4010
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.173.154
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 1:06 pm: | |
So much for the guy who saved Grand Rapids. Go home DeVos! Grandholm will take it from here. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1591
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.207.172
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 1:24 pm: | |
quote:I still don't like Dick DeVos and won't vote for him, since I still have not received any answers to my questions I e-mail his campaign over a month ago.
You're so pessimistic, Bob.
Look at it this way, the DeVos campaign sent you their entire strategy for improving Michigan's economy, along with their entire plan for protecting the Great Lakes and their entire plan for everything else. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 4015
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.173.154
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 1:29 pm: | |
Fnemecek,
Billionaire "DICK" can go back to Grand Rapids for economy plan would destroy deficit spending of out tax dollars resulting in 1 to 2 billion dollar debt. KEEP GRANDHOLM IN OFFICE. |
Motorcitymayor2026
Member
Username: Motorcitymayor2026
Post Number: 710
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.21.44.129
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 1:37 pm: | |
I emailed Dick DeVos questions regarding Detroit and his plans, and why he has created jobs all over America, except in Detroit City. His response:
"You're right. Many of the issues you asked about need to be addressed. Due to the high amount of feedback we are recieving though, we cannot specifically answer those questions at this time. Look at Devos's recent blogs on his campaign trips to Detroit!"
Vote Granholm |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1592
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 69.212.52.47
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 4:56 pm: | |
^ Dang! he used a lot of words to say, "No comment." |
Motorcitymayor2026
Member
Username: Motorcitymayor2026
Post Number: 718
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.231.189.137
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 6:52 pm: | |
exactly. He's got no plan, no idea |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 2128
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 7:21 pm: | |
Actually, there's a lot of questions that tricky dick refuses to supply any answers for, except for the pat response of "coming soon..."
Sorry, we've already had a perfect example of seat-of-the-pants governing by the current guv.
Is there any third party candidates running this year?!? |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.13.253
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 10:29 pm: | |
No third party candidates with even a decent shot of getting 5 or 10% of the vote. It's time for the GOP to back to the drawing board and find a better candidate to put up against Granholm while they still have a chance at winning the Governor's office. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 2140
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 4:57 pm: | |
I wouldn't be so sure about that, Fnemecek.
Given the lack of interest in the annointed candidates being shoved down our throats, I strongly feel that a third party candidate would pull significantly more than 5-10%.
Maybe if the right person is tapped (and their campaign ran correctly), enough to tip the election in their favor... |
Compn
Member
Username: Compn
Post Number: 56
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 65.29.121.215
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 6:33 pm: | |
my friend says he will vote for devos because he doesnt know of any 'granholm accomplishments' 'she doesnt have her name on any bridges' etc
can someone come up with a nice list i can print for him?
amway is a glorified pyramid sceme where the top get richer and the bottom get to pay more for bulk goods (like an expensive costco/samsclub). i know! my friend is in quixtar! i've been to quixtar.com!!! i had to wash my hands afterward. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 2144
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 6:43 pm: | |
Let's see, the guv signed off on:
- hiking the state income tax.
- "advancing" the state property tax.
- raising a plethorea of taxes in order to preserve the "safety net" for Michigan's most vulnerable citizens (apparently if you cannot afford to pay into the system, then you immediately become someone of interest for the guv to "help out"). |
Drdetroit
Member
Username: Drdetroit
Post Number: 60
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 64.136.27.229
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 8:57 pm: | |
Mcp001 - I see you are the ms-information pimp just like the Amway Pimp. I guess it really is hard out there for a pimp. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 2145
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 9:24 pm: | |
Oh really?
Then which of the above didn't she sign off on? |
Themax
Member
Username: Themax
Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 69.246.123.118
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 12:02 pm: | |
http://www.michigan.gov/som/0, 1607,7-192--141893--,00.html
"...the MI Opportunity Partnership reached its one year goal of placing 30,000 workers ahead of schedule. The program, which matches unemployed workers with existing job vacancies, is a key element of Granholm’s comprehensive plan to help the state’s economy." |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1608
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.13.235
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 12:07 pm: | |
Mcp001:
What's your source for saying that any of those things have happened?
I've been paying Michigan income taxes for almost 20 years now and haven't noticed them going up. |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2552
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.58.162
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 12:25 pm: | |
Is anybody else getting tired of seeing the endless Dick ads yet? Enought already. One would think it is October. They are getting as pervasive as Rock Finanacial ads at the Palace.
What cracks me up are his 'slumming with the middle class' ads where you see a billionaire driving what appears to be a mid-range automobile, with the presumably subliminal message that he is commuting to work just like the 'rest of us', just another working stiff. Uh huh, right.
He appears to be decent, involved in his religion in positive ways, yet I wonder how playing the phony parts politicians get guided by their handlers fits with his his concept of honesty.
And where is all this money coming from? How does he have the ability to run a full force ad campaign in April? This is unpredented in Michigan as far as I can recall. |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 274
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.214.178.28
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 12:29 pm: | |
^^$60 million in the war chest.^^^ |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2553
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.58.162
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 12:45 pm: | |
Source please. ^ |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 2150
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 12:47 pm: | |
Fnemecek,
Here (income tax).
Here (property tax).
And here (cigarette tax hike).
quote:Where is all this money coming from? How does he have the ability to run a full force ad campaign in April?
I hope that this is a rhetorical question, Lowell.
The man is a little weasel.
'Nuff said! |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2554
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.58.162
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 1:08 pm: | |
Answering one of my questions... DeVos TV campaign rolls past $2 million mark |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 277
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 70.236.164.110
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 1:29 pm: | |
L- Sorry I don't have the "$60 million war chest" link. It was a number that I read early on. I thought "no way", but it seems to make sense with the enormous ad blitz we are seeing so early.
Scary to think that there is that much money to be spent on one side of a governors race... |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2556
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.58.162
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 1:55 pm: | |
What is the amount he is spending compared to abolition of the SBT for you and your friends? Peanuts.
I wonder if Amway's SBT payment is public information? Then we could see exactly how much Mr. DeVos would benefit, year after year, if it was abolished or, more likely, shifted onto te shoulders of others. |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 278
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.213.204.30
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 3:07 pm: | |
^^Oh, I forgot about your Pro-Bureaucrat Agenda. And how it's wise economic and social policy to "keep the pigs feeding at the public trough as long as possible." |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1611
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.13.235
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 3:43 pm: | |
Mcp001:
First and foremost, thank you for sharing those links and refreshing my memory.
Regarding the income tax, we're only talking about delaying a cut in state income tax by a few months back in 2004. At that point, the State was dealing with some serious budget problems and had already made cuts in education and just about every other aspect of public spending.
Given a choice between cutting even more public services and delaying a 0.1% drop in the state income tax, I think she made the right choice.
And the Republican-controlled Legislature must've thought so as well since they passed the thing.
The same thing goes for the cigarette tax hike. I'd rather pay more for cigarettes than release prisoners from jail.
As for the change in when property taxes are due, the rate remained constanst. We're paying the same amount, only the due date changed. Since the change was phased in over three years, it's not an issue, in my opinion. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1612
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.13.235
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 3:48 pm: | |
quote:^^Oh, I forgot about your Pro-Bureaucrat Agenda. And how it's wise economic and social policy to "keep the pigs feeding at the public trough as long as possible."
Futurecity:
Please specify. Which public employees, or bureaucrats if you prefer, do you propose that we layoff?
The ones that keep criminals behind bars? Teachers? Who do you want to layoff? |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 2151
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 4:11 pm: | |
I wouldn't go so far as to call it serious budget problem, as just plain poor leadership. The state's economy was in a slump and instead of making the right choice for those of us working in Michigan, Lansing took the easy choice.
The income tax cut was already signed into law and several scheduled decreased had already been implemented.
My local rep tried to use the "delay" argument as well, but when something is to go down and doesn't, then that's an increase in my book.
I see this possibly degenerating into a circular argument, so I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I would suggest that you re-read the income tax "advance" though.
What I got from it was that at the end of the three-year cycle, Lansing will be something like one year ahead in its tax collections. I highly doubt that the good people in Lansing, regardless of which "party" they belong to, will be too inclined to return our money. |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 279
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.213.204.30
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 4:33 pm: | |
Nem: From a previous post:
"And according to the US Census Bureau there were 65,914 full-time (non-education) state employees in Michigan in 2004.
Here is the summary from that site of a Michigan/Ohio state full-time (non-education) employment comparison for 2004:
MICHIGAN
Financial Administration 4633
Other Admin 1455
Judicial and Legal 1864
Police Total 2662
Corrections 17626
Highways 2775
Public Welfare 10500
Health 1535
Hospitals 11472
Social Ins Admin 1190
Parks & Rec 269
Natural Resources 4613
Other 5320
TOTAL 65914
OHIO
Financial Administration 8274
Other Admin 837
Judicial and Legal 2732
Police Total 2663
Corrections 16082
Highways 7142
Public Welfare 2813
Health 3691
Hospitals 11436
Social Ins Admin 2359
Parks & Rec 622
Natural Resources 3457
Other 4618
TOTAL 66726
Michigan Population 10.11mil
Ohio Population 11.45mil
Michigan
State Workers/1000 population - 6.51
Ohio
State Workers/1000 population - 5.82
If staffing levels for state employees in Michigan were modeled after the inefficeint state of Ohio, Michigan would only have 58,885 employees, which is about 7,000 fewer than the US Census Bureau says that we had in 2004. Certainly if you modeled Michigan after a more efficient state than Ohio, even fewer state employees would be required.
I wonder what the citizens of Michigan are getting for the extra 7,000+ state workers that the citizens of Ohio aren't. My guess is absolutely nothing. " |
Ron
Member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 82
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.79.226
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 5:07 pm: | |
People speak of government employment as a negative thing. While I agree that there is some waste in government, what we must realize is that government is an employer just as GM, Ford, etc. are. What do those of you who propose tax cuts propose we do with those government workers who will inevitably be laid off by pushing unwise (at this stage) tax cuts? What private sector employers will pick up the slack and hire those workers? In case you haven't noticed, we currently have a shortage of employers in the state right now.
Do we pay them to perform a service as a bureacrat, or do we pay them in the form of unemployment compensation, human services, etc? One way or the other, we are going be paying them.
My mother is an employee of DHS, and believe me, she is not sitting idly by, wasting the day away. She works from the minute she walks in the door, to the minute she walks out. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1614
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.13.235
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 8:28 pm: | |
Futurecity:
I disagree with your use of population as the determining factor in how large Michigan's civil service should be.
For example, from the figures that you cited above, Michigan has considerably more people dedicated to managing our natural resources than Ohio does (4,613 in Michigan vs. 3,457 in Ohio). That's doesn't have anything to do with our population, it's because we have more natural resources to begin with than Ohio does.
Michigan has a total land mass of 265,172 sq. km. but Ohio only has 116,096 - less than half our size.
Michigan also has a lot more water than Ohio does, with 41.5% of the land being shoreline in Michigan vs. only 8.7% in Ohio.
Again, more natural resources means a need for people dedicated to manage them.
This doesn't mean that there isn't a way that we can do more with less or that we can't learn things from other states. It does, however, mean that we have to move away from overly simple comparisons of our state.
If you have any specific suggestions on what we should do, I'd love to hear them. And I'm sure Dick DeVos would, too.
(Message edited by fnemecek on April 30, 2006) |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 280
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 68.255.244.29
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 9:22 pm: | |
I guess if you can't use an adjacent, similiarly sized state, with a similar economic base and background, that happens to be doing something slightly more efficient than your own state, as an example, then well, that explains a lot of the problem here.
Your point that Michigan may need more natural resource employees has merit, but I noticed that you overlooked the stats on public welfare employees (whatever that means) and Michigan's 10,500 bureaucrats to Ohio's 2,813.
7,000 extra bureaucrats at $80,000.00 each in wages and benefits is an extra half-billion dollars a year.
I don't quite get the push behind keeping an extra army of bureaucrats fat and happy in Lansing at the expense of working people.
And again, I am not sure what Michigan is getting for an extra 7,000+ state workers each year that the citizens of Ohio are not. My guess is absolutely nothing, except getting shaken down for an extra half-billion hard-earned dollars. |
Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 52
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 9:36 pm: | |
quote:What do those of you who propose tax cuts propose we do with those government workers who will inevitably be laid off by pushing unwise (at this stage) tax cuts? What private sector employers will pick up the slack and hire those workers?
What a perfect encapsulation of the entitlement mentality that pervades this state!
The state takes their share and never has to tighten its belt. If tax cuts are "unwise (at this stage)", I doubt that you could ever agree on a time when it would be wise.
Are these state workers somehow more deserving to be sheltered from the same economic forces that buffet those who work in the private sector?
Considering the recent "quality" work performed by the parole arm of the Michigan Department of Corrections, there could be a few terminations there and we would be just as safe. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 979
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 9:48 pm: | |
"What a perfect encapsulation of the entitlement mentality that pervades this state!"
I'm so fukking tired of reading this I might just employ Sporty to hunt down and shoot the next person who posts the sentiment |
Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 53
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 10:14 pm: | |
OK Lilpup, instead of making vulgar threats, explain to me why you agree with Ron that state workers should have only two possible sources of compensation - to be employed as a bureaucrat or paid as an unemployment compensation client - and since "One way or the other, we are going be paying them", it is better to keep them in their state jobs.
That is what Ron wrote and that is why I wrote that his "entitlement mentality" blinded him to the possibility that there is a third way - they can look for a job in the private sector, just like everyone else.
And if they can't find a new job here in MI, then they may have to look elsewhere, just like too many others are having to do these days. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 980
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:25 pm: | |
I never stated that I agree with Ron - but I strongly disagree with the idea that some nebulous "entitlement mentality" is the problem with the state or any specific region therein. As a matter of fact I strongly feel that the idea of such a 'mentality' is a gross insult to everyone who works here, either in the private OR public sector. Anyone who can legally work in Michigan has a right to seek employment here and make attempts to hold their job. Anyone in this state who truly believes they are irreplaceable, be it the governor, the CEO of GM, the owner of the store on the corner, or the guy who cleans your shitter, they're only fooling themselves. But anyone who was employed here and loses their job has a right to unemployment benefits if they are eligible as specified by law.
That said those thinking that major tax cuts and radically shrinking government are the cure all for this state are strictly thinking short term and probably purely for personal gain.
I'd also like to see where the $80,000 wage figure comes from. The majority of the people I know make nowhere near that much. |
Ron
Member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 83
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.92.162
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:34 pm: | |
Mike,
You miss the point of my post. At this point, there is no doubt that it is unwise to cut taxes. Your statement that I would never agree that tax cuts are appropriate is a mere attempt to debate this issue with the usual talking points of the GOP. If the state lays off employees, they are entitled to workers compensation. Period. Whether you agree with it or not, workers comp fulfills a very necessary function. It has nothing to do with an "entitlement mentality." I would rather refer to it as a "realistic mentality." Let's not debate this issue in fantasy land. Where are those people going to go?
You say that government employees should not be exempt from the market. They're not. Michigan has reduced its work force by the thousands, whether by layoffs or natural attrition. This issue is aside from the private sector employees who have become unemployed over the last 5-6 years.
Furthermore, it is easy to point out a few examples of below average performance by government employees as an example of why government needs to be reduced, but again, who will perform the function of parole officers. It is easy to complain about the problems, and say the solution is that government needs to be reduced, but you and I both know that it is an extremely intellectually feeble attempt to promote the conservative agenda of less government to lower taxes for those who need relief the least.
Who is going to do the work that these government employees currently do? Don't just say we need to lay people off and lower taxes. Again, that is a weak-minded, and intellectually dishonest, answer to a very complex problem. And in case you haven't noticed, the state is "tightening its belt." We are doing the same with less. How else would you define that?
I totally agree that there is waste in government, but I also recognize that the government fulfills a specific role in society. The reason that the conservative agenda is so appealing on an EMOTIONAL level is that we can all point out certain instances where government fails. However, the conservative agenda is very weak on an INTELLECTUAL level because we all know there are certain things that only the government can do. |
Ron
Member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 84
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.92.162
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:35 pm: | |
Lilpup,
I'm hurt......you don't agree with me?!?  |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1615
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.13.235
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:41 pm: | |
quote:I guess if you can't use an adjacent, similiarly sized state, with a similar economic base and background, that happens to be doing something slightly more efficient than your own state, as an example, then well, that explains a lot of the problem here.
If Ohio was similarliarly sized and had a similar economic base, it would be a fair comparison.
But...
* They're less than half our size so they're not similarliarly sized;
* They rely more heavily on manufacturing than we do (but it's a more diversified manufacturing base) and less on agriculture and tourism so they don't have a similar economic base.
Come up with an apples to apples comparison - or better yet, start offering a couple of actual suggestions as to what we can cut.
quote:Your point that Michigan may need more natural resource employees has merit, but I noticed that you overlooked the stats on public welfare employees (whatever that means) and Michigan's 10,500 bureaucrats to Ohio's 2,813.
Thank you for acknowledging that my point about natural resources has merit.
I noticed the difference in employees in the public welfare sector as well. However, since I know very little about how that aspect of state government works, I didn't go into detail about it.
I also notice that Michigan has a lot fewer employees in the health and social insurance administration sectors. My suspicion is the Census Bureau didn't code them properly in their survey, because that is a huge difference in all three categories and they are fairly similar.
But, as I said earlier, the public welface sector isn't my area of expertise. If anyone knows more about it, feel free to correct me.
(Message edited by fnemecek on April 30, 2006) |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 981
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:46 pm: | |
Pointing out Mikeg's spin - he wrote "explain to me why you agree with Ron" when I never mentioned you or the content of your post... |
Ron
Member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 86
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.92.169
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:49 pm: | |
Don't worry, just making a little joke. I think that the debate is good, but I just wanted to lighten it up a little.
Ron |
Ron
Member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 87
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.92.163
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:56 pm: | |
Fnemecek,
While I am certainly not an expert in the public welfare system, it would make sense that we would need more employees doing this job if we have twice the population of Ohio, and our manufacturing base is not as diverse. Just throwing out possible reasons. |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 281
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.212.56.129
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:18 am: | |
Fnem-
Similarly sized, as in population. Similar in economics as in manufacturing-centered with heavy automotive. It is the closest in these respects to Michigan. Do you know of a state that is more similar? If you do, please inform me of which state that would be.
And I don't think that Michigan is so unique that its state government can't be measured and compared to others in the Midwest.
Michigan is laden with thousands of excess bureaucrats. Perhaps you are employed as one? That would explain your defense of the status quo.
And finally, please, please, please explain to me, if you can, the extra value or enhanced quality of life Michigan citizens are getting in exchange for employing 7,000+ extra state bureaucrats that Ohio citizens are not. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1616
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.13.235
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:19 am: | |
Ron,
One quick factual point: Michigan is more than twice the size of Ohio. However, our population is actually smaller. |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 282
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.212.56.129
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:25 am: | |
^^^^"One quick factual point: Michigan is more than twice the size of Ohio."
???????
I hate to break the news.
Ohio square miles: 40,953
Michigan square miles: 58,110 |
Ron
Member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 88
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 66.174.92.164
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:28 am: | |
Gotcha.....didn't bother to look before posting.
Kind........
Of..........
Tired....... |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1617
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.13.235
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:35 am: | |
quote:Michigan is laden with thousands of excess bureaucrats. Perhaps you are employed as one? That would explain your defense of the status quo.
Nope, I'm one of the job-creating small business owners that DeVos loves to talk about.
quote:And finally, please, please, please explain to me, if you can, the extra value or enhanced quality of life Michigan citizens are getting in exchange for employing 7,000+ extra state bureaucrats that Ohio citizens are not.
First, you're assuming that we have 7,000 extra people on the state payroll. I'm not convinced of that.
Second, I wouldn't be so quick to discount the significance of Michigan's size. If you have a job that requires a worker to visit a specific person in at a non-centralized location, said worker will spend a lot more time commuting in an area where the population is more spread out (say an inspector of one kind or another).
That, in turn, means that said worker won't be able visit as many locations per shift worked. This, in turn, means that there will have to be more workers employed to service the same sized population. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1618
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.13.235
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:39 am: | |
quote:I hate to break the news.
Ohio square miles: 40,953
Michigan square miles: 58,110
What's your source?
My figures are:
Michigan - 265,172 sq. km
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M ichigan
Ohio - 116,096 sq. km
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O hio |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 283
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.212.56.129
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:45 am: | |
^^^Then I guess following that line of thinking, state taxes in places like Montana, Texas, Utah, Colorado etc, should be much, much higher than in Michigan? Because they larger states in terms of land mass? Because their employess have to drive farther?
And by that logic Rhode Island should have the lowest taxes??
Huh???? |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 284
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.212.56.129
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:49 am: | |
My sources
http://www.michigan.gov
http://www.ohio.gov |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 285
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.212.56.129
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:58 am: | |
Also:
http://census.gov
All of the US Census bureau population/demographic calculations are base on:
Ohio square miles: 40,953
Michigan square miles: 58,110 |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1619
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.227.13.235
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 1:00 am: | |
The ratio of population to land mass is an important issue, but it's not the only issue. For example, if one state worked dilegently to address a certain issue and another state pretty much ignored it - that would also be a huge factor.
Texas, to use one of the states that you cited, has huge environmental issues - with one of the worst air quality records of any state in the union. Sorry - but I'll pay higher taxes if it means that I get to keep breathing. |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 286
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.212.56.129
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 1:02 am: | |
Correction:
http://census.gov
All of the US Census bureau population/demographic calculations are based on:
Ohio square miles: 40,948
Michigan square miles: 56,804 |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 983
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 1:04 am: | |
http://results.gpponline.org/S tates.aspx |
Futurecity
Member
Username: Futurecity
Post Number: 287
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 69.212.56.129
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 1:05 am: | |
"The ratio of population to land mass is an important issue"
Explain how this means higher or lower state taxes, which is what you said on your earlier post.
You can't. |
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