  Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 488 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.215.30.34 |
The state of Michigan is gathering petitions from residents who are sick and tired of having gasoline prices burn a hole in their pockets. http://www.michigan.gov/som/0, 1607,7-192--141415--,00.html | ||
Gildas Member Username: Gildas Post Number: 614 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 147.240.236.9 |
Will the governor reduce the state tax? | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 807 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 69.208.123.95 |
Where on the petition is the motion to rid Michigan taxpayers of the dreaded 19 cent per gallon State gas tax? And why does this petition not include the fact that the average profit per gallon by the major oil companies is a mere 9 cents? There is no free lunch Michigan. Wake up. | ||
Machoken Member Username: Machoken Post Number: 1221 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 207.145.38.104 |
Sheesh, and I was thinking maybe they should increase the state gas tax! Why are gas prices so high in Europe? Because of the high gas taxes. Seems to me that gas tax is a good thing. An increase in the state gas tax could be put toward mass transit, which people will be more likely to use if they can't afford gas. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 204.24.64.25 |
I was thinking the same thing Mac. I hope the gas tax doesn't get reduced. | ||
Funkycarrie Member Username: Funkycarrie Post Number: 201 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 69.208.117.53 |
when are people going to realize that this is not a solution?? Gas prices are going to continue to rise; we have to change our lifestyles and find alternative fuels! | ||
Mcnamara Member Username: Mcnamara Post Number: 46 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 204.22.230.119 |
the gas tax is a federal mandate to the states, without it all of the already "pot holed" roads would be even worse. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8397 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.56.144 |
You folks whine about your gas prices yet we have the second largest oil reserves it the world and we pay more than you. Put's things in perspective doesn't it? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 992 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.129.146.186 |
Mrjoshua I'd question that .09 per gallon profit to the majors - that's the take for the street level dealers | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 808 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 69.208.123.95 |
Lilpup, It's just basic math: http://www.conocophillips.com/ newsroom/other_resources/energ yanswers/oil_profits.htm Gas stations earn an average of 1.5 to 3 cents per gallon in profit. Most of their profits come from snacks, beverages, etc. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8398 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.56.144 |
Hmmm..is that why Imperial Oil's profits rose 50% in the first quarter ($591 million)? This whole .9 per gallon or 2% profit is pure BS. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 405 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 141.216.1.4 |
Goat-- Just because a gas station is Esso-branded (Imperial Oil) doesn't mean that Imperial owns the station. Most of the profits indeed would not go to the station owner in that case. With company-owned stations it's obviously a different story. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8399 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.56.144 |
I agree, but what I was stating was that oil companies are making record profits while we all pay the price. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 682 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
I'll sign the petition to get that fat bastard from Exxon put in jail. But our prices are up and that's it. Get used to it boys and girls, your free market is calling you. Ain't capitalism swell! | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2466 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
http://www.wwj.com/episode_dow nload.php?contentType=36&conte ntId=58348 | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 249 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.43.107.72 |
WE ARE GETTING RIPPED OFF AND THE PIGGIES IN POWER DON'T CARE!!!!! | ||
Czar Member Username: Czar Post Number: 3056 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 129.137.199.138 |
Last I checked, cheap gas was not a constitutional right. You want prices to go down? Drive less and buy more fuel efficient vehicles. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1453 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Who has an entitlement mentality now, Mrjoshua? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 993 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.129.146.186 |
Having managed a few stations in the past I can tell you that a street dealer's take is anywhere from .06 - .12 cents per gallon depending on brand and sales mix. Excluding Marathon/Speedway whose situation I don't know, I know that there are almost no stations left in metro Detroit owned and managed by big oil. The stations have been sold to jobbers who in turn either collect exorbitant rents from dealers or force the dealers to buy outright. More than anyone the dealers get crushed when prices rise. The stations make less $$ because not only to sales volumes drop, but there are a lot more drive-offs. At only 9 to 12 cents profit per gallon a $25 - $40 drive-off is huge. At this rate a lot of smaller stations will go under, which the big jobbers and oil companies probably won't mind as that just further constricts the market, giving them more control without the hassle and expense of owning the stations. I can't begin to tell you how much I hope Ford successfully kicks forward ethanol/flex fuel production and use. | ||
Xd_brklyn Member Username: Xd_brklyn Post Number: 140 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.88.89.94 |
Mass transit-- get with it! My total gas expediture this year: about $76 (just picked up a family car from the D last weekend.) Thank you Metro-North and even the poor-weekend-service NY Subway. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8400 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.56.144 |
Czar, that's ridiculous. If they made cars that had the efficiency to travel 200 m/gallon do you think gas prices would stay the same or increase significantly? I surmise it would be the latter. It is all relative as long as the oil companies make mega profits. $3.00 today and highly fuel efficient cars in the future = $20.00. | ||
Czar Member Username: Czar Post Number: 3057 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 129.137.199.138 |
Goat, may I acquaint you with the laws of supply and demand? | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 233 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 69.212.214.147 |
Goat: We have the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world? Think again. Saudi is first and Iran is second (although the calculation of reserves worldwide is suspect.) The U.S.'s reserves don't rank anywhere near the top, when one considers "conventional" oil, the kind that's pumped out of the ground, and upon which "reserves" are calculated. If we consider the oil found in oil shale, we probably do have the most oil in the world. Oil shale is what we should be exploiting. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 33 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 68.40.195.233 |
i want prices to go up. if gas costs $5 a gallon, maybe people around these parts will finally wake up and realize that cars are a luxury... bring on the mass transit. yee-haw. .andy. | ||
Czar Member Username: Czar Post Number: 3058 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 129.137.199.138 |
Can we start a petition for the high cost of iPods? What about beer? Cigarettes? | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2468 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.54.94.33 |
Goat is in Canada; I believe he's referring to the tar sands of Alberta and I think he's correct. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 488 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.222.54.70 |
"I agree, but what I was stating was that oil companies are making record profits while we all pay the price." ______________________________ ___________________ The State of Michigan is making record profits...3 times those of the oil companies. If you think the oil company profits are outrageous, and they are actually providing a product....the State's profits are thievery. If you want lower gas prices, start with the thieves in Lansing who are ripping off the public, not the private oil companies that make up a large percentage of the portfolios of retirement funds of this state's work force. That's the short term fix. The longer term fix is of course to start sucking oil out of that utopian wasteland called Anwar that a few elitists on the US Coasts have prevented and have hurt the economic opportunities for the residents of Alaska. Of course, there is always an element on this forum who have never seen a tax that they don't love...and will try to "protect" the Alaskans from themselves.... stupid is as stupid does. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 995 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.129.146.186 |
The way I'd like to see what you call the state's thievery stopped is through the implementation and use of mass transit and alternative fuels, not potentially giving more wildlife oil baths. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 341 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Goat is in Canada and would be referring to Canada's well publicized secret: the tar sands in Alberta. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T ar_sands | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 810 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 69.208.123.95 |
Here is a good lesson in economics for our Socialist friends: USATODAY.com Several factors converge for higher gas costs Tuesday April 11, 10:49 pm ET http://biz.yahoo.com/usat/0604 11/13505247.html "Production hasn't kept up. Currently, the world produces about 86 million barrels of oil a day. Sounds like a lot, but it's not, because the world consumes about 85 million barrels a day. 'For all intents and purposes, supply and demand are balanced out,' says Charles Swanson, industry practice leader at Ernst & Young's Houston-based energy center." | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 234 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 69.212.214.147 |
As of 12:38 P.M. today the price of oil on NYMEX was down $1.61 per barrel. Some of us are not happy. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 683 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
See! It's okay and how it should be, it's the market, Forrest. Now stop your bitching, drive your SUV dry, fill it up and drive again! Whoo Hoooooooo! Fuck that wasteland, why should I care if our children ever see a wild animal! Fuck them! Me! Me! Me! Me! I'm a republican now! I see the light. | ||
Machoken Member Username: Machoken Post Number: 1222 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 207.145.38.104 |
"You you you,that's all you care about!" | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1456 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Yes, that's the problem, mrjoshua. They're just not producing enough oil these days. Whatever happened to your free market ideology? | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 196 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.255.167.18 |
$5 Bring it!!! | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2345 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.18.236 |
1. A petition is a sorry excuse for either real action or real honesty on the Governor's part. Either do something tangible (all she can do is reduce the state tax, or not) or screw up the courage to tell Michiganders that there ain't a thing the state or the feds can really do. Supply and demand (thank you Czar). 2. Goat, take Econ 101 before you unleash your self on public school students. 3. Oldredfordette, I've come to realize that you have a very high need to vent your anger through using harsh words, but don't you think calling everyone you hate "fat" is a bit over the line? What would a real liberal think of that? Like Czar said, drive less or get a higher MPG vehicle (or buy XOM stock or NYMEX futures and smile when gas prices go up). | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2346 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.18.236 |
4. Lilpup, I think you're talking about gross margin on gas being 6¢ to 12¢. Once you allocate overhead costs you're down to a lot less than that. The C-store and lottery tickets really seem to carry the store, the gas just gets people in and covers some overhead. | ||
Machoken Member Username: Machoken Post Number: 1223 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 207.145.38.104 |
Kind of makes you wonder why pretty much every gas station has card readers at the pump. I can't remember the last time I actually stepped foot in a gas station. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2347 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.18.236 |
At lot of people won't go to a gas station unless they have a card reader in the pump, me included, so gas stations feel compelled to have them. It does work against them for C-store sales. I've heard of devices that gas stations can install on the islands that are like a mini-bar, you can buy pop and stuff without going inside. Other stations have tubes like at the bank drive-thru or conveyors like at White Castle through which they can deliver merchandise to the customer without the customer going inside. You order your stuff while you fill up. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 685 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
Lee Raymond, soon to be former CEO of Exxon, has been called "Fat Bastard" with regularity lately, because he looks like Fat Bastard from Austin Powers. Track, maybe if we are successful with that petition to lower prices/taxes , you can buy a sense of humor.  | ||
Funkycarrie Member Username: Funkycarrie Post Number: 203 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 69.208.117.53 |
I suggest a lot of you read Crossing the Rubicon by Michael C Ruppert | ||
Thewack Member Username: Thewack Post Number: 199 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.43.105.150 |
Peak Oil is here: www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net A little extreme, but it appears we have already hit the peak. | ||
Funkycarrie Member Username: Funkycarrie Post Number: 205 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 69.208.117.53 |
its hard to say if we've hit the peak yet, some scientists say we have, some say it is still another 5-10 years off. Regardless we need to start putting the effort into alternatives and we need to start changing our lifestyles to ones less dependent on oil... The hard part is getting everyone else to realize the seriousness of the issue. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 235 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 69.212.214.147 |
Oil reserves: 1. Saudi 262.7 billion bbls (est.'05) 2. Canada 178.9 b/bbls (est. '04) 3. Iran 133.3 b/bbls (est. '05) 4. Iraq 112.5 b/bbls (est. '05) 5. UAE 97.8 b/bbls (est. '05) 15. U.S. 22.4 b/bbls (est. '02) From "World Factbook" published by the CIA based on info from U.S. Dept of energy and other sources. We're in deep s____ folks. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 599 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
What are you talking about? We got Canada, the 51st state. | ||
Funkycarrie Member Username: Funkycarrie Post Number: 206 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 69.208.117.53 |
any new oil source found worldwide is only going to add 10-20 years onto the peak, its only a temporary solution... Its time for alternatives, unfortunately most people could give two shits about the pending issue and they care more about driving their Escalade. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 686 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
*oh and Track? I'm not a liberal* | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8402 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.56.144 |
Track75, where was I wrong? Are you telling me that if we made cars more efficient the price of gas would NOT go up? Of course it would! The oil companies wouldn't make much profit (therefore raise prices or push the price of oil up on the NYSE) and the gov't would still need to raise taxes to compensate for "other" projects like they do now. Let's not forget infrastructure costs which are ballooning across N.A. Yes supply and demand play a role to a degree. But you do honestly think the price for gas would drop due to less use? Do you really thinkg the gov'ts would allow these oil companies to fall? I highly doubt it. Since there is not going to be any alternative fuels anytime soon, I would imagine they would still need to make money and oil is the only way they can (since they {oil companies} are not really looking for alternative energy anyway). If I'm wrong tell me where. Cigs and liquor are luxuries not must haves as gas is. Remember tyhe cost of gas trickles down to all of our purchases whether it's food or purchased products. The purchaser will in the end, eat the cost. (Message edited by GOAT on May 03, 2006) | ||
Billybbrew Member Username: Billybbrew Post Number: 162 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Maybe I'm seeing things from a different perspective here...I'm not thrilled with the high cost of gas myself, but I try to keep the following in mind...Retailers do make very little profit on gasoline sales, (about 3 cents a gallon when I worked in the industry). As far as the $.09 gas tax...The oil companies aren't maintaining our infrastructure, the State, County and City are. (to the best of their ability, or so I like to think) As far as supply and demand...I would guess it would be like the City of Detroit...Less people, less taxes, same infrastructure to maintain equals budget woes. I would think less gas usage would lead to higher gas prices to maintain the research and intrastructure needed to refine the gas...Also, the oil companies are in business to make money, their bottom line is profit for stockholders/investors. Could be wrong, but that's my take on it... | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2348 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.20.115 |
Oldredfordette, I'll buy us both one with my oil company stock profits, 'kay? Looks like you need one too based on your recent comments on the swimmer thread: "Sometimes the ugliness of this forum makes me so sick at heart. Damn." and... "I agree, D_stylin. Lowell, please take this down. This marks a new low, even for these people. I've read some evil racist shit on this forum, but I'm really really offended." And sorry for assuming you identified with liberal ideology. My apologies to any liberals I offended by lumping you in with them. I'm guessing Wobblie, or one of their cousins? | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.209.171.255 |
I think we should be petitioning to raise the gas tax significantly. $3 a gallon doesn't seem to be swaying anyone in favour of walking, biking, mass transit, or alternative fuels, so how 'bout $6? We could use all that extra revenue to, oh, fund mass transit or something. But that would be communism, right? | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 434 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 24.192.148.150 |
Unfortunately alot of politicians are taking the wrong stance on this issue (actually they don't understand business or economics)... Though I DO agree we should not have 5 billion in tax breaks for oil companies.. Alot of people have said it.. But Forcing caps on profits is a BAD IDEA.. for those who will agrue this point.. Go to an economics class and they will tell you the true story behind this.. For reference.. Look at what happened when Communism feel in Russia.. They had price controls before they feel.. exactly what a cap on profits is.. (well sort of..) Bottom line is we are NOT running out of oil.. The correct statement we are running out of oil that is CHEAP to get to.. There are massive oil reserves around the world the issue is the refining and cost of getting to the oil is VERY expensive.. It amazes me how blind politicians become sometimes.. Look into the facts before you make a statement. If you look at the debt these Oil companies have it's insane! But of course I will point out one bullshit remark the oil companies have been making.. We made a 100 million dollar investment in ethanol and new technologies.. Sounds like a lot? WRONG! They spend more than that on an oil platform.. They really aren't out to find these new sources of energy unless the government basically gives them a freebie to research the technology.. Now here's what policians SHOULD do lower the gas prices.. Mind you these are long term solutions.. There is no smoking bullet to bring them down quickly.. besides nuking China and India.. lol.. 1. Allow the oil companies to drill in the Alaskan refuges and areas in the US where they can't now.. Get away from foreign oil 2. Tell the enviro nutz to settle down and allow refineries to be built! You causes more hurt to the economoy and the average joe by protesting this.. The "environmental" impact as you so call is much lower than everyone having to pay 8 bucks a gallon in gas.. BTW your donors to enviromental groups will go away if gas get that high! News flash... 3. Promote Ethanol like NO tomorrow.. It benefits farmers, the environment, and even our economy..Can't stress this enough..Though there are ALOT of issues to resolved to get ethanol to the pumps.. almost the same hurdles as getting hydrogen to the pumps.. Pipelines.. Read up on it.. 4. Force auto companies to STOP producing in Non-efficent vehicles.. Don't raise the CAFE standards.. Just don't allow the auto companies to use those credits to produce those damn gas guzzlers.. If you don't know what I am taking about read up on CAFE and learn about pollution credits. 5. Promote nuclear and coal power stations.. Natural gas was the savor for many electric companies in the mid 90's because it was CHEAP.. That's not the case anymore.. One of the biggest consumers of natural gas is not people it's power plants.. These NIMBY's bastards need to get a clue.. They even protested the nuke dump site in the middle of the desert... Where they used to light nuclear bombs daily off.. ASININE! 6. Promote conservation.. Carpooling..sounds stupid on the surface? But what about a tax break for car poolers? Hmm.. that's an idea! 7. Prohibit anymore oil company mergers.. They are getting to the point of a monopoly.. Any one remember standard oil? WTF? 8. Promote, Support, and FUND from the federal government a national high speed train network based on electric not diesel.. The airline industry will hate it.. but it will save fuel and help the environment.. Europe does it why not us? 9. Promote city mass transit.. Let me clarify promote transportation that uses alternate sources of energy.. Get the buses running on alternate fuels not diesel.. Get more subway lines in service.. 10. On the above note.. give tax breaks to school and city bus companies that switch over to fuels such as Ethanol or Electric. You need to create a demand to make the oil companies wise up.. There are alot more.. But that's the high level.. Blast me on them you might.. But before you do.. please do your research.. I have researched this OK.. but of course my facts may be a bit off but I admit it now.. I am not a professor in this stuff... I just read ALOT about it.. Thanx, Dan | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 997 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Lottery tickets, cigarettes, and newspapers are all low margin come-ons. Actually lottery tickets and cigarettes were a pain in the butt to handle because they had to be tracked so closely. The stations we had became maxed out on sales volume and the fuel sales didn't cover much in the way of overhead (rent, maintenance and electric bills were killers) - yes, 9-12 cents was gross. The major we were contracted with required card readers when they were introduced. We didn't have a choice, we didn't own the dispensers. We also had to use their credit card processor, debate almost every maintenance issue, and got maybe two days use of the gas money before they yanked it from our account. We had six different locations with them and got out just in time, right before they sold everything to the jobbers. not missing that 24/7/365 gig at all | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 139 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.62.6.147 |
We need to get used to the fact that gas prices are high. It is not a government regulated industry like electricity or gas so they can charge whatever they want. We are lucky it hasn't been this hight for years. They know and we know that we aren't going to change our habits anytime soon. | ||
Czar Member Username: Czar Post Number: 3060 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 72.49.166.173 |
Goat, you can buy into your conspiracy theories all you want. Reduce consumption and we're headed in the right direction. Even if gas remained at $3 a gallon (or more) for eternity, you'll get farther on your money if you drive a more fuel efficient car or (gasp) take public transportation, walk, ride a bike. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 489 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.222.54.70 |
"The way I'd like to see what you call the state's thievery stopped is through the implementation and use of mass transit and alternative fuels, not potentially giving more wildlife oil baths." er ...Lilpup...how the hell does that stop anything? ...IT DOESN'T ...IT DOESN'T EVEN FOLLOW THE LINE OF THINKING OF THE THREAD: Note to self: the price of bread is too high, I think that Wonder Bakery should spend more money on blue parachutes! If you like expensive gas prices ok. Keep your taxes high. If you don't like high gas prices lower the profit that the State Govt. makes ...take it back! Whichever way you go ...how you spend what profit for the State of Michigan remains is irrelevant unless you are not following the subject line of the discussion which is "THE PRICE of Gas" | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 7 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.209.167.204 |
I'm amazed at the low value many of you seem to place on the precious and unique resource that is ANWR. Unspoiled wilderness is quickly becoming a rarity in our world, and ANWR provides a unique habitat for all kinds of wildlife that would not have anywhere to go otherwise. If you can't appreciate the beauty and serenity of being miles away from any civilization in the middle of pure, unadulterated wilderness I certainly can't explain it to you, it's something you need to experience for yourself. What I can say is that, regardless of your political views, it should be much higher on your priority list than paying a few cents less at the pump. | ||
Thewack Member Username: Thewack Post Number: 200 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.68.187.250 |
The amount of oil in ANWAR is negligable anyway compared to the demand. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 685 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.42.220.37 |
These guys with the petition have opened my eyes. I now see that the oil in the ground in other countries actually belongs to them. They ou are entitled to it at below market prices. And the gasoline that's refined is all theirs. The people who produce oil are theirpersonal slaves, who's only purpose in life is to meet their expectations. Talk about the "world owes me a favor" mentality that's been the cornerstone of Michigan's "success" for 50 years. If people don't want to pay for oil, then they should bike to work, move closer to their jobs, car pool, ride the bus or sell those discusting fat-ass SUVs. (Message edited by ray on May 03, 2006) | ||
Paulj Member Username: Paulj Post Number: 355 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 68.250.41.176 |
wake up america. you already have it really good at $3, or even $4 a gallon. if you don't like it, buy a scooter or move closer to work. But if silly petitions or 'don't buy gas ' days make you feel better about it, well good for you. Just know that they have zero impact on the global oil market. ....but in light of all that, I'm sure the band will play on until the ship has sunk, rather than bail out the bilge by reducing consumption. Do the new Hummers have hankies built into the seatbelts for all the tears shed at the pump? | ||
Jiminnm Member Username: Jiminnm Post Number: 520 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.35.85.184 |
I recently read an economic report that fairly convincingly showed that the demand for gasoline in the US is nearly inelastic, meaning that it is not very price sensitive. Past consumption patterns indicate that for every 10% increase in price, demand drops only 1%. That isn't an immediate change either, as short term ups and downs have had no discernible effect on demand. The higher prices must be in effect for longer periods. I think the most recent data in the report was from 2004, so I don't know if the hypothesis fits the more recent runups. We'll see how if the most recent slowdown in SUV sales lasts and if there is a continued interest in high mileage cars. Also, Toyota owns the hybrid market, with 71% of total sales. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2349 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.21.106 |
Goat, I'd bet everything I have on it. The oil companies can't just create high prices without regard to supply/demand. If they could, why didn't they in 1999? Oil was around $10/bbl and gas was $0.99/gallon. Supply was much higher than demand since demand was depressed by global (not US) recession. Now most countries are doing well and demand is up, expecially in China. Historically oil has been around $20/bbl in inflation-adjusted dollars (see chart).  Starting around 2004 worldwide demand for oil finally exceeded refinery capacity (see next chart).  The recent run-up to $70+ is because demand has increased but supply hasn't kept up. The geopolitical situation hasn't helped but ther are always geopolitical problems. What's different this time is demand exceeds supply, driving up the price. As an analogy, look at supply/demand for sporting event tickets. When demand is less than capacity (only 15,000 people want to see an event in a 20,000 person stadium) the price is simply face value. But if 21,000 people or even more want to see the game there are not enough seats and those who want to see the game the most and who can afford it will pay over face value to get tickets from scalpers. The higher the demand, the higher the ticket price. If demand goes back down to 15,000 (think energy conservation, less driving, higher MPG) the ticket price drops back down to face or less on the street. The team might love to keep prices high to make more profit but they don't have that power. Neither do oil companies. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 741 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.14.30.175 |
i have a few comments...
it is, of course, very difficult to build new refineries, owing to environmentalists, and to citizens rejecting new refineries in the communities where they live. however, refinery capacity is up about 15% in the last 12 years, and additions in capacity have outpaced increases in demand for the past ten years: 2% added capacity, versus 1.5% increased consumption, annually.
you are correct. there's a big infrastructure issue, mainly with distribution - most of that ethanol has to find its way from the midwest to the east and west coasts. then, there's the energy needed to make ethanol. it's been estimated that 80 to 95% of the energy that ethanol yields comes from the oil and gas needed to produce it. we need a more efficient process (enzymes) to create ethanol.
i have to disagree here. so much of what we dislike as a society is there because there is a market for it. arianna huffington was widely ridiculed for her stance against gas-guzzlers, because how dare she stand in the way of our individual freedoms? the auto industry makes some very fuel-efficient cars. the american public buys suv's, without any consideration for the fact that gas prices have inherent volatility. now we are seeing the day of reckoning, and people are appealing to the government like it's some giant pill that can instantly "fix it."
i agree. we need more nuclear power. in this case, i wish the government would take a more aggressive role.
yup - but again, why can't people take it upon themselves to utilize mass transportation, or engage in carpooling? how many michiganders know what an HOV (high-occupancy vehicle) lane is? again, it seems weird that we know what's best for us, but we need the government to tell us, or encourage us, to do it?
five majors left, definitely decreased competition.
seems like a smart idea - until you consider this country's government-managed projects. bureaucracy, inefficiency, cronyism, and going back to the taxpayers to cover cost overruns and delays. some other notes: we have india and china coming online as industrialized nations, with their own demands for fuel. these two countries constitute over one-third of the world's population. iraq is having problems getting up oil production. pipelines are being blown up as soon as they are built, and petroleum companies are reluctant to put their people in harm's way to rebuild the infrastructure with the current unrest. we are in a showdown with iran - and notwithstanding its power as an oil producer, it sits on the strait of hormuz (quote from infoplease):
and there's venezuela, and the ongoing rhetoric; nigeria; and rumors that insurrection is brewing in saudi arabia. however, a complacent american public will take that escalade over a prius any day of the week. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8403 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.56.144 |
Thanks for the reply Track75. I am a bit of a pessimist, but I think OPEC would slowly shut the valves off so to speak, so that they could keep the price of oil relatively high. Consider that is their (OPEC) only source of money I don't think they would allow it's use to become nil and therefore slide into decline. Why didn't they do anything when it was $10.00/bbl? I don't know, but I'm sure there was a lot of politics involved (and you are correct less demand than today considering China has been using larger and larger volumes since about 2000). And as you stated, geopolitics are always involved especially in this time. | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2471 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
From the horse's mouth:
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Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 999 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.129.146.186 |
nope, the object is to reduce overall oil use as a fuel. Period. (Since many plastics are petroleum based, how come the price of plastic products hasn't gone through the roof?)
reduced oil use requires less refining capacity
uh huh & who currently controls the distribution system in this country? no surprise it's Big Oil
renewable clean burning fuels make SUVs viable
no nuclear power - why take the risk as well as produce hazardous waste? promote solar, wind, hydro - imagine if every house was stand alone solar powered. Wind & hydro can supply large businesses.
mass transit - the ultimate carpool
definitely
the politics of oil | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1787 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.105 |
It has gone through the roof. If you look at any of the auto suppliers quarterly reports, they are all bitching about the cost of raw plastic. They have very limited ability to raise prices to the OEM's. It is one of the factors driving auto suppliers to cheaper labor sources. | ||
Funkycarrie Member Username: Funkycarrie Post Number: 207 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 69.208.117.53 |
The issue with Ethanol right now is it is NOT cost effective to produce. We need to find a crop like the sugar cane in Brazil. Also, they have not found an alternative fuel source that can match our oil consumption. Hense the stress on the fact that people need to change their lifestyles. Also, like it has been said, ANWR and other similar spots ARE NOT THE ANSWER. They will only bandage the issue . Like I've said previously, regardless if we DOUBLE the amount of oil in the world right now, peak oil will only be offset by 10-20 years at best. Plastic prices will go up, gas prices aren't through the roof yet either....be patient. | ||
Unclefrank Member Username: Unclefrank Post Number: 40 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 192.85.50.1 |
How many people are practicing gas conservation out there. I drive my little sub compact at 60 MPH in the slow lane, and idiots zoom by me in their big SUV's and PU Trucks like I'm standing still. If you want gas prices to come down, then quit using so much. Law of supply and demand folks. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 489 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.215.30.34 |
Keep your feet on the ground, folks, we are just starting to roll. Plastic prices will go up, as a matter of fact ..... prices of everything are heading north due to the logistics of having to transport stuff around. Milk, eggs, meat and etc, that we eat each day ..... unless you have cows and chicken in your backyard to obtain these items ..... chances are that they were transported to the grocery store. Pizza delivery will be costing more and so on. Brace yourself, because if Michigan's and Detroit's economy aren't bad enough yet ..... the worse is still to come. We already have the worse foreclosure rate in the entire country, we already rank among the top 2-3 states with the worst unemployment rate, and with the prices of everyday goods going up ..... we are surely cornered for more bad news. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8407 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.56.144 |
Question. If the price is set on the open market why is diesel fuel so expensive when it is a byproduct of gasoline? Also, Canada pays more than the USA not including taxes. Something is amiss. Inflation here we come... | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1682 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Diesel is not exactly a byproduct of gasoline. Oil distillation works like this (very simplified explaination): Oil is heated up until it evaporates (not in the prescence of oxygen). It is condensed and different tempuratures in a vertical column. Coldest tempuratures at the top. Each section up is a lighter and more volatile (which means more explosive) product. Gas is higher up the chain than diesel, which is higher up than motor oil. Now since gasoline is in very high demand, but products like tar are not, cracking technology was developed long ago. Cracking breaks up long, large, and viscous molecules into smaller, more volatile ones. The result is that more gasoline can be made out of the same amount of oil (but less other products, which are not as valuable). In this way, diesel can kinda be turned into gasoline. But they are both products of oil. The problem with tar sands is that there is less of the volatile compounds, and more of the useless sludge, so more cracking is required. That and all of the sand mixed up with it too. I'm not a geologist or a chemist, so I probably got a few of the details a little off (I'd like to be corrected). But that is probably a decent layman's explanation. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 238 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 69.212.214.147 |
Jsmeyers: very cogent explanation. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 607 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Here's a visual depiction of fractional distillation: Simple Distillation While not everbody studies geology or chemical engineering, most of the above details are correct. But if you do want something corrected, fine. It's not "tempurature." BTW, the fractional distillates are generally determined by the number of carbons in the separated alkanes. [So the chains in the above description should be reconsidered in this light.] Therefore, the smaller chains are the propanes (3C) and butanes (4C). Larger chains are the naphthas (gasoline, usually 8C), and still larger C-chains make up diesel fuels and lubricating oils, among others. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on May 04, 2006) | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1685 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
I always get that one wrong when I don't check what I write. In the spirit of the moment, I'm not "jsmeyers." <-------------- J/K. Thanks for the link and the confirmation. | ||
Fjw718 Member Username: Fjw718 Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 38.117.242.163 |
Why not a petition on the extremly high price of filet mignon? Oh wait, because we are not supposed to think of it as a neccesity but as a luxury instead. Maybe if people used their freaking heads and got out of the car once in a while the gas prices wouldnt be hitting their pockets so hard. | ||
Machoken Member Username: Machoken Post Number: 1230 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.85.155.145 |
I'm actually excited for higher gas prices. With the mileage my car gets I figured that gas would have to be in the $2.75 range or higher in order for it to be cheaper for me to take the bus to work. And so, I just used up my SMART value pass today and got myself a nice shiny new one for tomorrow. | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 51 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Are oil prices really going up or is the value of the dollar going down? BTW, why don't people just live closer to where they work? | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 747 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.14.30.175 |
oil prices are up, *and* the value of the dollar is down! | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 983 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.142.86.133 |
What good is a stupid petition gonna do? Who cares? If you don't like it, don't buy so much of it. End of story. | ||
Digitaldom Member Username: Digitaldom Post Number: 436 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 24.192.148.150 |
Well it really depends on where you work really.. Hence the fun of urban sprawl versus cost of living come into play here.. I work in Auburn Hills.. It would cost me 400 bucks more a month to have an apartment there than in Shelby Twp where I live now.. Don't even get on me about living on the outskirts.. because my company is on the outskirts.. I can't afford to live closer to my work... Too damn expensive.. In some cases that is not the case.. I wish I made enough to afford a house near my work.. But I don't.. And I don't want to live in Pontiac either.. they have city taxes.. no thank you.. BTW my car gets around 28 MPG.. and it's NOT a hybrid.. Or so my MPG sensor on my car is telling me... Now as far as Ethanol is considered... You have to understand one vital fact.. The oil companies really don't own the pipeline.. I used to work for a pipeline company.. Basically the oil companies pay for time on a pipeline.. Simply put they put one barrel in and get one barrel out the other side.. Most likely it is NOT the same oil they put in.. Ethanol is a scouring agent.. In otherwords it cleans like no tomorrow.. and it absorbs water as well... So if you want pure ethanol to flow up the pipeline you need to clean the pipeline first.. The nature of pipelines.. They have to put in what's called a pig in the line to prevent mixing.. Recent technology has allowed them to stop using pigs with different grades of gasoline.. But never the less.. But ethanol is different.. You need pigs to prevent mixing.. It is true the price of Ethanol is way to expensive at this point.. The government has tax breaks in place at this time that make it on the level of gasoline.. Now as far as Solar, Wind, and Etc.. Well lets take a deeper dive into this subject.. One solar is TOO expensive for the average home owner to see a return on there investment.. Wind.. Well.. the enviro nutz struck again in California and shutdown wind mill farms because of the noise, the site on them and because birds were flying into them and being killed.. Sorry there is not quick CHEAP solution to this.. Yes conservation is the answer.. But as it was said in response on my forum people will continue to buy SUV's that get 9 MPG.. We can't stop it really.. It's the american way.. And it's the right to choose as well. Which I defend the right to free speech so much these days! But removing the automotive credits to produce these cars will force the car industry to make change and make these vehicles more fuel efficent.. Nuclear produces no emissions at the plants.. Yes waste is an issue.. but the cost to provide the same amount of energy by solar and wind.. is way too high.. BTW you can't produce solar power without the sun! And wind is only viable in limited locations.. We are stuck at this point.. Nuclear has to be part of the mix if we want to clean our air.. |
