  Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 963 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
DeVos Now Leading in the Polls. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2006605110373 | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 109 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.212.52.195 |
Polls also put Hendrix and Kerry (I think) ahead before the election, and they both lost. I don't put much stock in polls anymore. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 652 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Ron, how come you don't contribute to the active Belle Isle thread? You are the candidate who's running in Belle Isle's district--4th Michigan--no? (Message edited by LivernoisYard on May 11, 2006) | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 649 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.42.176.123 |
It's a positive sign for DeVos, but I wouldn't put too much faith in it. I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were Granholm, for now. However, if the gov. starts a TV campaign in earnest and the poll numbers don't change significantly, then she should worry. For right now, Granholm is still the odds on favorite to win. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 964 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Yes, I agree. The places where DeVos is leading in the polls, are where they do not know much about him. In places where he is known (like Grand Rapids), Granholm is leading. Here is essentially the same article in the Detroit News. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060511/P OLITICS/605110412/1022 | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4109 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
Granholm will COME BACK as governor "4 MORE, YEARS, 4 MORE MORES, 4 MORE YEARS!!!" Voting for DeVos would be a BIG MISTAKE FOR THE MICHIGAN ECOMONY." | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2541 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.148.31.248 |
Ron, again the Hendrix/Kerry comparisons are simplistic not to mention inaccurate. Polling Detroit has been shown to be far different than polling anywhere else. Furthermore Bush was leading in most polls, the only polls that showed Kerry leading were later shown to be grossly weighted towards Democrats. Conversely Bob, Granholm is not doing well in her own backyard of Metro Detroit and the Detroit turnout for her, in particular, is very questionable at this point. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 456 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.11.210.161 |
It's May far too early to put any stock these numbers Granholm hasn't even run ad yet. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 965 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Very true, BUT I have a feeling once people start finding out about what kind of views DeVos has, I think it will swing back around to Granholm. People in Metro Detroit know very little about DeVos unless you have done some research or have family in the Grand Rapids area (like I have) who can tell you the truth about him. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2542 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.148.31.248 |
Bob, a lot of people in Metro Detroit are truly undecided about the governor's race and many of those same people (especially suburbanites) are unhappy about the Detroit Mayoral election, the zoo/water fiascos, and the current state of the state. Granholm associating with Kilpatrick will absolutely kill her. Also keep in mind that Kilpatrick owes the Republicans and look for a repeat of the Young/Blanchard/Engler situation. Also note that blaming Bush isn't going to work because too many people know that the rest of the country isn't in the same shape as this state. Bottom line: a very close race that could go either way. DeVos winning is a very real possibility. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 966 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I agree that DeVos winning is a distinct possibility, which is somewhat scary. And I'm not saying Granholm has been the best governor, but DeVos needs to start giving answers instead of this I am better than Granholm, I'm a jobs creator. I guess its working, because he's making inroads, but his views on things (like education) are pretty scary. I am also undecided because I want to see how he responds, but right now, he is not giving anything concrete. Just showing how he is a rich guy (thanks to daddy) who is spending his money (be it to a Virginia PR firm) to win. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2543 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.148.31.248 |
Likwise Bob, Granholm needs to start giving answers (she's had over 3 years) instead of counting on being a pretty face, blaming everyone and everything else for the state of the state, and cheesy, feel-good talk/policies ("Cool Cities"). Furthermore, she really needs to lose the condescending (speaking softly and slowly) tone. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7382 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Too much hinges on the candidates actually showing their plans. Its all speculation until they start giving the voters an idea what they intend to do. Could be close or a landslide either way. At this point I would like to hear from both candidates in regards to the issues | ||
Magnasco Member Username: Magnasco Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 209.69.165.10 |
Seems like she is doing a good job of not putting herself out there yet, but letting a lot of people try to put words in her mouth. That plus not going on the defensive early, ala Kerry, looks like a good tactic to me. So many people say they make their minds up towards the ends of campaigns anyway. Just give DeVos enough room to hang himself right now. And it looks like that's what she is doing. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 727 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
MetroGuy, I've seen her speak in person about 5 times now, and I never knew anyone else noticed her strange way of speaking. Thank the Lord I'm not crazy afterall. While I think any Republican Governor would be better for Michigan's economy in general, a Republican Governor would not be best for the City itself....... | ||
Dmb Member Username: Dmb Post Number: 187 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.88.86.3 |
I'm sorry but do we really want either candidate? Now while I understand that this fourm is more tilted towards the left (myself included), can we really point out anything that Granholm has done over the last few years? So basically we have a choice between a pyramid scam running neo-con that would ban the chewing of food if it was half mentioned by some ancient apostle or a woman that has basically sat around and done nothing for anyone over the last three years and has public speaking skills almost as bad as Hilary Clinton. Great choices. The future of Michigan will be in good hands. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 465 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 64.79.90.206 |
I would describe Granholm's speaking mannerisms as "maternal" or mother-like cadences, tenor and timbre. I've been a little turned off by it. Its hard for a woman politician, I guess. Hilary Clinton, who often comes across as strident (Granholm's exact opposite)is attacked for her speaking, too. I can't think of a woman in politics that I don't find myself judging on her speech - almost always negatively. There seems to be so much more belligerence in the women (Granholm excluded) - or is it overcompensating for the lighter voices and smaller statures? | ||
Hagglerock Member Username: Hagglerock Post Number: 225 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 12.214.243.66 |
Southwestmap, I wondered that too about Hilary and others like her, maybe it's the almost nagging like traits reminiscent of my mother. Gender aside, I also think it has a lot to do with the way all people of power address their consituents these days. From hearing speeches from the early 1900's of Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, FDR and Ike whose tone and rhetoric seemed to level with the average American rather than talk down to him. Which seems pretty evident in Presidents since Nixon. "or is it overcompensating for the lighter voices and smaller statures" Could be as Americans seem to favor taller people. more than half of all the Pesidents have been over 5ft 10in and most of those smaller than that were never considered great anyways.(Teddy and James Madison are some of the exceptions) | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 16 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.241.236.181 |
DeVos strikes me as a silver-spooned anointed son who is only where he is due to daddy. I can't in good faith vote for that. But as others have pointed out, what has Granholm actually accomplished? Our economy is still a shambles, especially compared to the rest of the nation. She hasn't put forward any realistic strategy for improving our state's economic position, either. I would like to know, exactly, what Granholm supporters think she will be able to do for the state if given another term. Or is support for Granholm all just based fear of the bogeyman DeVos? At least be honest. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 967 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I think at this point, it is more people thinking like when Fieger was running against Engler. Engler was not the favorite, but no one really wanted Feiger as governor. Now, Fieger and DeVos are no where even close to being similar, and I'm not saying Granholm is a god, but I think that is how some are viewing Granholm. I don't really see a great candidate in either person. Granholm hasn't done anything, but DeVos has made his fortune from his dad, taken credit for what his dad did, run a company that is a giant scam pyramid scheme, which expanded into China because there was no growth here because people know it is a scam, and have some pretty extreme views on things. We're really probably screwed no matter who is in office. I wish a candidate would come forward that would actually do something. Roger Penske for Governor? | ||
Toledolaw05 Member Username: Toledolaw05 Post Number: 9 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 72.240.58.198 |
"Granholm hasn't done anything" Yes she has - She is losing Michigan one job every ten minutes. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7383 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
WOuld the situation be any different under another Governor. Not sticking up for her but she inherited one hell of a mess. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3691 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.185.208.252 |
To me, this doesn't mean much...at the moment. What this simply shows is that DeVos, who's spent $3 million thus far, has brought up his name recognition with those that don't know him. Granholm, thus far, hasn't spent any money of television, or here campaign for re-election, for that matter. She should only start to worry if here campaign (when it takes off) does not raise her numbers a good 10% over DeVos. DeVos has started the race early, and it's showing in the poll numbers. But, who's to say he hasn't wrongly paced himself, or that something big will come out of his closet as time goes on. IMO, time and knowledge of DeVos will be his worst enemies. The more vague he is about himself and his plan for Michigan, the better. It's good he got out early because Granholm is going to give him a pounding when she comes out of the gate. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 658 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Duh! And Granholm didn't start campaigning almost four years ago? On that basis, DeVos started late in the game. Granholm has started the race early, and it's showing in the poll numbers. But, who's to say she hasn't wrongly paced herself, or that something big will come out of her closet as time goes on. IMO, time and knowledge of Granholm will be her worst enemies. The more vague she is about herself and her plan for Michigan, the better. It's good she got out early because DeVos is going to give her a pounding when he comes out of the gate. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 65 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 68.40.50.194 |
Granholm's hands aren't clean in this mess of an economy... but she isn't hardly to blame. Any sane person will acknowledge that former Governor Engler should be waist deep in the blame for this economy, if anyone. He was anti-urban, anti-mass transit, and anti-anything progressive... Now we've got a brain drain going ten times the rate that white people left Detroit. At least Jenny realizes it. All I hear Devos saying is that he'll create jobs if elected. Create jobs from what exactly? Another manufacturing industry? That's just putting a band aid on a gunshot wound. Has he not gotten the memo that manufacturing is all but kaput in this country? Let's speak it a little louder for those in the back row: WE CAN NO LONGER COMPETE THAT WAY. We have to educate ourselves on a massive level if we want to survive as a region or as a country. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3694 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.185.208.252 |
So original and witty, Livernois...you never cease to surprise me. *sarcasm* I have a hard time believing you actually believe what you speak half the time as it always seems as if you're just hear to argue for its own sake. Chances at meaningful debate with you always seem to be few and far between, as you seem content with just disagreeing. Anyway, to put Granholm away, DeVos has to, very soon, top her by at least 10%, IMO. He's been in a dead heat with her for 2 months if you believe the last few polls. He has to start making gains, soon, if he has any hope of beating her outright, as Granholm does have the convience, by virtue of being the incumbent, of waiting out the challenger for a time. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 625 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.214.106 |
I am very impressed with this thread. It is rare for political threads to contain much more than partisan name-calling and finger-pointing. Many of my thoughts on this topic have alread been stated by previous posters, but I'll throw in my .02... Ron is spot on about the poll numbers. Kerry and Hendrix both had good poll numbers, but lost the race. There were alot of people unhappy with Bush and Kilpatrick, but the challenger needs to offer more than "I'm not as bad as the incumbent." So far, DeVos has followed the Kerry/Hendix model of pointing out the failures of the incumbent, without showing why he would be better. Like many of the previous posters, I have been disappointed with Granholm. I tend to agree with her on many issues, but she hasn't done much to help out. Granholm talks about promoting "cool cities" and urban development, but I don't see her tackling the real problems. In his last days as governor, John Engler suddenly changed his mind (due to Detroit's resistance to Thompson's charter school proposal), and vetoed the DARTA legislation that had passed through the state house and senate with bipartisan support. Shortly after this veto, the leaders of Macomb, Oakland, Wayne, and Detroit got together and formed DARTA. The courts ruled that this city/suburban alliance didn't have the authority to form DARTA, and it was foiled again. Federal funding for DARTA had been secured by our representatives in Washington, and $100 million more for a Detroit to A2 line was secured a couple years later. Granholm came into office with a state house and senate that had just passed DARTA legislation, supported by LBP, Nancy White, Ficano, Kilpatrick, with federal funding secured by our reps in DC, and the support of both US Senators. Even with all of this support, Granholm has not been able to get DARTA started. The governor's highly publicized "cool cities" program is a lame pork-barrel project that allows her to pretend that she is doing something to help the urban areas in Michigan. We still have no regional transit system, but we got 100 grand for some "cool" projects in the city. Despite all of the lip service and political pandering, the unfortunate reality is that nothing has changed. The only difference I see between Granholm and DeVos is the people they pay lip service to. I'll be voting for the Libertarian canditate again, and I encourage others to join me. It's time that we send the message to Democrats and Republicans that we want leaders who will do more than give us lip service. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 992 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.142.86.133 |
Giant Douche or Turd Sandwich? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3695 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.185.208.252 |
Below... (Message edited by lmichigan on May 12, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3696 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.185.208.252 |
BTW, the poll being discussed in this thread also has a breakdown of how each region of Michigan voted. Some of the regions are rather confusing (to me, anyway), and they don't say how the defined them (i.e. Central): Total - DeVos: 46% Granholm: 45% Undecided: 9% Detroit (proper) - Granholm: 73% DeVos: 19% Undecided: 8% Outer Wayne (minus Detroit)- DeVos: 43% Granholm: 38% Undecided: 19% Outer Metro (everything but Wayne and Detroit?) - Granholm: 47% DeVos: 44% Undecided: 9% Central (?) - where DeVos is picking up DeVos: 57% Granholm: 36% Undecided: 7% West - Granholm: 46% DeVos: 46% Undecided: 7% North (?) - Granholm: 50% DeVos: 37% Undecided: 13% TriCounty (Outstate?) - DeVos: 50% Granholm: 43% Undecided: 7% TriCounty (Wayne/Oakland/Macomb) - Grandholm: 48% DeVos: 39% Undecided: 14% A kind of strange mix in a few places if you ask me. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4114 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.223 |
It seems like Granholm got a lot of support from Detroit except in Tri-County, outstate, central. But Granholm will get the election in the bag " GRANHOLM 4 MORE YEARS!!! | ||
Toledolaw05 Member Username: Toledolaw05 Post Number: 10 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 72.240.58.198 |
Danny - why does she deserve 4 more years? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4123 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.84.70 |
Because she really can put a hold on the states' fiscal policy and reduce government spending in order to slow down the $900 million dollar debt. Which she did and to worked for the moment. Bringing Dick DeVos in the governor seat would be a political diasaster waiting to happen. He would increase government deficit spending for the ecomony but making the state legislatures pay up to 2 to 5 billion dollars in its national debt. | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 15 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 136.181.195.84 |
Danny Member Username: Danny Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 11:14am: QUOTE(Granholm will COME BACK as governor "4 MORE, YEARS, 4 MORE MORES, 4 MORE YEARS!!!" Voting for DeVos would be a BIG MISTAKE FOR THE MICHIGAN ECOMONY.)" What economy??? Are you talking the highest unemployment rate in the country economy? The rest of the country is booming and has the lowest unemployment rates since the 70's, I believe. Again I ask, what economy? | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8451 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.53.96.156 |
Just curious? Whay the beat up on Granholm? The state is losing jobs due to outsourcing (whether out of country or to other states), manufacturing's ability to find other states willing to give them tax free set ups and free land taxes for numerous years. Plus, no union mentality to deal with. I am just wondering how this is her fault? What can she do? Suggestions? | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 733 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
I'll admit that I voted for Granholm the first time around, I was convinced she was a fiscally conservative Democrat. I won't make that mistake again. I'll vote for DeVos because I think he will make the fiscally tough choices to hold the line on expenses and maintain an overall low tax rate. I will continue to work hard to keep religion out of politics. And politics out of our personal lives........ | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 113 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.212.22.130 |
The current condition of Michigan's economy has been in the making for the better part of the last thirty years. It is common practice for those who oppose an incumbent to attempt to place all the blame for a particular situation on that incumbent. Remember "It's the economy, stupid!" (Bill Clinton 1992). That slogan, fairly or unfairly, placed the full blame for the country's economy on G H W Bush (or Poppa Bush as I affectionately call him - 'sarcasm'). We all know, particularly in economic affairs, that short-term solutions are just that: short term. This condition cannot be cured overnight. Therefore, placing all of the blame on Granholm is eerily similar to the Clinton tactic of 1992. Unfortunately for the incumbent, it often works. I think all rational people recognize, putting partisan concerns aside, that we have a long way to go before we experience any long-lasting, deep-rooted economic recovery. Someone pointed out in a different thread that Ohio is also heavily dependent on the manufacturing industry, only their manufacturing base is much more diverse than Michigan's, which relies heavily on the auto manufacturing industry. This explains why Ohio is not experiencing the same pain that we are. I have a serious problem with partisan politics that attempt to lay all blame on one candidate/incumbent/etc., despite their party affiliation. No one is completely to blame. I think that Granholm has done what she could to improve things, but obviously more needs to be done. I do not support DeVos because I do not believe the traditional GOP platform of tax cuts, tort immunity, etc. really spurs much development. This belief was confirmed by the director of the Citizens Research Council on his recent appearance on Off the Record with Tim Skubick. (I cannot remember his name, but he was speaking specifically about the SBT repeal) This platform by the GOP simply rewards big business, the insurance and pharmaceutical industries for campaign contributions at the expense of individuals, who don't have the money to pool into a PAC to support candidates who look out for their interests. (See the recent article on the News on pharmaceutical immunity). Again, we have not realized any reduction in the price of drugs, nor have any pharmaceutical companies been knocking down Michigan's doors to locate here. However, Merck has essentially gotten away with murder in the State of Michigan. (Why would average people move to a state that allows businesses get away with murder?) I think that a moderate approach, that takes into account each party's philosophies, would be best to address Michigan's current economic crisis. The long-term solution, I think we can all agree on, is that we MUST place a premium on education. We currently provide state scholarship money to students, who then take their degrees and relocate to other states. We practice the act of social promotion. The recent increasing and standardization of high school requirements is a step in the right direction, and this was accomplished with overhwelming bi-partisanship. Hopefully, we will be able to see this level of cooperation after the election. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 661 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"I do not support DeVos because I do not believe the traditional GOP platform of tax cuts, tort immunity, etc. really spurs much development." Well, Ron, being an attorney yourself might color your opinions on tort reform. Besides, her contributions from attorneys are Granholm's #1 funding source ahead of #2--the public-sector unions. I suppose you believe that government employees and teachers are continually underpaid, regardless of what their actual salaries are? In addition, why are there so many schools, teachers, and government employees? Their numbers are way out of line for the size of the population, which itself is becoming more unskilled and uneducated. Mandating higher education standards won't work because they will not be enforced when a high percentage of "students" simply refuse to go along, as is presently the situation now. Especially in Detroit. Even if Detroit doubled its number of high school graduates would still place Detroit considerably below the national average graduation rate, which, at around 73 to 76% itself, is not high. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on May 12, 2006) | ||
Toledolaw05 Member Username: Toledolaw05 Post Number: 11 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 72.240.58.198 |
"Hopefully, we will be able to see this level of cooperation after the election." Why do we have to wait and give her a second try - she had 4 years and didn't get anything done through cross isle cooperation "We currently provide state scholarship money to students, who then take their degrees and relocate to other states." - and this is bad how - aren't you supposed to go where the situation is best for your family. Maybe if MI got its act together students would come here upon graduation. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 114 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.93.105 |
Livernois, Being an attorney does not color my opinion regarding tort reform, as I initially decided to become an attorney to fight for the little guy, so my bias in favor of individuals precedes my admission to the bar. I wholeheartedly agree that there are unscrupulous attorneys who file frivolous suits, which give those of us with integrity a bad name. With respect to the pharmaceutical immunity bill, I do not see any economic benefit, nor justice, in allowing a company to get away with murder by obtaining FDA approval for their products fraudulently, as was the case with Merck. In fact, I don't believe this bill has created one pharmaceutical job in Michigan, nor have we realized a reduction in the cost of drugs in Michigan. This bill has simply resulted in increased profits for the pharmaceutical industry for their Michigan sales. You do raise a good point regarding trial lawyers contributions to Demcorats. The GOP knows that most trial attorneys overwhelmingly support the Democratic party, and that is the only reason Republicans are so gung-ho in support of tort reform, which does not result any benefits to the insurance industry. This is so because insurance defense attorneys simply drag cases out to the eve of trial, as they bill on an hourly basis, to only settle approximately 90% of the time. What it does, in theory, is reduce the amount of money trial lawyers have to contribute to the Dems. It is all political, and the little guy suffers. I would tend to agree with you that the bureacracy is little heavy, but I also know that the state is also an employer just as GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. are. If we were to have a mass laying off of state employees, what would happen to our unemployment rate then? (20%) What is a realistic answer; and not "let them move to where the jobs are," which the typical response. Then, not only would Detroit be losing population, but so would the entire state, and we would be left to deal with the repurcussions of that. In terms of the education bill, the bill raises secondary education standards, not higher education. This is certainly a step in the right direction. We must fundamentally change the way we view education. However, there is nothing wrong with a person who is able to earn a livable wage without college; it is simply not for everyone. Why ostracize those who can do that? Electricians, plumbers and others in the skilled trades earn very good livings without college educations. If they provide a service that people will pay for, why fault them for that? I do agree that we have problems with the schools, however, I do know that if we expct more of children, they will do more. We have issues with parental involvment, poor home training, etc., but these issues cannot be addressed in isolation. Any education policy must be wholistic in nature, and address all of the issues which result in underachieving youth. Toledolaw, You indicate that we should not give Granholm another four years because she wasn't able to accomplish anything with this cross-aisle cooperation. The problem with that argument is that this was the first instance of that cooperation on any legislation of substance. If you want to fault someone, fault the Republican controlled legislature, who has the reponsibility of passing legislation and presenting it to the Governor for final passage. The Republicans have controlled the Legislature, the courts, the Sec. State, and the AG's office for the last four years; add in the Governor's office for the 12 years preceding that. As I stated before, the problems Michigan is facing have been developing over the majority of the last 30 years; I just accounted for the last 16 of those years where the Republicans controlled virtually the entire state. Who is really to blame? With respect to the scholarship issue, no one is faulting anyone who leaves the state in search of a better life for their family. But I do fault the state for paying for someone's education that is being used to benefit other states. As a hypothetical employer, would you want to pay for your employees to learn a skill, and then use that skill to benefit one of your competitors? Why shouldn't I want to realize a return on my investment in our young people's future? I advocate as part of my platform taking that money curently earmarked for scholarships, and putting it on the back end to subsidize student loan repayments for graduates who will stay in certain underserved communties in Michigan. This benefits us all in higher income taxes. If someone wishes to get an education in Michigan, and then wants to move to another state, let that other state pay for that benefit, not me. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 664 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Ron: Just two points for now. [I'm taking a break while doing some pro bono, volunteer technical-editing for the OpenOffice user guides this weekend.] "If we were to have a mass laying off of state employees, what would happen to our unemployment rate then? (20%) What is a realistic answer; and not "let them move to where the jobs are," which the typical response. Then, not only would Detroit be losing population, but so would the entire state, and we would be left to deal with the repurcussions of that." So, civil-serpent employees are the US equivalent of India's sacred cows. The private sector must terminate workers for various reasons, whereas the various levels of government must take their employees' unemployment status into consideration before firing any of them. What utter nonsense! I suppose you favor the stranglehold that the entrenched Detroit city employees have over the city's finances. Reminds me of a tale I heard while a state employee (electrical engineer) myself in Wisconsin during the 1970s... A worker put in his thirty years in the private sector and afterwards went to his eternal reward and final resting place. He got a job with the state. "I do agree that we have problems with the schools, however, I do know that if we expct more of children, they will do more. We have issues with parental involvment, poor home training, etc., but these issues cannot be addressed in isolation. Any education policy must be wholistic in nature, and address all of the issues which result in underachieving youth." BTW, "expect" are "holistic" are better orthographically, but I get careless myself. I hope that anything you propose as a prospective legislator for remedying education wouldn't be throwing more and more money down rat holes (or is it wholes? Sorry, couldn't resist that.) As long as schools are viewed as an extension of day-care and getting the kids out of the house, don't be surprised when they do not learn very much. Michigan is a bottom-feeder state when it comes to public education while being one of the most expensive per pupil. The solution does not involve money but a better application of the overly generous, often wasted funding already in place. Milwaukee had its technical high schools in place for eons as did Detroit. So don't come across as thinking that providing education for something other than academic (college-prep) curricula is something new. Parents should parent better, teachers should teach better, administrators should really be needed for whatever it is they are paid to do, and students should put in a few honest days' work once in a while. (Message edited by livernoisyard on May 12, 2006) | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 738 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
Livernois, I like your way of thinking! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3697 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.167.182.114 |
Gambling man, if you're really looking to keep religion out of government and vice-versa, than you can't even be serious about giving DeVos the chance to lead. That's just ridiculous. I realize that people vote for candidates for numerous issues, but if you're trying to keep church and state separate as possible, than DeVos is not your choice. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 666 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Lmich: What if the "Reverend" Jesse Jackson were running? Could you possibly vote for such a shake-down artist as him, even though he's so religious? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3700 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.167.182.114 |
No, but thanks for assumming...again. I'm really disappointed to see that the Michigan GOP could only dig up DeVos as their best candidate. I'd vote for Engler before I'd vote for DeVos. (Message edited by lmichigan on May 12, 2006) | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 411 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.136.150.132 |
Liberals make me sick. DeVos for Governor and if you don't like it, leave Michigan. What's wrong with a man being extremely wealthy? What's wrong with a man having a father that was hard working and made a very successful business? What's wrong with a man participating in and being very successful in a global economy? What's wrong with a man having God as the head of their life? I truly believe that DeVos is going to do very well in Detroit when all is said and done. If the black spiritual community in Detroit, which is extremely large, votes based on their faith in God, DeVos can win Detroit. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3701 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.167.182.114 |
Very mature and insightful. | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 413 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.136.150.132 |
Thank you. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1638 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 69.212.227.187 |
Absolutely nothing. However, there's a lot wrong with someone running for Govenor; delivering nothing more than TV ads and vague promises.
There's a big difference between voting on one's faith in God and voting on one's faith in TV sound bites. If you believe in TV sound bites, vote for DeVos. Otherwise, Granholm is still our best option. | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 415 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.136.150.132 |
There's also a big difference between voting for person's record and voting one's so-called pretty face. If you believe in a so-called pretty face, vote for Granholm. Otherwise, DeVos is the right person to lead Michigan. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 969 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
There is nothing wrong with someone being a successful business. The problem people have with DeVos is he and his father (and the Van Andels), made their money by a get rich quick pyramid scheme, which ran out of people to fall for their trap in this country, so they had to expand to another country (China). The other problem people have is that he has given no answers on pretty much anything. Notice there is not a lot of defense for Granholm, but the fact DeVos has not really given any answers besides saying he has them, is not enough reason to vote for him. We only have to go off of the crazy responses from his dad and wife. We have yet to find out if Dick Jr holds the same beliefs, but until he starts giving more answers, we can only assume he holds the same wacky beliefs about public education, welfare, etc as his dad and wife. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 667 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Are you still upset, Bob, that DeVos hasn't responded to your email? You would never vote for him in the first place, so why are you concerned? I have heard complaints that Granholm's handlers are not overly responsive to hostile emails either. However, if true, it's probably OK for her stonewalling, right? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3702 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.167.182.114 |
Morena, I was being sarcastic as all hell. DeVos has about as much charisma as a cucumber, and the substance of Paris Hilton. "That's hot." I think not. Sorry, but simply being a big businessman running a slew of commercials doesn't make you deserving of the governorship. Granholm would have had to seriously mess up for me to give my vote to DeVos, who is, IMO, probably the worst Republican candidates the Michigan GOP have to offer. | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 417 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.136.150.132 |
And being a poor, first in my family to go to college, Harvard law school graduate with a so-called pretty face definitely proves that: A.) it doesn't translate into effective leadership. B.) it doesn't make you deserving of governorship either. Granholm should've pursued acting instead of leadership. Maybe she could've landed the Commander in Chief sitcom drama and done better at pretending to be a leader! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3705 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.167.182.114 |
Who said that it does? Too bad you further have to show your true colors with a sexist stab at the end. (Message edited by lmichigan on May 13, 2006) | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 115 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.233 |
Livernois, I actually think that we may be closer to agreement than you think when it comes to education policy. I do not necessarily believe that throwing money at a problem solves it. I do believe that a wholistic (defined as alt. sp. of holisitic in the Websters New World Dictionary, College Edition (c) 2001) approach is appropriate in dealing with the issue. We need to deal with the separate issues that affect a child's ability to learn that which we are trying to teach them. It is vital to our mutual survival. Additionally, while throwing money at this problem may not be the answer, it certainly does help. We can address some of the issues in the wholistic (holistic) approach by addressing the issues of health care, crime, social services, etc. by providing more funding for it; provided that it is spent wisely. Additionally, I have many friends who believe that it is a waste of time for them to excel in school if there are no jobs for them when they finish. Despite the wisdom in this approach, it is a reality we should deal with. I also agree that parents need to do more when it comes to promoting education. In terms of state employees, I think that the government should be a little bit more aware of the effect of a mass layoff than the private sector. For-profit corporation boards and executives have a fiduciary duty to ensure that the corporation makes as much profit as possible. The public sector has no such duty to any perceived shareholders, other than the public. However, it is realistic that a mass layoff of public sector employees would create more of a problem than keeping them employed. Your comparison is apples and oranges, as the private sector is under a much more stringent duty (the fiduciary duty of a private sector, for-profit corporation consists of both a duty of loyalty and care) than the public sector to ensure profits. The public sector traditionally is not concerned with a profit, therefore, there is not the vital need to automatically layoff when times get bad. And for the record, the public sector has been trimmed considerably through normal attrition, with many more state employees being laid off based upon seniority, so no, public sector employees are not, and should not, be immune to market forces. Finally, Morena, there is nothing wrong with being extremely rich, etc. except when you try to take credit for being a "jobs creator," when you didn't even create your own job. You didn't get your job based upon your credentials, experience, ability, etc. You got your job because your daddy gave it to you. I would much rather have someone lead the state who knows what it is to struggle. (i.e the first generation college student, who had the wherewithal to get into Harvard Law School). Additionally Morena, there is nothing wrong with a man having God as the head of his life. I do. The problem is when he tries to force his God on others, as the Republicans consistently attempt to do. That is the problem. What if we were an Islamic society, and lived under Sharia (sic?) law. Would it be ok to have God as the head of our Governor's life if his/her God wasn't your God? That is the most fundamental reason why we have the separation of church and state. (Again, I say this as a Christian man, who has been perceived to be of the fundamentalist thread). BTW Livernois, my last post was entirely drafted, but my computer froze which caused me to have to re-draft it. This explains the typos, etc. in my last post. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3708 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.167.182.114 |
Thanks for your input, Ron. It's more level-headed and fair than most of us (including myself) could add, at the moment. | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 17 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 24.192.166.67 |
Lmichigan Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 7:19 pm: QUOTE: Gambling man, if you're really looking to keep religion out of government and vice-versa, than you can't even be serious about giving DeVos the chance to lead. I'd settle for a business oriented leader right now, I think the religion thing can wait until the soup kitchens close. Besides I didn't see Mr. Kilpatrick, or Jennifer exactly turning their backs on the pro-democrat voices spewing from the religious pulpits. | ||
Erichp77 Member Username: Erichp77 Post Number: 172 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.154.55.196 |
-"Morena, I was being sarcastic as all hell. DeVos has about as much charisma as a cucumber, and the substance of Paris Hilton." LOL, yeah! Paris Hilton for Michigan Governor! I can hear it now....."Let them eat cake!". | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 668 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Ron: Editors tend to use Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate, which does not list wholistic as a variant, whereas the M-W Online and Unabridged versions do. Alternate spellings enter into English usually through the back door. First by substandard usage; afterwards, as an alternate (or variant) once a critical mass of ignorance has developed. And then there are the eggcorns that many posters here use in their lexicons. Some recently applied "acorns" in this forum were "shoe-in" and "reign in" for "shoo-in" and "rein in," respectively. Although not used yet in this forum, "Cadillac converter" must be a classic eggcorn. You were alluding to voting for Granholm over DeVos due to her Harvardness. According to that reasoning, one might ask, "What would Granholm (or DeVos) do?" with regard to "holistic." In all fairness, DeVos incorrectly used "less" over the grammatically correct "fewer" in his town meeting with Granholm a while back... (Message edited by LivernoisYard on May 13, 2006) | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 116 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.229 |
You say potayto, I say potawto  In all seriousness, thanks for pointing out the incorrect usage; it has never been one of those words I write very frequently. Also, didn't know that about Merriam Websters. When I purchased my dictionary, I think it was the cheapest one of decent quality. (or should I say descent quality ) Sometimes I even resort to the most trusted source, the spellcheck on MSWord. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 117 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.229 |
BTW, thanks LMich. I believe that most issues of public concern, whether they be issues of policy, or issues of candidates, are very rarely black and white, but more often shades of gray. (Or should I say grey)(I'm on a roll now)(Or should I say role) (Ok, ok I'll leave it alone) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 671 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I have the Merriam search engine on the address toolbar on my Firefox browser, along with some twenty others. There's also the Free dictionary engine too on it. I'm not certain which type of Merriam's the search engine uses (probably the unabridged) because the 11th Collegiate doesn't seem to have "wholistic." | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 970 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Livernoisyard, as hard as this is to believe, I actually did not write the DeVos campaign a hostile e-mail. I actually a nice one just asking for some answers on his policies, how he will treat Metro Detroit, etc. To be honest with you, I am not entirely impressed by either candidate. That is one big thing that DeVos is going to have to answer is how he is going to keep from pushing his religious beliefs on others. Which is what his father does, and his wife for that manner. Another thing he is going to have to own up to are his families comments about public schools. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 672 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Being a (small 'l') libertarian, I'm accustomed to voting (and I do) for the lesser of evils. Unfortunately, that's usually all that's available to me. I try to do my best when working and not to expect it from too many others. Although, we can wish... | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2544 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 70.141.77.179 |
LMich, are you seriously implying that Granholm has charisma? Her condescending tone, lame expressions, and contrived body language really does it for you, huh? Ron, could it equally be said that (some) Democrats/liberals/secularists /etc. consistently try to force God out of our lives? Bob, you (as well as others) continue to misuse the term "Pyramid scheme". An actual product is not involved in pyramid schemes. | ||
Ilovedetroit Member Username: Ilovedetroit Post Number: 2274 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.40.230.17 |
Metro - What a surprise you supported Lord Voldemoort (Hendrix) and now you are talking up W Bush Jr (DeVos)...why should I not be surprised! | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2545 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 70.141.77.179 |
"Ilovedetroit" - what a surprise? Are you claiming to be a man or a woman today? Black or White? Or Black, White, and Native American? Or not identifying with a particular race? Detroit resident? Or Ferndale/Pleasant Ridge? Or African Missionary? Hendrix supporter turned McPhail turned Kilpatrick? Or never supported Hendrix? Six-figure corporate job or middle class/creative class type? Hetrosexual or homosexual? Attended an event or had friends at an event? Volunteer or campaign insider? What's it going to be today? | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 118 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.93.105 |
Metrodetguy, I think that extremism of any color is still extreme, and should be avoided at all cost. I agree with many on this forum re: the two party political system, which results in the extreme factions of each party having inordinate influence in each of the parties. I am not an expert in the political systems of other countries, but my understanding of those with multiple political parties is that the legislative branch is typically run by loosely knit factions, which often break up over very minor differences of opinion. I wonder if that would work in the US, or be beneficial? | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 595 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.212.169.194 |
Ron had the typo of "expct" instead of "expect" and Livernoisyard returned a criticism using the typo of "are" instead of "and." Tsk tsk. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 119 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.231 |
Thanks for having my back. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 676 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I'm slashing my wrists. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 121 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.229 |
The one thing I love about this forum is everyone's sense of humor. Gotta love it. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1639 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.236.180.119 |
Morena:
Umm... I'm confused. Who is it that you think is talking about voting for someone's "pretty face"?
And what is DeVos' plan for Michigan, again? | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1640 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.236.180.119 |
Sad fact of the matter is, Paris Hilton would be a huge improvement over our choices for governor at the moment. In fact, I'm half-way tempted to start a grass-roots campaign to draft Paris Hilton for governor; simply as a protest to our choice between DeVos and Granholm. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 678 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Tell her to bring along some of her tapes. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1642 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.236.180.119 |
You gotta admit, Paris Hilton would make for much more interesting TV commericials. And, unlike DeVos, she wouldn't be so reluctant to actually make her TV commericials in Michigan. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1643 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.236.180.119 |
Okay - I just checked - ParisHiltonForGovernor.com is an available for domain. The fact that, with a little bit of coaching, we could transform Paris Hilton into the most intelligent, viable candidate to run for Governor of Michigan in over a decade both scares me and excites me at the same time. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 190 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.229.90.230 |
It would take more than a little coaching. She forgot the name of her own video game: http://news.yahoo.com/s/eo/200 60512/en_celeb_eo/19019 | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3710 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.167.135.133 |
Hell, if California can have that cyborg "The Governator" as their governor, why can't we have Paris "That's Hot" Hilton? Metro, on Granholms very worst day she still has more charisma than DeVos, who constantly looks as if he's in an unblinking, vegetative state. And, I'm even being kind to Granholm, who I'll concede is no Bill Clinton when it comes to charisma. | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 8 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 69.246.123.118 |
I'm not surprised that DeVos is leading in the polls. Like nearly all Repugnants he has millions to lie with. And the average voter appears to be easily impressed with lies. One can only hope that after 6 years of nonstop lying from the White House, voters will start asking questions of the Repugs who have controlled our state legislature. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 125 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.93.100 |
Firejerryo reports that DeVos is offering up to $25K to black clergy who will set up a meeting for DeVos with other black clergy. Makes me think of the $25K offered to families of suicide bombers. He is making a concerted effort to pull votes from Granholm's base. Does anyone know about the 40+ year period when the Dems ran Conress, during which the GOP dumped money into conservative think tanks in an effort to revise their platform to attract non-traditional republican voters? Hence, we have school vouchers, tort reform, the entire religion-based issues platform (abortion, gay marriage), etc. Some of these issues are pushed in an effort to dry up the political contributions to the Dems, i.e. tort reform and trial lawyers, public education and teachers unions, etc. But, I can't help to believe that the religious issues are pushed in an attempt to pull Black votes from the Dems. I found this interesting, but never really took any time to research it. And it is a sound political strategy, particularly when you take into account the cost of running political campaigns today. Anyone know if this is true? | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 989 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Here is DeVos trying to give details. Is it possible he is so pro-business that he will kill any standard of living in Michigan. I just wonder if he is so far on the other side that he cares about what is best for business and not what is best for the people who live here. Yes, we need jobs, but at what cost? http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060517/NEW S11/60517010 | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 145 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.212.45.70 |
Take a look at my most recent post on my campaign blog. http://liscombe4staterep.blogs pot.com/2006/05/dont-forget-mi chigan-republicans.html I'm sure some will get a kick out of it, others won't. Ron | ||
Toledolaw05 Member Username: Toledolaw05 Post Number: 14 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 72.240.58.198 |
"Like nearly all Repugnants he has millions to lie with" Are you saying demoncrats are lazy poor bums without millions - sounds like sour grapes | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3740 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.197.28.31 |
Ron, you make a very good point in pointing out how long Republicans have been in controll of state government. If anything, the fingers all point back at them for the poor state of Michigan (social, economic, and otherwise. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 713 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Over half of the state's population reside in tri-county Detroit. When Metro Detroit falters due to its over-concentration of its automotive sector, it's difficult for the rest of the state to tilt the state's economy in order to compensate. In addition, the funding from taxpayers in the remaining counties toward Wayne County literally "robs" them. Ever wonder why Detroiters are not especially liked throughout the state? | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2552 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.10.23.41 |
Sorry LMich but I couldn't disagree more. Based on their respective personality characteristics, if you didn't know which one is the supposed "out of touch multi-millionaire", Granholm's condescending tone, lame expressions, and contrived body language would certainly typecast her in the role. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 146 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.212.71.231 |
Thanks Lmich. It's easy to take credit; hard to take responsibility. Livernois, #1: The choices of the "powers that be" regarding the State's dependence on the auto industry is hardly the workings of average Detroiters. It is, in fact, the workings of the "ruling class" (I use that term loosely, referring to those in decision-making positions). Therefore, the rest of the state should be upset with those business leaders and power brokers who make policy, not average, working Detroiters. #2: your point about the metro-Detroit area encompassing 1/2 of the state's population does not support your conclusion that the rest of the taxpayers (I assume you mean outstate residents) are being "robbed" of their tax dollars. If 1/2 of the state's population lives in the Wayne County area, then we, in theory at least, provide 1/2 of the state's budget. In fact, I belive that we, as Detroiters, don't realize a $1 for $1 return on the taxes we pay, particularly with respect to the federal government. How are they being robbed? We are the ones being robbed. I understand that you may be speaking of state tax dollars specifically, but I find it very hard to believe that most counties do not realize some parity with respect to their dollar paid in taxes being returned as a dollar paid in services. Think about it: If one road costs $50,000,000 to build, and only 10,000 people use it, that equates to $5,000 dollars per person. If that same road services 100,000 people, that's $500 per person. Who is being "robbed?" However, even if they don't realize any such parity, why would they complain when the auto companies, born and bred in DETROIT, have driven the economy of the STATE for the last 100 years. Just because that industry is faltering now does not mean it is acceptable, moral, or even grateful to imply that the STATE'S reliance (read: not JUST DETROIT'S) on the auto industry was ill-deserved. The auto industry MADE Michigan. Show your respect for this industry that, most likely, provided your personal income, either directly or indirectly. If you have evidence to the contrary (regarding tax parity in MI) I would like to review it, as I will have to make decisions based on this once elected. Ron | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 990 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Was anybody listening to NPR today and heard the clips they played of DeVos talking to MI State Medical Society, he sounded like a bumbling idiot trying to explain why more jobs will fix our economy, and that will solve getting people healthcare. I'm sorry but he sounded like he does not really have a plan, at least not anything he can actually articulate to share with us. So we have Granholm's almost like Hillary Clinton public speaking (that's not a compliment), or DeVos I can't speak in public and don't really have a plan. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 147 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.212.71.231 |
Bob, Not to disrespect the guy, but did DeVos sound like Ross Perot's running mate at the VP debate in 1992? (And I mean, not to disrespect Perot's running mate, who was a decorated war hero) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 991 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
You're correct Ron, I can't remember what his name was, but it was the guy that missed a question because he had his hearing aid turned down. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 714 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Taxpayers are being continually rolled when corruption and inefficiencies exist without abatement, as seems to be the case. Especially in Detroit. Look for the definition of a spendthrift economy in the dictionary and up pops a map of Detroit. Going over one of your previous posts, you essentially stated that the governments should not fire public serpents without taking their unemployment into consideration. That's nuts! As a prospective legislator, you already tipped your hand as to how you consider the public sector. Essentially, you would be another liberal, er... progressive, er... socialist. Chicago has been known for decades as a city that works. How might Detroit compare? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3743 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.197.28.31 |
I can't wait to see DeVos in action, or should I say inaction, when the debates come around. That's with the expectation that he will allow any debates in the first place. lol He's already spending his monetary capital. Now, DeVos, show me the real money: your intellectual, problem-solving capital. Livernois, because being a liberal, progressive, or socialist is such a horrible thing, right? I love how the right has painted the left into a corner and turned their label into a slur, and the liberals not do anything about it. Maybe they don't deserve anything. BTW, has anyone seen DeVos' most recent commercial. He pretty much states that he had the chance to move his company out of state, but didn't so vote for me. I laughed out loud. What does he want? A vote, a pat on the back?! Ha! And, you want to talk condescenion, Metrodetguy? (Message edited by lmichigan on May 17, 2006) | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 148 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.212.21.223 |
That's the one Bob. Livernois, Your remembrance of my statement on the impact of a mass laying off of public employees highlights the biggest difference between Republicans and Democrats. When analyzing public policy, Republicans always think about "What is best for me?" Democrats always think about "What is best for us?" A mass laying off would be a tragedy for the individual employees laid off (no matter if in the public sector or private), but a mass laying off would have an equally detrimental effect on ALL OF US as a STATE. Republicans say "Why should that state employee be immune to the much-vaunted 'market' when I am not?" Never mind the facts that (1) conservatives CHOOSE to live by free market principles (see less regulation), and wish to FORCE that free market philosophy on everyone else, and (2) as I stated in that same post, the public sector is not, and should not, be concerned with "profit margins," and therefore should not automatically lay off employees if revenue go down. If it reaches a point where expenditures are exceeding revenues, then lay off. And speaking of corruption and inefficiencies, you need look no further to find the most apt examples of corruption and inefficiency than the GOP. Think Duke Cunningham, the bridge to nowhere in AL, and the fact that Baby Bush is the first President since Jefferson not to veto any bill. Ron And this is not to say that Democrats think they know what's best for everyone, we just think about the effects of our decisions on others before we make them. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 715 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
DeVos and practically any other conservatives get bashed constantly by a number on this forum, yet some (most?) of these same individuals seem to be quite ultra-sensitive themselves--a known radiclib characteristic which dates back to antiquity. I have nothing against Ron for playing to his left-wing constituency. He surely couldn't get elected if he didn't. And he's a big boy and can easily fend for himself. I'd do the same if I had his political bent. But not all those living in Wayne County or Detroit think that way. That's why DeVos will get even some Detroiters to vote for him, regardless of any whining from his opponents. JFK put up with much of that same voodoo Catholic BS until he won the West Virginian Democrat primary in 1960. I feel that DeVos has already won over the Reagan Democrats, Catholics or not. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 149 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.212.21.223 |
Livernois, It's a fun debate, isn't it? I truly enjoy this stuff. Re: the Reagan Democrats, I think Chris Matthews captured that phenomenon the best: When times are good, middle of the road people vote Republican because they hope they'll be the next rich family. When times are bad, they vote Democrat, because they're afraid they'll be the next poor family. I wouldn't be so sure about DeVos when people find out what his plan actually is............................ .. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 150 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.212.21.223 |
all the periods at the end of my last post mean ........... HE HAS NO PLAN!!!! | ||
Morena Member Username: Morena Post Number: 420 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.136.150.132 |
DeVos has already shocked Granholm in their initial face to face encounter during the Freedom Weekend debate hosted by the NAACP. He did exceptionally well in an environment that was clearly set-up for Granholm. Many folks in attendance quietly shared how well they thought DeVos did that night. You liberals really make laugh when you criticize DeVos for focusing on attracting business and creating jobs in this state. Try telling the 7.2% of Michigan residents that are unemployed and the 15% of Detroiters out of work they don't need jobs! | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 152 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.212.21.223 |
Morena, I have absolutely no problem with anyone who can create jobs, and attract business to the state. My problem is when someone simply says they'll create jobs, but never tell you how. Aren't you the least bit curious to know what DeVos allegedly knows that NO business, financial, political, or social expert has been able to grasp for the last five years? Does he have some sort of economic crystal ball that no one else has? And, if he does have all the answers, why hasn't he shared some of the information before he decided to run for office? And re: the NAACP dinner, it was only set up in favor of Granholm because NAACP members know what the GOP has in mind if they win this election. I don't think any shock occurred at the event. In fact, one of the exchanges, dealing with MCRI, went something like this (and I paraphrase): DeVos: I OPPOSE the MCRI. Granholm: So does that mean that you SUPPORT affirmative action? DeVos: Umm, umm, well, I guess, umm, umm, I need to know, umm, umm, how you define affirmative action. That's why the event was "set up" for Granholm. | ||
Toledolaw05 Member Username: Toledolaw05 Post Number: 15 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 72.240.58.198 |
Thanks Jennifer - another reason to keep you in office - way to keep Michigan humming along "Michigan's job situation isn't expected to get any better in the near future" "April's four-tenths of a percentage point gain puts Michigan's jobless rate 2.5 points above the U.S. rate, and marked the 56th consecutive month that Michigan surpassed the nation in unemployment "Michigan is really looking into a disaster area," said Patrick Anderson, a Lansing-based economist and founder of the Anderson Economic Group. "That's a very serious gap between Michigan and the rest of the United States. Anything above 1.5 (percentage) points is dangerous."" http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20060518/BIZ/6 05180406/1001 | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1662 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.255.240.158 |
Hey Toledolaw05, I forget, what's DeVos' plan for Michigan's economy again? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4146 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.173.154 |
Fnemecek, DeVos plan for the Michigan Ecomony is he's going to deficit spend over 100 to 300 million dollars a year in order to keep jobs here in Michigan. In a result leaving Michigan into budget shortfall of up to 2 billion debt in the state national debt. He would save Detroit's ecomony for last and use Grand Rapids as a ecomonic experiment for next BOOMTOWN city for the 21st Century. It would be a VERY terrible ideal to have DeVos as Governor for Michigan. I don't a want a guy that can do Engler's work. | ||
Toledolaw05 Member Username: Toledolaw05 Post Number: 16 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 72.240.58.198 |
Danny - that is why we need to keep Jennifer Job Creator Gramholm in charge - I wouldn't want MI to lose its streak of 56 consecutive months that Michigan surpassed the nation in unemployment rates. Maybe with 4 more years of Jennifer in office we can hit 100 months straight. I am sure her plan of sending jobs out of the state and out the country will get us there. So you say the Devos plan or lack thereof sucks - maybe so, but that is why we need Jennifer in office. She has a plan to lose more jobs and that is what we need in MI | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2416 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Great point, Toledo - | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4150 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.173.154 |
Toledolaw05, Keeping Granholm in office would keep the Michigan budget deficit down to 700 million dollars and decrease gov't spending on nonsence materials. and used gov't spending to a minimum to improve our roads and HWY's and Freeways. Increase education to all public and charter schools by getting the students to learn the academic requirements in math, social sciences and any foreign languages and she's doing a excelling job convincing foreign automakers to bring their jobs here to Michigan. Granholm must stay in office. "4 MORE MORE YEARS." | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4151 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.173.154 |
Granholm came into office to clean up Engler's mess. And now she is putting jobs into her agenda until the election year. TAKE THAT DEVOS!! | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1664 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.255.240.158 |
Toledolaw05: Almost all of the jobs lost in Michigan during her tenure have been tied to the auto industry. Of the umpteen analysts who have examined the American auto industry and its decline, none of them have pointed to the Granholm Administration as even being a contributing cause in it's problems. Ergo, dumping all of the responsiblity for it on her doesn't make any sense. BTW - you still didn't answer my question. What is DeVos' plan for improving things? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4152 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.173.154 |
You folks come on DON'T BLAME YOUR LEADERS FOR NOT BRING THE JOBS INTO MICHIGAN. They just doing their best to see what's good or bad for society. Some of them may be corrupt, but some of them still have a heart. Especially Granholm. The People of Michigam city by city, township by township MUST go out to the world and bring jobs into Michigan. Right now!!! | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 301 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.145.5 |
Whatever plans Devos has it hardly makes sense to release everything he's got now when hardly anyone is paying attention to the campaign. Isn't the unofficial start of fall elections after Memorial day weekend? With all the money that the state Republican party has and the money Deovs has they obviously have some pretty intelligent people advising them on how to run a winning campaign. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1665 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.255.240.158 |
Rjk: DeVos announced his candidacy for governor almost a year ago. That is plenty a time for him to put together a plan. Yes, the traditional start date for non-presidential elections is Memorial Day weekend. However, when DeVos started so early it creates a desire for folks to know his plan. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2423 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Kinda like asking Ho Dean about what the Dems plan(s) is/are for the country - no need to let folks know too early. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 1666 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.255.240.158 |
Karl: Bad analogy, on that one. Each Democratic candidate has his or her own vision. Some of them are good. Some of them suck. Look at the candidate and not the party. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2424 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
My only point is this: Whether state or federal, one party's image might be slightly more unified in its possible solutions than the other, and voters sometimes respond to that. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 153 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 70.212.59.212 |
Toledo, 56 months of Michigan's unemployment rate above the national average. Hmmnn, that would equal 4.67 years. Granholm took office in 2003, about 3 years ago. What party failed this state when the GOP ruled virtually the entire state government of MI with an iron fist since at least 2004? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4160 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.173.154 |
Once again Here is our ecomony in Michigan:  Our state ecomony is P.U! Our economy is experiencing a mini recession and it's NOT gaining into its peak, while the some states are increasing REAL GDP growth. As for right now our unemployment rate is 6.9% THAT'S BAD!!!  According to the Comsuption Function on this graph, our state is in its early stages of Spring Recession, by this Summer, there are going to be more kids hitting the work force, but however it move the Comuption Function just about 5 points leftward.  Granholm is not taking fiscal policy too seriously. However when she became governor, the #1 list within her political agenda is to clean up Engler's mess of the state's $900 Million debt which she did. During her reign the state deficit spending is not on jobs and education from the lottery system, but to improve roads. So far the state's legislative fiscal policy. They had reduced deficit spending by $200 Million dollars.  Due to lack of jobs in Michigan, the installment of the small business tax, and outsources jobs to China. The states Consumption Function went downward! Prices went up and comsuption went down. That really slow down our GDP growth.  7 years ago, our economy is normal. The Michigan's unemployement rate was 4% until 9/11. After the great winter recession of 2001- 2002 our ecomony experience phenominal GDP growth and Michigan was in the ecomonic bandwagon until Engler took fiscal policy and deficit spending too much. When Granholm came in, than comes the recession it effected Detroit's unemployment rate went from 11% in 2001 to 14% in 2006. Our state economy took a NOSE DIVE from classical economy to a Keynesial economy. This is time when the Goverment MUST step in and increase deficit spending for jobs, but Granholm wasn't thinking about that. So is so busy trying to figure out how to stop Engler's mess for piling up. I was wondering that did Engler set a FISCAL TRAP for Granholm so that a Republican savior, something like "Dick DeVos" came down to save Michigan from the democrats? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3750 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Danny, are you really as mentally unstable as you portray yourself on this forum, or is it some masterful act? You really make it hard to have a competent debate with the other side. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4164 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.173.245 |
Lmichigan, Looks like you haven't took any global economic class at all. Politicians rely on ecomony to determine where the workforce is heading. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3754 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Astounding. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2555 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.221.64.70 |
Lmich, likewise, how is being patriotic, a conservative, a capitalist, or a moderate such a bad thing? And how can it be argued that "it's Engler's fault" one minute, "it's Bush's fault" the next minute, and then "Granholm can't control these factors" the next minute. Again, how can Granholm blame external factors beyond a governor's control, and/or Engler, and/or the Republican Legislature one minute, and the next minute claim that she has a plan (not shown into her fourth year)? Condescending indeed. | ||
Rberlin Member Username: Rberlin Post Number: 538 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 75.7.195.7 |
*disclaimer - I'm a nobody know nothing, so feel free to ignore me. Michigan has been growing in all areas of our economy except manufacturing and government. Michigan is famous for our huge manufacturing base, and infamous for our large and relatively ineffective government. There is nothing Granholm can do about the declining domestic auto industry or the other manufacturing jobs this country is hemorrhaging. Maybe DeVos can, but I kind of doubt it since, no matter how he tries to say other wise, his company went China as fast as any other. Granholm has brought jobs to this state, high paying skilled jobs that you can directly link to her efforts over seas, many more than DeVos and Co. ever have. Unless of course you count the hoards of MLM zombies, but then we want to talk about jobs that actually make money. Now she could stop the government layoffs and run this state into Engler sized debt by hiring tons more state employees. This would ease the state's poor job numbers. But instead she has cut government spending, and reduced taxes, all while absorbing a for mentioned Engler sized deficit. Granted she hasn't done the massive and irresponsible slashing DeVos and LBP have proposed, but then again she wouldn't be allowed to since legally Michigan isn't able to run in constant debt like the Feds can. DeVos says he has a plan to pay for such gigantic cuts, I'd like to see it, but his plan doesn't differ much from the stock Republican mantra that cutting taxes will always result in higher revenues. A belief which has never been proven anywhere at anytime by anyone. I don't feel like taking a risk on a faith based tax code. | ||
The_aram Member Username: The_aram Post Number: 4885 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.41.124.8 |
I was talking to a friend of mine last night, who had an opportunity to meet with DeVos as part of a television interview up at MSU. One of the other people running technical stuff for the interview told DeVos that he was having problems finding a job for after he graduated, and the first thing out of DeVos' mouth was "Well, have you tried Grand Rapids?" Take that for what it's worth, but I fear if DeVos pulls this one off, southeastern Michigan as a whole is screwed. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2444 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
MSU is a shorter drive to Grand Rapids than it is to Detroit, isn't it? Further, what type of job is your friend looking for? Things are happening in and around GR, it would be the most likely place to direct someone, don't you think? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3759 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Aram, it is not surprising he said that, as he is a West Michigan booster, I'm not going to fault the guy for civic or regional pride. With that said, if Michigan politics truly is regional (and it is), than it wouldn't make much sense to give vote your region into second-class status. What was safe about Engler was that he was a from North Central Michigan with no real ties to either Detroit or Grand Rapids (though he sure did manage to ignore Detroit unless he was punishing it). If you're looking soley from a regional perspective, a vote for DeVos in Southeast Michigan would be political suicide. If you though the region was ignored under Engler, and maybe even under Granholm, you ain't seen nothin' yet. On the other end of things, if West Michigan wants more say (as they feel they are greatly underrepresented), they better vote solid red, this year. Metro Grand Rapids is doing BIG things in the healthcare industry, but they are also losing their manufacturing jobs just as fast as any place in Michigan. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 994 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
And at this current moment Granholm is leading DeVos in the polls in the Grand Rapids area. This is because they him and don't want him as governor, this should tell us something. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2475 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Yup - I recall speaking with folks from Arkansas on Labor Day weekend before the Clinton/Bush election. They said "do not vote for Clinton, folks in Arkansas understand the mess that is the Clintons" - it turned out to be true, so perhaps the GR folks are on to something. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 88 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
As a conservative, I will vote for DeVos on the basis that it will end the gridlock that is currently going on in state government and that he seems to have some notion as to how to create a better business environment. Granholm always seemed to be in over her head in my view. Having said that, I am disappointed with the current crop of politicians on all levels of government. The quality of the debate amongst them is pedestrian at best, mostly worn out talking points that were created for media consumption. I have read and participated in debates on this board that are far more illuminating and thought-provoking then what I have seen watching political programming on the networks, cable news and CSPAN. I am coming to the conclusion that neither party is serving their constituents in any way, and government has become mostly a hindrance to progress rather than an enabler of it. On the right, we have RINO's who were elected under the banner of fiscal responsibility and a strong national defense who spend gobs of money and leave our borders wide open, on the left we have people like Levin who claim to be for the working class who vote for NAFTA and increases in the H-1B program which basically are American worker replacement programs. It is all very disheartening and makes me want to disengage from the political discourse and just focus on my own little corner of the world just to retain my sanity. It is obvious our current system has allowed the crap to rise to the top and not the cream. Most of the politicians at the national level have no business being in power because they don’t have either the intellect or knowledge to be making the decisions they are making. Most bills introduced are written by special interest groups or corporations, and the politicians introducing them have been bought and paid for. Neither party seems that serious about reforming this corruption as it has been what keeps them in power. Even if a “Mr. Smith” does get elected he is quickly corrupted by this culture that is embedded in our political environment. The sad thing is we face some enormous challenges that could have a severe impact on this great nation in terms of the war on terror, the environment, the energy supply, immigration, fiscal imbalance, trade and the economy and I see no leadership on either side that is up to the task. They lack both the courage and the ability to tackle any of these issues. We all quarrel over partisan crap as the media ignores the major issues in lieu of reporting on things like the Duke Rape scandal while the politicians get away with incompetence and corruption. I fear for our children as we seem destined to leave them with a country that is far worse than what it has been in the past. Sorry to be a bummer…. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on May 20, 2006) | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2476 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Perfectgentleman, I'd hafta agree. The theory of both parties looks good - reality is far different. The few politicians that speak out are indeed a minority, and are overrun by the process you eloquently describe above. The only hope is to vote your concience and hope that folks elected (who are really peers from amongst us) don't forget their roots and govern the way they promised while in the process of being elected, rather than using the opportunity to attain some sort of royalty class - losing their hearing in the process. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 89 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
Karl, I am coming to the conclusion that the correct number of parties is ZERO. If we have more than 2, then we get people being elected without a plurality like Clinton, unless we go to some sort of run-off election system where the top 2 vote-getters face off. Given the current lack of participation in elections now, this seems unrealistic. I once thought that political parties were needed to force consensus, which is crucial in any republic, but what I am seeing is false consensus, with politicians pandering to a certain position to get elected then abandoning it later on. Once in power, the system favors the incumbent so they get away with it. Maybe term limits do have merit, although they would need to be implemented across the board nationally to work. I don’t think I could every vote for a Democrat, certainly not the current version we have today as the Truman and Kennedy Dems have long since lost control of the party to the fringe like Dean and Pelosi. However, I don’t know that it behooves me to vote for a McCain because it rewards someone who I know is going to sell out and pander to the other side and do stupid shit. Maybe it is better that I stay home and allow these RINO’s to be punished so the next crop will have to be more responsive to the core. The problem with that of course is the incumbency issue again, once a party gains control, they tend to hold it for awhile. Unfortunately the candidates and the political operatives have figured this out and know that people will vote for one side or the other because the consequences of losing COMPLETELY is too much to bear so we hold or nose and vote for idiots who put us in the position we are now... (Message edited by perfectgentleman on May 20, 2006) | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2477 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
PerfectG - completely agree with the exception of staying home. Yes, I see your logic, makes perfect sense. However, I view it as the lesser of 2 evils - and believe me, I know McCain very well. I see hope for the system that wasn't there before, and that is thru the pounding both sides take every day from an ever-increasing (and popular) media. Truman Dems have found they have a voice, tho it sometimes has a distasteful (R) after the speaker's name. Folks can now very carefully select via MP3, TIVO etc exactly whose opinion they want. At the same time or shortly thereafter, they can see firsthand if it is working (case du jour: border security) Folks realize that they can listen to pols blather about walls, fences, etc but NG can be there next week. Next, is NG truly helping, or have their hands been tied? Tune in week after next. News moves much faster, and is continuing to speed up. Wait until the live cams are in place all along the border and we can all watch on the internet I find it fascinating (and hopeful for the cause) that Air America is floundering and may be gone. The supposedly huge shift in values and outlook in this country over the past 50 years may not, in fact, have taken place, at least not to the extent that the GOP has been led to believe. Here is the one main outlet for left talk, and they can't keep it going - and you know that all it takes is listeners - so why have they abandoned this venue? IMO it is because it puts out inaccurate information, and folks want the truth, even if it is bad news. Personally, I will miss AA as it gave me a front-row seat to far-left bombthrowers and allowed immediate arguments to be formulated - easy with simple lies, harder with mis-information, but butt-naked there for the taking nontheless. I'm as frustrated as you, but I'm not ready to toss my vote just yet, and I encourage you not to either. When you can email your solid, original & constructive viewpoint straight to a talkshow host who then reads it live on the air to millions, minds are changed and things begin to happen. So hang in there, let 'em know you're not happy, and give 1-2 concise ideas for change. It's guaranteed to be a bumpy ride ahead, but change is indeed in the wind, and the folks who've been biting their tongue for decades, politely not discussing politics & religion as we've been taught, are bringing some of the left wingnut nonsense to a screeching halt. Down, but far from out. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 995 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
I also must agree, well said PerfectGentleman. (Message edited by bob on May 20, 2006) | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2556 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.144.118.6 |
Bob, conversely at this current moment DeVos is leading Granholm in the polls in Metro Detroit and pulling larger than usual numbers in the City of Detroit. This should also tell us something. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2478 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Bob & PerfectG - one additional thought on the 2-party system, it has been helpful to me: When we play sports, we nearly always form teams, and most often 2. To do otherwise creates chaos. Drafting players, free agency, all feed into the system, but we end up with 2 teams on the field, and one wins. We retreat during & afterwards to the bench, locker room, and offices to try once again. The same with politics - try, try again. Would Bush I have been re-elected were it not for Perot is a recent example. Field the best guy/gal ya can, but light a real fire under 'em on the way out to the game, and instill in them that it ain't gonna be pretty if they don't bring home the prize. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 996 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Yes it does say something, that people in Metro Detroit are unhappy because of the economy and lack of jobs, but also that they don't really know DeVos and how he really is not in the best interests of the state (unless he will finally answer questions and gives us a reason besides I'm not Granholm to vote for him). | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 158 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.227 |
Perfectgentleman, I agree with the majority of what you said. However, I must disagree that the best way to "end the gridlock" is to vote for DeVos. We let the GOP control the governor's office and the legislature during the majority of the 90's, and this was during the time that our current recession was brewing. You see where we are now. The best way to end the gridlock that would actually benefit the state would be to re-elect Granhom, and return the Legislature to the Dems. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2558 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.144.118.6 |
Bob, it also says that people of Metro Detroit know Granholm and don't like what they've seen from her. Likewise, Granholm hasn't answered any questions nor done anything of consequence. The difference is that her inaction took place while she was in office, and not simply a candidate. Again, "it's Bush's fault", "it's Engler's fault", "it's the Republican legislature's fault", "it's the industries fault", etc. isn't going to fly with voters. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 90 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
Good discussion by all folks, sort of renews my faith in meaningful discourse. I know that the no-party system is unrealistic in some sense, we have the Electoral College and all of the rules of governance based on the 2 party system. I guess I was thinking of it in a theoretical sense. I do also appreciate the power of the alternative media and the role of the internet in that. It has helped bring another point of view to the forefront that was not there. Karl, I guess the frustrating thing about it is that the Republicans attained a majority in large part due to the alternative media and conservative ideals and then quickly squandered the opportunity they were given to lead. Bush has been very disappointing, particularly in this second term, and seems destined to leave office with the specter of failure over his presidency. This is due in large part to his abandoning core Conservative values. The irony is that the MSM has painted him as a hard-right Conservative and his failure will taint that position even though his failures were caused by his tendency to abandon his base. So now people like me are in the position of defending a party and a world view that has been bastardized by irresponsible politicians. The amazing thing is we had the left BEAT, they were cooked, and Bush and the RINO’s fucked it all up! So now the new message is that Conservatism is good for the country, just not the brand as practiced by Bush and the moderates like McCain. The amazing thing is the left gets away with advocating open borders with little or no restrictions on illegal immigration and the only ones willing to stop it are a few right-wingers in the Senate and the amazing Tancredo-led guys in the house. The rest of the party is too stupid to take credit for it and come out strong for enforcement, a position that a solid majority in both parties of the general population is for!!!!! I see that shit and it drives my nuts! The other issue is that of fiscal responsibility, which is needed now more than ever. The Republicans have lost all credibility on that issue, which will take years to repair. Even on the economy, the overall situation throughout the country right now is pretty good (except for here) and if a Democrat were in office the press would be lauding how great things are. But the Bush team is so incompetent on other issues and getting out the message that the Republicans are losing on that issue as well. It was also frustrating for Bush to allow the left to destroy support for the Iraq war and for months he let them get away with it and now it is being seen as a failure. This does a disservice to the troops who are working hard and dying to turn things around over there. I could go on and on but you know what I mean. Karl, I do agree that the only reason that we don’t have a massive amnesty going on right now in terms of illegal immigration is the right-wing hard core like us who have been raising hell on the issue so I guess that is something. Tancredo in 2008! | ||
K8cpachuck Member Username: K8cpachuck Post Number: 7 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 68.40.45.171 |
If Devos wins, I'm leaving michigan. NO MORE REPUBLICANS! Grrrr... | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 91 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
K8cpachuck, Well, as you can see I am not an apologist for the Republican party, but can you list any real benefits that the city of Detroit has gotten out of decades of Democrat rule? Everybody needs an opposition party to keep them honest, the fact is that Detroit doesn't really have this, you have the choice for voting either for a Democrat who hates the suburbs or another Democrat who hates them more! | ||
Haydenth Member Username: Haydenth Post Number: 50 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 68.73.193.34 |
Right, just like all those people who said they were going to leave the country if Bush won in 2004. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2480 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
K8cpachuck - Haydenth beat me to it - if Devos wins, you ain't goin' anywhere and ya know it. Your ilk promised to leave if Bush was elected, and a whole bunch of us worked real hard to make sure he won just so you'd haul your sorry rears to Cuba, or perhaps you were headed to Iraq to fight for Sadaam's boys? Whatever, ya fooled us and hung around - probably on some govt entitlement program that was too good to miss so ya stayed. Get to work - the rest of us are tired of carryin' ya and your failed programs. PerfectG - Hang in there, it's not over til it's over. Remember, the MSM is loathe to say anything good about Bush, his programs, the war, etc. Yes, he's messed up, but there's plenty of good going on that is ignored. The leftie libs are so busy with new nonsense the right talk/tv shows can't devote but a minute here or there to tell the good stuff - but it's there. When was the last time that you heard that the money is gushing into the Fed at record rates, thanks to the tax cuts? Seldom if ever. Only the spending gets attention - negative - because the GOP is in charge. Some of these new ideas (like having the name of the individual responsible for a certain spending item attached to the item) are starting to get traction, and combined with the internet promises to be a deadly enemy of wild spending. Another idea is to put the entire budget of every govt entity online - line by line. As someone said, nothing like a couple million insomniac eyeballs studying that stuff at 3am - and there are folks who love that stuff if we could just get it to 'em. You can run but ya can't hide! These are fascinating times, and we're just entering an era where govt is becoming more transparent, easier to track, and accountability increasing. One thing I find almost riveting is the Dems refusal to concede that voting is important enough to have to show picture ID. I believe voter fraud has been rampant for many years, and making folks prove they are who they are (as they have to do everywhere else and is never a big deal except for voting. I like to ask folks if someone else is using their credit card do they hope the clerk asks for ID? Then I ask why they don't feel the same about the one vote they have to cast? Duh. I've noticed another shift - folks like James Dobson used to be adamant about pro-life candidates toeing the line on every aspect - but he's realized that you can't have everything all at once. The right has made quantum leaps with the Supremes and of course Congress & White House. Perhaps there will be an "adjustment" this fall, but any setback will be regained as folks realize far left nonsense is getting the country (and individuals) nowhere. Talking to folks about the most simple concepts in govt often helps (it is your money, folks like you are the govt, etc) and to ring those phones and clog those emails - not the "everyone send 100" silliness, but eye-to-eye stuff, or emails that are well written. They are read, counted, and paid attention to. Again, hang in there and keep tellin' the story - including reading the riot act to our elected officials. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 92 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
Well, I think the result of the 2006 and 2008 elections will bring some heartache to Republicans, hopefully just enough to make them realize who elected them and what they are there to do. I think the notion of publishing the details of the spending bills online is a great one, the blogs and the pundits would be all over that. I personally think 90% of all pork spending should be abolished, except for maybe some infrastructure stuff that relates to the national interest. Entitlement programs need to be scaled back as well, even though I know it will hurt me personally when I retire... (Message edited by perfectgentleman on May 20, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3766 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
The Michigan GOP doesn't deserve another governorship. They had Engler, who did little to head off the disaster we've been in since the 80's. They've controlled the Michigan congress, and Supreme Court, and what do they have to show for it? Granholm isn't the problem as she has absolutely no wiggle room and support, which makes it damn near impossible for her to do much of anything. It's not time to get rid of Granholm, it's time to get rid of the Republican status quo who've fiddled while Michigan has been buring since the 1990's. The Michigan GOP has shown itself to be unable to seriously address our many economic and social issues. They've been given their chance, and IMO, Granholm is definitely the lesser of two evils if there ever was one. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 93 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.227.26.9 |
Once again people hold politicians on the right accountable but those on the left are given a pass. Democrats have run the City of Detroit for decades and we have had Democratic senators and many congressman at the federal level for years and they have done nothing. What has Carl Levin done to help this state? Not much, but he pretty much seems to have a job for life. That is one difference between the left and the right. On the conservative side, we throw our bad apples under the bus and criticize them when they go wrong, people on the left defend their idiotic failed politicians to the end even when they deliver nothing. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2482 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Well, at least John Conyers is keeping busy getting back for Clinton - oops, I mean, impeaching President Bush. That'll sure help Michigan. |
