Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Belgians, Wikipedia, and Detroit Previous Next
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Masterblaster
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Username: Masterblaster

Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 155.79.138.253
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 1:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wikipedia.com's article on Detroit states:

"Metro Detroit has the largest concentration of Belgians outside of Belgium. The Detroit area is also home to a large Chaldean-Assyrian population and the country's largest concentration of Arab Americans whose retail businesses are the lifeblood of the Detroit neighborhoods,[13] including some 90% of the city's "party stores" (selling lottery tickets, hard liquor, and snack foods). The southwest side of the city contains a small Chicano community in the area lately renamed "Mexicantown." Up until the 1980s, there was a growing gay presence in the Palmer Park area in the north of the city that migrated to the cities of Ferndale and Royal Oak after the community collapsed.[14]"

CAN ANYONE ATTEST TO THEIR BEING A NOTICEABLE NUMBER OF BELGIANS THAT LIVE AROUND METRO DETROIT??????

DID YOU READ THAT "CHALDEANS ARE THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE DETROIT NEIGHBORHOODS"? THAT IS SAD, because they don't even live in (the city of) Detroit!!!
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2332
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 12.75.20.196
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 1:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't comment on the Belgians but the wiki didn't say Chaldeans are the lifeblood of the neighborhoods, it said that their businesses are the lifeblood. Like it or not, they do dominate neighborhood retail in the city.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7275
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 1:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Define retail.
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Jfre66_77
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Username: Jfre66_77

Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 12.15.1.161
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 1:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know any (Belgians) personally, but their waffles are excellent.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 3186
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.218.152.64
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The Belgian American settlement in Detroit took place mainly between 1880 and 1910. Most of these new arrivals were skilled Flemish crafts people. Detroit's early industrial and manufacturing growth was fueled in great part by their skills in the building trades and transportation. According to Jozef Kadijk, whose 1963 lecture at Loyola University in Chicago appears in Belgians in the United States, approximately 10,000 residents of Detroit at that time were born in Belgium. Taking their descendants into account is said to increase that figure to 50,000.




http://www.everyculture.com/mu lti/A-Br/Belgian-Americans.htm l

Seems to be a bit of a Belgian - decendant enclave in the Fraser area.

(Message edited by JamS on April 28, 2006)
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2333
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 12.75.20.196
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Define retail.


For purposes of this discussion, party stores, gas stations and cell phone stores.
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Gmich99
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Username: Gmich99

Post Number: 91
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 24.208.243.207
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belgian wheat beers and mussels are to die for
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J_stone
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Username: J_stone

Post Number: 299
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 63.77.247.130
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like their beer.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 33
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 63.85.13.248
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Master, Chaldeans are found in the Seven Mile/John R Neighborhood as well as the Warrendale neighborhood. They must be living in other parts of the city as well. Your assumption is borderline racist. That would be like denying that there are black people in the suburbs because Detroit is mostly black.

Don't be divisive, we have enough of the experts and the racists playing that game.
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Kova
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Username: Kova

Post Number: 233
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.212.57.86
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitplanner his assumptions aren't borderline racist at all, gime a break!

Chaldeans by and large don't live in the city, relative to their muslim counterparts. He obviusly did not know about Seven Mile John R, and neither would anyone else if that had not been to the area as it is quite small.

(Message edited by KOVA on April 28, 2006)
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 459
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Master's comments are more directed to the Wiki entry's misinformation in general (and isn't that an issue when usng on-line information?)- but the lucky thing is that misinformation can be written over in the Wiki.

Once again, accusations of racism rear their ugly heads where racism was never intended.
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Mc5rules
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Username: Mc5rules

Post Number: 168
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 148.61.97.101
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My great-grandma migrated from Ghent, Belgium to Detroit on the eve of WWI, for what it's worth...
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3729
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit area Belgians, yr. 2000, 39,674. Most are Flemings (Flemish). First settlement was in 1833. Eastsiders and Eastern suburbs.

Our Lady of Sorrows Church, 1884. St. John Berchmans Church, 1923. Both on eastside of Detroit.

They like racing pigeons in backyard coops.

St. Philomena Church, Mack and Marseilles.

Cadieux Cafe, Cadieux and Mack Ave. This is one of the remaining truly Belgian saloons left in Detroit.

Amazing as it may sound, jjaba never ever heard of them growing up on the Westside in the 1940s, 1950s. Add Belgian chocolate to your list.

jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor.
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 644
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 70.229.112.218
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have belgian ancestry. I dont know if that counts
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3732
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 3:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, 39,675 if we include Steelworker. Next time, say "Belgian" instead of pasty whiteguy. You'll get a chance in 2010.

jjaba.
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Ghetto_butterfly
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Username: Ghetto_butterfly

Post Number: 598
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 12.159.48.254
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 3:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm Belgian, born and raised there until I moved to the US 13 years ago. Although I have met many people with Belgian ancestry here in the Detroit area, my son and me are the only "real" Belgians I know. And yes, our beers are the best with the most varieties, so is the chocolate and the french fries. And I have never played featherball in my life, neither there nor here, so it must be a flemish thing.
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Tarkus
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Username: Tarkus

Post Number: 12
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 69.222.98.86
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm Belgian. Belgians generally lived on the Eastside from St. Jean to Moross. At one time Mack ave. had 10 belgian butcher and pastery shops. The only one left is Verdonckts at Mack and Wayburn. Although it is now owned by Albanians. St. Clare has a lot of Belgians still there. St. Matthews. Verheyden Funeral home is Belgian. Vergotes poultry on Harper and Whittier started out Belgian selling live chickens slaughtered in front of you. And the Cadieux Cafe of course. There were also several butcher shops on Harper as well. Blanckes (who own Sinbads) and Embos market. Belgian sausage can still be purchased at Village market on Mack in GPW.
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Sharmaal
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Username: Sharmaal

Post Number: 788
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 136.1.1.101
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"so it must be a flemish thing."

Please Butterfly, this is the sort of divisiveness that is tearing our region apart.
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Gmich99
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Username: Gmich99

Post Number: 92
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 24.208.243.207
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My grandfather married a woman from Belgium. Her family moved to the Detroit-area after World War II.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1091
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.40.57
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The owner of Antoon's Bicycle Shop up by Whatever Mile Rd is from Belgium.

The Belg/Flegms(?) migrated up to the Roseville/Fraser area from the Eastside, local parish at 13 and Kelly Rd, Fr. Tallieu (sp?) Retirement Home located there, at least a few years ago there was still a Belgian Band that rehearsed there (free beer at rehearsals!).
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Kathleen
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Username: Kathleen

Post Number: 1299
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 140.244.107.151
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't forget Verdonckt's Belgian Bakery on Mack Ave. near Alter Rd.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2028
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.147.132
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Flemish and Walloons (French speaking) Belgians have always been at odds with each other. When a Walloon "Theiron" married a Flemish "Guns" (remember Guns Ford Dealership on Jefferson?) in the 1940's, it was considered scandalous.

The nationality issue in Belgium explains why in 1830 (when Belgium became a country) they asked Prince Leopold of the German duchy of Saxe-Coburg to become their first king.

I grew up on the far east side in the 60's and 70's, and as a kid saw my fair share of pigeon coops in the back yards of the Belgian neighbors throughout the region. I didn't care too much for pigeons, and neither did my 1967 Ford Galaxy 500. :-)

(Message edited by Gistok on April 28, 2006)
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Udmphikapbob
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Username: Udmphikapbob

Post Number: 144
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 206.81.45.34
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Support Detroit - buy Belgian beers at Chaldean-owned party stores!
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3735
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 5:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, you made my day. jjaba drove a 1957 Ford Custom, two-tone. Didn't like pigeons either.
Like he said, the Westside was full of Euro-americans and middle easterners, but we never ever heard about Belgians.

Must be a deep Eastside thang. Thanks, this is very instructive.

jjaba, Tells it like it tis.
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Speddaddy4
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Username: Speddaddy4

Post Number: 37
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 141.217.84.83
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 5:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am Belgian! My great grandparents moved here around 1919 from Belgian and lived on the East side until they bought a far in Hale, Michigan. I'm proud to be Flemish! My grandmother still speaks that dialect.
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 764
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.74.10.30
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 5:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

how did Palmer Park community collapse in the 80's??

...that entry seems a bit off
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Historyguy
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Username: Historyguy

Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 1:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe Dave DeBusschere (of the Pistons, Tigers and New York Knicks) was of Belgian descent and attended Austin High (an eastside Catholic school) in the late 1950s. He attended college at the University of Detroit.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3749
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 2:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Historyguy, welcome to the Forum.
Post 12 was a good one. Get in, get out.
Tell it like it tis.

jjaba, Westsider.
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Umstucoach
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Username: Umstucoach

Post Number: 17
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 12:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are correct Historyguy.
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Jelk
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Username: Jelk

Post Number: 3731
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 141.217.119.145
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 12:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DeBusschere did indeed go to Austin, UofD, etc. When he played for the Pistons in 1965 a pretty smart man named him the youngest head coach in American pro sports history. Actually DeBusschere was said smart man's second choice, but the politics of sport of the day would let him hire Earl Lloyd in 1965.
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Erikd
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Username: Erikd

Post Number: 601
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.214.106
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 6:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My grandmother and great-grandparents left Belgium for eastside Detroit after WW1. From what I have been told, my great-grandfather worked as a cooper for Strohs.
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Historyguy
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Username: Historyguy

Post Number: 13
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Jjaba for your very kind words. I've enjoyed and learned from your posts. I grew up on the West Side as well, Seven Mile and Meyers. I caught the tail end of stores and restaurants such as Star Bakery, the Royal Theater and Darby's.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3758
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:34 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome to Forum, Historyguy.

Your Royal Theater was designed by Charles N. Agree who did the Vanity Ballroom on E. Jefferson and many other incredible Detroit venues.

Built: 1940, 2,496 seats. Construction: $247,000.
Had Air conditioning from day one.

Closed, 1969. Was part of Wisper and Wetsman circuit.

Building and land sold to Grace Hospital.

jjaba, sorry to threadjack for the newbie. Now back to Belgians.
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7051
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Username: 7051

Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 70.227.216.209
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:34 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I own a building on Harper next to Elam's Bar. I've been told by many in the area that it was a Sec. of State office for many years and that it also had a small butcher's shop in the rear. What was the name of the butcher or the butcher shop and what years did the building house the Sec. of State and the butcher's shop? It was a video store for about ten years prior to us converting it to a laundromat in 2002.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2033
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.3.183
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:53 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well well well.... I assume you are talking about the retail block between Bluehill and Woodhall (and where Morang ends)....

I grew up on Marseilles in the 1960's, and as a 10 year old often went past the stores on my way to the Vogue Theatre (Bishop & Harper) and Earl's Bike Shop (Audobon & Harper).

That would be ELMO's GROCERY & MEAT SHOP. I've known it as that in the 1960's. I believe sometime in the 70's it was a Secretary of State, (possibly still with the butcher shop in the back) and at some point in the late 80's it became a video store.

Next door to that building was a Barber Shop, and the building next to that was known as "THE MILK DEPOT" where my parents used to buy their bread and dairy items. At the opposite end of the block was a Flemings Drug Store.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2454
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 1:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Listed in a 1967 Yellow Pages, and a 1961 White Pages:

Embo's Market
Meat - Groceries - Beer - Wine - Delivery
17440 Harper
TU1-5301

Now back in 1940, Embo was closer to town, at 10707 Harper. The 17400 block of Harper back then was the Harper Airport, a grass strip at the northwest corner of Harper and Morang. 17400 Harper was Wayne County Comfort Station #6, and 17401 Harper was the Peter Sabbe Beer Garden, two things I'm always on the lookout for when I'm looking for a place to land; a bar and a bathroom.

The '61 phone book shows the SoS at 16350 Harper and no listing in the '67 phone book.

Haper & Morang 1940's?



(Message edited by MikeM on May 01, 2006)
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7051
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Username: 7051

Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 70.227.216.209
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 10:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great picture. Do you have any more photos of this street (specifically my building - 17440 Harper?
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3765
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 11:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MikeM, how do you lay down a plane on that triangle?

Great photo. Those buses remind jjaba of the Northlawn line clear on the other side of town.

jjaba, Westsider.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2457
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 11:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That photo is from the WSU archives. I'm sure it's looking down Chester to the right and Harper to the left. I have no idea why they photographed that intersection, other than that it was (and is) a tricky intersection. Before the freeway went through, Harper, Evanston, and Morang all converged there. You can see where Harper crossed over to Evanston at Chester/Morang. Harper used to be "Mt Clemens Drive" from there northward until the 1930s:

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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1107
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.70
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 11:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looking at this web site, it shows four Belgian organizations around Detroit, and one in Windsor.

http://www.viw.be/buitenland_n oord.html

{I have to dig out my old bright yellow, Belgian-American Band t-shirt.}
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1108
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.70
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 11:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a slightly later map from the 30s still showing Harper turning into Mt. Clemens, only change is to the DSR routing.



(cue the Dueling Banjos music) :-)
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2460
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 12:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speaking of associations:

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/23585/30447.html

Looking at my map (1933), I see the DSR Harper line ended at Morang, which coincidently was the location of one of the county's "comfort stations". Some of the comfort stations built back in the '20s or '30s are quite nice, architecturally. I haven't noticed if the building is still there or not. Gistok, do you remember any building in that block that looks like it could have once been a public bathroom?
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Tarkus
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Username: Tarkus

Post Number: 23
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 68.43.117.118
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 9:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Belgian - American Club now meets at Barrister gardens in SCS. Third Tuesday of every month at 7pm, for those who are interested.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2093
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.81.207
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 7:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Mikem and Hornwrecker, thanks for the great pic and maps. It is so cool to see how the area looked before the arrival of I-94.

As someone who has lived there since 1960 (well my mother still lives there), I had trouble trying to get my bearings straight in that picture. But I think I understand the picture versus the map.... Where the 2 forks in the road are... the road on the left goes thru what today is the Kensington Station Post Office at Harper & Morang, and just behind the 2nd bus on that road is where I-94 goes thru today.

At first I thought that this spot is where Chester branches off (to the right) from Harper. But this pic is about 1/2 block sooner. That house in the middle no longer exists. It is where Harper is a narrow boulevard today, and a block further eastbound Harper crosses over from the other side of the freeway. Just behind that house in the middle of the pic is where Chester branches off to the right, but back then Chester was known as Harper for the short stretch until just past Moross.

In my 20's I used to take the "CADILLAC EXPRESS" bus (no idea why it was called that) which went from Moross & Chester westbound to where Chester merges with Harper (the picture), continues down Harper as a local bus, but once it hit Gratiot, it turned onto Gratiot towards downtown. On Gratiot is was an Express bus, so no stops along the way to downtown.

Given the historical context of this discussion, it answers a question I always had about why the bus went down Chester for that short stretch, and not Harper. Well way back then... Chester WAS Harper!

Thanks all!

(Message edited by Gistok on May 12, 2006)
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Tarkus
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Username: Tarkus

Post Number: 24
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 68.43.117.118
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 8:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

7051... The Sec of State was all Embos Market at one time. The SoS bought out the front 3/4's of the store in the late 70's and let Al Embo keep a narrow shop in the rear. I used to work for Al Embo doing deliveries.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1150
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.185
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 10:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, the Cadillac in the name probably refers to the old bus station in Cadillac Square where the route ended, and what a magnificent transportation terminal it was. (The Seven Mile bus stop was at Chester, making a longer walk to school, you'd think that they would have also had a stop at Harper.)
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2094
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.3.184
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 12:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mikem, I forgot to reply to your question.... no there is no building in that block that looks anything but like a commercial building. Tomorrow when I go visit my mother, I will take a slow drive down Harper and check it out.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 3276
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.72.148.74
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Cadillac route refers to Cadillac Ave, which at one time was the eastern border of Detroit. (near Water Works Park). Like many bus route names it is a holdover from the streetcar lines.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2096
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.129.33
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 1:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jams, I kinda thought that Cadillac the street may have been the reason. Isn't it named Cadillac Blvd.? I don't ever remember seeing a boulevard anywhere along Cadillac, again maybe in the early days when it was an outer "ring" type road it may have been a boulevard at one time.

Yeah it was kinda funny how a bus line that traveled only on Chester-Harper-Gratiot had "CADILLAC EXPRESS" on the front of the bus. The only spot it touched Cadillac Blvd. was where the old YMCA on Harper/Cadillac (1 block east of Gratiot) is located (where Cadillac Blvd. ended).
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3809
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 2:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Hamilton bus runs on W. Seven Mile Road.

The Dexter traverses W. Grand Blvd. and Cass Avenue.

You name a bus for a portion of the ride.

We know for certain the the Cadillac bus had nothing to do with the car, although early GM buses may have optioned for Cadillac engines.

Many cities go by numbers and names, which gives riders two clues where the hell it will take them.
Plus, you usually get a destination like "Through, Local, Express, To City, Terminal, Depot, Station, Westbound, Car Barn, Garage, Log Cabin, Downtown, City Limits, 8 Mile, Telegraph, Lahser, County line, Rouge Plant, Sanitarium, Assylum, Stadium, Bridge, Town Center, Mall, Terminal tower, Capitol Park, Howard, Airport, Shaker, Uptown, Victoria Station, Loop."

jjaba, bus historian/rider.
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Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 765
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 5:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oh, there's bastone's in royal oak...belgian cuisine, and a very popular restaurant.
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 500
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.222.54.70
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 7:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They are here...among us.

Sure you can pretend that they are French ... or Dutch with a funny accent.... but we all know... they are Belgian and they are everywhere!
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Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2499
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 9:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I gotta go with Hornwrecker on the Cadillac Express referring to the Cadillac Square bus station, similar to Capitol Park. You can see it in the middle of the street in the background of this picture.
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2098
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.72.75
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mikem and Hornwrecker, I don't disagree with you (cuz I don't know the answer). But didn't a LOT of bus routes end at that spot? Then why would that one particular route be given that name over all other routes?
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Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2500
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I'd say it was the only bus running on Harper that was going to Cadillac Sq, so it was the Cadillac Express. It wouldn't be confused with the Cadillac Express running on Gratiot or Van Dyke, etc.

Also, I drove by that intersection a few days ago, and the comfort station would have been where the P.O. is now, IIRC.
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Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3812
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 12:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cadillac Express refers to Cadillac Blvd., guaranteed. Somewhere along the route, it turns into an express. Cadillac Square has nothing to do with it.

jjaba, old bus rider.
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Jams
Member
Username: Jams

Post Number: 3278
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.249.240.180
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 4:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As I said earlier several bus routes have retained the name of the streetcar line that preceded the bus route. Cadillac Blvd, you are correct, was the terminus of that line outbound when it was still the borderline of Detroit,

Cadillac Square was or recently had been at that time the Farmers' Market, which moved to the current Eastern Market site.

It would be an interesting study to compare the current bus routes to the old streetcar lines of various eras. It may explain some of the routing of the current system that seem a bit convoluted.
Overlay that with the OCF research and we may find some interesting things about the development of Detroit transit and the growth of the City. For example, a new large factory or factory area might have been established. Would a route be diverted to service that factory or area or would a new route be established? When the factory or area were no longer a factor due to closures, the bus line still follows the same route due to inertia rather than need.

- never could understand why it was called the Baker line, although the current Bagley Ave. (Street) was renamed from Baker in honour of that tobacconist. Add in the freeways and closure of streets for projects, comparing older maps to the current one, sometimes is mindboggling, Let's see, East Fort Street runs from Randoph to Beaubien and than again for a half block to Orleans??????
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Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3816
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 5:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just like our cultural legacies, our transportation legacies are also extant.

Cities are developed around transportation options. In Detroit's case, they went for auto routes. Other cites, new and old, have chosen more public transit options.

Chicago just put in a pink line, reclaiming old existing tracks. Portland, Oregon just ordered $85 million worth of new rail cars from Seimens for a fourth light rail line. They've also just extended their new streetcar line, running stock is Skodas from Czech Republic.

Detroit extends its auto paths and not much more.

jjaba.
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Tarkus
Member
Username: Tarkus

Post Number: 26
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 68.43.117.118
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 6:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No disrespect but isn't this supposed to be about the Belgians in the area? Not a discussion of bus routes.
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Jams
Member
Username: Jams

Post Number: 3282
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.249.44.157
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 9:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome to the forum!

One tangent leads to another. :-)
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1153
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.40.80
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 10:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looking at my 30s map, the Cadillac Blvd. DSR route ran down from Harper to Mack, then jogs over to Pennsylvania to Jefferson. It isn't clear where it went to from either end.
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Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 769
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 69.14.30.175
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 10:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i guess the moral of this thread is that the belgians were displaced by confusing changes in road names, bizarre intersections, and complicated bus routes.
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Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3819
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 2:47 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tarkus, welcome to the Forum, you are exactly right. Sadly, it's a typical eastside thing to threadjack. They are easily confused over there.

jjaba, Westsider.
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2105
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.90.174
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 3:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tarkus, I think we've exhausted the Belgian angle... Walloon's.... pigeons.... Flem's..... pigeon coups..... steamed mussels.... pigeon pie... feather bowling... pigeon poop.....

And Thecarl, you are correct. We make it confusing to keep away all those pesky westsiders... They are only used to the street grid plan and Mile Roads... the moment they get to the east side and encounter a road that isn't right angle to another road, they get "dazed and confused" and scurry back to the west side! :-)

(Message edited by Gistok on May 15, 2006)
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Jams
Member
Username: Jams

Post Number: 3297
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.79.119.13
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 3:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wonderful post, Gistok. I owe you a Belgian Beer.
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2107
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.90.174
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 4:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jams! We'll give Jjaba some Belgian Waffles, since that other Belgian carnival delicacy "pigeon on a stick" (their version of "city chicken") is probably not kosher..... :-)
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Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3833
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 7:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What the hell is "city chicken", pigeon, raccoon, beaver, muscrat, or Trumbull Ave. Pheasant with a creamsauce? Kosher schmosher, what am I, chopped liver?

jjaba.
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Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3834
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 7:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba would prefer Belgian Chocolates or Antwerp diamonds. Merci.

jjaba.
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Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2508
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 10:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For Tarkus:

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/11557/38773.html
https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/23585/30447.html
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Tarkus
Member
Username: Tarkus

Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 68.43.117.118
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 11:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mikem... Thanks for the threads. I grew up on Devonshire and Frankfort. My grandparents grew up on Philip and Charlevoix where it was wall to wall Belgians until the early 70's. I remember growing up hearing nothing but Flemish at my grandparents and at the Cadieux Cafe. Remember "Being Belgian is Beautiful"(a bumper sticker the Cadieux Cafe used to sell.)
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Kathleen
Member
Username: Kathleen

Post Number: 1317
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.122.57
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 8:23 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belgian paper tries to adapt to keep printing

The Gazette van Detroit began publishing in 1914, when Flemish-speaking immigrants made Detroit home to more Belgians than any other city in the nation.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060517/NEW S05/605170396/1007
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Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 3838
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 67.160.138.107
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 7:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Kethleen. jjaba continues to learn about Detroit from you, et. al.

This thread is one of the most interesting to jjaba, being a Westsider with no knowledge about Belgians.

jjaba, Westside Yeshiva Bukkor.
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Hornwrecker
Member
Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1177
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.210
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jjaba, to get to Belgiantown, I'll give you directions from a major landmark, that any Westsider should even be able to follow:

From the State Fair grounds, take State Fair east, keep going straight on E. Outer Dr. Keep going straight on Conner, until you get to E. Outer Dr just before Gratiot. Turn left on E. Outer Dr, then turn left when you get to E Outer Dr, when you get to Chandler Park Dr. keep going straight. Turn right onto Cadieux, and you are there.

(I think I got that right, finally)

(Message edited by Hornwrecker on May 17, 2006)
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2118
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.9.142
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well done Jjaba, and there are about 4 or 5 bends in the road to E. Outer Drive after you turn left from Conner.

Funny thing Outer Drive.... it's one of the few things that both the east side and west side have in common!
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Vulke99
Member
Username: Vulke99

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 207.72.2.206
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 4:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

we are flemish/belgian. my grandfather came here under an assumed name when he was 3 in 1914. his family came over the year before with another family's boy. they switched the kids because grandpa was sick and he wouldn't have been able to get through ellis island. they were carpenter's but turned to farming when they arrived in detroit. they farmed in utica (the part that is now sterling heights).
talk about illegal immigration! grandpa didn't become a legal citizen until the early '80s.

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