Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 What's the solution for Belle Isle? Previous Next
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Pacypacy_
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Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 136.181.195.84
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 2:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I favor admission fees, but no fees for the cultural attractions, reopening the aquarium, an outright ban on alcohol and also on any "music" that can be heard (or felt)outside of ones personal space or reserved pavillion area.
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Sharmaal
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Username: Sharmaal

Post Number: 802
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 136.1.1.101
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 2:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't know Belle Isle was a problem.
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Dang
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Username: Dang

Post Number: 38
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.212.210.128
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 2:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fuddy. Duddy.
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 644
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.42.176.123
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 2:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, I'd like to see the city turn administrative control of it over to the Metro Parks System but retain ownership. Make it a similar deal it brokered for the Zoo. That way there would be a Metro Parks park in the city, making it easier for city residents to get some return on the taxes. This idea has been shopped around before, but nothing really seems to come of it.

The city has made some shrewd decisions about the island recently. Caging the deer and instituting a curfew on were great moves.
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7milekid
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Username: 7milekid

Post Number: 16
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 68.41.222.28
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 3:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with pacy, I feel that there should be a ban on excessivly loud music, and an admission fee of around $5 per person. Both of those measures would cut down on the seemingly constant flow of ghetto trash treating the island as a place to act a fool
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The_aram
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Username: The_aram

Post Number: 4865
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.41.124.8
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 3:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

$5/person?

That's a bit steep. And cost prohibitive. Let's face it- would you drop $5/person if you have a family of five to take the kids for an afternoon in the park? My guess is no. Admissions fees for Belle Isle are nice to contemplate, but if instituted, you'll not only detract the less-than-desirable use of the island, but also the people who responsibly and respectfully use the facilities. Belle Isle is beautiful, but not $5/person beautiful. Keeping the island family-friendly also means a responsibility to make it cost effective for said families.
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Dang
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Username: Dang

Post Number: 39
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.212.210.128
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 3:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like Belle Isle pretty much as it is. It could be cleaner, certainly. But a ban on music? C'mon... young people in cars are going to gather up and jam their music... as I'm sure you did as a young adult as well. Or perhaps not...
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1007
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 69.129.146.186
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 3:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd support a ban on glass containers and enforcement of littering laws
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Crew
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Username: Crew

Post Number: 952
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 146.9.52.66
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 3:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sell the naming rights and move it to Oakland County.........

"Guardian Industries Belle Isle Park and Music Pavilion"
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1695
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 3:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Metroparks have vehicle entry fees, usually $4 per day. I think that would be a good idea for Belle Ilse regardless of whether or not the HCMA gets invovled (they won't right now, even though I think they should.)

If you walk or bike, you get in free. If you take the bus, you get in free. If you load up your car with a lot of people, you save money too. If you get an annual pass, you save too.

Roll the money back into the park, and I believe it will be a successful change.

Out of the box idea:
I think the city should hire a small flock of sheep to cut the grass on the big parks like Belle Isle and Rouge. Save time, money, and the environment.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1336
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.220.230.150
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 4:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1.) Eliminate cars.
2.) Build the Gondola and continue to Canada meeting in Belle Isle.
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Chub
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Username: Chub

Post Number: 314
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.246.28.200
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 4:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

$5.00 per car would be fine to me. I'm guessing that adding an admission alone would keep a lot of the trash out.
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Dang
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Username: Dang

Post Number: 40
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.212.210.128
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 4:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Holy judgemental forumers, Lowell! I'm shocked at the excessive use of the word "TRASH" in reference to other people. People are people. Granted, there are idiots and geniuses, but seriously... TRASH?

Listen to yourselves... er, read...
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Valkyrias
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Username: Valkyrias

Post Number: 245
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 66.238.129.197
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 4:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

so calling them idiots is better as opposed to calling them trash? i don't see a difference here...if people are people to you, then you shouldn't classify them at all.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1501
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 68.248.10.150
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 4:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point, Dang.

And, rest assured, even though you pay a fee to use metropark, there is "trash" using those parks as well.

Detroit should retain ownership of the Isle until the bitter end. There should be NO fee, ever, for just crossing the bridge and driving around. Charge fees for use of the pavillions, waterpark, and entrance to whatever attractions are left in the future, and allow private entities to resurrect the zoo and aquarium (and preserve other sites).

What happened to the redevelopment plan for the Boat Club?

And, oh yeah, get rid of the curfew.
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Chub
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Username: Chub

Post Number: 315
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.246.28.200
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People who toss bottles and paper out the window of their car onto what could be one of the most beautiful places in Detroit are in my opinion "Trash". I don't care what race or gender they are.

I could have used much harsher words, believe me.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 356
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Boblo Island North! :-)
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Funkycarrie
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Username: Funkycarrie

Post Number: 218
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 69.208.117.53
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belle Isle needs to be transformed back into the park that it was back in the day. Something needs to be done though, it's sad what has become of the island.
Although harsh, I'd support the loud music ban, or even a "cruising" ban...I know some cities have those, it might cut back on the grit the island has accumulated.

Has anyone else seen videos of what the place used to be like??
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Messykitty
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Username: Messykitty

Post Number: 4
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 24.21.198.33
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Give it to Windsor. They'll take care of it.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7374
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fight to have all money sent by Detroit to HCMA moved to support Belle Isle. HCMA supports nothing in the city of Detroit wo why should we support parks that are 20-40 miles away.

The $3 - $4 M sent to HCMA (guessing amount) would go a long way on Belle Isle. I would also recommend that people stop going to HCMA parks and send the money they would pay to get in to Friends of Belle Isle.
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Leob
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Username: Leob

Post Number: 44
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 69.14.9.224
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was truly a gem. Perhaps the $4/car could have saved the Aquarium.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 94
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 63.85.13.248
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd go back to Coleman's plan and cover the Island with casinos and golf courses!

Okay maybe not, but how about using the casino for Weddings or other special events? Rebuild the boat club as a semi-public boat dock and snazzy restraunts? An up grade of the current concessionaires? These could generate revenue for the park. I'd see no need to charge if we can get them to be more self-supporting, give people a reason to want to buy food on the island.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 646
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I find it strange that Ron--the candidate for Michigan's 4th Legislative District which includes Belle Isle--hasn't jumped in. Perhaps, he's too busy today after his TV interview this morning and all...
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 828
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.39.170.90
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Okay maybe not, but how about using the casino for Weddings or other special events?




Wow, I must have totally hallucinated being at that wedding reception at the casino earlier this year...
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 358
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 5:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

US/Canada customs plaza with secure road to bridge and tunnel. :-)
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 499
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.209.164.233
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 6:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pacypacy_: Welcome to the forum. A discussion about Belle Isle had occurred very recently. Here is a link, but the first half can be skipped due to a few trouble-makers being asses as they usually do: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/62684/66378.html

No solution can be implemented if there are people who likes Belle Isle the way it is. No solution can be implemented if there are people who likes Detroit the way it is. I believe you can see how useless any solutions are, due to the kind of opinion being expressed in the old thread.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 347
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 6:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I agree with pacy, I feel that there should be a ban on excessivly loud music, and an admission fee of around $5 per person. Both of those measures would cut down on the seemingly constant flow of ghetto trash treating the island as a place to act a fool




7milekid, how about only admitting middle/upper class people, only r&b, smooth jazz and soft rock. Oh and we should bump it to $20 a person to keep out the poor black kids from the neighborhoods, especially the teenagers.

jk.
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 46
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 72.229.136.103
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 7:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a idea. The city should do these simple steps and save the Belle.

1. No cars on the weekend. Make people walk in the park again.

2. Start a shuttle service from Gaberial park. If you want to get on Belle Isle on the weekend you have to take a shuttle bus across the bridge for $1. If you want to have a picnic you have to make an appointment with the parks service to rent a van to bring iteams to the park.

3. Build a underground garage (or use existing) for resident to park and ride a trolly from downtown DETROIT along the new riverfront park or try a romantic horse and buggie ride. DETROIT should really utilize the waterfront.313
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Douglasm
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Username: Douglasm

Post Number: 549
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.189.188.28
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 7:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A bit of history education, please.....

.....hasn't the idea of the Metropolitan Parks District running Belle Isle been kicking around since the late '60's?
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Naturalsister
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Username: Naturalsister

Post Number: 614
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.255.238.220
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 7:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, there should be some order and procedure as to how the park is utilised. We all know that people of all levels - class, creed, and whatever the fuck will tend to abuse too much freedom.

Belle Isle could be returned to jewel status in the matter of probably about 2 years if we implement some of the ideas proposed here and throw a little money at the problem.

Yeah, the city's broke - but we all know things are about management. We can find the money somehwere. The Detroit Riverfront Conservancy must have a clue. If they don't, then we should give them one.

http://www.detroitriverfront.o rg/index.asp?item=668&name=The +Staff&site=5

I suggest Michigan work diligently to improve our relationship with the Feds.

A lot of folks on this forum have the where-with-all to serve on some of thesed boards and get this stuff done.

I plan to put myself out there for Detroit in a major way (Once my credit score is over 720).
That would be the only dirt anyone could dig up on me.

I love the idea of no cars on the island. Since we are parking lot crazy around here anyway, we could make space for the parked cars. A shuttle service that uses the trolley looking things would add charm and restore some dignity to the Isle.

later - naturalsister
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Pacypacy_
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Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 24.192.166.67
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 8:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: ( Detroit should retain ownership of the Isle until the bitter end.)

My idea: A per vehicle fee of $5.00 is not excessive maybe seniors $3.00 M-F. ( The reasoning here is people buy bottled water or gatorade for that much) Besides if a rowdy has to make a decision between another 40 ounce beer AND paying to get on the island maybe they will do families a favor and stay off.

Charging the fee to get on the island itself would serve two purposes: 1. It would make all visitors pass through some type of checkpoint area where one of our island police could also be on duty to scope out the people and act as a deterrent for drunks/druggies.
2. By paying to enter the island instead of the cutural attractions the city would collect more money and also the ones coming to party and trash the island would be paying for the clean-up and the cultural attractions as opposed to just the opposite which is the current status quo.

Like the quote from another poster above. It would indeed be a "bitter end". When Mr. Scott donated Belle Isle to the city, his vision was a green retreat where a family could go and experience quite and solitude as a kind of tonic to soothe big city nerves. What we have today is an Island that is in many ways a mini Detroit with the same problems, noise, crime, drugs,litter etc.. Mr. Scott must be turning over in his grave at the island today.
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 242
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 9:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GIVE IT TO THE METROPARKS! They have proven that they are capable of maintaining and operating similar parks and the City has proven that they are incapable of doing so.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 62
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 68.40.50.194
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 9:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Belle Isle should remain city owned and operated. I also think that they should do away with the curfew. That was never the problem.

Since Belle Isle is within city limits it is already bounded by the noise ordinance approved by the city council two or three years ago.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 450
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.210.161
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 11:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually the City has proven pretty capable with BI it looks better than has in years thing aren't perfect, but BI doesn't need a major overhaul in management. Really I'd like the City to partner with FOBI to reopen and manage the aquarium. Also for additional maintainene similar what annouced for downtown with dedicated cleanup crews. As for fees they should limited to attractions certainly not for general admission to the island
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7375
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 4.229.99.245
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 11:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

GIVE IT TO THE METROPARKS! They have proven that they are capable of maintaining and operating similar parks and the City has proven that they are incapable of doing so.




Metroparks politely told Detroit to go fuck themselves and BI when approached about it. Enough HCMA talk. They clearly want nothing to do with Detroit except our tax money.
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Jerome81
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Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 989
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.142.86.133
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 1:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have always liked the fee idea for vehicles. Most state parks have these fees. If you use the park often, you get the season pass.

Even if you only use it a few times or just like to drive around it every now and then (like I did when living in the D), I'd still pay the yearly pass, knowing that all my money goes back into maintaining the park for all to enjoy.

And I do think it would help deter those who are there to do no good to do it someplace else. Why pay $5 to break the law when you can do it elsewhere for free? Plus you can screen on the way in.

I also like the curfew.

Don't give up control and ownership. But if you can spread the costs and get some better management and facilities, maybe the metroparks systems would be good.

And the idea for the trolley from the ren cen to belle isle when the riverwalk is completely done is an AWESOME idea!
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3684
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.167.135.33
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 2:16 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with, Eric. The park is looking better than it has in years even if it still has a long way to go. That's what happens when half of your population relocates to other municipalities (i.e. less money for city services, parks included).
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 453
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.210.161
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 3:01 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All this fee keeping the trash out did you all consider you'd be keeping out very people you want? A family should at least be able to go to the park for free it shouldn't cost $5 for someone to take their kids to fly a kite. Let's not forget the vast majority users are responsible. Charging for more of the attractions is a good compromise between the 5 entrance fee and no fee
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Jerome81
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Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 991
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.142.86.133
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 3:04 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric-
I do see your point. I guess my point is that if people like to fly kites a lot, they can buy a season pass for say, $30, and they can go all they want.

It doesn't cost $5 to fly a kite, it costs $30/year to drive onto the island, then you can do whatever you want :-)
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3685
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.167.135.33
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 3:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like Eric's compromise. Entrance fees for municipal parks should be considered as a last ditch pitch. The city simply needs to decide what it values the most in terms of city services (apart from the basics of fire and police, of course).
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Erikd
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Username: Erikd

Post Number: 622
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.214.106
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 3:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Metroparks politely told Detroit to go fuck themselves and BI when approached about it.




JT1,

Where did you hear this? I don't remember Detroit pushing a plan to turn BI into a Metropark...
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 148
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 4:16 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The music was pretty loud when I was there last week. But at least it made the place feel lively. I don't care what people were gathering there for. I sure wish people here in Ann Arbor and Saginaw used our parks as much as Detroiters do.

But yeah, the garbage on the ground is definitely an issue.

(Message edited by wolverine on May 11, 2006)
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 3263
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.79.92.22
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 8:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

When Mr. Scott donated Belle Isle to the city, his vision was a green retreat where a family could go and experience quite and solitude as a kind of tonic to soothe big city nerves. What we have today is an Island that is in many ways a mini Detroit with the same problems, noise, crime, drugs,litter etc.. Mr. Scott must be turning over in his grave at the island today.




Pacypacy_,
You're new here so you receive a pass. I'd recommend you learn a bit of history before you make statements like that.

Mr. Scott did not donate Belle Isle. The City purchased it from the Macomb family.

Mr. Scott was a petulant and colourful figure, gambler(?), and casino owner who left in his will a clause to have a fountain built to his legacy. It was a controversy at the time whether or not the City should accede to his wishes. John C. Lodge wrote a bit in his autobiography regarding Mr. Scott and the fountain.

Despite your historical inaccuracies, I agree with you that a fee, if designated for the island's upkeep and improvement only would not be an burden. Iliked the $3.00 daily, $15.00 yearly proposal submitted to Council a few years back.

As far as the No Alcohol requirement, obviously Carrie Nation would never be welcomed with open arms when we forunites get together in real life.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 651
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 8:26 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Once upon a time, Jams uttered (but didn't have a cow, or maybe so...): "Pacypacy_,
You're new here so you receive a pass. I'd recommend you learn a bit of history before you make statements like that.

Mr. Scott did not donate Belle Isle. The City purchased it from the Macomb family."



However, the Friends of Belle Isle have ideas of their own: History

Belle Isle was known to the Indians as Wah-nah-be-zee (White Swan) and was later renamed Isle St. Claire by the French. It was also called Ile de Cochons (Island of the Hogs) because wild pigs had been placed on the island by the first settlers.

In 1752, the French governor granted title to the island to M. Douville Dequinder. By 1760, the British had gained possession of Detroit and King George III, in 1768, gave George Mcdougall permission to live on the island as long as Detroit was maintained as a strategic military post. Lt. Mcdougall purchased the Island from the Chippewa and Ottawa Indians for five barrels of rum, three rolls of tobacco, three pounds of red paint and a belt of wampum. In 1793, Mcdougall's heirs sold Belle Isle to William Macomb for 1600 English pounds.

Then in 1817, Macomb's sons sold the island to Barnabas Campau. It was his descendants who sold Belle Isle to the City of Detroit in 1879 for $200.000. Some Detroiters opposed the purchase, arguing that the price was too high. It is believed the Island was renamed by Campau in honor of Isabelle Cass, the daughter of Lewis Cass, former Michigan territorial governor and later U.S. Senator.

The first bridge connecting the mainland with Belle Isle was built in 1889, but was destroyed by fire in 1915. A temporary bridge was built and used until 1923 when the present 2,193 foot bridge was completed. In 1953 the present bridge was named the Douglas MacArthur Bridge to honor general MacArthur who gained fame during World War II and the Korean War.

The name Belle Isle was officially confirmed by an ordinance of the Detroit Common Council in 1883, the city hired famed landscape architect Frederick Law Olmsted to create a master plan for the island's development. Olmsted also designed New York's Central Park, South park in Chicago and the grounds surrounding the Capitol in Washington D.C.

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on May 11, 2006)
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Pacypacy_
Member
Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 136.181.195.84
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 8:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was the $500,000.00 that threw me off. I graciously accept your pass! However Belle Isle was supposed to offer solitude and escape from big city life and I don't think that is no longer the case. I made the mistake of visiting the island on a friday night, total chaos, certainly no relief from the city atmosphere.Found this article below;

Scott Fountain: By Don Lochbiler


Was it his last and greatest joke? That was the burning question all over town when Detroit's most eccentric bachelor, James Scott, died at 79 on March 5, l9l0, bequeathing his $500,000 estate to the city to build a fountain on Belle Isle.


No near relatives survived to contest this seemingly generous gesture. But none were needed to stir up a hornet's nest. One string was attached to the bequest: Along with the fountain, the will provided, the city would erect a life-size bronze statue of the donor.

"Only a good man who has wrought things for humanity should be honored in this way," protested Bishop Charles D. Williams. The bishop's lead soon was followed by aldermen, civic leaders and citizens. Everybody in town seemed to be talking about Scott.

A monument to Scott on Belle Isle. Note the "keep off" sign.


He was a loafer and a gambler, it was pointed out. He told off-color stories. And he perpetrated vindictive practical jokes.

The "Hog Block" was one. Falling out with his neighbors, the respected McMillans who operated Detroit's leading grocery store at Fort and Woodward, Scott affixed to his house on the side toward the store, a huge carving of a hog.

"Scott's Folly" was another. When the owner of an adjoining lot refused to sell Scott some land that he wanted to add to his property at Park and Peterboro, Scott spent $20,000 to build a sham house. From the Peterboro side it looked like a mansion, but its elegant facade was attached to a high, windowless wall, whose only purpose was to shut out light from the home of the recalcitrant neighbor.

As the furor about building a monument to such a prankster reached its peak, the size of the statue for Scott became a subject of much drollery.

Dr. F. D. Leete, pastor of Central Methodist Church, thought a statue "about 2-1/2 inches high" might not mar the beauty of the fountain, besides being suitable to the moral stature of the subject. But life size? That was too much. On the other hand, a reader proposed in a letter to The Detroit News that the statue of Scott be l2 feet tall, displaying him "surprised, like Diana, in the bath."

The west side of Woodward Ave. between Congress and Fort Street prior to the turn of the century. John Scott, father of James, lived in the building adjoining the McMillan Wholesale Grocers store.


Another letter, signed "Monguagon", suggested roulette wheels and poker chips as appropriate embellishments for the fountain. And Dr. William B. Forbush, of Northwestern Congregational Church, argued that there already were too many fountains on Belle Isle. The city should wait, he said, "until somebody donates funds for removing one."

J. L. Hudson, the merchant prince who headed the Detroit Municipal League, summed up the case against acceptance of the bequest in a few brief but telling words: "Mr. Scott never did anything for Detroit in his lifetime and he never had a thought that was good for the city."

Hudson's summary gave pause to some of the proponents of the fountain. It was true that Scott's career didn't seem to have the historic significance that called for a monument.

Picnickers enjoy a stroll on a bucolic Belle Isle around 1920.


His father wisely had invested in Detroit real estate and left him a fortune, and it was said that Jim Scott never was known to do an hour's manual labor in his life.

His days were spent as a leisurely man-about-town, enjoying convivial talk and pleasant companionship. His best reputation seemed to be among waiters, newsboys and other servitors, among whom he was known as a generous man with tips.

On August 23,1873, at the bar of the Russell House Scott bought the first copy of the Detroit News from a newsboy, Jack Shepherd who had hung around The News' offices for days for the chance to sell the first paper. Later it was reported Scott gave him a quarter and let him keep the change. The price of the paper was two cents.

Just as it seemed that the tumult about Scott's bequest would end the project, strong voices for acceptance began to be heard. One was that of Alderman David Heineman, who carried weight in the City Council.

An aerial view of the fountain taken by Detroit News photographer William Kuenzel in 1930 from a Detroit News airplane.


Speaking to reporters gathered in the office of Mayor Philip Breitmeyer, Heineman said: "I can look around this office and see pictures of men who played poker with Jim Scott. I say the bequest should be accepted." He also recalled that "Jim always liked Belle Isle and loved to see the children there."

The mayor agreed with Heineman. "I don't believe the city has a right to insult any of her citizens by refusing a gift for such a good cause," he said.

In the end, their view prevailed. It took more than l5 years, but Breitmeyer lived to attend the fountain's dedication in l925. Cass Gilbert, the New York architect who planned the Detroit Public Library, won a competition for design of the glistening white memorial at the lower end of the city's pleasure island.

Neptune spouts water at the base of the fountain.


Gilbert drew motifs from Detroit's history. A great outer bowl of marble was reached by ascending steps, and three concentric marble rims led up to the main bowl. A central pedestal of carved figures upheld the topmost basin.

A many-jetted circular spray of water rose from the rim, with the main jet in the center towering skyward. Visitors found Neptune depicted on the fountain. There were dolphins, lions and turtles spouting crystal streams of water. And, in a touch that Jim Scott surely would have approved, they found plenty of archaic Greek drinking horns.

Today children love it...children of all ages. Scott's bronze figure is seated, seemingly watchful of the fountain's sprays and looking beyond them to the towers of Detroit rising against the sky downriver.

Youngsters delight in sitting in Scott's lap. They crawl over his statue as happily as children crawl over the statue of Hans Christian Andersen in New York's Central Park.

If the fountain was Scott's last joke, time has made the jest a kindly one.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7379
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 9:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

erikd - The city approached HCMA about BI and the State Fairgrounds. HMCA has stated they their budget will not allow them to take any responsibility greater than what they have. They have also cited that they were started to have parks around Detroit, not in them and are unwilling to budge on a vision from earlier in the 20th century when the region was vastly different.

According to the financial information I received from HCMA when asked about the claims that they do a lot of work in the city I was given a number of around $50k for programming at BI. Essentially a part time staffer which I believe was slated to be cut by HCMA.

I have spoke with people in the city and HCMA and they both agreed that the city had gone to HCMA to work out something to assist with BI and the State Fairgrounds and both have agreed that HCMA has stated that they will not assist with either nor would they even consider taking either on as a Metropark.

By a rough estimate Detroit sends $3-4 MM per year to HCMA to maintain parks all over the metro area and gets less than $100k back in 'programming'. That is why I believe that the city should address having the tax money (or a portion of it) that is sent by Detroiters to HCMA routed back to city parks specifically BI.
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Jams
Member
Username: Jams

Post Number: 3264
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.72.149.72
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 9:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, LY,
I knew the Campau family was involved somewhere. I was just too tired and lazy to doublecheck my facts. Insomnia sucks.

Always willing to accept being corrected on factual information.

James Scott piques my curiousity. I've "explored" his home on Peterboro and have read several accounts of his life both pro and con.

Always check me if I post inaccurate info, it helps me to make sure the grey matter files have the correct data.

I still find incedulous, unless I'm mistaken, the Macomb family owned both Belle Isle and Grosse Ile, that is rich beyond my comprehension.

Not dissimilar to that poor farm boy, Henry Ford, whose extended family owned most of the farmland along what is now Warren between roughly Greenfield and Rouge Park
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Ron
Member
Username: Ron

Post Number: 110
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 70.212.52.195
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 9:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok Livernois....you've baited me into it.

For the record, Belle Isle is city owned and operated. It should stay that way. The State has no sway over the decisions regarding its operation, and I did not necessarily feel the need to put my $.02 in.

I remember in my younger days when the young people of my generation (I'm 32) used to congregate on the Isle on weekend nights. I went there because there was a large gathering of young people, we could go there to associate with each other, meet new people, listen to music, and it was free. I did not grow up in a family that was well-off financially, so I appreciated those activities I could partake in that were low to no cost. I never once witnessed any violence or illegal activity, other than the occasional underage drinking.

That being said, I agree that the Isle could use a "sprucing up." I oppose an admission fee. I support, in theory at least, the concept of a use fee for the facilities for private functions.

My opinion is that the condition of Belle Isle is merely a symptom of the larger issue of fewer residents paying for the same services. Obviously, when there is less money to go around, the non-essential services and perks go first. If we are able to attract more residents, and stem the tide of residents leaving the city, then we could rebuild the tax base and allow more money to maintain the park.

I also agree that there is some waste that could be addressed. The story that comes to mind is when Alonzo Bates worked for the Parks and Rec Department, was caught at home all day, the media did a story on it, and he then took a medical leave because of the stress caused by the story. Ludicrous!

We all can do a little to make the park cleaner and more hospitable. We can throw our trash away. We can enjoy our music at moderate levels. Not everyone will do the same, but I believe there are existing ordinances on the books that could be enforced that would cut down on some of the concerns that people have.

I remember walking to the neighborhood park and playing basketball. I remember going to Rouge Park to play football. I never had to pay to get in. Access to those activities kept me and many of my friends out of trouble. We should all provide those same alternatives to the next generation.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 653
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 9:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No offense, Ron, but I would have mercilessly hounded you until you did. Too many candidates choose to avoid most issues which have two or more active viewpoints.

Glad you took the bait. BTW, I once caught (and released) four Muskies in less than three hours after work one morning only a mile from the State Capitol in downtown Madison. And all those fishing magazines lie. A bullhead or carp fights ten times harder than a musky. They're like reeling in a dead log.
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Hornwrecker
Member
Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1145
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.16
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 12:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Clarence Burton, much to his chagrin, was named executor of the Scott estate, and mediated the whole fountain mess.

Scott Fountain bathing "beauties"
WSU
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Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10057
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.226
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 1:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This topic comes up a few times a year. Every time it garners pretty much the same responses, with some asking for a fee to use the island, while others feel things are fine the way they are for the most part.

Personally, I don't see much of a problem with Belle Isle. Over the past 4 years it has improved significantly. It has workers picking up trash, 6 days a week I believe. The grass is mowed on a regular basis. The beach had new sand brought in last year. A new slide was installed last season. The casino was beautifully restored some years ago. The bell tower some some renovation work recently with the bells once again chimming. The Pavilion has been restored as well. The long burned out stables were torn down, with a portion being donated to Greenfield Village. The Nature Zoo was recently expanded, I believe work was still on going last time I was there.

Yes, the aquarium was closed down. The Boat Club continues to deteriorate as well. You can no longer rent canoes, ride horses, rent bikes, and some other things you could once do. Yet all and all, I think the island is looking pretty damn good.

People complain about the noise, yet most times I am there the noise is minimal. Once night fall rolls around, the island can get a bit rowdy. Yet as stated above, that's just what kids do. With they thousands upon thousands that hang out there at night, people are only looking to have a good time. The island remains practically trouble free, aside from a few problems here and there. People talk about the violence and problems on the island, yet they are far and few. I recall a guy shooting himself in the leg on accident, or something to that matter not long ago. Another person drown trying to swim to Canada drunk. That's about it over the past 5 years. Prior to that there was somebody shot and killed, I believe they were a local rapper, a member of D12 I think. Then there was a lady getting beat up on the bridge after an accident that jumped, only to drown. A few suicides off the bridge too I think. Yet there has hardly been anything of much conern to your average visitor.

Belle Isle is one of those gems that Detroit offers free of cost. The homeless can go and hang, as can the person down on their luck scraping to get buy. The island offers one down on hard times a relaxing atmosphere, birds flying around, ships strolling by, and a distant view of the city. If they were to start charging, many would be driven away.

I'm a strong advocated for keeping the island free and enjoyable for everyone. I really have no major complaints about the island aside from some minor improvements here and there. When I hear talk of the place needing major renovation or cleaning it tells me that people obviously don't frequent the island enough and their information is dated.
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Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 493
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.222.54.70
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 3:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tear down the Bridge!
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Ron
Member
Username: Ron

Post Number: 111
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 70.212.52.195
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 3:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not a problem Livernois. I actually enjoy the dialogue, and do not have a problem discussing my position on certain issues. I know that this goes against conventional political wisdom, but I don't consider myself a "politician" in the modern sense of the word. If I have to be labeled as such, I would rather it be in reference to a rather dated concept of a "politician" as a statesman.

I believe that this race can become a discussion with the citizens of the 4th District on the future of the city of Detroit. I am happy to share my views, and do not even pretend to have all of the answers. I am running because I love this city and do not believe in criticizing anything without first trying to do something to make it better. I am sure that the citizens of the 4th will let me know loud and clear on August 8 if they agree with me or not.

Until then, keep challenging me, as the dialogue helps me to refine my positions on certain issues, and will make me a better candidate and state representative.
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Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd

Post Number: 624
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.214.106
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 2:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JT1,

Thanks for the background info. I am very dismayed to hear that this idea has been so easily dismissed by the HCMA.
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The_aram
Member
Username: The_aram

Post Number: 4870
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.41.124.8
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 2:23 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's a great post, SS.

And for all the whining people make about the noise at night or noise in general... Let's think about it this way- If the responsible parties aren't allowed to make a ruckus on Belle Isle anymore, they'll just take it somewhere else. So, instead of being on an isolated island park far away from where people actually live, they're coming to a neighborhood park or school parking lot near you. You don't have to go to Belle Isle if you don't like the noise. You do, however, or at least probably do, need to go home at night.

I agree with SS that I don't particularly think the noise issue is that big of a deal. And I'd rather they be there with a significant police presence than somewhere else where there's not a police station literally within eyesight.

I was out on the island one day a couple summers ago, driving around, trying to find a parking place for the Grand Marquis so I could go take some pictures. I couldn't, though, as the streets were jam packed with cars and kids driving far too fast and recklessly. So here I am, in my huge car, trying to mind my own business while there's literally a party going on around me. So up rolls a police car. And he starts up the sirens. He starts driving up behind cars, sometimes not even closing his car door between each one, getting out to check license and registration, then getting back in to pull another car over. It was astounding. He wasn't handing out tickets- but he was making his presence known. I've never seen anything like it. It was great. Reassuring, and it certainly calmed things down a little bit. It wasn't like the kids were doing anything blatantly wrong, but they needed to be curbed a little bit.
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River_rat
Member
Username: River_rat

Post Number: 114
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.126.175.26
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 7:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't believe I have been missing the latest Belle Isle thread while traveling around Dubai and Monaco. My group has offered to buy the bridge and the island for $500,000,000 (1/2 Billion) for several years now. It would require Detroit to yeild soveriegnty and we would establish a new governmental unit within the state of Michigan (probably a township).

The city could use the $$ to cure it's financial problems and better the lives of it's citizenry in any way the deem appropriate. The city has plenty of other parks, we want Belle Isle. We have posted this offer on the thread several times before and it was formally presented to the city several years ago with no response from a former mayor who was as incompetent as the office holders of that position for the last three decades.

You want to see a nice Belle Isle? Sell it to us!
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Pacypacy_
Member
Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 13
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 136.181.195.84
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 9:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The_aram Quote: (And for all the whining people make about the noise at night or noise in general... Let's think about it this way- If the responsible parties aren't allowed to make a ruckus on Belle Isle anymore, they'll just take it somewhere else.) So that makes it right?

That's an overly ambivilant attitude that ignores the fact that this particular group has in essense hijacked Belle Isle away from the rest of the city. People used to take their kids there and often spend the night when it was too hot to sleep at home. Would you do that today? The bottom line is Belle Isle was intended for all the people, not as a continuing 24/7 party for young people taking selected break times for work and schooling.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7384
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 10:01 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

You want to see a nice Belle Isle? Sell it to us!




So how would we be able to see it if you and your group propose to make it a city unto itself?
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Urbanoutdoors
Member
Username: Urbanoutdoors

Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 10:25 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am saddened it has come to this point. Fees..... I understand it would help pay for the matenence of the park but that is not the answer. If you look at any major city there staple is there city owned free greenspace. Giving that to the metro parks would be a detrament to the city. If we gave belle isle we might as well give up the rivefront, rouge, and clark park. heck who needs city government its too corupt anyways the county should be the answer to all our prays. Seriously people there is a more logical solution.
I like the fact that it is city controled but hate the way funds are designated and misused to maintain it. I propose something similar but scalled down version of the Hamilton anderson belle Isle Master plan, which includes taking out the east facing road(towards canada) and making it a multi use path for people to enjoy. If people so desperately do not want to walk there would be a tram. A model mass transit system for the city to use as a base for the future, using altenative energies. Have a 2-3 dollar fee for that keep small fees and reopen the aquarium. Use the history behind the island and the city as an asset not a detrament like it so often does. If we have this plan that has great Ideas use that not the metro parks. This plan is award winning and is somewhat ignored, due to lack of funding. check it out this is what needs to happen people.

http://www.asla.org/awards/200 4/04winners/entry178.html
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River_rat
Member
Username: River_rat

Post Number: 115
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.166.44.44
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 11:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1 - you could see it by being invited to visit by the new owners. And by the way, we would allow the Yacht Club, the Dossin Museum and the USCG to stay.

the benevolent group with river rat
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Jsmyers
Member
Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1696
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 11:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Haven't read all of the recent posts, but I wanted to make a quick comment.

Remember there is a big difference between charging admission for all people and charging a car to enter the park...Especially when there are so many other ways of getting there.
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2091
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.6.200
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 3:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1, I usually agree with your posts, but not on the HCMA issue. Yeah, HCMA didn't want to take over Belle Isle and the State Fair grounds... why? Because it would probably cost over $200 million to fix both up to HCMA standards. And they weren't the ones to let them get to the partial decrepit state that exists today.

And where is HCMA going to get that kind of money? Levy additional taxes? I highly doubt they could get away with it.

Yeah I agree that Detroit is 20 miles from the nearest Metropark, but then again so is Dearborn, Hamtramck, Highland Park, the Grosse Pointes, etc. But all these communities, even Detroit have a lot of folks going to the Metroparks, especially MetroBeach, Stony Creek and Kensington. Detroit shouldn't take a page book from Livonia, and treat HCMA as Livonia does SMART.
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Reetz12
Member
Username: Reetz12

Post Number: 51
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 68.40.172.108
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 6:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have another parking deck built on Jefferson, access via "The People Mover 2" to the island and have several stops around the island. Do not allow vehicles on the island (except maintenance/security/trucks for setting up parties, that park at the new parking deck.)

I think another parking deck being built, would start another interetsing thread....might as well throw another "Staples" on the island.

On a serious note, I think things are heading in the right direction on the isle, new deer exhibit looks nice, golf range is well kept and go ahead and privatize the aquarium or anything else somebody wants. MAybe Jerome Bettis or Dave Bing or who is the next sport great that can help us...step forward.
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Hamtramike
Member
Username: Hamtramike

Post Number: 461
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 4.229.90.224
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 12:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Although i was a little disappointed this spring (seemed to be a lot more trash than usual), most problem behavior can be corrected with simply enforcing current laws/ordinances we already have.

It takes little extra manpower to enforce littering laws when people litter right in front of an officer and he/she doesn't bother to stop and do anything about it. What about a plain clothes officer walking around the park a couple times a year handing out hefty fines until the word gets out? (All the $$$ would be coming from the suburbs anyway, as everyone is aware they are the true cause of detroit's trash problem.)
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Motorcitymayor2026
Member
Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 799
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 67.38.8.227
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 12:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"(All the $$$ would be coming from the suburbs anyway, as everyone is aware they are the true cause of detroit's trash problem.)"

You're kidding, right??
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Hamtramike
Member
Username: Hamtramike

Post Number: 463
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 4.229.90.224
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 1:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nope, I deduced the theory from a speach i heard the mayor give a couple of months ago and other comments i have read from other threads. Likewise, all trash in the CBD is from suburban red wing and tiger fans.
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Motorcitymayor2026
Member
Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 800
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 67.38.8.227
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 1:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ohhh...of course...

Kwame says it, its true!! :-)
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Broken_main
Member
Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 1094
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Build a skate park on Belle Isle. Bring back the horses, canoes, and build a pool. Section off a secluded area for camping.

Residents yearly pass 35 dollars
Non-residents 45 dollars

keep the park clean, bring summer concerts. there are so many options...why can't the city see that we need these play areas for our families. Oh yeah...no loud music past 8PM..makes everyone happy.

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